What Henches With Racway
AtomicMew
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Everything a MM does effectively can be easily fit on your bitch of choice. And gain a few slots and attribute points by not wasting it on Death.And once again, if you are running physicals and taking it slow - then you are doing it wrong. The only time I take it slow is when I've been massively overloaded with hexes and conditions and I need to take time to clean everything up. You contradict yourself in only a few sentences. A MM will absorb so many hexes/conditions that would otherwise bone over your team and slow it down to a crawl. No hex/condition removal is even close to capable of the mitigating power that a MM has.
Even still, a MM will ALWAYS out-DPS a single physical, so your argument that you don't take it slow with no MM is pretty backwards, considering the above and also that you're missing out on one of the biggest DPS sources in the game.
Kiluna
I don't know about other people, but racway have served me well. Only NF mission were it didn't work was Jennur's Horde - and that was only because the "only" tactic for it that i master well, is the rush to stairs -> kill the harbringer there, etc. etc. -> flag your heroes on the first bridge while you run lights to kill bonus harbringers and boss. No line of sight for paras, so used MM + 2 ele heroes instead.
And about hexes... When you know you're going heavy hex area, there ARE builds for those areas, in both, pvx and these forums (it's even sticky). 2x Epathic Removal and Hexbreaker Aria = no hex problems for your team.
Or in case you aren't sure, you can run the command para with the hexbuild, this will give you condition removal on skill use (from motigon) and empathic removal from comman para.
Anyway, the main hencies i use are NM: para, warrior, ele, monk HM: para, ele, monk, monk.
2 monk henchies in HM because to me the D/N doesn't count as healer. But rather as melee/adre booster with backup heals (mystic healing and vow of piety are too random to count on in thigh situations)
edit: that is on my imbagon.
Also i use mystic regen on D/N instead of dwayna's touch, which makes it require next to no healing from the healers...
And about hexes... When you know you're going heavy hex area, there ARE builds for those areas, in both, pvx and these forums (it's even sticky). 2x Epathic Removal and Hexbreaker Aria = no hex problems for your team.
Or in case you aren't sure, you can run the command para with the hexbuild, this will give you condition removal on skill use (from motigon) and empathic removal from comman para.
Anyway, the main hencies i use are NM: para, warrior, ele, monk HM: para, ele, monk, monk.
2 monk henchies in HM because to me the D/N doesn't count as healer. But rather as melee/adre booster with backup heals (mystic healing and vow of piety are too random to count on in thigh situations)
edit: that is on my imbagon.
Also i use mystic regen on D/N instead of dwayna's touch, which makes it require next to no healing from the healers...
The Riven
Xenomortis
MM with 10 fiends. Let's say he has OoU.
I honestly don't know a reasonable estimate for a fiends attack damage. Just been to the Isle of the Nameless, and they appear to do 15-45 damage (including crits) with an average between the 20-30 mark against AL60.
AL100 however, it's around 10-15 on average.
Let's go with the 100 armour enemy, that seems fairly average in HM.
With OoU, 15 damage will be boosted to 32, assuming constant coverage. (16 in DM obviously).
Under EbSoH (and this only works reliably with fiends, and even then...), that could be boosted to 40-47. Let's call it 45 (7 in Ebon rank).
That means, fiends will be doing around 45 damage a hit. Each fiend attacks 30 times in 58 seconds, if the wiki is to be believed. This is 1.933... seconds per attack.
45 / 1.933... = 23.27586207... DPS according to my calculator.
For 10 minions: ~233 DPS
Now, for a single buffed physical - I'm going to pick the assassin (best choice, as they have the chance for double strikes and are easily buffed).
Under a 33% IAS, an assassin will attack every 0.89 seconds - excluding double strikes.
Buffs are from: OoP/OotV @16, SoH (@10 or 12, mabye even 16), EBSoH and GDW.
OoP/OotV = 17 per hit
SoH = 18, 21 or 28 respectively (depends who's doing the buffing)
EBSoH = 13 (at rank 7)
GDW = 18 (at rank 7)
This sums up to 66 per hit. This comes to ~74 DPS.
The following is depending on their build and attack chain:
Let's say, Golden Fox -> Wild Strike -> DB -> MS -> DB -> MS (Death).
This has 2 Double Strike attacks and gives a total skill damage of 315 in 5.34 seconds.
This, on average, will deal 59 DPS. This may be higher depending on the attack chain used.
Assuming this attack cycle and the above buffs, we get a total damage 315 + 6x66 + 2x66 = 843 in 5.34 seconds = ~158 DPS.
I should note, at 16 Smiting for SoH, this comes to 923 in 5.43 seconds = ~170 DPS.
This is lower than the DPS from 10 minions (158 compared to 233).
If you disagree, pick apart my calculation and ammend my assumptions. I myself, am not concluded.
However, some notes:
A human physical (if they have any degree of competence) will attack a called target - a target the caller has decided that needs to die.
A MM has only small influence over what the minions attack. The minions may not decide to attack a target that needs killing right now. They may decide to attack a warrior rushing for your casters and totally ignore the enemy monks, or necros that exploit corpses.
If the excrement collides with the unsophisticated air conditioning system however, a physical setup is still more durable in my view. A human can be ressed much quicker than a MM army can be raised.
Besides, it's not as though the two are not incompatible.
On reflection... was it really worth my writing this up?
I honestly don't know a reasonable estimate for a fiends attack damage. Just been to the Isle of the Nameless, and they appear to do 15-45 damage (including crits) with an average between the 20-30 mark against AL60.
AL100 however, it's around 10-15 on average.
Let's go with the 100 armour enemy, that seems fairly average in HM.
With OoU, 15 damage will be boosted to 32, assuming constant coverage. (16 in DM obviously).
Under EbSoH (and this only works reliably with fiends, and even then...), that could be boosted to 40-47. Let's call it 45 (7 in Ebon rank).
That means, fiends will be doing around 45 damage a hit. Each fiend attacks 30 times in 58 seconds, if the wiki is to be believed. This is 1.933... seconds per attack.
45 / 1.933... = 23.27586207... DPS according to my calculator.
For 10 minions: ~233 DPS
Now, for a single buffed physical - I'm going to pick the assassin (best choice, as they have the chance for double strikes and are easily buffed).
Under a 33% IAS, an assassin will attack every 0.89 seconds - excluding double strikes.
Buffs are from: OoP/OotV @16, SoH (@10 or 12, mabye even 16), EBSoH and GDW.
OoP/OotV = 17 per hit
SoH = 18, 21 or 28 respectively (depends who's doing the buffing)
EBSoH = 13 (at rank 7)
GDW = 18 (at rank 7)
This sums up to 66 per hit. This comes to ~74 DPS.
The following is depending on their build and attack chain:
Let's say, Golden Fox -> Wild Strike -> DB -> MS -> DB -> MS (Death).
This has 2 Double Strike attacks and gives a total skill damage of 315 in 5.34 seconds.
This, on average, will deal 59 DPS. This may be higher depending on the attack chain used.
Assuming this attack cycle and the above buffs, we get a total damage 315 + 6x66 + 2x66 = 843 in 5.34 seconds = ~158 DPS.
I should note, at 16 Smiting for SoH, this comes to 923 in 5.43 seconds = ~170 DPS.
This is lower than the DPS from 10 minions (158 compared to 233).
If you disagree, pick apart my calculation and ammend my assumptions. I myself, am not concluded.
However, some notes:
A human physical (if they have any degree of competence) will attack a called target - a target the caller has decided that needs to die.
A MM has only small influence over what the minions attack. The minions may not decide to attack a target that needs killing right now. They may decide to attack a warrior rushing for your casters and totally ignore the enemy monks, or necros that exploit corpses.
If the excrement collides with the unsophisticated air conditioning system however, a physical setup is still more durable in my view. A human can be ressed much quicker than a MM army can be raised.
Besides, it's not as though the two are not incompatible.
On reflection... was it really worth my writing this up?
Carinae
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
This is lower than the DPS from 10 minions (158 compared to 233).
For the sin you didn't figure in Asura Scan or BUH. (one or the other)
So, 233 DPS unfocused (human max-buffed MM) or .... 158 DPS (plus Asura Scan) thats focused.
Quote: Originally Posted by traversc Not only that, but bone minions explode, doing massive AoE. Yes, yes, the fearsome Death Nova...
Quote: Originally Posted by traversc Factor in a death elite (discord, OoU) and there is just no contest. Don't you ever mention those skills in the same sentence again. OoU is so far beyond Discrap that it's insulting.
Quote: Originally Posted by traversc
Physical heroes cant compare, just no matter what build.
Yet more intellectual dishonesty. This time it's in the flavor of "bait-and-switch". You make grandiose claims about MM damage, clearly involving a human MM (10 fiends, OoU, EbSoH) and then reverse course and compare that to a melee HERO.
No, I didn't include Asura Scan or Ural's, though the recharge on Ural's makes it less... useful? applicable? I dunno.
I also didn't include the area of effect damage from Death Blossom.
However, the problem that you just pointed out (and has been pointed out before) is the fact that MM DPS is spread out and unfocused.
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Originally Posted by Daesu
It is not that difficult to focus fiends, unless you have lots of melee monsters coming in to distract them.
Which you usually do. It doesn't take much to distract them and a couple melee attackers will often do it. Especially when their first target is down.Quote:
10 Fiends is doable... just. I believe it to be undesirable though.No, I didn't include Asura Scan or Ural's, though the recharge on Ural's makes it less... useful? applicable? I dunno.
I also didn't include the area of effect damage from Death Blossom.
However, the problem that you just pointed out (and has been pointed out before) is the fact that MM DPS is spread out and unfocused.
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You can check it out if that is so in real combat situation by looking at the MoP numbers. Fiends seem to work quite well for targeting from some of these old screenshots:http://home1.gte.net/~res0iq2d/GW/MoP.jpg
http://home1.gte.net/~res0iq2d/GW/MoP2.jpg
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By the way, I find that fiends work better with MoP than physical characters because of this reason:
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I never mentioned EbSoH ANYWHERE on these forums for at least 5 months. l2r and stop your outright lying. Come on.
Originally Posted by Xeno
What? Even if you prime a target with MoP and cast AP on it later, that target is going to die pretty quickly - long before you get much milage out of MoP.
I dont use discord with MoP generally but I also dont like to use physical players with MoP because their damage is too high.
Fiends damage however, is low enough (without barbs), to get good MoP mileage from them. Carinae
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14 Dagger 13 CS Orders @ 13 Blood Strength of Honor @ 10 Smiting GDW @ Max EBSoH @ Max Asura Scan @ Max I could have done a bit better, I accidentally cast Crit Agility in mid battle, and could have done better on AS. That's ME ALONE, focused DPS. Oh, and traversc, yea, there was a nice long line of hits in the 150-250 damage range. Practically every hit was 100+ HP. AtomicMew
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Yet more intellectual dishonesty. This time it's in the flavor of "bait-and-switch". You make grandiose claims about MM damage, clearly involving a human MM (10 fiends, OoU, EbSoH) and then reverse course and compare that to a melee HERO.
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FYI:
14 Dagger
13 CS
Orders @ 13 Blood
Strength of Honor @ 10 Smiting
GDW @ Max
EBSoH @ Max
Asura Scan @ Max
I could have done a bit better, I accidentally cast Crit Agility in mid battle, and could have done better on AS.
That's ME ALONE, focused DPS.
Oh, and traversc, yea, there was a nice long line of hits in the 150-250 damage range. Practically every hit was 100+ HP. Wow, that proves exactly nothing.
Comparing a HERO minion mancer to a HUMAN sin + 3-4 other buffers, one of which needs to be HUMAN as well....
Wow. Just wow carinae. I seriously did not think your reasoning could get any worse.
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@Xeno:
your tests are entirely valid. They prove that a physical needs a ridiculous amount of buffs to even compare with a MM.
14 Dagger
13 CS
Orders @ 13 Blood
Strength of Honor @ 10 Smiting
GDW @ Max
EBSoH @ Max
Asura Scan @ Max
I could have done a bit better, I accidentally cast Crit Agility in mid battle, and could have done better on AS.
That's ME ALONE, focused DPS.
Oh, and traversc, yea, there was a nice long line of hits in the 150-250 damage range. Practically every hit was 100+ HP. Wow, that proves exactly nothing.
Comparing a HERO minion mancer to a HUMAN sin + 3-4 other buffers, one of which needs to be HUMAN as well....
Wow. Just wow carinae. I seriously did not think your reasoning could get any worse.
Edit:
@Xeno:
your tests are entirely valid. They prove that a physical needs a ridiculous amount of buffs to even compare with a MM.
Carinae
That's Human to human.
Mr Emu
Carinae
Oh, no, it was:
Me on Sin with max Asura
My Smiting-Orders hero on passive
Guildmate with max Vanguard and max Deldrimor. I could have run EBSoH on the Sin without problems, but it was easier to let him manage it.
I was the only one dealing damage. The Master of Damage result was all me.
It's a perfectly valid application of skills, pretty common phys buffer set.
Me on Sin with max Asura
My Smiting-Orders hero on passive
Guildmate with max Vanguard and max Deldrimor. I could have run EBSoH on the Sin without problems, but it was easier to let him manage it.
I was the only one dealing damage. The Master of Damage result was all me.
It's a perfectly valid application of skills, pretty common phys buffer set.
Carinae
I run that in actual combat. If I was trying to get max DPS out of it, I would have run 16 Blood and 16 Smiting.
The 'not alone' issue is ridiculous. The score is from me alone, you could have perfectly well interpreted that comment in that manner, and you still can. You chose to interpret it in the strictest sense possible, and you chose that interpretation because it favors your point.
The 'not alone' issue is ridiculous. The score is from me alone, you could have perfectly well interpreted that comment in that manner, and you still can. You chose to interpret it in the strictest sense possible, and you chose that interpretation because it favors your point.
Daesu
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
I run that in actual combat. If I was trying to get max DPS out of it, I would have run 16 Blood and 16 Smiting.
The 'not alone' issue is ridiculous. The score is from me alone, you could have perfectly well interpreted that comment in that manner, and you still can. You chose to interpret it in the strictest sense possible, and you chose that interpretation because it favors your point. Do you really think having a second human player buffing you with another PvE skill would make this a fair comparison? Besides, you can never be buffed with GDW in a H/H situation which is the standard baseline for comparing 3-heroes builds. You cant compare a H/H team that can only bring 3 PvE skills with a 3-heroes + 5 human team that can bring more than that and call that fair.
Furthermore, to get a higher damage number, I can always switch all my healing and protection skills for more damage, but that also wouldn't be a fair comparison. The best comparison is to just show your build in action and Giga has already started that by making a video of his trip to Vloxen HM using his 3 necro heroes build + 4 henchies. We are still waiting for someone to demonstrate the effectiveness of racway in said dungeon.
The 'not alone' issue is ridiculous. The score is from me alone, you could have perfectly well interpreted that comment in that manner, and you still can. You chose to interpret it in the strictest sense possible, and you chose that interpretation because it favors your point. Do you really think having a second human player buffing you with another PvE skill would make this a fair comparison? Besides, you can never be buffed with GDW in a H/H situation which is the standard baseline for comparing 3-heroes builds. You cant compare a H/H team that can only bring 3 PvE skills with a 3-heroes + 5 human team that can bring more than that and call that fair.
Furthermore, to get a higher damage number, I can always switch all my healing and protection skills for more damage, but that also wouldn't be a fair comparison. The best comparison is to just show your build in action and Giga has already started that by making a video of his trip to Vloxen HM using his 3 necro heroes build + 4 henchies. We are still waiting for someone to demonstrate the effectiveness of racway in said dungeon.
Carinae
I'm not comparing Racway, as I'm running a Sin not Paras, and my heroes aren't Rac's either. If you want to set rules to the comparison that's fine but they need to be clear cut from the get go. (If I had brought 5 humans, yea, it would be fair criticism but....)
H/H only?
2-man?
Actual combat build?
PvE skills?
Consumables?
My only real beef in this thread was traversc's grandiose claim that a MM outdamages ANY physical, a claim which several people scoffed at.
When I run number he says, I wrong, I'm a liar. When I post Master of Damage scores, it's irrelevant. Or he baits-and-switches and says "No, no I meant a human MM not a Discord hero MB" when he's coming from a post talking about Discord. And then demand I admit I'm wrong when he's posted nothing more than his opinion and a series of "Nu-uh".
I posted numbers, I posted MoD scores and builds. He's posted 'numbers' he pulled from thin air and are CLEARLY incorrect. He's posted no builds, no scores, and made no 'rules' about H/H-only or 2-man (He's discussed both) squads. He won't commit to anything. It's like I'm talking to an astrologer: "Thing will happen today for you".
H/H only?
2-man?
Actual combat build?
PvE skills?
Consumables?
My only real beef in this thread was traversc's grandiose claim that a MM outdamages ANY physical, a claim which several people scoffed at.
When I run number he says, I wrong, I'm a liar. When I post Master of Damage scores, it's irrelevant. Or he baits-and-switches and says "No, no I meant a human MM not a Discord hero MB" when he's coming from a post talking about Discord. And then demand I admit I'm wrong when he's posted nothing more than his opinion and a series of "Nu-uh".
I posted numbers, I posted MoD scores and builds. He's posted 'numbers' he pulled from thin air and are CLEARLY incorrect. He's posted no builds, no scores, and made no 'rules' about H/H-only or 2-man (He's discussed both) squads. He won't commit to anything. It's like I'm talking to an astrologer: "Thing will happen today for you".
upier
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Originally Posted by traversc
Even still, a MM will ALWAYS out-DPS a single physical, so your argument that you don't take it slow with no MM is pretty backwards, considering the above and also that you're missing out on one of the biggest DPS sources in the game.
And if they are doing damage they:
1. aren't absorbing hexes
2. the hexes they are absorbing aren't slowing them down, meaning they wouldn't slow down party members either
The hex overload I mentioned is going to be stuff like massive slowdown hexes, stuff that makes one miss and Soothing Images. That's what I want to remove before engaging into the next battle. Other than that ... meh.
How much time did you spend playing physicals? Because I really don't understand why anyone would take it slow when playing one.
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Quote: The hex overload I mentioned is going to be stuff like massive slowdown hexes, stuff that makes one miss and Soothing Images. That's what I want to remove before engaging into the next battle. Other than that ... meh. Good luck making your heroes target the right hex to be removed.
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They do not get removed. You are stuck with those. And, like I said, that's the thing that will slow you down because you want to clear that before going into the next battle.
How much time did you spend playing physicals? Because I really don't understand why anyone would take it slow when playing one.
Just cast Empathy, SS, and VoR on them. That should slow them down. Quote:
DN is pretty darn random.
It's not THAT uncommon for a full blast of minions to die miles away from any target. And if the minion dies - there goes your super dooper minion DPS. And of course - if you want minion DPS, you want Fiends. And Fiends won't explode in someone's face. You do both - your DPS drops, your bombing capabilities drop and the wall doesn't work as nicely. (Well not to mention that this guy probably won't excel at his bitch jobs due to his spamming of high cost skills. SR gives just relatively unlimited energy.) What I was trying to say is that hexes will slow down minions even more then they slow down the party (due to their stupid AI, they won't get cleaned, massively less hp and armour, ...). That means if the party would get slowed down - minions would get slowed down even greatly. And if the minions do not get slowed down - the party certainly doesn't get either. Now on the other hand - if the minions fail at attracting hexes - that means you still need as much cleaning abilities as you would WITHOUT minions. But, to bring that much cleaning when you are bringing minions does not make sense BECAUSE you are bringing minions in the place of those abilities. That's why I am arguing that minions do not really make sense. They provide benefits that aren't really needed and they don't provide the benefits when you need them the most. Quote: |
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Just cast Empathy, SS, and VoR on them. That should slow them down.
We are dealing with PvE - and the things that slow you down are the things that PvE foes cast on you. Not only are the things you listed uncommon - they are also just a bit of damage. Stuff like Soothing Images, Shadow Of Fear or Blurred Vision (or movement slowdowns when playing melee) - now that's going to be a bitch.
When it comes to damage hexes - you just attack through it.
When it comes to damage hexes - you just attack through it.
That doesn't make any sense at all. Most Fiend MM would also bring melee minions, especially if they intend to minion bomb. It is alot more common for melee minions to explode in the front lines and a hexed minion can still deal damage despite your claim.
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What I was trying to say is that hexes will slow down minions even more then they slow down the party (due to their stupid AI, they won't get cleaned, massively less hp and armour, ...).
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Quote: That means if the party would get slowed down - minions would get slowed down even greatly. And if the minions do not get slowed down - the party certainly doesn't get either. Maybe it is not an AoE hex or maybe only 1 minion get imagined burden but the others are ok?
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That's why I am arguing that minions do not really make sense. They provide benefits that aren't really needed and they don't provide the benefits when you need them the most.
And maybe they do make sense. Thanks for the exercise in refuting your "maybe this and that" argument. Quote:
I think I specifically mentioned a few times that the team is a physical heavy team that you'd add a necro (in this case a MM) to.
That is why I am so anti-minions. The wall comes from the physicals with their shiny armour. If on the other hand we are dealing with casters - then the wall makes sense. Quote: |