Paragon + N/Rt build setup

Gigashadow

Gigashadow

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Bellevue, WA

W/

Maybe like me you're bored of running the same old-but effective thing as you vanquish the universe, and you'd like to try something new. Here's a paragon build I've been using for a few days now.

I'll list the skills in the build first, but it does require a little explanation, and there is a useful synergy with one of your other heroes you will probably want to exploit.

12+2 Leadership
10+1 Motivation
8+1 Command

**This character does NOT attack, set it to passive. Do not give it a martial weapon, give it a (absolutely useless) caster weapon, otherwise heroes will cast splinter weapon on it.**

Song of Restoration {elite}
Ballad of Restoration
Lyric of Zeal <-- uses adrenaline
Anthem of Disruption
Anthem of Weariness
Blazing Finale
"They're on Fire!"
Signet of Aggression <-- provides adrenaline

The basic idea is burning. I have found Blazing Finale to be insanely good, and heroes are very very good about using it. As you charge in to a group of enemies, Blazing Finale will be cast on you almost immediately, even if nothing is burning yet.

The huge number of shouts/chants is here to ensure that something is ending on everyone almost constantly (plus, you may be using Save Yourselves! as well), triggering 7 full seconds of burning. The hero can and does keep up "They're On Fire" easily, which is a 33% damage reduction. This is a very strong skill, as unlike Save Yourselves!, as far as I know it affects ALL damage including +attack skill damage, damage from skills such as Visions of Regret, Shatter Hex, etc. Unlike SY! it affects you as well, an effect which I can say has been very noticeable. It of course stacks with SY as well.

You can also trigger renewed burning at will, by using an attack skill whenever Anthem of Disruption or Weariness is on you, forcing the shout to end on you. If you are paying attention, you can control the triggering of Anthem of Disruption to use it as an interrupt.

The sort-of-dependency this guy has that I was talking about earlier, was on you having a N/Rt or Rt/* with Signet of Spirits. This is because Anthem of Disruption and Weariness are two of the small number of chants that affect spirits. This means your 3 spirits will be (randomly) interrupting skills and causing weakness. Any physical henchies you brought will also benefit from these, and of course your Signet of Spirits guy will benefit from Lyric of Zeal as well.

Anthem of Disruption and Weariness may not seem like their mostly random functionality is that amazing, but those skills serve three purposes. A bit of energy management in Weariness's case, triggering burning (which happens very shortly after being applied to melee characters), and then their actual effect.

The mutual synergy between Lyric of Zeal and Signet of Aggression ensures this guy has all the energy he needs, as well as providing some to other characters with signets.

This guy provides 2 good partywide heals, and between him and a N/Rt with Life and PwK, dealing with partywide damage has not been a problem.

Note, what I outline below probably won't work for you unless you are a melee, as you can't rely on the awful hero melee AI to be in the optimal place. But after some vanquishes and quick tests in my personal builds testing ground of Grothmar Wardowns, it's working out very well and feels very strong. The longer a battle goes on, the more people the paragon will have cast Blazing Finale on; it's not uncommon to spin the camera around and look in the back lines, and see a 2-3 burning mobs chasing Mhenlo around.

I run the paragon instead of a curses necro, as I felt the curses necro spent way too much time spamming Barbs on everything, and while Barbs is a good skill (especially with minions), as is Enfeebling Blood, I didn't feel satisfied with the curses necro overall.

So right now I am running:

P/ - Leadership/Motivation/Command paragon above.
N/Rt - Sabway N/Rt with Signet of Spirits, Splinter Weapon
N/Mo - Smiter/Minion bomber, with Rip [email protected] I am addicted to Strength of Honor.

Interesting things to note; there are no hexes in the above setup, so you don't need to worry about removal or taking a shatter hex/HEV in the face. There is no aegis, prot spirit, or shield of absorption, which are all things I thought I wouldn't be able to live without in PvE, but which (so far) it turns out I actually can.

Playstyle-wise, you need to be very aggressive with this, running into a cluster of mobs first to start the pretty much permanent burning.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

The biggest problem that I see is simply the fact that giving this guy They're on Fire!, Aggressive Refrain, a few spear skills, paired with Blazing Finale and Go For the Eyes, while actually raising his spear and putting him on attack will do a lot of really good things.
I think you are trying too hard and you put too many things onto one guy and ultimately fell flat.
If you really want to use motivation - I'd only use it if you bring more then one paragon. That way the Motivation guy can bring sweet stuff like Finale Of Restoration and the Command guy will trigger it like insane with GftE!

Gigashadow

Gigashadow

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Bellevue, WA

W/

I was not impressed with using spears, which is why this guy doesn't attack, and doesn't need to waste attribute points on spear skills. Spear attacks and auto-attacks by themselves just aren't that great compared with the other utility paragons provide from their shouts, and you actually do have to spend a fair amount of time with sub-par auto-attacks to build adrenaline. If you have multiple adrenaline skills on your bar, it's even worse due to the way adrenaline works. No spear skills means none of this is an issue, nor is blocking, or line of sight, blindness, or miss hexes, and he can take some choice abilities from 3 lines, rather than requiring that you use 2 paragons to do so.

I don't think Go for the Eyes is any good at all and I don't know why people are so attached to that skill. The bonus of critting in hard mode is absolutely pitiful, as the base amount is so small to begin with. Its only real use is as energy management or triggering shout finales, but you can get that functionality from more any other number of more useful shouts or abilities.

I will point out that this isn't a theory post, I have actually been running this build, and am comparing it to the standard builds I H'H all of EoTN with.

Crassus Praetor

Crassus Praetor

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

England

Jade Reapers [JD]

W/

If the paragon is attacking the same target as you, surely he would have
the same effect with Splinter Weapon that you would.

Therefore giving him a spear and letting him attack would provide
him with more adrenaline.

However, if Signet of Aggression provides enough adrenaline or you prefer
splinter always on yourself then it's not a big deal but still maybe something worth trying.

I also really dislike Ballad of Restoration... if Finale of Restoration was put in its place and GftE
on a player bar it would mean increased healing albeit single target. Still that's personal preference
but I would definitely make that switch.

Xeng Suey

Xeng Suey

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

Somewhere I belong

Mo/

When i have to play with my paragon in pve (with is rare ocasions) i usually use something like this:

.3 x Paragons (with second professions acording to the mission/area we are facing)
.Order of Vampire Necro (sometimes i equip Strenght of honor in this necro if i take a dedicated frontliner in the build)
.N/A with Assasin promisse/barbs/Mark of Pain Necro/...
.In this place you can chose a suport character or even a dedicated frontliner (warrior with hundred blades or warrior endurance with scythe; wounding strike dervish or an A/D with woundig strike and critial...)
.Prot Monk
.Heal Monk

The team build is not very precise because i alway like to tweak skills in almos every char for each area/mission, but the main ideia remais there
With the correct tweaking of skills you can play almost every area in gw and mobs die rlly easy

oww, almost forgot... scattering is not a problem with this build!

have fun

marmar256

marmar256

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2008

Australia

W/

Try another character running its just a flesh wound and that should be enough for the shout ending.

Crassus Praetor

Crassus Praetor

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

England

Jade Reapers [JD]

W/

I don't see what you mean, It's just a flesh wound is single target
and if used by a hero should only be activated whilst an ally has a condition

Gigashadow

Gigashadow

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Bellevue, WA

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
View Post
My guess?
The rest of your party is so strong that you don't notice this guy's subpar performance. I am guessing he could easily be replaced with other options and this would still work. I have a testing grounds for builds though (vanquishing Grothmar Wardowns), so I can do a good comparison with what I was running before, which used to be a curses/prot necro in his spot. I'm familiar with the kill-time for fighting various groups, as well as what the health bars look like, and how each little fight goes, and it was interesting to see that kill time felt at least as fast, and party-wide degen was so easily handled. Really, this is just a relative comparison to the curses/prot necro I had in his slot before, so maybe a Barbs/Enfeebling Blood/Spiteful-or-Empathic/Aegis/Prot Spirit etc. necro wasn't pulling its weight, and indeed, I didn't think it was, which is why I'm trying this guy out.

I don't know what you see in the spear skills. You will hit a high armored target for about 9 damage with an auto-attack in hard mode. GfTE will make you hit for about 13 or so. The spear skills themselves are nothing to write home about. I were to give up one of his attribute lines, if anything I would making him a secondary /Mo and put smiting on him for removal+AOE damage, rather than add spear mastery. This new guy can definitely be improved, but spear skills just don't do it for me, I just don't see the appeal.

For me, steamrolling PvE is about AOE and/or armor-ignoring damage, and hard-mode 9 damage pewpew single target hits, plus some spear skills, just isn't that impressive. The meat for me is really in the other utility.

I will experiment with Crassus's suggestion of replacing Ballad of Restoration with Finale of Restoration, that sounds worthwhile. Good tip about the splinter weapon too, it's probably not so bad to give him a spear to attack with, even if I leave him at 0 mastery.

Regarding "It's a Flesh Wound!"; I did think of this a long time ago, because hey, it's a utility skill with no cast time that will trigger burning! Unfortunately it didn't work out very well, the hero didn't use it anywhere near as much as I hoped, and it just didn't justify its elite slot.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

The reason why you'd want to run a paragon is so that you get support AND damage on one and the same guy. But because he is able to do that, that also means that his damage dealing capabilities can not compare to a full on damage dealer, while his support capabilities can not compare to a full on supporter.
So if you want your paragon to just support - might as well grab an ER prot ele instead.
When it comes to spear attacks, Vicious Attack has a superb synergy with GftE. Cruel/Stunning (although both elites) - also superb options. Spear Of Lightning - nice damage! Wild Throw - ranged stance removal!
And all this on a guy that has party healing/protection capabilities!

Gigashadow

Gigashadow

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Bellevue, WA

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronSheik View Post
I'm guessing you're mainly a warrior, I didn't want to read everything to find out

But look at swords damage, and look at a spears damage.

Paragon can pull off a warriors damage at range.
There is no comparison, warriors win that one easily today. Warriors can spam dragon slash continually for 20 seconds straight with FGJ up, something paragons have no equivalent of. In addition, I use Strength of Honor, which doesn't work on paragons, so instead of auto-attacking for 9, I auto-attack for 29, and instead of dragon slash adding +38 damage per hit, I am effectively getting +58 damage per hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
The reason why you'd want to run a paragon is so that you get support AND damage on one and the same guy. But because he is able to do that, that also means that his damage dealing capabilities can not compare to a full on damage dealer, while his support capabilities can not compare to a full on supporter.
So if you want your paragon to just support - might as well grab an ER prot ele instead.
When it comes to spear attacks, Vicious Attack has a superb synergy with GftE. Cruel/Stunning (although both elites) - also superb options. Spear Of Lightning - nice damage! Wild Throw - ranged stance removal!
And all this on a guy that has party healing/protection capabilities! I'm not a big fan of ER prot eles, the healer henchmen+N/Rt usually have that covered well enough. ER prot eles don't contribute anything to damage output, whereas this paragon contributes a lot with all the burning. I do consider this paragon to be a part damage dealer part support.

Vicious Attack + GfTE does indeed have great synergy, and is actually a good combo, as long as you realize that the increased critical damage of GfTE is quite small, and that the major benefits of it are really the energy management and the trigger for Vicious Attack. Those two skills together are definitely worthy of consideration, and would by my starting point if I went spears. I do have another way to get deep wound, which is Finish Him! on my warrior, but not all characters do or take Finish Him.

Stunning Strike I'm not a big fan of, as you really need a support structure in place to ensure he can get that much adrenaline quickly, that often includes a dark fury necro, and/or using up a skill slot on Aggressive Refrain (and having heroes spending time and energy curing that condition), and possibly some other adrenaline building trick skills. Personally I don't need Stunning Strike, because I can chain brawling headbutt on anything until it's dead.

Wild Throw; well, you have to hope he used it at the right time, on the right mob (i.e. he has < 7a and needs to hit someone once more to get 7a for wild throw, but can't hit the target he wants to build up adrenaline). If someone is using a block stance, he will have trouble getting the adrenaline for it in the first place. I actually have Sun and Moon slash on my warrior to get by block stances/aegis (and for several other reasons also); what happens is that I start attacking a ranger mob, I get it to 60% health, it puts up its block stance in my face, then I S&M slash and Finish Him!, which pretty much kills it, or if it doesn't, the constant burning does.

Anyway, good debate so far, I will think about Vicious Attack + GfTE replacing the existing energy management mechanisms I have, and play around with spears again. My concern is that I really want this guy to be spamming his shouts all day long (which he currently does well), and not spending a bunch of time attacking, unless the attacks really do something interesting like adding that deep wound. Currently his effectiveness is also unaffected by blind/block/miss/etc. and that would no longer be true. If I take out the motivation line, I may not have enough healing/defense in the overall build any more (as, after all, I don't have Enfeebling Blood/Aegis/etc. in the setup; this character is replacing the necro hero who brought those defensive skills).

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronSheik View Post
I'm guessing you're mainly a warrior, I didn't want to read everything to find out

But look at swords damage, and look at a spears damage.

Paragon can pull off a warriors damage at range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GigaShadow View Post
For me, steamrolling PvE is about AOE and/or armor-ignoring damage, and hard-mode 9 damage pewpew single target hits, plus some spear skills, just isn't that impressive. The meat for me is really in the other utility. Both of you are wrong :<

Shiek, base damage is crap, period. Sword or spear, it doesn't matter.

Giga, spears are not meant to do damage on their own. They are basically a vector for damage buffs. On my necro, I play a MoP caller, and with MoP alone, spear auto-attack is basically doing AoE 40 DPS.

[Soldier's Fury][Blazing Finale][They're on Fire][Go For the Eyes][Stand Your Ground][Fall Back][Bladeturn Refrain][We Shall Return]

I also combo that with barbs, and an OotV/healer in Nightfall and the damage gets pretty insane.

For a warrior, I doubt a spear hero will be as useful as other possibilities, mainly because you don't have a MoP caller available. I'm also guessing as melee, you probably rely more on attack skill damage and SoH, which won't affect spear damage (rather than barbs/MoP).

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

[QUOTE=The Riven;4709730]
Quote:
If you can run with another player try to grab an AP MoP nuker, this allows u to drop the attack skills and just rely on auto attacks as even a 25% ias with a MoP caller will outdamage ever the best Discord/Sabway build.
Sounds like a challenge

[discord][animate bone fiends]

Discord is doing 30 DPS. Bone Fiends are doing 15*10/2 = 75 DPS. With barbs/MoP, bone fiends are doing 10/2*15 = 75 single target DPS and 10/2*40 = 200 AoE DPS. Total, 180 single target DPS and 200 AoE DPS.

When you say MoP caller + para will outdamage discord, you are comparing 2 entire builds vs. 1 spell. What you are doing is called a false dichotomy.

Logic. It works.



edit:
Quote: Originally Posted by Gigashadow View Post
So the build I listed originally, which works well for me, may be totally unworkable to someone coming at it from a paragon perspective. Yeah, but I wasn't discussing the build you posted, I was discussing spear heroes I was just saying that the pitiful base DPS spears do is not really an issue like you make it out to be, in the right environment.

I actually can't really say off hand whether the build you posted will work. You're right of course: different primaries, different play styles....

The Riven

The Riven

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

None worth mentioning

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
View Post


Sounds like a challenge

[discord][animate bone fiends]

Discord is doing 30 DPS. Bone Fiends are doing 15*10/2 = 75 DPS. With barbs/MoP, bone fiends are doing 10/2*15 = 75 single target DPS and 10/2*40 = 200 AoE DPS. Total, 180 single target DPS and 200 AoE DPS.

When you say MoP caller + para will outdamage discord, you are comparing 2 entire builds vs. 1 spell. What you are doing is called a false dichotomy.

Logic. It works
Drop discord and run a MM hero with OotV, there is no reason why u cant still run minions in a non discord build.

Discord as u say is 30 DPS while OOtV is 16 life steal from ALL party members with phys dmg.

There ya go, im comparing 1 elite skill Vs 1 elite skill, on a hero no less.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Riven
View Post
Drop discord and run a MM hero with OotV, there is no reason why u cant still run minions in a non discord build.

Discord as u say is 30 DPS while OOtV is 16 life steal from ALL party members with phys dmg.

There ya go, im comparing 1 elite skill Vs 1 elite skill, on a hero no less. It's only 13, actually, unless you want to run triple Sup runes, blood death AND soul reaping.

1) By taking ootv on a MM, you lose out on a LOT. On an N/Mo, Aegis, prot spirit, convert hex. N/P SYG! for party wide armor buff and Fall Back (you should be running double fall back for VQs anyway).

2) OotV is only worthwhile when you can bring at least ~3+ ranged physicals (~1.5+ if you're a physical yourself). Otherwise, the damage is dominated by discord. If you're a caster (and I am), that's only realistically going to happen in Nightfall and EotN (H/H). By the way, I actually do run OotV in EotN and Nightfall, but in Proph and Factions, there's just no point.

Anyway, tldr: the point is a discorder is not dominated by a paragon hero in damage or overall usefulness. Neither is discord strictly dominated by OotV.

The Riven

The Riven

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

None worth mentioning

P/

I guess it all really depends on your main.

Running as a Paragon (imba) i find im better off with OOtV in most if not all areas of the game, though i can understand why a caster will prefer to utilise other skills on other heros.

Gigashadow

Gigashadow

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Bellevue, WA

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crassus Praetor
View Post
If the paragon is attacking the same target as you, surely he would have
the same effect with Splinter Weapon that you would.

Therefore giving him a spear and letting him attack would provide him with more adrenaline.

However, if Signet of Aggression provides enough adrenaline or you prefer splinter always on yourself then it's not a big deal but still maybe something worth trying.

I also really dislike Ballad of Restoration... if Finale of Restoration was put in its place and GftE
on a player bar it would mean increased healing albeit single target. Still that's personal preference
but I would definitely make that switch. So I tried out your three suggestions.

Giving him a spear and allowing him to attack worked fine. He would get splinter weapon first, before I had closed with the enemy, and attack with it. Zho tended to get second priority. I would get priority over both if I was next to 2 or more enemies.

I then disabled Signet of Aggression and his energy still worked out all right, so he clearly doesn't need to benefit from his own Lyric of Zeal.

I then replaced Lyric of Zeal with Anthem of Envy, which 6 people (3 from Signet of Spirits, me, Zho, paragon) can benefit from. This can make a nice dent in a mob's health while it's above 50% health.

I then replaced Signet of Aggression with Wild Throw. Even though he has 0 spear mastery, this is fine, because Wild Throw is there to kick someone out of a stance, not to do damage. Wild Throw also triggers the various "on attack skill" abilities. I may change it, as I think he may not be building up adrenaline fast enough to trigger those shouts frequently. On the other hand, having a stance remover is pretty nice.

On "Ballad of Restoration" vs "Finale of Restoration", I tried switching to FoR, but Ballad was the clear winner for me. I was getting hurt pretty badly by Charr AOE damage combined with degen (suffering + reaper's mark), and BoR made a noticeable difference stabilizing the health bars. I didn't have deaths, but the bars looked a little scary sometimes. Although I saw that FoR was definitely being used, I couldn't see where it was going, because not once did I see it go on me or any of my heroes. I hope it wasn't putting it on minions.

So now I have:

14 leadership
11 motivation
9 command
2 spear mastery

Song of Restoration {elite}
Ballad of Restoration
Anthem of Envy
Anthem of Disruption
Blazing Finale
Anthem of Weariness
"They're on Fire!"
Wild Throw

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Riven
View Post
Forgive me if im being thick but by this i take it your posting NM builds? Like I said, HM.
I've VQ enough areas with it to max out Sunspear in C3 and he is using the same thing in other chapters now.

If I do run Orders, I end up running a necro. Just not Vampire because Pain does the job equally well, while opening up the elite slot for a monk elite.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigashadow
I don't think Go for the Eyes is any good at all and I don't know why people are so attached to that skill. The bonus of critting in hard mode is absolutely pitiful, as the base amount is so small to begin with. Its only real use is as energy management or triggering shout finales, but you can get that functionality from more any other number of more useful shouts or abilities.
There are a few factors concerning "Go For The Eyes!" usefulness. For starters the rate in which you inflict critical hits is either increased or decreased depending on the level difference between you and the enemy. Naturally criticals become rarer come endgame where most enemies are level 24+, or in the case of the majority of hardmode, 26+. "Go For The Eyes!" dramatically increases that rate to the point where it's practically a guarantee.

How much damage the critical actually adds can be debated. Consider that a critical hit deals maximum weapon damage and a little extra. I can't for the life of me find how much is added and all the official wiki says is a 1.414 multiplier onto the weapon's damage; it doesn't indicate the significance of weapon mastery level over 12. Anyway, weapons have a range of damage and you will notice that your damage is never the same with every attack, sometimes higher sometimes lower. "Go For The Eyes!" as such will occasionally cause a substantial increase in damage when one of those lower hits becomes a critical, most notable on weapons with a large damage range. That's not to suggest the impact isn't significant without the present of scythes and axes but it does lead to the next point.

"Go For The Eyes!" usefulness increases expontentially based on the number of physicals in the group. What may seem like a rather small amount of damage compared to +damage skills you have to consider that each physical is getting that additional critical damage. Now I have no idea what level of Spear Mastery you were using to get:

Quote: Originally Posted by Gigashadow You will hit a high armored target for about 9 damage with an auto-attack in hard mode. GfTE will make you hit for about 13 or so. My typical group would consist of five physical characters, six with consumables, someone pushing out orders, and two healers. Assuming a critical hit was just 4 extra damage (it's definitely more) that's 20 extra damage if all five critical. Consider also the point in the second paragraph there as well, the hidden increase that you can't factor in from low hits suddenly being max hits and then some. Now for a skill that can be pumped out every 4 strikes of adrenaline, 2 with Dark Fury, 1 with Infuriating Heat/"For Great Justice!" and Dark Fury, it's a strong skill. When it had the 4 second recharge there would be some validity to saying it wasn't that great since the frequency of use was a lot lower. At that time I favored Anthem of Envy for the +damage when speccing into Command.

As a side note:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigashadow
high armored target Do not argue a point on how much a skill hits an armored target for. The first targets are always what can be killed the fastest, the casters. Enemy physicals are left till the end at the point where you're already assured victory. Weakness, Aegis, "Save Yourselves!"; don't concern yourself with the damage dealt to a target that doesn't even pose a threat to the group.

Paul Dawg

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2008

House of Myrthe (HoMe)

W/

That's not why you go after casters first. Killing a dolyak rider can take ten times as long as killing one of their stone summit grunts. But taking out that dolyak rider is like cutting the heart out of the group. You go after casters first because they can either cause tons of damage with spells or prolong the battle by constantly healing the entire enemy group. (In PvE, you're likely to lose long battles of attrition because you and your heroes will eventually run out of energy before the AI foes will.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
The first targets are always what can be killed the fastest, the casters. Enemy physicals are left till the end at the point where you're already assured victory.

Paul Dawg

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2008

House of Myrthe (HoMe)

W/

Right, THAT I agree with. At first you said that casters go first because they're easiest to kill, which isn't always the case.

distilledwill

distilledwill

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Blighty

The Legion of the Blue Blade

R/Mo

Whenever I'm playing on my paragon I always run as an Imbagon, then a motivation para, a cruel spear para and my final is an N/Rt build I made:

[Well of Power][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Splinter Weapon][Strip Enchantment][Masochism][Foul Feast][Death Pact Signet]

Never runs out of energy, provides healing/energy regen/condition removal for the whole team and throws out splinter and orders. Tasty Jazz.

Buns United

Buns United

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2006

Holland, ZHZ

R/W

Couple of weeks ago I tried an 'Imbagon Hero' build, works pretty well considering I had no source of "SY!" in the team setup.

[build prof=P comma=11+1+1 lea=11+1 spe=8+1 pve]["Stand Your Ground!"][Vicious Attack]["Go for the Eyes!"]["Find Their Weakness!"][Soldier's Fury]["They're on Fire!"][Blazing Finale]["We Shall Return!"][/build]

Increased party members' armour level, can save the team when shit hits the fan, does damage through constant burning and adds deep wound. What's not to love?

*edit* also increased minion's damage, due to +91% chance to crit from gfte, which is spammed every third attack (while under 33% ias).

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

Micro´d Blazing Finale ? last time a put it on my hero he didnt use it so good but it makes a good couple with TAOF! , i was thinking of that couple or Burning Refrain .

Carnivorous Cupcake

Carnivorous Cupcake

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2009

Lolrus League [lol]

A/E

Tenebrae


Yep, you have to micro Blazing Finale for best results. I have also getting an impression that heroes will cast it on a target that is taking considerable pressure by themselves.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigashadow
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I was not impressed with using spears, which is why this guy doesn't attack, and doesn't need to waste attribute points on spear skills. Spear attacks and auto-attacks by themselves just aren't that great compared with the other utility paragons provide from their shouts, and you actually do have to spend a fair amount of time with sub-par auto-attacks to build adrenaline. If you have multiple adrenaline skills on your bar, it's even worse due to the way adrenaline works. No spear skills means none of this is an issue, nor is blocking, or line of sight, blindness, or miss hexes, and he can take some choice abilities from 3 lines, rather than requiring that you use 2 paragons to do so.

I don't think Go for the Eyes is any good at all and I don't know why people are so attached to that skill. The bonus of critting in hard mode is absolutely pitiful, as the base amount is so small to begin with. Its only real use is as energy management or triggering shout finales, but you can get that functionality from more any other number of more useful shouts or abilities.

I will point out that this isn't a theory post, I have actually been running this build, and am comparing it to the standard builds I H'H all of EoTN with. At the moment I am running two paragon heroes with my MoP nuker. The Command is using Burning Finale and the Motigon uses Finale of Restoration... USING spears of course, but no AR as heroes have a hard time upkeeping before getting to the next mob. Waste of energy, so I swapped it for Glowing signet to help when using We Shall Return/ other chants or shouts.
I don't understand the problem with spears... They make alot of damage while he's shouting. All down to preference I guess. 2xpara 1xMM or OoV.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

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Join Date: May 2008

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Yes, I have actually started doing this for a while now once I realised. AR is 100% maintained now with one copy of fall back on my command paragon and one on my MM. If I have one, that is.

Khomet Si Netjer

Khomet Si Netjer

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Join Date: Apr 2007

The Angelic Guard

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Quote:
Originally Posted by distilledwill
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Whenever I'm playing on my paragon I always run as an Imbagon, then a motivation para, a cruel spear para and my final is an N/Rt build I made:

[Well of Power][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Splinter Weapon][Strip Enchantment][Masochism][Foul Feast][Death Pact Signet]

Never runs out of energy, provides healing/energy regen/condition removal for the whole team and throws out splinter and orders. Tasty Jazz.
I like this idea, I'm using the inverse of it though. Like some others here I found that the D/N Orders was suboptimal (though I vanquished almost everywhere with it), I still thought that there must be something better. With the recent buffs to ritualist skills I found the answer. XD
Here is the support hero build I am using now, works great with any physical damage dealer especially those which use adrenaline. Why Rt/N and not the reverse? High channeling means more damage from Splinter, more damage from spirits (as well as stronger spirits), and better energy gain from Spirit Siphon. You lose soul reaping but IMO it is worth it. With five spirits you have a nice spirit-wall that tends to draw aggro and keep them off of your party. Unlike minions, the spirits work everywhere, so no need to retool this for different areas. I also bring Anthem of Disruption on one of the paras (my typical team is 3P, 1 Rt/N, 2R, 2Mo if henching) because as someone else noted here already, anthem of disruption affects spirits. This means that you have 3P, 2R, and 4 attack spirits interrupting things constantly. I didn't think it would have such a dramatic effect but it does... try it out and you'll see what I mean.

Rt/N; channeling 12+1+1, blood 11, spawning 6+1, restoration 2
[Splinter Weapon][Spirit Siphon][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Signet of Spirits][Bloodsong][Agony][Flesh Of My Flesh]

use blood or channeling staff with +20% enchanting if you have it. Energy is fine as is though Well of Power is a good option if you want to give up Signet of Spirits. You can also bring Offering of Spirit if someone else in the group is bringing Signet of Spirits. I haven't found any negatives to this build yet. Feels *much* stronger than D/N, partly because of the way the spirits keep things distracted. Constant mass armor ignoring damage from spirits, splinter, and orders are a huge win and D/N only gives one of those three.

Khomet Si Netjer

Khomet Si Netjer

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

The Angelic Guard

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You mentioned that "spirits slow you down", but clearly you have not used ritualists since the update. All binding rituals cast in 3/4 second now, you can summon 3 spirits before anyone finishes casting an Orders spell or lands their first spear throw.

I've tried N/Rt as well, for the same reasons you mentioned, and while it works well I think this is better. My argument is that splinter + orders + spirits is better than orders alone. Certainly the damage from splinter weapon outweighs the extra damage from orders in my experience. Condition removal via foul feast is unnecessary because one of the paragons is almost always carrying Song of Purification.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
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You mentioned that "spirits slow you down", but clearly you have not used ritualists since the update. All binding rituals cast in 3/4 second now, you can summon 3 spirits before anyone finishes casting an Orders spell or lands their first spear throw.

I've tried N/Rt as well, for the same reasons you mentioned, and while it works well I think this is better. My argument is that splinter + orders + spirits is better than orders alone. Certainly the damage from splinter weapon outweighs the extra damage from orders in my experience. Condition removal via foul feast is unnecessary because one of the paragons is almost always carrying Song of Purification. I don't run Song of Purification, and I don't know how many do. My Motigon runs Song of Restoration if it gets a look in at all. FF is an optimal skill also for the Orders to maintain energy.

With a 20% faster-casting blood staff, most of the time my hero will be casting OoP or DP and it will be taken into effect near-instantly; Once the physicals have run into the mob. When you cast SoS, you get a delay where the spirits will not attack and must configure themselves. This is what slows you down. Also, SoS casts in 1 second, not 3/4.

Adding spirits to an Orders build isn't going to change all too much, with the recharge of the spirits and speed you'll be going through the mobs anyway.

Splinter IS good, but it's good enough at 10 Channeling, or there abouts. You also forgot Warmonger's Weapon which is a great skill for shutting down casters.

Khomet Si Netjer

Khomet Si Netjer

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Join Date: Apr 2007

The Angelic Guard

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warmonger's is great, no argument there... but my whole group (and the spirits too) gain interrupt capability with Anthem of Disruption so I don't carry Warmongers.

re: song of purification, it's pretty common on paragon teams, party-wide condition removal for free is hard to pass up. this also means that other characters don't need to waste energy trying to remove conditions.

re: spirits, I like the psuedo-minion-master effect that the spirits have, they tend to draw fire from the enemy and lessen pressure on your team. I have never noticed any significant slowdown but to each his own. Before the update, definitely... but now the spirits cast very quickly, so not an issue anymore.

Splinter Weapon @ 14 is 5 x 47 AoE damage, so 235 armor ignoring AoE damage for 5 energy. Splinter Weapon @ 10 is 4 x 35 AoE damage, or 140 AoE damage total, so it is a big difference. That is a much bigger difference than Order of Pain @ 14 (+15 damage) and Order of Pain @ 11 (+13 damage), so this made the choice easy for me. This math also shows why Rt/R Splinter Barrage does much more damage than R/Rt, most of the damage is coming from Splinter Weapon and not from Barrage.
(note, I did not compare the skills @ 16 since I don't use superior runes on any heroes)

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

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Yes, each to his own. I have Superior runes on my necs. ER has Sup ES rune and the rest have minors.