PvE Mot du Jour - "FUN"! - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

22 May 2009 at 15:09 - 1

For those that do not worship the French for their Freedom Fries (

) - "Mot du Jour" means word of the day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Net

We recognize the fact that farming with Shadow Form-based builds can be really fun, so we have not resorted to breaking the ability to keep Shadow Form up permanently. However, we continue to be uncomfortable with the speed in which players are able to complete various popular farming runs.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arena..._December_2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Net

While Strength of Honor was too good in competitive play, PvE builds that focus on buffing up a single character can be a lot of fun. To offset its removal from viable competitive builds, we wanted to try making this a PvE-oriented skill.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arena...dates/20090521

But, but, but ... the new PwK isn't FUN!

But on a serious note - do you actually approve of conscious decisions to introduce concepts that are completely out of touch with everything else in the PvE game? And if so, why the selective "fun"? I mean, everyone knows that ritualists and paragons need a bit of a tune-up - so why not send a bit of "fun" their way?

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

22 May 2009 at 15:12 - 2

Loosing Is Fun!

(guess what game i play now)

EPO Bot

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Mo/N

22 May 2009 at 15:15 - 3

I have no problems with S&H being boosted for pve because i was already using it for drunken mastering in pugs. Now it only got better.

Ariena Najea

Silence and Motion

Join Date: Jul 2006

Buffalo NY

New Horizon [NH]

22 May 2009 at 15:19 - 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But on a serious note - do you actually approve of conscious decisions to introduce concepts that are completely out of touch with everything else in the PvE game? And if so, why the selective "fun"? I mean, everyone knows that ritualists and paragons need a bit of a tune-up - so why not send a bit of "fun" their way?

Now, I still say that Paragons are one of the most imbalanced classes for PvE. Their sheer ability to mitigate damage using an Imbagon build is unmatched, and they can pack some damage to boot. Ritualists continue to serve viable support rules, and are unique with their defensive Weapon Spells which are both powerful and non-removable by foes.

I was also rather caught off by the "fun" catch word in the Dev Update... it seems they've given up on "balancing" PvE, and are simply trying to provide more viable options for PvE players. While this is a positive thing for new PvE and veteran players alike, they are furthering the divide between PvE and PvP. They have said repeatedly there is no new content planned for Guild Wars, so aren't they crippling themselves by making a PvE to PvP change more difficult? PvP doesn't get old the same way PvE does. Sure, you get bored of it after a while, but the nice thing is that the meta changes, you can go into different formats, and that you never know exactly what you'll be playing against. I find it unlikely that players dissatisfied with Guild Wars will be interested in playing Guild Wars 2, and so I think something needs to be done about all of these PvE only changes. People will PvP for years, since Guild Wars has the best PvP of any MMO around, but the four year players won't be happy with PvE in a few years when GW2 is released, and they'll have moved on to other games.

EDIT: @Zwei - Dwarf Fortress is epic. I still can't seem to do anything right in it =P

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

22 May 2009 at 15:22 - 5

seriously, what is pve balancing?

BrettM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2008

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

22 May 2009 at 15:26 - 6

Poor, conflicted ANet.

Solution to problem 1: Make SF slower! Add a 50% movement speed penalty, like Obsidian Flesh. Then sins can perma SF without being able to clear popular farms at great speed, relieving ANet's discomfort.

(Of course, this would also remove the "fun" as the players see it, which is clearing popular farms at great speed.)

I can't wait to see what comes out of the new fun philosophy. If you're going to buff SoH for this reason, why not throw in some buffs to Judge's Insight, Balthazar's Aura and Spirit, and other monk buffs? Then throw some love to the rits by buffing weapon spells, and maybe give eles the ability to cast armor enchantments on other players. Let ranger pet shouts affect the whole party, while you're at it.

Now THAT would be fun! A true god-mode that only works if you have a mess of supporting players with you casting and shouting buffs. PuG, anyone?

Johny bravo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

[SoS]

N/

22 May 2009 at 15:26 - 7

You know what was fun.... pre-nerf Spirit bond, or solo 55 UW or...Oh wait I could go on forever about "fun" builds they nerfed.

Personally I don't care what they do. I will have fun regardless

Tullzinski

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Trying to stay out of Ryuk's Death Note

N/R

22 May 2009 at 15:27 - 8

I love playing my paragon! I type /dancenew and she has that cool confetti shooting out that rocks!

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

22 May 2009 at 15:52 - 9

There is no 'perma' for all professions.

They can't cut in half the Ursan Blessing while keeping Shadow Form whole.
At least Ursan Blessing worked better when in a team. Imbagons also work better the bigger the party is.
It's bad when kids lay alone. Change it so it requires full parties to work.

The more, the merrier. Playing alone is something for hermits and autistics with no Internet connection!

lilraceangel3

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2008

Western Mass

Passionate Kiss of the cats [Kiss]

W/N

22 May 2009 at 15:57 - 10

Umm..last time I checked "Fun" was relative. Epic HM failure =/= fun to me

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

22 May 2009 at 16:05 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

seriously, what is pve balancing?

I would say that PvE is balanced when each profession has a chance to play multiple builds to perform different roles that are on par with the abilities of other professions trying to play those same roles. Going hand-in-hand with that, each profession should have some build available to them that allows them to have fair consideration for inclusion into a group for anything they'd want to do in PvE.

Eragon Zarroc

Atra estern?? ono thelduin

Join Date: Jan 2008

Madness Incarnate

[Duo]

W/P

22 May 2009 at 16:06 - 12

are you a fun hater?! O_o

Ariena Najea

Silence and Motion

Join Date: Jul 2006

Buffalo NY

New Horizon [NH]

22 May 2009 at 16:18 - 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I would say that PvE is balanced when each profession has a chance to play multiple builds to perform different roles that are on par with the abilities of other professions trying to play those same roles. Going hand-in-hand with that, each profession should have some build available to them that allows them to have fair consideration for inclusion into a group for anything they'd want to do in PvE.

I disagree with the bolded part, but agree with your last statement. Every class has its own unique niche, that gives it a unique advantage. Assassins' Shadow Step capabilities allow them to quickly spike targets and retreat to safety. Paragons have many useful Shouts and Chants that can empower a party differently than the other Professions, such as Defensive Anthem versus PvE Aegis. While each niche should have many viable options, each class deserves its own specialty. The PvE only skills help to balance this out, by providing similar skills to Profession skills but at different costs. Consider Snow Storm, which is similar to Breath of Fire, and Ebon Escape, which is similar to Death's Retreat. Although these PvE only skills have more potential than the "base" skills, the limit of three per bar keeps them in order.

With this in mind, PvE does not need to be balanced in terms of Professions or individual Skills. PvE must be friendly to new players in early areas to preserve the learning curve, must be challenging to veteran players in later areas (see HM), and lastly must be accessible to all Professions. For that last note, I do not mean that every Profession should be PUG friendly, but rather, that there are no areas that any one or more Professions are significantly countered. For example, having an entire zone with exclusively Warrior foes spamming Protector's Defense is poor from a "balanced" standpoint, since martial attack classes are at a severe disadvantage with no options unique to their class to counter with. Areas, particularly in Prophecies, that cater to one elemental type are not unbalanced, for example versus Ice Elementals a Fire Elementalist is no more relatively powerful than a Warrior with a Fiery weapon.

Farming has its own problems, and should be as removed from possible from "PvE balancing".

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

22 May 2009 at 16:26 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Now, I still say that Paragons are one of the most imbalanced classes for PvE. Their sheer ability to mitigate damage using an Imbagon build is unmatched, and they can pack some damage to boot. Ritualists continue to serve viable support rules, and are unique with their defensive Weapon Spells which are both powerful and non-removable by foes.

Ritus have Splinter, AR, and a few resto options to fill up the remaining skill-slots on that bar.
Paras have the Imba build.

Monks have a useful Healing LINE, Protection LINE and now the Smiting LINE is getting buffed. It's a bit different when the whole class offers just enough skills to make a bar - compared to being able to create a bar out of every line.
That's not fun.

Mordakai

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Kyhlo

W/

22 May 2009 at 16:32 - 15

My warrior is still having "fun" with no perma builds. And I'm constantly trying new builds, always changing things around, because variety is fun.

If you can easily farm with no threat, no danger, no excitement, where is the "fun"?

Sure, you make money, but after you've bought all your nice toys, what do you do next?

Anet needs to plan for the long term: keeping people interested in Guild Wars for a few more years until GW2 comes out. How does keeping OP builds always viable accomplish that?

(This is not intended to be a flame / criticism of certain farm builds. I genuinely want to know).

Chicken Ftw

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

22 May 2009 at 16:50 - 16

^While I agree that playing obviously broken shit isn't fun, we're probably in the minority. A lot of people like everything to be easy mode, and will hide their laziness/incompetence behind excuses like "it allows casuals to experience places they couldn't reach without it", etc. So what? Get better. If you suck too badly to reach something without X broken skillbar, you don't deserve it.

(In before "I paid for just as much as you did for this so I automatically deserve all the content in it" or the like bs.)

As far as what I believe is the intent of thread - introducing more viable builds for more professions so you're not shoe-horned into playing something predetermined to be the one role for your class... I agree. Every profession needs multiple viable builds. There's almost always guaranteed to be a build or two that are superior to the rest though, and thus the only accepted ones in groups. Again, back to the easy mode argument.

Ariena Najea

Silence and Motion

Join Date: Jul 2006

Buffalo NY

New Horizon [NH]

22 May 2009 at 16:52 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upier

Ritus have Splinter, AR, and a few resto options to fill up the remaining skill-slots on that bar.
Paras have the Imba build.

Monks have a useful Healing LINE, Protection LINE and now the Smiting LINE is getting buffed. It's a bit different when the whole class offers just enough skills to make a bar - compared to being able to create a bar out of every line.
That's not fun.

I've always felt that there are a plethora of options that most people just don't explore, but that end up making powerful builds. For example, I ran a R/Mo build in Random Arenas about a month ago with the following setup:

Marks 11+1+1 | Exp 10+1 | Prot Prayers 10
Marksman's Wager
Sundering Attack
Penetrating Attack
Savage Shot
Lightning Reflexes
Spirit Bond
Life Bond
Res Siggy

Now, if I was another player looking at a Ranger casting Life Bond on the rest of the party, I'd probably be somewhat confused, and concerned about the team's potential. This build dominated most teams, and I easily had enough energy to keep Spirit Bond on priority targets, and function as a Turret. The point I'd like to make with this example, is that there are far more viable options than most people realize, and you need to experiment to find more.

As for Ritualist skills, I can name at least 20+ useful skills to have in PvE. Even without a secondary Profession, that is quite a few combinations. Paragons I will agree are more difficult, simple because they have fewer skills to play with. You'd be surprised though to see what they can do with their secondary, for example, we recently ran FoW where I was the only Monk, alongside 7 physicals with little preparation or synergy. Our Paragon player linebacked most of the time using a Sword, Coward, and Grapple. He used Command shouts such as Make Haste to allow me to escape melee attackers, Anthem of Envy to buff the other physicals, Hexbreaker Aria to help with Hex Removal, Go For The Eyes for energy management and buffing the other physicals, Anthem of Weariness to reduce damage taken from physical foes, and Signet of Return. Now, not one of those skills is on the typically Imbagon, and yet, he was far more useful in his role than if he had run an Imbagon. We have also had him run a similar build in Heroes' Ascent, and it worked beautifully.

As for Monk skill lines, I rarely run more than four skills of any line on my bar at once. Particularly in PvE, running hybrid builds is more effective than running a pure Healer or pure Protter. I also try and take advantage of my secondary for energy management, or sometimes to assist in a spike.

Bug John

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

22 May 2009 at 17:26 - 18

the only ones that should be allowed to complain about overpowered pve skills are the monsters that get slaughtered all the time in elite areas, I don't think it's fun for them

I think this game lost all its fun for the poor Thommis

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

22 May 2009 at 17:30 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Loosing Is Fun!

(guess what game i play now)

I'm going to guess it's not Scrabble...

HayesA

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Pennsylvania

E/

22 May 2009 at 17:41 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Loosing Is Fun!

(guess what game i play now)

wow?

i kid i kid.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

22 May 2009 at 17:50 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

I was also rather caught off by the "fun" catch word in the Dev Update... it seems they've given up on "balancing" PvE, and are simply trying to provide more viable options for PvE players. While this is a positive thing for new PvE and veteran players alike, they are furthering the divide between PvE and PvP. They have said repeatedly there is no new content planned for Guild Wars, so aren't they crippling themselves by making a PvE to PvP change more difficult? PvP doesn't get old the same way PvE does. Sure, you get bored of it after a while, but the nice thing is that the meta changes, you can go into different formats, and that you never know exactly what you'll be playing against. I find it unlikely that players dissatisfied with Guild Wars will be interested in playing Guild Wars 2, and so I think something needs to be done about all of these PvE only changes. People will PvP for years, since Guild Wars has the best PvP of any MMO around, but the four year players won't be happy with PvE in a few years when GW2 is released, and they'll have moved on to other games.

The point is, PvP and PvE are different. Monster skills, monster level, terrain, environment effects that only affect players, more deaths, more monsters than players in a team, etc. etc. If PvE is made to use PvP skills, then builds like discordway would be junk.

You can argue all day about this, but if PvE is suppose to be like PvP then monster fights should be regulated to not have the higher level, not have monster skills, environment effects should go away, and monsters should not have their higher hp and extra energy regen, etc.

It is about time they recognize that GW PvE as it is currently designed is different enough from PvP. Who would have half condition/hex duration automatically in PvP except for PvE bosses? That would be cheating in PvP context. PvE would be like ZaiShen challenge which is alot easier to farm than most places in DoA.

Ariena Najea

Silence and Motion

Join Date: Jul 2006

Buffalo NY

New Horizon [NH]

22 May 2009 at 18:10 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The point is, PvP is PvE are different. Monster skills, monster level, terrain, environment effects that only affect players, more deaths, more monsters than players in a team, etc. etc. If PvE is made to use PvP skills, then builds like discordway would be junk.

You can argue all day about this, but if PvE is suppose to be like PvP then monster fights should be regulated to not have the higher level, not have monster skills, environment effects should go away, and monsters should not have their higher hp and extra energy regen, etc.

It is about time they recognize that GW PvE as it is currently designed is different enough from PvP. Who would have half condition/hex duration automatically in PvP except for PvE bosses? That would be cheating in PvP context. PvE would be like ZaiShen challenge which is alot easier to farm than most places in DoA.

I'm not saying that the two aren't drastically different formats, or that PvE is only a stepping stone to PvP. My concern is that players interested in both PvE and PvP are going to have an even more difficult time adjusting if the skill divide between PvE and PvP gets worse. The changes between the skill splits need to be better thought out if ANet wants new players in PvP. Some skills were split with a good concept of keeping balance while remaining true to the skill in its previous format. Expert's Dexterity is a perfect example, and while it was over-nerfed for PvP, PvE players will be familiar with the skill and its function should they make the transition and try to use the same in PvP. An example of poor choice would be Aegis, which serves a drastically different role now in PvP. Even skills such as Fragility, which is now split to additionally effect adjacent foes in PvE, will make sense to incoming PvP players.

I'm not suggesting that PvE is altered in any way to become more like a fair and balanced PvP format. Some environmental effects actually make PvP more interesting, such as the lava in Burning Isle, the Miasma in the Meditation Isle and Random Arenas stage, and others. PvE should be different from PvP, and rigged monster and PvE-only skills should exist in order to promote varied gameplay in PvE. My argument is solely that the Skills divide should be minimized.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

22 May 2009 at 18:19 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

I'm not saying that the two aren't drastically different formats, or that PvE is only a stepping stone to PvP. My concern is that players interested in both PvE and PvP are going to have an even more difficult time adjusting if the skill divide between PvE and PvP gets worse. The changes between the skill splits need to be better thought out if ANet wants new players in PvP. Some skills were split with a good concept of keeping balance while remaining true to the skill in its previous format. Expert's Dexterity is a perfect example, and while it was over-nerfed for PvP, PvE players will be familiar with the skill and its function should they make the transition and try to use the same in PvP. An example of poor choice would be Aegis, which serves a drastically different role now in PvP. Even skills such as Fragility, which is now split to additionally effect adjacent foes in PvE, will make sense to incoming PvP players.

I'm not suggesting that PvE is altered in any way to become more like a fair and balanced PvP format. Some environmental effects actually make PvP more interesting, such as the lava in Burning Isle, the Miasma in the Meditation Isle and Random Arenas stage, and others. PvE should be different from PvP, and rigged monster and PvE-only skills should exist in order to promote varied gameplay in PvE. My argument is solely that the Skills divide should be minimized.

On the other hand, there are many PvEers who dont like PvE skills to be nerfed because of a solely PvP reason. Knowing that PvP and PvE are different should justify the fact that PvE needs its own version of skills. Many PvEers are not interested to PvP and rather stick on to high end PvE, ANet should understand and allow them to continue to enjoy PvE. I agree that PvE is NOT just a stepping stone into PvP, in many cases.

Take the soul reaping nerf for Spirits as an example, yes this is going to open a can of worms. That was being exploited by PvP teams but do you really think this should get nerfed for PvE also? There are many other cases where skills were nerfed for both PvE AND PvP for PvP-only reasons. Don't get me started on the mesmer skill nerfs in PvE, for PvP reasons.

If not for the skill divide, ANet would need even MORE PvE-only skills to avoid the complaints from PvEers like what happened to the SR nerf.

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

22 May 2009 at 18:35 - 24

The fun for me is filling my HoM :P

And PvP

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

22 May 2009 at 19:20 - 25

Fun is hunting antelopes with machine guns and jeeps.
Fun is being invincible.
Fun is a guaranteed win.

Something is wrong with fun. :P

Actually not with fun, but what ANet perceives to be fun. Sure, people love gimmicks.
But entirely classes being discriminated for being less useful while a one-trick pony mows through all areas is indeed sad.

Face it, those builds are not used for FUN, they are pure farming builds. Anyone who claims farming over and over is fun should whack his head against a wall.

Felixious

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2008

Sweden

W/

22 May 2009 at 20:58 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Fun is hunting antelopes with machine guns and jeeps.

Far Cry 2, 'nuff said.

Buster

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Elona

Clan Eternal Legion

D/W

22 May 2009 at 21:55 - 27

Not concerned about what gets balanced or not for GW1 because its been an ongoing process since day 1 and its still the same ole same ole situation. People should be more concerned about GW2 rather than rehashing ideas for GW1.

Jugalo Dano

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2006

N/Me

22 May 2009 at 22:12 - 28

I think anet's statement about SF is garbage just on the fact that there have been far too many farming runs/builds in the past that have been axed for anet to suddenly change it's policy. I used to have fun rune farming ettins, but that was stopped. Blowing up the incubi in Urgoz was fun, but that no longer works. Anet's just leaving it alone to try and hang onto players for as long as possible until gw2. The difference between sf and other farms though is sf can be used to farm almost anywhere, giving it even more reason to get fixed. I bet if bots start running vaettirs it'd get the hammer.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

22 May 2009 at 22:42 - 29

If you think about it, from the sales perspective, they can popularize certain campaigns by buffing certain campaign specific classes.

If they give Assassins such unique farming capabilities then people would have to buy Factions if they want to farm like that.

Apollo Smile

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2008

[LORE]

E/Mo

22 May 2009 at 23:07 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If you think about it, from the sales perspective, they can popularize certain campaigns by buffing certain campaign specific classes.

If they give Assassins such unique farming capabilities then people would have to buy Factions if they want to farm like that.

I think you are looking WAY too deeply into this.

Divine Ashes

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Chicago

LFG

R/

22 May 2009 at 23:18 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

I think you are looking WAY too deeply into this.

But he is also right... If you didn't have factions and wanted to farm and be uber rich, then of course you would go out and buy factions just for access to the Assassin class..

immortius

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Black Cats

E/Mo

22 May 2009 at 23:18 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Loosing Is Fun!

(guess what game i play now)

Dwarf Fortress.

Apollo Smile

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2008

[LORE]

E/Mo

22 May 2009 at 23:22 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divine Ashes

But he is also right... If you didn't have factions and wanted to farm and be uber rich, then of course you would go out and buy factions just for access to the Assassin class..

Because only assasins can farm, I get ya...

Professor K

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2009

Mo/A

22 May 2009 at 23:29 - 34

I'd rather they nerfstick ROJ really. Shadow form getting slammed wont stop Monks and ele from farmin. Farming will NEVER go away completely.

aapo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

22 May 2009 at 23:43 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Guild Wars has the best PvP of any MMO around

- The first thing that came to my mind after reading this was this poster:

I mean seriously, the coveted medal for best PvP in MMO genre? Who goes to buy (edit: NO MONTHLY FEES!!!!) MMO game and expects to find quality PvP?

Divine Ashes

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Chicago

LFG

R/

22 May 2009 at 23:55 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

Because only assasins can farm, I get ya...

I didn't say that only assassins can farm, nor did I suggest it. UWSC's are probably the current, best way to make a lot of money, and assassins are the main components.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

22 May 2009 at 23:58 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- The first thing that came to my mind after reading this was this poster:

I'd have to agree that this is indeed an accurate depiction of ANet's competition. I'd probably replace the trees with shit, though. WAR and WoW are both retarded CC fests with far more glaring imbalance issues than GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

I mean seriously, the coveted medal for best PvP in MMO genre? Who goes to buy (edit: NO MONTHLY FEES!!!!) MMO game and expects to find quality PvP?

Do you mean quality PvP can never exist in an MMO?

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

23 May 2009 at 00:06 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felixious

Far Cry 2, 'nuff said.

I was more thinking of some Sheiks.

Ariena Najea

Silence and Motion

Join Date: Jul 2006

Buffalo NY

New Horizon [NH]

23 May 2009 at 00:07 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- The first thing that came to my mind after reading this was this poster:

I mean seriously, the coveted medal for best PvP in MMO genre? Who goes to buy (edit: NO MONTHLY FEES!!!!) MMO game and expects to find quality PvP?

People pay for WoW (ever seen Blizzard's quarterly reports?), and their PvP is still lame, and even more horribly imbalanced than Guild Wars. Part of my point is that there is no real competition currently, but that may not last in the next few years. A dark-horse MMO could easily come along in the next three years with much more PvP content and drag away NCSoft's customers.

aapo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

23 May 2009 at 00:08 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Do you mean quality PvP can never exist in an MMO?

- MMO model sets handicaps needlessly. The genre is meant for those players who want progression and permanence in games, which is diametrically opposite to needs of interesting PvP: equality between players and ability to create modifiers game-by-game basis. Same character who is playing GvG is the same character who can complete quests and slay monsters. Needless to say this kind of approach severely limits possibilities how the game can develop. I'm not saying MMO PvP is impossible, just very unexpected. This is also reflected by amount of players in PvE vs. PvP in Guild Wars.