Monster Rits: Now tougher than ever in HM
Coast
discord kills stuff instantly....
Zahr Dalsk
I love threads like this, because all the really shitty players are revealed.
(Hint: they're the ones complaining that things are too hard or their build is ruined, when in fact it is not the case.)
(Hint: they're the ones complaining that things are too hard or their build is ruined, when in fact it is not the case.)
Boneyard Spleeneater
Hmm, interesting discussion.
To respond to some general points, I am not saying that HM is too hard, I am saying it is impossible. By impossible I don't mean it can't be played, I mean certain things can't be done. If any of you out there are capable of interrupting a .375 second spell after they have started casting, then you are either uber-men, or cheaters. At some point, things cease to be challenging, and become boring (Rrangars comes to mind).
My thought was simply that Mesmers (which I often play, since it was my first toon) are supposed to be interrupter and hexers. In HM, they became CoP spikers, with the occasional interrupt available for long casting spells (Eles, Necros, and some Rit spells). Well now, Spirits will pop up and do whatever they do. Yes, I can always equip unnatural signet, but the point is that in buffing the rit, (and nerfing CoP), the Mes has essentially been sent to the ghetto of really effective AP caller.
I don't imagine that this update will ruin my play much, other than the fact that I only got a couple of weekends with my cool Keg farm before they nerfed it. My point in starting this was simply that in appealing to the people who wanted stronger rits, they radically changed a whole group of skills. This will have more radical consequences than they may have expected.
To respond to some general points, I am not saying that HM is too hard, I am saying it is impossible. By impossible I don't mean it can't be played, I mean certain things can't be done. If any of you out there are capable of interrupting a .375 second spell after they have started casting, then you are either uber-men, or cheaters. At some point, things cease to be challenging, and become boring (Rrangars comes to mind).
My thought was simply that Mesmers (which I often play, since it was my first toon) are supposed to be interrupter and hexers. In HM, they became CoP spikers, with the occasional interrupt available for long casting spells (Eles, Necros, and some Rit spells). Well now, Spirits will pop up and do whatever they do. Yes, I can always equip unnatural signet, but the point is that in buffing the rit, (and nerfing CoP), the Mes has essentially been sent to the ghetto of really effective AP caller.
I don't imagine that this update will ruin my play much, other than the fact that I only got a couple of weekends with my cool Keg farm before they nerfed it. My point in starting this was simply that in appealing to the people who wanted stronger rits, they radically changed a whole group of skills. This will have more radical consequences than they may have expected.
Axel Zinfandel
Signet of binding! Use it to your advantage and make them yours!
Sjeng
I doubt it'll be that much harder. I'm happy I'm done vanquishing NF and factions though 
shoyon456
Doubt cast time will change it much, but I think "we will return" will prove to be one hell of a bi*ch in the desolation.
I too am glad i finished vq'ing long ago
I too am glad i finished vq'ing long ago
tasha
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Originally Posted by Boneyard Spleeneater
By impossible I don't mean it can't be played, I mean certain things can't be done. If any of you out there are capable of interrupting a .375 second spell after they have started casting, then you are either uber-men, or cheaters. At some point, things cease to be challenging, and become boring (Rrangars comes to mind).
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Boneyard Spleeneater
My thought was simply that Mesmers (which I often play, since it was my first toon) are supposed to be interrupter and hexers. In HM, they became CoP spikers, with the occasional interrupt available for long casting spells (Eles, Necros, and some Rit spells). Well now, Spirits will pop up and do whatever they do. Yes, I can always equip unnatural signet, but the point is that in buffing the rit, (and nerfing CoP), the Mes has essentially been sent to the ghetto of really effective AP caller.
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Originally Posted by Boneyard Spleeneater
I don't imagine that this update will ruin my play much, other than the fact that I only got a couple of weekends with my cool Keg farm before they nerfed it. My point in starting this was simply that in appealing to the people who wanted stronger rits, they radically changed a whole group of skills. This will have more radical consequences than they may have expected.
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Chocobo1
"PLZ BUFF SPIRITS, TIME SETTING THEM UP TAKES TOO LONG FOR EFFECTIVENESS"
*Anet does something right*
"OMG NERF PLZ SPIRITS TOO STRONG OMG"
Come on, think about what you are talking about. If spirits are really your biggest problem, then you might wanna rethink your build.
*Anet does something right*
"OMG NERF PLZ SPIRITS TOO STRONG OMG"
Come on, think about what you are talking about. If spirits are really your biggest problem, then you might wanna rethink your build.
Beren985
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Originally Posted by tasha_darke
Daze, Arcane Conundrum, Frustration, Migraine say hi. That 0.375 "impossible" spell becomes a 0.5 or 0.75 cast and quite easily interrupted.
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I see Boneyard Spleeneater point myself, being mainly a mesmer user. But in the end, all this rant means is that interrupting is NOT a viable way to deal with spirit spammers. Fortunately in this game there are always some other means at hand, mesmers we have Unnatural (which I'm not a big fan of) and Spiritual Pain, which in this cases you can use ~5 times to deal ~375 armor ignoring damage to each of the opposing foes, using only one spell. Add Lyssa's Aura and some H/H, and I don't see where should the problem be.
Adapt or die.
jray14
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Originally Posted by traversc
Discordway nerf...?
Get real man. Signet of Binding Consume Soul Gaze of Fury Unnatural Signet Probably other skills as well. Don't be so stuck in a box. |
Of course there's a counter to anything in the game. But there are only 2 profs and 200 attribute points per char. If an optimized team suddenly has to counter something new, there's gonna be a dip in efficiency. I.e., nerf.
If anyone can come up with a 1-player + 3-hero + 4-hench build that vanquishes areas with Rits as fast as I could before this update, I'd love to see it! Translation for the cynical: "ZOMG vanquishes so freakin long now11!!!11"
Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by Chocobo1
"PLZ BUFF SPIRITS, TIME SETTING THEM UP TAKES TOO LONG FOR EFFECTIVENESS"
*Anet does something right* "OMG NERF PLZ SPIRITS TOO STRONG OMG" |
"PLEASE BUFF SPIRITS, TIME SETTING THEM UP TAKES TOO LONG FOR EFFECTIVENESS"
*Anet does something right*
"THANKS ARENANET THIS IS AWESOME"
*sound of non-rits whining because our class finally got a buff*
Legion Magnus
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Originally Posted by Aera
I was thinking of that solo quest in EoTN where you have to kill a griffon...that must suck in HM now.
I'll check it out right now  |
Black Metal
I ran across something today that seemed a bit imba. Any Skree goup with 3+ paragons is brutal, with the new 'We Shall Return' becoming a party-wide rez. And that was just in NM...........
YunSooJin
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Originally Posted by Boneyard Spleeneater
Hmm, interesting discussion.
To respond to some general points, I am not saying that HM is too hard, I am saying it is impossible. By impossible I don't mean it can't be played, I mean certain things can't be done. If any of you out there are capable of interrupting a .375 second spell after they have started casting, then you are either uber-men, or cheaters. At some point, things cease to be challenging, and become boring (Rrangars comes to mind). My thought was simply that Mesmers (which I often play, since it was my first toon) are supposed to be interrupter and hexers. In HM, they became CoP spikers, with the occasional interrupt available for long casting spells (Eles, Necros, and some Rit spells). Well now, Spirits will pop up and do whatever they do. Yes, I can always equip unnatural signet, but the point is that in buffing the rit, (and nerfing CoP), the Mes has essentially been sent to the ghetto of really effective AP caller. I don't imagine that this update will ruin my play much, other than the fact that I only got a couple of weekends with my cool Keg farm before they nerfed it. My point in starting this was simply that in appealing to the people who wanted stronger rits, they radically changed a whole group of skills. This will have more radical consequences than they may have expected. |
Although PvE in it of itself is somewhat sensitive to disruption, by and large, PvE mostly respects brute force. This brute force is best exemplified by massive spellcaster damage (ie fire elementalists) or overpowered mechanics that take advantage of the relative stupidity of the AI (minion masters -> bombers). Instead of making the game harder by making the enemies smarter, ANET decided to make the game harder by making the monsters stronger by brute force - higher levels, faster attack/move, faster cast times. Due to this, mesmers will always feel a little weaker or less effective - against the comparative monstrousity that is hard mode or harder areas, would you bring a small surgical knife or just a really large gun?
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by Black Metal
I ran across something today that seemed a bit imba. Any Skree goup with 3+ paragons is brutal, with the new 'We Shall Return' becoming a party-wide rez. And that was just in NM...........
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Funny fact: Some people who run overpowered builds have no problem with it, but when they face enemies with powerful builds they hate it.
Black Metal
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
Can't wait for people to start whining about it.
Funny fact: Some people who run overpowered builds have no problem with it, but when they face enemies with powerful builds they hate it. |
YunSooJin
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Originally Posted by Black Metal
that's real cute there, but i wasn't complaining, just point it out. And since it was totally unexpected, I wasn't prepared for it. That's the long and the short about it. Don't appreciate the attitude.
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Jinkies
PvE Ritualist bosses have always been challenging to unprepared teams, though it was never their weapon spells or spirits that were the issue.
It was skills like Spirit Rift that did 800 damage that got us.
The real problem will be in the desolation, ffs Signet of Return, We Shall Return, Junundu will actually have to work to kill foes.
It was skills like Spirit Rift that did 800 damage that got us.
The real problem will be in the desolation, ffs Signet of Return, We Shall Return, Junundu will actually have to work to kill foes.
Hyper.nl
Searing Flames > Spirits
OMG the spirits are ON FIRE!
OMG the spirits are ON FIRE!
Kendel
We Shall Return is a bigger issue than this... the only real problem is that the spirits take bleeding ages to kill without stuff like Unnatural or specific anti-spirit skills. But We Shall Return can be a pita pita.
I realised a few days ago that Skree mobs have the damn skill. I never even saw them use We Shall Return before and suddenly, up ressurects the entire sodding mob! Its not that much of a problem really until you get a couple of them in a mob with a Griffon, then it just depends if you can deal enough damage/disruption to kill the Singers.
I realised a few days ago that Skree mobs have the damn skill. I never even saw them use We Shall Return before and suddenly, up ressurects the entire sodding mob! Its not that much of a problem really until you get a couple of them in a mob with a Griffon, then it just depends if you can deal enough damage/disruption to kill the Singers.
Necromas
The thing is, not being able to interrupt spirits doesn't make mesmers useless in PvE. Nerfing Cry of Pain spamming didn't either (it wasn't even linked to a mesmer attribute anyways so nobody even cared which caster class you were primary).
Just because PuG leaders may have a bad opinion of your class, or interrupt heavy builds aren't useful against ritualists now, doesn't mean you can't do a strong mesmer build. Mesmers aren't weak, people see strong PvP mesmer builds that just aren't that useful in PvE and assume mesmers can't do anything else.
Just because PuG leaders may have a bad opinion of your class, or interrupt heavy builds aren't useful against ritualists now, doesn't mean you can't do a strong mesmer build. Mesmers aren't weak, people see strong PvP mesmer builds that just aren't that useful in PvE and assume mesmers can't do anything else.
The Little Viking
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Originally Posted by EPO Bot
Didn't you guys complain about HM being so easy? Well here you go.
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Just toss out an AoE and move on. Simple as that.
Owik Gall
You want to talk about hard, everyone? Try killing the rit griffon for the Ursan skill now. While you're at it, try defeating Razah in the Norn Tournament.
Necromas
Most classes can easily beat the ritualist griffon still using either necro or ritualist secondary with aura of the lich or ritualist skills, and some PvE only skills.
I've seen warrior builds that can do it just fine still too, and other specialized builds for different classes.
Like the doppleganger fight, the trick isn't finding the most powerful build, it's finding the build best suited for the specific one on one fight. Him casting faster just narrows down which builds work because now you can't just interrupt him or take advantage of him standing still for 5 seconds at a time.
I've seen warrior builds that can do it just fine still too, and other specialized builds for different classes.
Like the doppleganger fight, the trick isn't finding the most powerful build, it's finding the build best suited for the specific one on one fight. Him casting faster just narrows down which builds work because now you can't just interrupt him or take advantage of him standing still for 5 seconds at a time.
Shasgaliel
Since I use zealous weapons a lot and skills like Barrage or whirlwind attack more spirits around means more energy for spamming other skills not mentioning that most of the spirits are just a minor nuisance. Just use their casting buff as your advantage!
felinette
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Originally Posted by Necromas
Most classes can easily beat the ritualist griffon still using either necro or ritualist secondary with aura of the lich or ritualist skills, and some PvE only skills.
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Arkantos
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Originally Posted by Owik Gall
You want to talk about hard, everyone? Try killing the rit griffon for the Ursan skill now. While you're at it, try defeating Razah in the Norn Tournament.
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|pyro|
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Originally Posted by EPO Bot
Didn't you guys complain about HM being so easy? Well here you go.
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Bryant Again
It's not that bad. Just run ArkFenWay and pwn face
And I'M tha real Proro, Pyro!
And I'M tha real Proro, Pyro!
Unreal Havoc
I love how people complain because they don't want to prepare for what's ahead of them.
For the record I really enjoyed the challenge of HM Vizunah Square post Ritualist buff.
For the record I really enjoyed the challenge of HM Vizunah Square post Ritualist buff.
Sookie
Since the Search function has been temporarily suspended, I may be in the wrong place here, but I have a Rit character and have been experimenting with my new and improved skills.
The Signet of Spirits is fantastic, but the Signet of Binding is thoroughly awesome! Not only have I been stealing enemy Ritualist spirits and transporting them around when I transport mine...I have also been stealing enemy Ranger nature rituals and dragging them around with me too.
That makes my Rit even more powerful!
The Signet of Spirits is fantastic, but the Signet of Binding is thoroughly awesome! Not only have I been stealing enemy Ritualist spirits and transporting them around when I transport mine...I have also been stealing enemy Ranger nature rituals and dragging them around with me too.
That makes my Rit even more powerful!
MithranArkanere
Vizunah Was fun, with all those ritualsist summoning spirits for me, and then wasting time killing their own spirits after I bind them to me.
englitdaudelin
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Originally Posted by YunSooJin
[Snip] Mesmers or the mesmer secondary can dominate in PvP simply because they are strong caster and monk shutdown, and can make or break a team. This is because PvP is sensitive to disruption.
Although PvE in it of itself is somewhat sensitive to disruption, by and large, PvE mostly respects brute force. [Snip] |
PvE, especially PvE hard mode, is, I think just as susceptible to disruption as PvP--exactly BECAUSE of the buff to monsters. The damage they do--the diffculty of HM--is contingent upon them getting their attacks, or heals, or spirits, or spells, off in time. Their bars are better synergized than NM bars. But the disruptions a memser or ranger can create really alter that encounter.
The dazing of a healer, followed by sometimes just one interrupt of a healing spell, often spells the death of part of the monster team. Sometimes, you don't even get the interrupt; the slowdown in casting is enough. And once that happens, the rest of the team is done.
The spirits are an annoyance, but not the real impediment to killing mobs in HM. The SPELLS that are cast--the rit spells that are contingent upon a spirit being nearby--are the problem in HM. The condition removals, weapon spells, and heals, all happen so fast, and are made more effective by the speed of HM, that I think there's a new place for mesmers and rangers--and it's kind of the same as the old place.
Daze, spell slowdown, spell disabling, condition pressure.
Anduin
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Originally Posted by The Little Viking
I was just thinking this very same thing...good lord, will these people never be satisfied??
Just toss out an AoE and move on. Simple as that. |
Anduin
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
The glacial griffin isn't that hard. As for razah, he must be pretty damn hard, but who cares about the norn fighting tournament? WTB a boss with his skill bar in an elite mission, please. It would actually make it....more challenging (for people not running cryway and shit).
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If they didn't care, they wouldn't post it, therefore your "who cares?" argument is redundant.
Dzjudz
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Originally Posted by Owik Gall
You want to talk about hard, everyone? Try killing the rit griffon for the Ursan skill now. While you're at it, try defeating Razah in the Norn Tournament.
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