RA = Random Abuse

For good looks.

Everyone expects you to stomach irresponsible kids (14 years and <). RA = not-srs bsns/real-PvP-Arena.. hence, all the 'Oh, well, ur fault, go TA, get over it, You fail, your fault, control yourself despite everyone throwing stones at you, your fault, your fault/quit ranting, your fault, stfu, your fault, did I forget to mention 'your fault?' yet?, stfu newb, I don't play in RA si IDC, your fault, newb, your fault.. (see the obvious trend so far?) your fault.. etc.. RA is a PvP Arena and NEEDS attention! Just like HA, just like TA, just like GvG (which Anet PRIMARILY BASES SKILL-BALANCE OFF OF and cares oh-so-much about.. more than any other arena, hence the neglect). Does any other fellow RAer feel at all the same as me? Any differences? (Just my own viewpoint). Keep in mind that my point of view is reflective only of that which has already been stated on this thread. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong ofc.

Yeah, I've been banned 3 times for "verbal abuse". So now I have become one of those silent, non-talking guys that are boring as hell when I'm around people I don't know. It's annoying and it's lame but hey, I'd rather keep my account than let a 12 year old kid realize he blows at the game.

I have to say though, having to filter everything I say just to make sure I can't be /reported by a kid who is really asking for it has really ruined the game for me. We all know the huge ammount of players in GW that just cause grief, and having to sit back and tolerate it is one of the most frustrating things in this game. You can't even leave the game if they screw around, because that = dishonourable. The /report concept is great in theory. In practice, it is one of the most horrid systems in any of the games I play.



To be honest, I prefered the pre-reporting times, no matter how bad the problems were with it, it was always better than the system we have now.

The reporting system is stupid anyways!! I mean I USE!!! to report leechers all the time until I myself was temp bann. It does no good to report when your the only one doing it and noone else will it make it look like you are abusing the system when you are actually not. As far as RA I totally gave up on that immature area of GW

OMG I salute You! Wow, Chocobo you couldn't have put it any better. Good game! =)

I've never been banned because for the most part I can't think of any person worth my time to provoke me into getting myself banned. You'd literally have to pay me to give a damn about strangers who share a virtual world with me with virtual pixels.

Actually it's still fail, the reason you won was that the other team was EVEN more fail.

Solo monked 12 wins in RA with life sheath, had nothing to do with skill.

LMAO, the OP is too immature to control his nerdy rage then makes a thread calling the rest of the community immature for not tolerating his tantrums. Just stay out of RA till you grow up.

Thank you for starting this thread.

Random Arena is on the declined when I stop playing there, It is in the gutter now. Okay, so you caught me playing in Random Arena, I could only stand it for 2+ hours, while trying to fill up my Zaishen Menagerie a few days ago, the task turns tedious and boring, so I went to RA, then, .... unfortunately, events and happenings reminds me why I had left it in the first place.

In the 2+ hours that I have temporary return to RA, I did not speak one word, because you know what that would result into, a flame and report war. Even when I do not respond, I get abused. Beside the abuse, in the 2+ hours, every battle I enter is unsuccessful to get to the end of the battle in a sportsmen like fashion. At least 2, I said 2, players would /resign on entering the game and forces the other players to do so, (now you know where the abuse comes from even when I do not respond) because I refuse to /resign.

I proposed this once again:
NON-CONSECUTIVE 5 WINS gets one gladiator points, if you get consecutive 5 wins, meaning without a lost battle in between 5 battle that you have entered and won consecutively, and not 5 consecutive battle with the same players, then you get the bonus as if you were in a streak wins (like what we have now).

When I say non-consecutive, it means that every player is return to the Waiting Area/Random Arena Island after every battle regardless if they win or loose.

Reasoning behind this:
When non-consecutive 5 wins is achieve, We reduce the needs of players ever having to talk to another players in the short one time battle - hence less verbal abuse. We reduce the needs for players to use the /resign command to try to get into a "good" group as according to their own standard. If its a one time battle, you better play it to the best of your ability or you will be spending time entering battle the whole day without ever playing one game, (that's what happen during my 2+ hours, players kept /resigning, I've thus wasted my 2+ hours clicking enter battle only to get verbal abuse and returning to the Random Arena Waiting Island).

Other possible changes if the above is not to be:
1) Limit the use of /resign to once every 10 battle.
2) Ramdonmising the Random Arena, If we win the battle, we get to the next map/battle as we do now, BUT you get group up with another 3 new players (who have also won battle) other then the one you have now. So that we still get consecutive wins only with different players.
3) Impose a Penalty in the form of deduction from Gladiator Title Track, for instant 10 gladiator points if you verbally abuse another player in the game. or etc, as Arena Net sees fit.

Imposing a restriction, limitation and penalty is a good way to curb the population bad behaviour since we won't do it ourselves.

See this is exactly what I was talking about in my post. You can't reply to what people say, no matter how stupidly irritating it is because they just /report you for disagreeing with them.

The very fact that you think you need to MATURE TO GO INTO RA is the biggest /palmface ever. Have you ever been to RA? Because if your looking for maturity, thats not where I would be looking. Also the huge irony of insulting someone asking for a dicussion on an obvious problem is a pretty big sign of immaturity is kinda funny.

I post in pretty much every /report thread there is, I have many ideas that I would love to see used instead of this function but the fact that it takes a huge workload of Anet who is already understaffed means it's pretty safe to say that it's going to be around for a long time.

Ummm, no. You get banned for swearing not disagreeing or thrash talking. You are constantly banned because you constantly swear. Its that simple. Your right to swear doesn't extend to all chat. And if you actually played the game it doesn't take another player to /report. I have been in RA and HA seen profanity aimed at someone in all chat and seen the person disconnected and banned immediately.

Uh, lol? It's been a commonly reported problem, you can /report for anything and people get banned. IIRC it was this forum where a person and his friend tried reporting each other for nothing, and one of them got banned.

Also lol, there is no proof of this insta ban and I'm pretty sure you can't give it so I don't really believe it. And how can you tell if someone /reported them or not?

Its a matter of context. Random swearing doesn't trigger it, but say you call your opponent a b**** in all chat while in an arena there is a good chance you are gone.

Once again, proof? Theres a filter in place that can sort out casual swearing and targeting swearing? And it insta bans you? I don't think so.

Why don't you be honest and tell us what you were saying when you got banned those three times? I know for a fact it was over the top and not just some "kiddies" /reporting you because you "disagreed". But I can't prove it and I don't advise anyone who values their account to test it. Just something that I have observed in many hours of playing this game. You can take it or leave it.

If you're constantly being blasted in RA chances are it's because you're a bad player. People in RA are very quick to criticize you, and if you can't handle it don't bother going there.

Actually, the part in bold happens more than you think. Sure, we all lose our tempers, but what's the chat filter for?! I understand if a person goes too far sometimes with their talk, but if the person banned was a victim of instigated and spitefully evil intent of getting back at him/her by automated banning on purpose? Do two wrongs make a right? Does entrusting a 14 year old (or less) bear anything fruitful? No. It creates what we all see in RA at this very moment: A Bitter, sour stage where abuse unfolds on a constant basis. And ya'll vouch for this crap?! WHY?! Why do ya'll vouch for this sour ambiance?!

Another highlight I'd like to point out while I'm at it: What was the original intent of the /report and D-Hex systems?

/report - control verbal abuse (with automated bannings?!.. SCREAMS abuse!)

D-Hex - Control prematurely mapping out to prevent unfair matches (players still map out, or just suicide, grieve, deny resigning, etc.. etc.. *WORSE THAN BEFORE NOW*; granted, players now get a little kick-back by getting back at them with the D-Hex/report system.. only out of malice..? nothing good out of it).

What's come out of these systems?

Uninstallations, discontinuations of gaming and a highly possible loss of interest in investing in GW2 (which they work so hard on that they completely neglect GW1 for). I know I've already had over half of my friends quit as a result of these defammatory updates.

So, what say you all to that?

They hate me because I refuse to roll around in the mud of 'loss' with them.. that's why. Because they roll inferior builds (many times on purpose *called grieving*) or deny resign knowing FULL-WELL that the match is lost. Even if the match is won, without a monk?! You won't last! And they /report me, make snide comments at me and loathe me via /report-abuse for what reasons now?

Sounds to me like they have no common sense whatsoever! They're the same ones that bring low-damage skills/heals but FAIL to bring: deep wound, interrupts, kd's, disabling spells, etc.. (the sh!t that WINS). Am I wrong for not rolling around in the mud with them to make them happy campers?! Don't tell me to go TA either. TA's being DOMINATED with lame E/Me x2-3 and Me/Any + Mo/Any (WoH) + N/Any (LC) and is just too much trouble to go through for gladiator points. It's much quicker in RA for that (even VS syncers!). TA is EMPTY. Go look for yourself. There's a reason why things ARE the way they ARE. I wish players had the common sense to detect that.

Random Arenas needs ATTENTION from Anet (is the msg I'm trying to convey).

Interesting, I wasn't aware that I had met you before and you knew all the situations that have come up concerning me? Everything you say has no proof, and considering this is a discussion I'd like to have a balance of opinions and facts. I don't really feel I have to discuss my reasons for banning with you, but I have actually created a topic in the past about my bans and trying to fix the problem with the /report system. This topic isn't about that so I'm not really going to get into detail about it.

So this chat instaban, it only exists in all chat? Because I talk in adult language with mature friends who I know and some of the stuff we say isn't exactly PC and hasn't resulted in some insta ban. Anyways have you got any proof to this instaban chat filter, or anything else you bring up? I'd like to know more about it.

I believe it's the act of someone reporting you for 'verbal abuse' that simply triggers the err=### and automatedly kicks and temp-bans you for a duration scaling on your history of violations (auto-pilot action). I precieve that it may require detecting/comparing your 'bad' words off a master list of some sort that they (the Dev's) have.. and if a certain quantity is reached in a given amount of time, you get banned (this is assuming in good faith that the Dev's even care enough to be the least bit fair about these automated bannings).

In conclusion, I don't roll in the mud with anyone, I get reported/d-hexed, curse about it, get reported maliciously again & again & again & again & again only in an attempt to get me banned; I get banned (because it's automated.. or in 'auto-pilot'.. no developer's review or interaction), they laugh heartily, continue entering RA to abuse the rest as much as possible, etc.. [rinse/repeat]

Many of my friends quit RA and the game in lieu of this, as well as crummy updates and GvG-oriented nerfs. I know; they TOLD me before they left.. So anyone jumping to conclusions are only putting hollow words in my mouth, disregarding facts.

I'm not saying that people don't abuse the system, but what I am saying is that leveling a boat load of profanity at someone then saying you were baited and its not your fault is no excuse.

I'm not going to minimize other players by assuming they are 14 just because they are beefing with me. That is a viewpoint that is very wrong. A person can be 50 and be rude and n00bish so why are you assuming they are <14? You are the one banned for inappropriate behavior not them.

I know there was a huge problem with leavers when there was no monk which is fixed and bots which is fixed. The crap going on in RA is minor compared to 2005-06. it could use a bit more tweaking but its way better.

In the end nothing excuses the fact that you are in RA swearing so bad you were banned. Nothing to blame but yourself, not the system or the kiddies just you.

Yeah, it's what people do in this situation.
My Guild Leader has pretty much quit the game, mostly due to the reporting system, but also due to the lack of updates. It's pretty sad since I feel obligated to stick with my Guild, but I'm really wanting to get into the GvG scene while it's still alive. So I always hope that maybe if enough people complain something will change.


Edit: Shadowspawn, you have no idea what you are talking about. Reports do nothing to stop bots, there are a fair few in RA and there are many elsewhere (JQ).

Also you don't seem to realize the problem. You are assuming that he is complaining for being banned for using profanities, which isn't the problem. The problem is people using /report as a means to get back at people who didn't deserve the punishment, simply because they know that no one checks the /reports. You don't necessairly even need to swear to get banned nowdays.

Games are meant to have fun with and enjoy, not BLAST EVERYONE and make gaming as MISERABLE as ****ing possible (good or bad conduct).

Additionally (back then), players used to map out simply because they knew that only certain skill configurations (or builds) were prime, and when players entered with less effective skills, weaker damage, less deep wound, kd, rupts, etc.. etc.. and compared them to that of their opposition (who often had the prime builds), they had REASON to because they have common sense and knowledge of all Guild Wars skills and their effectiveness.. or in other *lesser* words.. EXPERIENCE).

Part of competing is knowing your enemy as well as the skills and mechanics of the game you play. Anything less and you're frankly at a huge disadvantage! Unfair? Not if they're capable of learning the game!

RA is being raped by emotional children that use the /report system to lunge at every minor verbal infraction, or at every resigned individual (knowing FULL-WELL that they're at a HUGE disadvantage without a monk and/or against 1-3 monk teams). This needs to stop and I'm gathering the opinions of RAers on Guru to help assess the issue and hopefully draw the attention of the Live Team (whoever that one person or 'individual' is) to rectify this problem we all have in Random Arenas. Again, RA is an arena, just like TA, HB, HA, GvG, etc.. it's in need of care and attention all the same.

The OP and Chocobo were both banned multiple times for verbal abuse because they were raging. Sounds like the report system did its job.

OP justifies leaving in middle of a match for reasons such as poor teammates and the lack of a healer. Well, the dishonorable system was created so players like OP wouldn't leave in the middle of the game just because he didn't exactly receive an ideal set-up or experienced players. A portion of RA will always be occupied by players new to PvP or ones who simply want to test out their new builds - so-called 'inferior players muddling in their own loss.' No one expects to win with these guys, but most people learn to suck it up and try to adapt. Surely, it won't be necessary to explain what would happen if any player could freely exit out of any matches without consequences?

Also, although it is only lightly implied, sounds like OP does rage at other players for refusing to resign or organizing builds that aren't quite up to his standards. Report system is one of the few elements in Random Arenas (common courtesy being one of the others) that prevents the angrier participants from driving it to a complete shithole. I'm sorry, OP, but looks to me like you just want the report system gone so you can abuse the game in ways that are currently punishable.

Chocobo1, if the immature players in Guild Wars actually report you for just disagreeing with them, why did you mention having to avoid being offensive by filtering out your words before typing them? I think you might be theorizing on the part about uncalled-for-reporting.

Although all this sounds scary in theory, but I've personally never had any trouble with the reporting system in my share of RA and disputes with random people. I'm inclined to think the majority of the people having issues with the system are doing something disagreeable in general.

The problem is Anet views those words you use, to be used with ill-intent, regardless of the context you used them in, because that is how most adults think..even if they use these words. It's more or less the adults trying to shield themselves and others and children from words that are not meant to harm but since society has gotten so attached to labeling these "vulgar" words as evil, that's the way it is.

It's not going to change anytime soon, at least not with Anet. So like I said before, we have to bow down. Since these words are banned, and since the people overseeing these bans seem to think without logic and run like a machine, try using different words that have the same harmful meaning but are not banned (because we as a society seem to only use a small part of what we can when we think things up). That way you can insult the masses if you would like and not get banned for it because hell Anet doesn't know any better, they only see one list of words as being EVIL BAD. Rather than the intent behind the words.

Ugh, I meant in general. Casual swearing, although obviously not the best habbit, is something I do. I had to filter this out just to stay in this game. And sometimes that isn't enough. Maybe I didn't go into enough detail. I have witnessed people being reported for things such as suggesting to use a certain skill over another because what they are currently running is bad met by STFU NOOB REPORTED. This is what I want gone. Kids who abuse the system. If you are abusing someone without swearing, that is still verbal abuse and I can accept that people should get banned for that. It is hard to define what exactly verbal abuse qualifies as, but there are situations in which I am positive there was no need for a report and it has been used purely to harass another player.

I'll put all my cards on the table just for you, poasoids.

1.) Do I rage if players don't roll effective builds?

YES (EVERYONE on the grind for gladiator titles goes to RA for acquisition; seldom TA (it's usually near-empty.. those that do roll E/Me Mindblast+Distortion x2-3 and LC Nec/Monk for OP'dness.. *LAME*)[Are we to bow down to those that can care less about 'competing' just because they want to be bad? I don't know about you, but RA's there to earn gladiator points and balth. faction *by WINNING/{not} LOSING*]

2.) Do I rush in to suicide, hence incurring the same outcome as that of 'mapping out' (which the dishonor hex was 'supposed' to counter by forcing us to roll in the same mud along with everybody else and LOSE horribadly)?

YES (Because it proves that the Dishonor System's flawed and fails to achieve it's goal.. Anet cannot control the player.. and if they kicked every single player that did this, GWars would be one very desolate place).

3.) Do I deny resigning?

YES (to give those that once cried for this update to get here 'quickly' a taste of their own medicine now that those very same people are currently complaining over why no one's resigning.. call it Karma if you will..)

4.) Do I curse at people?

YES (but only if they insult me, run deliberately inferior builds for the sake of grieving, report me falsely and mercilessly to get me temp-banned/kicked out, etc..)

So YES, you're quite accurate about my OP. I DO have alot of anger bottled up inside because of this abuse, which is why I come here to expose it, call it out and draw the attention of the Developer in charge of GW1 in hopes of getting this abuse extinguished once and for ALL!

Well Regulus to be fair, a lot of the builds I run in RA are made up from my own mind (or so I think, I don't look at anything to make them at least), I go to RA because it's the easiest way to test against real people to see if it actually works. You get in fast, the battle is fast and the situation you are in is setup for just that. I don't go in there with a bad build on purpose just to make the team fail. I think a lot of other RAers are like that as well.

But what I can see you arguing about is making RA a more elitist place and to exclude others. Which just isn't what it's used for. That's what TA/HA and GvG is used for. You lose, you go back in. I've lost a lot in a row due to me getting a bad matchup, that's the way RA goes, you can't really QQ about it. If you unleash that rage in an offensive manner with ill intent then you're bound to get banned, it's not anyone else's fault. I don't rage at people because I know what will happen.

If you want to play Guild Wars you have to put on the leash and submit man.


Also Chocobo there is nothing wrong with casually saying words, society has just deemed those words inappropriate because of past intent. Anet just follows suit because they have to.

This thread got a little sidetracked, or I got a little sidetracked while trying to press my views <_<;. And ae, I have long since accepted that I can't say what I want to say and I'm fine with it, it's just annoying that even after changing my own habits that I still get reported for things that should not be reportable.

Odd, I use a lot of profanity ingame but have never been banned. Maybe it's because I don't direct them at anyone in particular. Sometimes if I get irritated enough I yell at the PC; I know better than to type insults in chat. Besides, why say "f--- you f-----" when there are many more creative ways to respond? (cue:WITHOUT vulgarity) Don't be the baited, be the baiter!

Because your intent is still the same, many people don't report because of that but I'm sure Anet would ban because of that, at least that's what it says in their EULA. But probably not, who knows. Vulgar words are the evil (even though they aren't any more effective than saying a different, more creative word) so yeah, don't use them. You'll make babies cry everywhere and cause global warming and make world hunger a worse thing.

Haha probably... sometimes I'll say things like "Oh s--- we're f---ed" or "s.o.b. leechers" but I won't insult specific people. That's just an invitation to get banned. Also, I make it a point never to use vulgarities in an altercation. When you have to resort to swearing you've already lost the argument...so just don't, nomatter how annoying the other person is. Or even better, set your status to DnD or Offline. That's what I usually do when pvping.

4 years playing gw , and never reported , because I didn't curse someone or whatever.

The only time that I had a bad moment , was when last month I bought a new account (complete edition of gw) and started a Warrior for pvp , of course , I didn't have other elite skill than "Charge" , so to avoid being confuse with a bot I was always saying hello and talking to the party , but I got blamed and cursed for bringing "charge" hahaha, when I got enough points then I bought another elite.

Other than that , never got a issue.

Arena Net >>> NON-CONSECUTIVE 5 WINS = 1 gladiator points. Penalty, problem solve

If some people reports for leeching when it is not true it may be an issue. For example, a Synch team getting rid of possible annoyances to get always teams of 4, by reporting for leeching anyone that gets into their team when they are 2 or 3.
Yeah, that the kind of issue to address and fix, like syncing itself.
Those things are bad.

But cursing? You are asking not to get reported when you curse? Come on!! :
If you curse, you are the only one at fault for that, even if you suffer from Tourette syndrome. You want to become something like that 'Der Echte Gangster' (A.K.A mad german kid) character that fat german self-proclaimed actor played on Youtube and many people think it was the guy being himself? No·you·don't.
Like there are places in real life where you can curse (in a bar with friends) and places where you are not supposed to do so (at church, during class, many kinds of workplaces...) there are places on the Internet where you can curse, and places where you can't.
A game with rules against inappropriate language is one of the places where you can't curse.
And you are basically saying that others make you curse. That's not true. No one makes you curse. YOU curse, and people take that chance to report you so you get banned, period.

Have you ever seen a cat in front of a chained dog? Once they notice the dog is chained and can't get them, they will go as close as possible to stay there, calmly cleaning themselves while the dog keeps barking and barking until it gets hoarse.
In this case, you are the dog, you keep barking and barking, and that does nothing but harming you. You are going to stay chained until you become a calm cat.

Also, as I have already said many times, there are a lot of mild expressions you can perfectly and safely use, and if you don't know them, just watch some 60's American TV series, you'll get plenty of euphemisms to use in there.

Now go get yourself a curse jar or something and stop bothering people for something that is only your fault.

lol RA.

Korean districts have a similar problem. It's common courtesy to resign if your team doesn't get a monk/healer. Those who refuse to resign will often get reported for leeching. Reported for wanting to play the game! I've even seen people who d/c get reported for leeching...

Maybe A-net should implement a function which doesn't allow you to report a player who has been active at any time during the game i.e has moved/casted etc

pz

Huh? I'm pretty sure its called Random Arena for a reason or should it be renamed as LA (Lucky Arena) to knock some sense? You can't choose who you are paired with. Even you do have the monk, if your team's aggressors are incompetent, you still can't make past the round.

On topic I always find verbal abuse report redundant since you can either add the annoying prick to your ignore list or on your chat filter. The term "Verbal Abuse" is too vague to be defined accurately and people often mixed it up with swearing. It is silly when you chide somebody and get reported for verbal abuse.

On point!

Look everyone, I'm not saying I'm perfect because I'm actually the furthest thing from it, okay? Maybe I did bring it on myself by fighting fire with fire, but in most cases, the aggressor started off as a mouthy jerk who reports me for resigning, not facing two-monk teams (with NO MONK whatsoever), having vamp on *accident or not* etc... So, what's their intent?

i.e.: You're paired up with a:

W/Mo20 (spamming breeze, orison, etc..),
A/Any20 (with no Increased Attack Speed, Movement Speed, damage, etc.. and 1/2 a template of self-heals)
N20 (no secondary, spamming blood spells and Life/Siphon-Xfer til he/she drops)

You mapped in on your vampiric weapon (with intent on swapping back) and see no monk on your team. You resign after the counter, having seen your opposition of PnH/WoH Monk, W/E Shock Axe and E/Me Mindblast (Distortionist).

///////reported

At this point, I for one know with 100% certainty that we lost this match up. W/Mo on the other hand.. thinks we can win! So does the N20! and the sin just wants to spammy spam his self-heals til he's dropped like a bad habit.

Should ANY player (not just about "me me me" like some people, who seem to percieve this thread as just my personal Qq..) be forced to waste time in many, many matches with similar circumstances, dieing over and over and over and over and over and.. (you get the point)... Basically, being forced to roll in the mud with these losers.

Why give the wicked and maliciously childish part of the community what they want?! (the ability to abuse others via wasting other player's time, denying them resign (or escape), manipulating them in any way, shape or form they see fit *like a puppet*..) It's kind of like when a little 3 year old crys and rolls on the floor, beating the ground repeatedly until his mommy/daddy buy him that candy bar he wanted.. and hence, giving them their way.. every time!

Doesn't the above strike you as worse than getting angry and cursing at the aggressor?! Why does the chat filter and ignore list exist, then?! ffs?!

Stop complaining because you cannot act like a civilized person and refrain yourself from verbally abusing people in a game. Stop acting like a victim when you are displaying nothing more than bad sportsmanship and have to suffer punishment as a result.

You sound just as childish and immature as the people you are complaining about, exemplified by these ranting complaints. Not only do you verbally abuse people while in game, you continue to do so in this thread. You are verbally abusing people in a thread that is complaining about you getting punished for verbally abusing people...ironic? All your problems will be solved if you just refrain from typing and keep your thoughts and insults to yourself. Simple.

The point of DHC+report was to make RA more attractive for beginners. If pvpers could just enter RA, play with reasonably good teammates and with reasonably interesting random team builds, then less would accept the hassle that goes with setting up HA/TA/HvH teams and the higher level in RA would alienate your useless (as an ... on an elbow) blood sucking necro teammate, which is bad. Poor guy wants to play pvp, he should be able to do it somewheres.

Getting mad at people in RA for having bad builds is a lot like going to the slums and getting mad at people living there for being poor. It's just where they dwell.