I mean sure the update was in the right direction, but they're stuck on support roles at the moment. I mean sure the new spirit flexibility is great but they're the only really viable thing at the moment, maybe they should make all channeling magic have armour penetration (for pve obviously) say 2 or 3% every level of spawning power.
And as for paras, they're still stuck in support roles too. Everyone knows a ranger or warrior can use a spear better than them...
Good changes so far but I think more is needed, especially for para's.
I'm still not going to make a Rit or Para...
Xsiriss
Toxic OnyX
Rit's are support by the nature of the profession, even when dealing damage it is still more backline than mid, but they are one of the truly unique professions which I applaud a-net for bringing to us.
Para's are a mixed profession, r & w only use spears better because of IAS in their primaries, but that is more a-nets fault for the way they killed IAS for paras, a par with a similar IAS & IMS in its primary would easily outstrip either one (dammit I miss paraway)
I think it is a good start from a-net but they still need to do more with a para to make more viable overall
Para's are a mixed profession, r & w only use spears better because of IAS in their primaries, but that is more a-nets fault for the way they killed IAS for paras, a par with a similar IAS & IMS in its primary would easily outstrip either one (dammit I miss paraway)
I think it is a good start from a-net but they still need to do more with a para to make more viable overall
MagmaRed
Its fine you don't enjoy playing a support character, but that doesn't mean ALL classes should be about damage. And if you want to make a suggestion, you missed Sardelac, as this is Riverside.
And adding armor penetration is not a good way of 'fixing' the problem in my opinion. Especially if you make it 2% you could end up with 32% Armor Penetration if you wanted, and that is if you use the lowest of what you suggested. Toss in 3% and you get up to 48%.
Oh, and Paragons not as good as Warrior or Ranger with spears because of IAS in the primary? Sorry, I didn't realize Aggressive Refrain was a bad skill. Permanent upkeep with little to struggle with, and 33% IAS must be bad if Lightning Reflexes is a better option.
And adding armor penetration is not a good way of 'fixing' the problem in my opinion. Especially if you make it 2% you could end up with 32% Armor Penetration if you wanted, and that is if you use the lowest of what you suggested. Toss in 3% and you get up to 48%.
Oh, and Paragons not as good as Warrior or Ranger with spears because of IAS in the primary? Sorry, I didn't realize Aggressive Refrain was a bad skill. Permanent upkeep with little to struggle with, and 33% IAS must be bad if Lightning Reflexes is a better option.
Symeon
The only thing that's really changed is that Rits can now cast their useless spirits before the battle is over. They're still useless.
Most of Channeling Magic is just like Air Magic - it's for single target spiking. No reason to use it in PvE. Communing (i.e. spirit spam) is inferior to PvE skills like SY for damage reduction, and offensive spirits are just bad. Restoration is only good when used by a necro with infinite energy. Spawning Power's effects are still not really worthwhile.
What they really ought to do is make weapon spells (including Splinter) practically unusable by other professions. One possibility would be to increase the base cost of all weapon spells, and then each rank of Spawning Power decreases the cost. The effects of all weapon spells could also be buffed in PvE. Duration isn't really the issue here. Splinter for example, would be just as effective even if it only lasted 5 seconds. With longer durations weapon spells are just more likely to be replaced by others before they end.
As for paragons, the Motivation line could really use some buffs. If SY is heavily nerfed they will need more all-round improvements so that people don't stop using them altogether.
Most of Channeling Magic is just like Air Magic - it's for single target spiking. No reason to use it in PvE. Communing (i.e. spirit spam) is inferior to PvE skills like SY for damage reduction, and offensive spirits are just bad. Restoration is only good when used by a necro with infinite energy. Spawning Power's effects are still not really worthwhile.
What they really ought to do is make weapon spells (including Splinter) practically unusable by other professions. One possibility would be to increase the base cost of all weapon spells, and then each rank of Spawning Power decreases the cost. The effects of all weapon spells could also be buffed in PvE. Duration isn't really the issue here. Splinter for example, would be just as effective even if it only lasted 5 seconds. With longer durations weapon spells are just more likely to be replaced by others before they end.
As for paragons, the Motivation line could really use some buffs. If SY is heavily nerfed they will need more all-round improvements so that people don't stop using them altogether.
Abedeus
Edge Igneas
Only support?
Did you even try the changes? I would actually use spawning power now, its no drag to make spirits. I think these are very nice changes, I am using spirits in PvE, maybe later I will even bring them to PvP. The problem before was the fact that no one used spawning power even if the inherit effect was useful, it was because spirits were too much work to animate, and the effect wasn't always great.
Did you even try the changes? I would actually use spawning power now, its no drag to make spirits. I think these are very nice changes, I am using spirits in PvE, maybe later I will even bring them to PvP. The problem before was the fact that no one used spawning power even if the inherit effect was useful, it was because spirits were too much work to animate, and the effect wasn't always great.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xsiriss
Everyone knows a ranger or warrior can use a spear better than them...
I was unaware Warriors and Rangers could get 14 Spear Mastery and also use Aggressive Refrain.
dusanyu
Last time i checked paragon was a Support Class
Keira Nightgale
Shayne Hawke
Maybe because they're support classes?
FoxBat
Spirit spam heroes are now pretty close to minion masters, in terms of decent random damage and punching bags. Combine both for complete absurdness.
Yelling @ Cats
You are pissed that support classes are still mostly support?
Are you retarded? This is like me bitching about warriors because they are still mostly melee.
Are you retarded? This is like me bitching about warriors because they are still mostly melee.
Shadowmere
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxBat
And also, I don't quite understand the point of the OP, if the classes didn't interest you before and don't interest you now why do you feel like you "have" to make one?
It really sounds like you don't like playing the support role, so here's a simple solution...don't
Yelling @ Cats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowmere
And also, I don't quite understand the point of the OP, if the classes didn't interest you before and don't interest you now why do you feel like you "have" to make one?
It really sounds like you don't like playing the support role, so here's a simple solution...don't And ffs, don't make one and try to be something that it's not. I want to shoot myself everytime I see a Para with 7 attack skills and rebirth.
It really sounds like you don't like playing the support role, so here's a simple solution...don't And ffs, don't make one and try to be something that it's not. I want to shoot myself everytime I see a Para with 7 attack skills and rebirth.
iToasterHD
A lot of you are being very dramatic and over zealous. That being said, what all of you are trying to say is, nevertheless, true. Ritualists and Paragons are support characters and will not be able to compete with an Elementalist in damage, or a Monk in healing.
However, instead of yelling at the OP, keep in mind it is hard for some people to view support characters as being helpful and powerful (myself included). In stories, movies and most video games (first person shooters) the main character, you, does everything. You are the hero killing the enemies, completing the goals. So when you enter GW where it is team based, you get this feeling of being a sidekick. The guy that dies in episode 5, expendable. I have struggled with this a lot in Guild Wars.
In games like Team Fortress 2, where it is team based, you still either heal or kill. Each character is skilled at killing, just in different ways, so you feel helpful. In GW, you are not always killing. Sometimes you are just supporting through minor damage, and this can be uncomfortable for most. The OP, and myself included are trying to see things in Black and White. Either Heal, or kill. There is no in between, no gray area.
In reality, everyone is a support character. Ele's do damage, but left alone quickly die. Warriors have armor, but can't kill huge numbers. Monks can heal, but don't do any damage. Each character is meant to play off another, creating a balance. Some character are further on the either end of the seesaw, while others fit some where in the middle, tweaking the balance. Ritualists and Paragons are in between. They tweak the seesaw to be perfectly balance, rather then only slightly.
Hurray for psychology!
However, instead of yelling at the OP, keep in mind it is hard for some people to view support characters as being helpful and powerful (myself included). In stories, movies and most video games (first person shooters) the main character, you, does everything. You are the hero killing the enemies, completing the goals. So when you enter GW where it is team based, you get this feeling of being a sidekick. The guy that dies in episode 5, expendable. I have struggled with this a lot in Guild Wars.
In games like Team Fortress 2, where it is team based, you still either heal or kill. Each character is skilled at killing, just in different ways, so you feel helpful. In GW, you are not always killing. Sometimes you are just supporting through minor damage, and this can be uncomfortable for most. The OP, and myself included are trying to see things in Black and White. Either Heal, or kill. There is no in between, no gray area.
In reality, everyone is a support character. Ele's do damage, but left alone quickly die. Warriors have armor, but can't kill huge numbers. Monks can heal, but don't do any damage. Each character is meant to play off another, creating a balance. Some character are further on the either end of the seesaw, while others fit some where in the middle, tweaking the balance. Ritualists and Paragons are in between. They tweak the seesaw to be perfectly balance, rather then only slightly.
Hurray for psychology!
Longasc
The thing is:
PvP Ritualists did not get boosted, non-primary weapon skill users were hit by the Spawning Power buff. But also Ritualists: Now they need Spawning Power to get their spells up to the former duration and cannot spend the points elsewhere.
PvE introduced a gimmick role: SoS spirit spam.
Paragons got a load of PvE buffs, but ... people will still ask for a SY+TNTF Paragon. Maybe with the now buffed GFTE as well.
What use has "Stand Your Ground" if you can have +100 AL for adrenaline, which also generates energy for TNTF and other skills?
But that was it, nothing changed for Paragons despite multiple skill changes.
PvP Ritualists did not get boosted, non-primary weapon skill users were hit by the Spawning Power buff. But also Ritualists: Now they need Spawning Power to get their spells up to the former duration and cannot spend the points elsewhere.
PvE introduced a gimmick role: SoS spirit spam.
Paragons got a load of PvE buffs, but ... people will still ask for a SY+TNTF Paragon. Maybe with the now buffed GFTE as well.
What use has "Stand Your Ground" if you can have +100 AL for adrenaline, which also generates energy for TNTF and other skills?
But that was it, nothing changed for Paragons despite multiple skill changes.
the_jos
Quote:
Originally Posted by iToasterHD
However, instead of yelling at the OP, keep in mind it is hard for some people to view support characters as being helpful and powerful (myself included). In stories, movies and most video games (first person shooters) the main character, you, does everything. You are the hero killing the enemies, completing the goals. So when you enter GW where it is team based, you get this feeling of being a sidekick. The guy that dies in episode 5, expendable. I have struggled with this a lot in Guild Wars.
Just compare it to football, rugby or any other kind of team sports.
There are offensive players, defensive players and many times some kind of mid-line.
All this to make sure the team achieves the goal.
You mention movies and stories. Take away all people besides the main hero.
Would be boring.
Even in a movie like 'I am legend' there is some interaction with other people/creatures.
Or take LotR (movie/book). It's not about one single hero doing everything.
It's several people doing different things that all help and make the story.
Going back in time, I'm currently reading Milton's Paradise Lost (old English sucks when you ain't a native reader btw). Who's the hero in that poem?
All the old kings and other heroes from history? Part of a larger group of (mainly) men. People who enabled them to become heroes. Some might even have been more powerfull than the hero but accepted the role in the shadow.
It's easy to underestimate the value or power of support characters.
I played Urgoz's HM yesterday with 2 guildies and a bunch of heroes.
Used only casters in the team. Sure, it took a while but we used no cons except some DP removers. Part of our long playing time was I had to to cook dinner and guildies taking care of their baby shortly after that (that's also the reason we didn't take anyone else).
Just because some classes are support doesn't mean they can't do stuff.
It's only that certain other classes are more efficient at certain roles.
We just made sure our team was up to the task.
Heroes? Nah, just decent team work.
There are offensive players, defensive players and many times some kind of mid-line.
All this to make sure the team achieves the goal.
You mention movies and stories. Take away all people besides the main hero.
Would be boring.
Even in a movie like 'I am legend' there is some interaction with other people/creatures.
Or take LotR (movie/book). It's not about one single hero doing everything.
It's several people doing different things that all help and make the story.
Going back in time, I'm currently reading Milton's Paradise Lost (old English sucks when you ain't a native reader btw). Who's the hero in that poem?
All the old kings and other heroes from history? Part of a larger group of (mainly) men. People who enabled them to become heroes. Some might even have been more powerfull than the hero but accepted the role in the shadow.
It's easy to underestimate the value or power of support characters.
I played Urgoz's HM yesterday with 2 guildies and a bunch of heroes.
Used only casters in the team. Sure, it took a while but we used no cons except some DP removers. Part of our long playing time was I had to to cook dinner and guildies taking care of their baby shortly after that (that's also the reason we didn't take anyone else).
Just because some classes are support doesn't mean they can't do stuff.
It's only that certain other classes are more efficient at certain roles.
We just made sure our team was up to the task.
Heroes? Nah, just decent team work.
reaper with no name
Nothing good left? Are you kidding me? Splinter Weapon owns as much as ever, and the rit is still the best at using it thanks to the breakpoint at 14.
Spirits own now. If you don't believe me, compare them to necro minions.
Spirits with decent SP and Armor of Unfeeling are now tougher than minions, and they deal armor ignoring damage at range, without requiring corpses or constant saccing to keep alive. They can be set up in the blink of an eye, and they don't cost as much energy (though to be fair, they do require more skill slots and necros have soul reaping).
Meanwhile, a spirit spammer can also prot with union, displacement, and shelter (the former two now last more than twice as long with the buffs, and if they get killed quickly, well, imagine how much damage they must have prevented!) at the same time, or (if they go restoration, and yes, it is possible to do while spamming spirits, you just have to use 6 communing instead of 10 or 11, which is more than enough to maintain AoU) they can heal at the same time as spamming spirits.
And they can spam Splinter Weapon all the while.
Spirits own now. If you don't believe me, compare them to necro minions.
Spirits with decent SP and Armor of Unfeeling are now tougher than minions, and they deal armor ignoring damage at range, without requiring corpses or constant saccing to keep alive. They can be set up in the blink of an eye, and they don't cost as much energy (though to be fair, they do require more skill slots and necros have soul reaping).
Meanwhile, a spirit spammer can also prot with union, displacement, and shelter (the former two now last more than twice as long with the buffs, and if they get killed quickly, well, imagine how much damage they must have prevented!) at the same time, or (if they go restoration, and yes, it is possible to do while spamming spirits, you just have to use 6 communing instead of 10 or 11, which is more than enough to maintain AoU) they can heal at the same time as spamming spirits.
And they can spam Splinter Weapon all the while.
mrseasonalt
Paragons and rits will never be useful in any farming /elite areas simply because they suck...
You can only have one rit ss in a party therefore they suck for spikes
paragons suck because they are support buffers(if you can even call them that)
I would take an ele/mes/necro anyday over a rit and a monk anyday over a para
These classes are useless in the fact that they dont deal damage and dont heal which believe it or not is how you kill things in every RPG type game ever made so i applaud Anet on making the glacial griffon harder and beating magni the bison easier......
You can only have one rit ss in a party therefore they suck for spikes
paragons suck because they are support buffers(if you can even call them that)
I would take an ele/mes/necro anyday over a rit and a monk anyday over a para
These classes are useless in the fact that they dont deal damage and dont heal which believe it or not is how you kill things in every RPG type game ever made so i applaud Anet on making the glacial griffon harder and beating magni the bison easier......
Life Bringing
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrseasonalt
Quote: You can only have one rit ss in a party therefore they suck for spikes You've clearly never been on a ritspike run in Urgoz, or done riftspike in DoA. The thing is, spirits aren't meant for spikes. It's the whoel channeling line thats lolspikes.
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I would take an ele/mes/necro anyday over a rit and a monk anyday over a para
There is a gigantic difference between Splinter weapon at 12 and 14. Every profession has something they do especially well, and most are different enough that they are difficult to compare. Btw, motigons rape face. Quote:
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