Protective Spirit (PvE)

I fail to see anywhere in my explanation of anything that I was trying to kill farming and improve PuGs.

Am i reading this wrong or are you saying wikiing a farm build and using it to get FoW armor in a week is something that requires skill? FoW armor is the most common skin in the game wile it was supposed to be rare once. I don't get why Anet allowed solo farm builds to exist for so long. They are totally against the spirit of the game.

No i havent , but you had ; you said :

"The point is indeed to get rid of 600/Smite, for two reasons:

- These teams have become farming/running giants, being able to clear nearly every dungeon, and a few high end areas.
- They're used as a base in the two fastest faction farms for each of the allegiance titles. Removing them would encourage players to go to the PvP arenas for these titles and hopefully stir up more competitive play there."

Those 2 skills you mention are used in .... a LITTLE more things than those 2 you mentioned. Your thread is some mix of
- "nah , i dont like fox terriers , lets kill ALL DOGS in the planet" and
- "I dont like that thing , so it should be nerfed"

When the reason comes after the "solution" it seems more like an excuse to me . Soz dude , maybe you think im wrong but im not changing my opinion

I don't feel that 600/smite or 55s need to be nerfed.

There is always going to be farming, and running, etc etc that someone isn't going to like.

/notsigned

I don't understand how your first analogy applies to this at all, but with saying that this is a nerf can only come from a person that would see these skills solely in the purpose of farming. Let me spell this out for you:

- Protective Spirit will be buffed for anyone that goes around in PvE with more than 485 health.
- Spirit Bond will be buffed for anyone that goes around in PvE with less than 606 health.
- The two can no longer be used in conjunction effectively to produce the same results as now, that being teams of two or three that can plow through high-end areas with relatively greater speed and ease.

I have no intentions of saying, "Hey, let's just get rid of farming and running altogether," because that's not realistic, and wouldn't be good for the game. However, I don't see it good for the game either when these elite areas are being finished with low time investment and/or little effort and the reason for that is all because of one or two skills.

Your suggestions don't actually imply that.
Spirit Bond currently triggers before any damage reduction is taken into account. Your suggestions include no change to that.

Really, all your suggestions definitly imply is that 55 monks will be destroyed.

It's clear that you want 600s gone, but 600s are not a unique or special problem.

There's a specific way the game is meant to be played? News to me.

I really don't know how people soloing harms the game or anyone else. If you're collecting a specific thing, would you rather go out with a full team and spend hours and hours trying to get it, or would you rather do it alone and have what you need in a fraction of the time?

(I say this as someone who doesn't do more than the most basic farming, btw, and doesn't have a 55 monk nor a permasin)

Also, I really doubt FoW is the most common armor skin in the game. Considering I only see someone with it a few times a week.

You are always going to have some type of gimmick for getting through something quickly.

Have you looked at PvP....ever? Gimmicks galore. Blood spike, death spike, ranger spike, and w/e else they are running these days.

UW speed clear, Fow Speed Clear, DOA Speed Clear, FFF, dungeon runs......blah blah blah.

Nerfing 55s and 600s will just have them come up with a new gimmick. It won't slow them down for more than a couple days at most.

So what's the point? If you're not against farming or running, then why suggest something that really isn't going to make a difference because they will just use something else to achieve the same goal?

For those of us that don't join the speed clears and the running, etc, but use the builds for some 'normal' (not hardcore) farming, how is that fair to us?

If you want the elite areas and dungeons non-runnable, or not gimmick-susceptible, why not ask to have those areas adjusted? Although honestly, you're never going to have an area that is completely gimmick proof. Just as Anet has never been able to successfully shut down the run from Beacons to Droks. It just won't happen.

Oh, you lucky, lucky person... I keep running into the Ninja Monk Army. You know, black FoW + Chaos Gloves + Mo Zing Mask.

This. Especially with things like Nicholas the Traveller around, which practically requires farming if you want the gifts. I don't see how someone permasin or 600/smite to grab 10 dessicated hydra claws or 10 margonite masks is really an issue to you. Like Ebony says, if the worry is about certain elite areas, it's a lot fairer to change the areas than shut down the build, because shutting down the build only means people will switch to another gimmick.

And frankly, I'd much much rather that gimmick be PS/SB than a PvE-only skill.

[QUOTE=Verene;4680689]There's a specific way the game is meant to be played? News to me.QUOTE]

Yeah. MULTI player. No class can beat the game on it's own, but the game cannot be won without it either. That was the original core concept for both PVE and PVP: Wanna win? Get a good party!

Well, i guess most of the game still requires that teamwork. So whatever.

600/Smite, 55, Permasins are just crap.

Stuff like this should have been removed the moment these builds were starting to get used. This is especially true for the original 55 HP Monk. They just did not get it, they introduced Spirit Bond and we got an even better farmer with the "600" Monk.

I doubt they will do much about it, but these builds are no longer just used for farming in a few specific areas or bosses, they work almost everywhere.


Lessons for GW2?

No more % health damage limiters or > % health heal spells. No permanent invincibility builds/skills. But also no more bosses or mobs that 2-shot players.

Heh! I've never actually seen that once in the game. FoW monks, yes. But generally the ones I see are female and lacking the ninja mask and glow-worm gloves :P

Solo-farming and running dungeons isn't going to beat the game for you. The majority of the game is still going to require you to party with others, whether H/H or actual people.

I see many people would like to nerf 600/smite due to the Mqsc and dsc. It is bad idea. They will find another build and another place to farm. What should be done? Increase rewards for pvp faction arenas (mostly AB), so they are competitive with fff.

Oh please no...no more fow monks w/glow gloves and ninja masks...I see them everywhere. Bleh. (And no, I'm not jealous. lol. I just think that armor is really, really ugly. No offense to those who have it. )

In the end, we're all at the mercy of Anet really. lol.

I can totally understand the annoyance of farm/running builds. But to nerf only one type of skill set/prof and not the others wouldnn't be very good. If they nerf solo/duo builds, they'd better nerf them all or none.

I do 55/600 or farm on another char sometimes to pass the time, if I'm just bored, or if I need some extra moola for some reason. I don't do it 24-7 like some people seem to (and I don't bring people with me the majority of the time. I just do it for myself.).

And after doing dungeons on so many chars it does get a bit monotonous, so it is nice to have an option to get a run.

But anyway, no matter what gets nerfed, people will always find another gimmick/way to do things. It's just the way things are.

[QUOTE=EPO Bot;4680708]This game hasnt really been multi player since heroes came.
Most of the game requires no teamwork at all just requires H/H.
Has nothing to do with server space, its lack of people, this suggestion however would not help this.
People MAY go do AB/JQ/FA but do you really want people that know nothing about them in there trying to get faction because they killed PS and sb.
^ this.
I get tired of people trying to dictate how the game should be played.

I run more dungeons with perma myself,
only ones I cant run in full are kath,ooze,ravens and HoS on sin.
the rest I can.

Nerf the farming builds? You really want people to whine that there is nothing left to do after they have beaten the games? I mean, look at how they whine now; it'd only get louder.

Ok, so permasin and 600 are bad because they work everywhere? Well team builds work everywhere, so should we just not play? The argument that these are bad because they work everywhere isn't very strong considering you can build a team and that works everywhere. There will always be gimmicks, its unavoidable.

No more bosses or mobs that 2-shot players? Have you heard the whining that the game is too easy? Did you see that they made hard mode harder because of this? Remove this and the whine shall erupt again. You simple cannot please all the people all the time.

However, there is a simple fix. If you don't like it....then don't use it. No one is telling you how you have to play. Well, they're trying to, doesn't mean you have to listen.

Some farms do take skill actually, especially if you want to farm uncommon areas and need to come up with your own build. Also who said anything about FoW armor? I don't have any fow armor (because I dont like how any of them look, but i do have the mats if i so wished to craft a few sets) and thats not why I farm. I farm mainly for the challenge and for the fun. You live in a game world where people SC stuff in hard mode based on OP skills (SHADOW FORM NOT PROT SPIRIT) but I like to farm as a challenge. I remember trying to completely clear perdition rock on my war back in prophecies, not because i wanted to make 9999 moneis but for the fun and challenge of it.

How dare you tell people "thats not in the spirit of the game". Whining on a forum about stuff that has no effect on you isn't in the spirit of the game.

So you want to take one of the only balanced skills in the game and break it due to an imbalanced game mechanic...

/no

This. (12 chars)

After reading what you said and thinking it over, it seems that Spirit Bond doesn't need a change to its functionality at all, but moreso to its mechanics. Change it look at the damage post-reduction, and it works out. I'll edit my first post in a bit to point that out.

Okay, so you're saying that we shouldn't have pushed to get Ursan nerfed because people would just come up with something else?

With the number of options you have open to you with each profession in regards to what they can farm and how they can farm it, as well as the rewards that exist in beating certain areas, or completing certain goals, I'm not going to lose sleep over someone's favorite solo build getting nerfed if the potential offset is elimination of overabused speed farms.

No point suggesting something that can't be done. Before you fire that back at me, I'll say that my suggestion and everything else brought up in regards to changing SF and other imbalanced skills/builds is more something that ANet has refused to do or is resisting doing for one or more reasons, but is still plenty feasible.

Collector items are not that rare and difficult to obtain, so please do not make it seem so. I am really quite blown away by how you got the impression that I'm trying to prevent people from farming those.

A fair argument, if it weren't for Spirit Bond having a PvP version, essentially making the one you're using in PvE similar to a PvE-only skill.

If you can come up with an efficient way of preventing botters and leechers from entering PvP arenas, I'll agree with you.

Ignoring a problem or setting yourself apart from it is not a solution. Please go back and find every historical moment in GW where ANet failed to address something as fast as it should have on one reason or another and left an awful mark on GW by the time they responded.

And yet killing DTSC and MQSC would, I think, only compound the problem. People are already unhappy because there are botters and leechers in AB/JQ/FA; if you killed the things that allowed this speed clear to happen, you'd just make things worse. Forcing people to enter a PvP arena because it's the best way to gain the faction they want isn't going to improve things, it'll just clog up wait times and make everyone complain about that - on top of the botters/leechers issue.

And I'm saying, if you're unhappy about 600/smite or permasin because of the areas they can clear and you change them because of that, well. Think about all the ways it's affecting the smaller areas.

But the functionality is the same. The only thing that's different is the recharge time. To me, that's vastly different from using things like "You Move Like A Dwarf!" or Pain Inverter.

I have not seen you make a constructive or insightful post on this subject for the whole thread. You should probably consider saying something of worth before you come on here and try to troll people.

I wouldn't be surprised either to prove that a vast majority of the playerbase wants to keep SF the way it is now. That doesn't make it any less of an issue or problem or any less reason to discuss dealing with it. The same thing happened with Ursan, and I feel the same goes for 600/Smite.

Again, PvP is not the only option for the title. There are other areas on both sides that can be vanquished, and replaying the missions to fill books is also still an option. Concerning wait times, I'm almost certain that's the result of one side having mountains more players entering the match than the other.

More relevant to the original statement that I was addressing, I don't think that PvP faction rewards in those arenas is an effective alternative to nerfing speed clears when botting and leeching is still a problem. You might be able to persuade more people to play, yes, but you'd be giving even more encouragement to botters and leechers to clog up the arenas.

By "smaller areas," I can only think you're talking about general missions or areas in the game. There is no real reason to worry about 600/Smite or permasins in those areas, because the bulk of them are just as easy to do with H/H.

I don't think you've ever played a 600 Tank. I encourage you to go do this some time and see if, on the initial aggro of a decently sized mob, you can mentally prevent yourself from activating Spirit Bond three seconds after it recharges and not die. If you aren't capable of pulling that off, my argument that your PvE version of the skill is no better than explicit PvE-only skills still stands.

Great Idea! Then I can find groups in hell's precipice with so many people just DYING to repeat a mission for no decent reward just for fun! Every mission would have 10 districts because those evil farmers and runners will stop farming/running. Don't worry, none of them will leave the game because the missions are just soooooo fun, I can repeat them at least 100 times and I still won't be bored. I mean just look at DoA, hundreds of balanced groups forming to rape low level monsters that are defenseless against even the most random of groups.

And just think of all the good things that'll happen to guild wars' PvP! FA and JQ would be filled with all these great players that were ex. farmers/runners, there would be constant epic battle featuring "VERY ACTIVE" and strategic players. There will be so many battles you'll miss the outposts.

... knew it'll be a matter of time before the Shadow Form whining gets spilled over to the 600/smite...

i dont see why you would want to kill the 600. i dont get why anyone would want to nerf any fatming builds for that matter.

it would drive these people to farm another way and it wouldnt take em to pvp you dreaming in that retrospect

That would happen even without reward buff is sc is nerfed.

More potential botters/leechers in factions-related pvp. That is another reason to keep --sc alive, now isn't it.

Find way to nerf 600/smite for dungeons/elite areas. keep rest.

Why bother nerfing something in PvE when PvP needs fixes more badly. If you balance PS like this you will just have people quitting GW because you remove a fun part of the game. It's not like any person can do these 600 farms (CoF excluded), you need to know your stuff (e.g. Kathandrax or Frostmaw). Either you want the community to shrink or you can't 600 yourself I'd say.

After reading so many posts AGAINST this, why do you still bother to post? You do know that practically everyone thinks your idea is REMOTELY decent right? Yes, I will agree that the botters and such are a problem. But I'm sure nerfing Prot Spirit won't help at all. It will diminish not just botters, but even people who 600 for real (IE as a human.

That's the thing. Very few people seem to think it is ACTUALLY a problem. Since all of your other logic is based on the premise that it is, if that premise is not accepted, the rest of it is similarly discarded.

Anet could kill 600/smite and SF just by adding some touch enchantment removals to elite areas and dungeons in the right locations without changing a skill. Or redo monster skills etc.

Better idea: make tanking impossible.

You do realize that the end affect would most likely be more AFK & Bots in FA & JQ? If someone wants to pay a 600/smite to vanq an area for them that is great, instead of trying to stop it, I would try to encourage it since ANET is doing nothing to reduce the number of AFK & Bots in FA & JQ.

/not signed

On the first point like Burst Cancel said: "Better idea: make tanking impossible."

On the PvP Arenas: I don't want those SC players there.
Please leave them in PvE.

I don't mind a functionality change to PS and SB, but not the ones you surgested. And I'm not sure the changes I'm thinking about (more tactical use instead of perma-protting) will help the average player.