Maintainable DPS - Which Profession Is Best?
AtomicMew
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In the Assassin Subforum, a discussion on whether or not damage buffs (Orders, GDW/other Weapon Spells, SoH, etc.) should be maintainable or not got sidetracked into a debate over which Profession is able to maintain the highest DPS.I've copied and/or moved all applicable posts from that discussion here so as not to sidetrack the other OP.
Please note, a few of the posts might seem off because I am trying to make sure that only comments made about the DPS debate get copied/moved here.
Tyrael Besides that, assassins are not the highest DPS characters in the game, believe it or not.
_Nihilist_
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Originally Posted by Jaigoda
If assassins aren't the highest DPS characters in the game, what are?
Warriors.
/12chars
/12chars
Lux Aeterna
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Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong
Warriors.
I just tested and got 85 dps with no damage buffs, sustained for 30 seconds out of 45.
Strength of honor, 12 smiting prayers, on a hero and it's 110.
Does the master of damage properly register vamp? I'm thinking that with 70 or so damage every hit, sundering would be better but sadly I don't own a sundering sword.
Strength of honor, 12 smiting prayers, on a hero and it's 110.
Does the master of damage properly register vamp? I'm thinking that with 70 or so damage every hit, sundering would be better but sadly I don't own a sundering sword.
Tenebrae
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Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong
Warriors.
Comparing spike sins damage with normal warriors or WE PvE warriors is not fair. If a sin makes a build to be ONLY DPS , outdamages the warrior by far. Its just that is better to spike for XXX damage , run and spike again 20 secs later ..... sins dont have enough armor/resistance to stay there hitting all the time.
Jaigoda
Tyrael, I think you don't quite understand assassins. If survivability is a problem, you bring Critical Defenses and wtfpwn anyway. Still, for the most part you can use Critical Agility (bringing your AL up to around 95, close to warrior AL), maybe with Prot Spirit thrown on if it's really bad, and survivability isn't a problem. I'm usually the last person to be dying in my H/H. Also, MS>DB easily pumps out like 110 DPS before including AoE, and you also get more of a benefit from buffs because of the 33% IAS and double strikes. I don't know of any warrior builds that do that, besides maybe WE scythe, and that's quite likely to be outstripped by Critscythe anyway (considering you do have a perma-IAS and high crits). Again, I don't see any evidence that warriors can do more damage than assassins.
Jaigoda
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Originally Posted by Jaigoda
Uhh, I would have to beg to differ. If assassins aren't the highest DPS characters in the game, what are? There are several Assassin builds that can singlehandedly kill a 500hp foe in a matter of seconds, without buffs.
See Assassin's Promise spikers. And as I said in the last post, MS>DB can easily do about 110 sustained DPS, with no outside buffs (and gaining more from buffs than a warrior, due to dual attacks).
Also, last time I checked warriors and dervishes were melees as well. And snares are gud too. And AP necros rely on physicals to deal damage, so it's difficult to use them as an example for DPS. Honestly, there are very few caster builds that can compete with melee in terms of DPS. Even echo SS is going to have a hard time camparing to a high-DPS melee.
Also, last time I checked warriors and dervishes were melees as well. And snares are gud too. And AP necros rely on physicals to deal damage, so it's difficult to use them as an example for DPS. Honestly, there are very few caster builds that can compete with melee in terms of DPS. Even echo SS is going to have a hard time camparing to a high-DPS melee.
_Nihilist_
I understand Assassins very well, Jaigoda, thank you.
There's a reason that my Assassin sits on my Character Selection Screen while my Warrior continues to be my main.
I know how powerful Assassins can be, I know how much fun it can be to insta-gib things, and I know how vulnerable they are to enchantment removal, the limitations of their combo chains, and the fact that they are squishy frontliners who are meant to get in, deal with a problem target, and get out.
At the moment, I have been without an internet connection that can handle GW, or else I'd be more than happy to find a way to work this out in-game with you so that the honest answer is known.
If an Assassin can output a higher maintainable DPS than a Warrior, then something is wrong with how ANet has balanced this game (what a shock), but if that is indeed the case, I shall happily eat my words with a nice pint of Guiness to wash them down!
The main problems that I see with Assassins and maintainable DPS:
1) They don't have the armor to maintain a presence on the frontline. ANet has "fixed" this in PvE with Critical Agility, but the whole point of having 8 skills is to utilize the best possible combinations of 8 skills, not the best possible combination of 7 skills and Critical Agility.
2) When using Daggers, the Assassin has low base damage and is locked into using chain combos. With the numerous skills to be used, the argument usually boils down to Golden Phoenix Strike (lead-skipping offhand) vs. Golden Fox Strike > Wild Strike. Why? Because players don't want to play the Assassin as a wait, get in, kill a priority target, get out role. They want to insta-gib everything. Daggers don't have a high enough base damage to facilitate this. Chain Combos (especially the longer recharging ones) don't facilitate this.
3) The most commonly brought up argument for Assassins on maintainable DPS is the use of Moebius Strike + Death Blossom. It doesn't always work. MS/DB depends on A) landing your lead and offhand (or your leadskip offhand, as the case may be) B) having additional enemies in range and C) Moebius landing when the target is below 50% max hp. Even then, 2 seconds to recharge both skills is ridiculously fast. But then, you are only discussing one combination of skills, and not all Assassins are going to carry MS/DB.
4) The same things that shut down Warriors, as melee, will shut down Assassins as melee - and there is more than enough melee-hate to shut down multiple melee in many of the Zones in the game - add in the fact that Assassins are dependent upon Enchantments to a much further extent than Warriors (you are less a good chunk of AL and all of your IAS if you lose Critical Agility, which is stapled to almost every single PvE Assassin bar), and you have even more ways that a 'Sin's DPS can be whittled away (or outright robbed).
This argument/discussion/comparison is going to take far more than a simple test at the Master of Damage (let's face it - he doesn't run, he doesn't anti-melee, he doesn't enchant-strip, etc.), it's going to take a massive amount of testing in-game all over Proph, Factions, NF, and EotN.
There's a reason that my Assassin sits on my Character Selection Screen while my Warrior continues to be my main.
I know how powerful Assassins can be, I know how much fun it can be to insta-gib things, and I know how vulnerable they are to enchantment removal, the limitations of their combo chains, and the fact that they are squishy frontliners who are meant to get in, deal with a problem target, and get out.
At the moment, I have been without an internet connection that can handle GW, or else I'd be more than happy to find a way to work this out in-game with you so that the honest answer is known.
If an Assassin can output a higher maintainable DPS than a Warrior, then something is wrong with how ANet has balanced this game (what a shock), but if that is indeed the case, I shall happily eat my words with a nice pint of Guiness to wash them down!
The main problems that I see with Assassins and maintainable DPS:
1) They don't have the armor to maintain a presence on the frontline. ANet has "fixed" this in PvE with Critical Agility, but the whole point of having 8 skills is to utilize the best possible combinations of 8 skills, not the best possible combination of 7 skills and Critical Agility.
2) When using Daggers, the Assassin has low base damage and is locked into using chain combos. With the numerous skills to be used, the argument usually boils down to Golden Phoenix Strike (lead-skipping offhand) vs. Golden Fox Strike > Wild Strike. Why? Because players don't want to play the Assassin as a wait, get in, kill a priority target, get out role. They want to insta-gib everything. Daggers don't have a high enough base damage to facilitate this. Chain Combos (especially the longer recharging ones) don't facilitate this.
3) The most commonly brought up argument for Assassins on maintainable DPS is the use of Moebius Strike + Death Blossom. It doesn't always work. MS/DB depends on A) landing your lead and offhand (or your leadskip offhand, as the case may be) B) having additional enemies in range and C) Moebius landing when the target is below 50% max hp. Even then, 2 seconds to recharge both skills is ridiculously fast. But then, you are only discussing one combination of skills, and not all Assassins are going to carry MS/DB.
4) The same things that shut down Warriors, as melee, will shut down Assassins as melee - and there is more than enough melee-hate to shut down multiple melee in many of the Zones in the game - add in the fact that Assassins are dependent upon Enchantments to a much further extent than Warriors (you are less a good chunk of AL and all of your IAS if you lose Critical Agility, which is stapled to almost every single PvE Assassin bar), and you have even more ways that a 'Sin's DPS can be whittled away (or outright robbed).
This argument/discussion/comparison is going to take far more than a simple test at the Master of Damage (let's face it - he doesn't run, he doesn't anti-melee, he doesn't enchant-strip, etc.), it's going to take a massive amount of testing in-game all over Proph, Factions, NF, and EotN.
Tenebrae
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Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong
This argument/discussion/comparison is going to take far more than a simple test at the Master of Damage (let's face it - he doesn't run, he doesn't anti-melee, he doesn't enchant-strip, etc.), it's going to take a massive amount of testing in-game all over Proph, Factions, NF, and EotN. We ( or at least so much of us ) understand PvE game mechanics very well , Tyrael , thank you.
Sorry to tell you something that you didnt consider but , DPS are 3 words that have a specific meaning. DPS is a TEST that can be done in any game and its the same :
- Dealing the most ( or regular ) damage you can to a SINGLE target in an specific amount of time.
- Dealing the most ( or regular ) damage you can to MULTIPLE targets in an specific amount of time.
AoE Damage Dealers cant be compared to Single target damage dealers ofc , that wont be fair but DPS is not :
- DPS you can make with an attacking foe
- DPS you can make when theres heavy ench removal
- DPS you can make when theres heavy anti-melee
- DPS you can make when a N with 15-16 curses casted Barbs on target
- ........ see my point ?
So when it comes to a character with buffs to increase damage , sorry to tell you but yes , it comes to the Simple test at Master of Damage because experiments and tests are done WITHOUT matters that can DIRECTLY affect the test. At the Master of Damage you have the SAME test conditions that anyone else unlike X area , X mode of the game or X place ( proph , fact , ect ).
So if you are going into FULL INGAME test then Necros and AoE Nukers can be as high as sins , warriors and hell , even win ( most of the times ). Concluding : DPS is just an acronym and doesnt imply all IG conditions. There are many profs that can deal bloody lots of damage per sec ( hey ! DPS ! ) when certain conditions are met ( even HB warriors ! ) but we need something that has the same conditions to EVERYONE to make a test , if not , comparisons are not fair .
PD: The fact that X prof dont do something so often doesnt mean it CANT .
Paul Dawg
Tyrael said maintainable DPS, not DPS.
We are know what DPS is mean.
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Originally Posted by Tenebrae
We are know what DPS is mean.
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Sorry to tell you something that you didnt consider but , DPS are 3 words that have an specific mean. DPS is a TEST that can be done in any game and its the same :
- Dealing the most ( or regular ) damage you can to a SINGLE target in an specific amount of time.
- Dealing the most ( or regular ) damage you can to MULTIPLE targets in an specific amount of time.
- Dealing the most ( or regular ) damage you can to a SINGLE target in an specific amount of time.
- Dealing the most ( or regular ) damage you can to MULTIPLE targets in an specific amount of time.
Jaigoda
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Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong
Quote: Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong
If an Assassin can output a higher maintainable DPS than a Warrior, then something is wrong with how ANet has balanced this game (what a shock), but if that is indeed the case, I shall happily eat my words with a nice pint of Guiness to wash them down!
IMO, Assassin's should be able to do more damage than warriors in PvE. They are admittedly more vulnerable to interupts and enchantment removal, and they do have lower armor. If they don't have more damage, then warriors would completely eclipse Assassins as a profession, as they were until Nightfall came out and they could rely on PvE skills.Quote: Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong
1) They don't have the armor to maintain a presence on the frontline. ANet has "fixed" this in PvE with Critical Agility, but the whole point of having 8 skills is to utilize the best possible combinations of 8 skills, not the best possible combination of 7 skills and Critical Agility.
Warriors bring an IAS pretty religiously as well, and they also have several skills that see use on most every bar. It's just that CA is so damn good for 'Sins that there's no point arguing about assassins without including it. It would be like saying warriors are a combination of 7 skills and Flail. Quote: Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong
2) When using Daggers, the Assassin has low base damage and is locked into using chain combos. With the numerous skills to be used, the argument usually boils down to Golden Phoenix Strike (lead-skipping offhand) vs. Golden Fox Strike > Wild Strike. Why? Because players don't want to play the Assassin as a wait, get in, kill a priority target, get out role. They want to insta-gib everything. Daggers don't have a high enough base damage to facilitate this. Chain Combos (especially the longer recharging ones) don't facilitate this.
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Longer recharging skills are rarely used by 'Sins, and the two most popular builds (critscythe and MS>DB) focus on spamming high-damage, short-recharging attack skills. This means they can do crazy hella damage (imagine an AoE Dragon Slash to get the idea) without relying as much on spike-type chains. Also, GFS+WS recharges in 4 seconds, meaning it's easy to switch targets even if MS's recharge doesn't trigger.Quote:
This shows that you didnt understand a word i said because i am NOT claiming NOTHING to be an ABSOLUTE TRUTH . Unlike others that drops sentences like "X is not that" or "X have higher DPS than Y (always)"
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Whether or not the "test" "counts" was never in dispute. I already outlined how and when it is useful, and you pretty much said the exact same I already did (that it's useful in comparing similar builds.
Well it was, you said "that is 100% BS" like nothing that i said was true , those were your words , not mineQuote:
I can't believe you're recommending CD and AP. CD is a terrible option, especially when a MS/DB bar is already tight. AP is fun... but ultimately inferior to other options.
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Originally Posted by traversc
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Originally Posted by traversc
So you agree with me... except you stated earlier in direct contradiction...:
... or you agree with me except you are trying to state facts on a direct contradiction like "thats 100% BS" and "whether or not the test ( you are calling DPS on MoD a TEST no acronym like i said ) counts was never in dispute. Tyrael had a doubt and now is gonna TEST some general builds on MoD. Quote:
So in other words, you need to wait and let stuff beat on you and your teammates before you go in to attack them?
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CD is a good option, and I don't have troubles fitting it on my bar (considering I use bar-compressing skills like Golden Phoenix Strike). MS>DB takes, like, 4 skills, so it's not THAT hard to fit stuff in.|
Again, enchantments should not be an argument against comparing the usefulness of Sins and Wars.
Yet... it is. Quote:
So in other words, DS+SY essentially has a 15-25 second downtime every 45 seconds where it can't maintain its normal (and already less than MS>DB) DPS?
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I can't believe you're recommending CD and AP. CD is a terrible option, especially when a MS/DB bar is already tight. AP is fun... but ultimately inferior to other options.
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Yet... it is.
Another thing to mention - just about every warrior build uses Flail, which gives a -33% IMS. While Enraging cancels it, it has a 20s recharge, meaning you can't spam it whenever. Chasing moving foes (very common against a lot of melees) or even simply switching targets is harder with Wars because of this. And I don't know about you, but I know of a lot more areas where enemies moving is a problem than is heavy enchantment removal (you're going to have to have at least 3 enchant removals to get rid of CA if you're smart).
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Originally Posted by traversc
The problem is, they DON'T have similar defense/utility. Warrior has stronger innate tanking ability and doesn't rely on enchantments. Godmode warrior can easily keep up SY! all the time. With MS/DB, it's POSSIBLE, but in practice not easy.
MS>DB has 96AL. DS+SY has a mean of 106AL. That's pretty much the same damn amount. They're both very tankable, and are going to give the monks ample time to react. Also, utility means little when you can straight kill just about anything within 5 seconds. And Godmode warrior has less DPS, meaning you can't kill stuff as fast, meaning the monks have to keep stuff up for longer.
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Alone:
Buffed ([email protected], [email protected], [email protected]): P.S: Fastest test evah. I think I can upgrade it. Trying with [email protected] P.S2: DPS Dropped to 95 (Alone) testing for 180 seconds. EDIT: Buffed2 ([email protected], [email protected], [email protected]): With [email protected], DPS will be about 190.
Forgotton200
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Maintainable DPS - Which Profession Is Best?
Warriors. The problem I'm having with my assassin is that mobs dies too fast to activate moebius strike. Golden fox strike ---> Wild strike and mobs are already dead. If I go with Golden Phoenix Strike --> Dual attack, Just those two and it's dead so I have to wait for the long recharge since it won't activate moebius strike. If your party can't kill general PvE mobs(non-boss) within a second or two, you're doing something wrong. On my warrior, I can start off by dragon slash right away. Also, enchantment strip is common in general PvE. For deep enchantment strips, I avoid this by sending in my H/H first but that means I'm losing dps since a warrior can just go in, activate IAS stance and D-slash away. Another option is I go in without casting my enchant, wait till it wastes its enchant strips then cast it on but a warrior can use IAS without all that hassle. | Also, people seems to think warriors can't run Asuran scan. I do use it, and I'm not having trouble with it. Hitting D-slash that does 200+ dmg with buffs and can be started in the beginning of the fight is better than the combo(that needs to be reset on each mob) that assassins are stuck to. Also, thanks to WW having +20 dmg, it can be buffed much more than death blossom's AoE. I find it hilarious how assassins tries to keep proving themselves on their use, yet they are a crap profession. You might say it's comparing apples to oranges, but I'd say it's comparing apples(warrior) to piece of sh*t(assassin). Go farm with SF as it's the only thing you can do effectively. Also don't forget party synergy. AP-MoP Necromancer combined with HB-WW warriors > all physical profession.
Tenebrae
Sht happens when FGJ goes down. Anyone with anything diff from moebius and dragon slash ? ill have to do it with Locust Fury
faraaz
Actually...
[build;OwpiMypMtIWDKDq/8WCgxc1cBA] has the highest sustainable DPS in the game, more than Warriors, more than Moebius / Death Blossom...more than anything. Edit: Forgot to mention, the build is crit scythe...didn't realise Guru build code is still broken. And for your perusal, the following screen with NO OUTSIDE BUFFS: To summarise, 173 dps without even trying over a period of 101 seconds (tried to get 100, but typed /bow slow). Crit hits regen'ing energy means you can keep this up for an hour if you had the patience (I do not...anyone willing to prove me wrong can go ahead, but I do not have the tolerance for such boredom). I would love to see a warrior try and beat those numbers using HIS OWN BUILD ONLY...no outside buffs. Edit & PS: Ran another test...this time I got 178 DPS over 157 seconds...it seems the damage just increases with time? =D Regardless, the original statement stands...I'd like to see anything else come close to these numbers. 360??
Just pointing a few things out: In reality you won't be able to spam MS/DB even half the time you do against MoD in real game environment.
Against MoD you just simply attack once with GPS and then spam away 90~ seconds (or whatever it was) MS/DB. And you think that will give even a slight clue about your real DPS? Think again. Foes should be dying every few seconds, and you won't be spamming MS/DB that much, especially with GPS which has 8 second recharge. (Also, praise the creator of Adblock+ so I can block that OP's stupid Naruto avatar)
Jaigoda
In response to the past posts...
Originally Posted by 360°
Picuso: I'd say that the most accurate results would be if you tested for 45 seconds, considering that's the cycle of a single FGJ (180 seconds is about the same). Also, with the buffs I'm pretty sure my heroes were runed badly, though I can't remember specifically. Still, those are showing over 18 and 30 seconds, whereas it should show the downtime as well. Of course, it's pretty simple to assume that it'd drop by about 15 considering that's how much DS without buffs had. Oh, and BH and SY will both drop DPS since you won't be able to DS every hit, and BH drops DPS anyway (.75 seconds for like 50 damage is doing to lower DPS). So all in all and when including utility stuff, it'll probably have around 80 DPS on an unmoving target. Forgotton200: Stop playing NM and find some real mobs. And if you're barely dealing damage before things die, then why the hell does it matter? Anyway, running regular Sabway I almost never have troubles while using Golden Phoenix>DB>MS before something dies. And again, DS gives you a -33% IMS while using Flail (with a 20s recharge cancel stance), which means since everything's dying so fast you're going to spend most of your time switching targets, not attacking. How's that for efficiency? Why don't you go back to farming Mountain Trolls since that's all you can do effectively? Tenebrae: I've tested LF before, actually, and use it fairly frequently when I H/H. With regular stuff and using "Dodge This!" instead of SY, I got a bit more than 90 DPS. With the same buffs as shown above on MS>DB, I got exactly 192 DPS or the same exact number as Moebius. However, in order to get the most realistic results I should probably run it with just LF and a smiter with SoH, simply because you're never going to run LF without SoH. Faraaz: Yeah, someone needs to test Critscythe. in terms of raw DPS, it should take the cake, though it does lose a lot of utility. EDIT: Quote:
Just pointing a few things out: In reality you won't be able to spam MS/DB even half the time you do against MoD in real game environment.
Against MoD you just simply attack once with GPS and then spam away 90~ seconds (or whatever it was) MS/DB. And you think that will give even a slight clue about your real DPS? Think again. Foes should be dying every few seconds, and you won't be spamming MS/DB that much, especially with GPS which has 8 second recharge. (Also, praise the creator of Adblock+ so I can block that OP's stupid Naruto avatar) GPS>DB>MS is easily going to do as much or more DPS as MS>autoattack>DB>MS>autoattack>DB>MS. If you hit all three, maybe with a second MS after everything's been recharged, you have mutliple back-to-back attack skills with no autoattacks in between. I actually did a quick test simply using Golden Fox Strike>Wild Strike>Death Blossom, and with those three only I came up with ~125 DPS over 3 seconds. So yeah, your point is moot. And yeah, I need to make another avvy. I made it back when the Narutard bug was going around, and was implying that Naruto should be burned on a stake. I've realized now that it comes off as me being a fanboy.
Jaigoda
Didn't see your edit till after I posted. Yeah, I doubt warriors are ever going to compare to that. End of discussion?
faraaz
I'd say so. Watch them justify with "q.q ur enchants get ripped you get blinded you get empathied and NO THAT DOESNT HAPPEN TO WARRIORS LULZ" =]
Picuso |
