Paragon + N/Rt build setup
Gigashadow
Maybe like me you're bored of running the same old-but effective thing as you vanquish the universe, and you'd like to try something new. Here's a paragon build I've been using for a few days now.
I'll list the skills in the build first, but it does require a little explanation, and there is a useful synergy with one of your other heroes you will probably want to exploit.
12+2 Leadership
10+1 Motivation
8+1 Command
**This character does NOT attack, set it to passive. Do not give it a martial weapon, give it a (absolutely useless) caster weapon, otherwise heroes will cast splinter weapon on it.**
Song of Restoration {elite}
Ballad of Restoration
Lyric of Zeal <-- uses adrenaline
Anthem of Disruption
Anthem of Weariness
Blazing Finale
"They're on Fire!"
Signet of Aggression <-- provides adrenaline
The basic idea is burning. I have found Blazing Finale to be insanely good, and heroes are very very good about using it. As you charge in to a group of enemies, Blazing Finale will be cast on you almost immediately, even if nothing is burning yet.
The huge number of shouts/chants is here to ensure that something is ending on everyone almost constantly (plus, you may be using Save Yourselves! as well), triggering 7 full seconds of burning. The hero can and does keep up "They're On Fire" easily, which is a 33% damage reduction. This is a very strong skill, as unlike Save Yourselves!, as far as I know it affects ALL damage including +attack skill damage, damage from skills such as Visions of Regret, Shatter Hex, etc. Unlike SY! it affects you as well, an effect which I can say has been very noticeable. It of course stacks with SY as well.
You can also trigger renewed burning at will, by using an attack skill whenever Anthem of Disruption or Weariness is on you, forcing the shout to end on you. If you are paying attention, you can control the triggering of Anthem of Disruption to use it as an interrupt.
The sort-of-dependency this guy has that I was talking about earlier, was on you having a N/Rt or Rt/* with Signet of Spirits. This is because Anthem of Disruption and Weariness are two of the small number of chants that affect spirits. This means your 3 spirits will be (randomly) interrupting skills and causing weakness. Any physical henchies you brought will also benefit from these, and of course your Signet of Spirits guy will benefit from Lyric of Zeal as well.
Anthem of Disruption and Weariness may not seem like their mostly random functionality is that amazing, but those skills serve three purposes. A bit of energy management in Weariness's case, triggering burning (which happens very shortly after being applied to melee characters), and then their actual effect.
The mutual synergy between Lyric of Zeal and Signet of Aggression ensures this guy has all the energy he needs, as well as providing some to other characters with signets.
This guy provides 2 good partywide heals, and between him and a N/Rt with Life and PwK, dealing with partywide damage has not been a problem.
Note, what I outline below probably won't work for you unless you are a melee, as you can't rely on the awful hero melee AI to be in the optimal place. But after some vanquishes and quick tests in my personal builds testing ground of Grothmar Wardowns, it's working out very well and feels very strong. The longer a battle goes on, the more people the paragon will have cast Blazing Finale on; it's not uncommon to spin the camera around and look in the back lines, and see a 2-3 burning mobs chasing Mhenlo around.
I run the paragon instead of a curses necro, as I felt the curses necro spent way too much time spamming Barbs on everything, and while Barbs is a good skill (especially with minions), as is Enfeebling Blood, I didn't feel satisfied with the curses necro overall.
So right now I am running:
P/ - Leadership/Motivation/Command paragon above.
N/Rt - Sabway N/Rt with Signet of Spirits, Splinter Weapon
N/Mo - Smiter/Minion bomber, with Rip [email protected] I am addicted to Strength of Honor.
Interesting things to note; there are no hexes in the above setup, so you don't need to worry about removal or taking a shatter hex/HEV in the face. There is no aegis, prot spirit, or shield of absorption, which are all things I thought I wouldn't be able to live without in PvE, but which (so far) it turns out I actually can.
Playstyle-wise, you need to be very aggressive with this, running into a cluster of mobs first to start the pretty much permanent burning.
I'll list the skills in the build first, but it does require a little explanation, and there is a useful synergy with one of your other heroes you will probably want to exploit.
12+2 Leadership
10+1 Motivation
8+1 Command
**This character does NOT attack, set it to passive. Do not give it a martial weapon, give it a (absolutely useless) caster weapon, otherwise heroes will cast splinter weapon on it.**
Song of Restoration {elite}
Ballad of Restoration
Lyric of Zeal <-- uses adrenaline
Anthem of Disruption
Anthem of Weariness
Blazing Finale
"They're on Fire!"
Signet of Aggression <-- provides adrenaline
The basic idea is burning. I have found Blazing Finale to be insanely good, and heroes are very very good about using it. As you charge in to a group of enemies, Blazing Finale will be cast on you almost immediately, even if nothing is burning yet.
The huge number of shouts/chants is here to ensure that something is ending on everyone almost constantly (plus, you may be using Save Yourselves! as well), triggering 7 full seconds of burning. The hero can and does keep up "They're On Fire" easily, which is a 33% damage reduction. This is a very strong skill, as unlike Save Yourselves!, as far as I know it affects ALL damage including +attack skill damage, damage from skills such as Visions of Regret, Shatter Hex, etc. Unlike SY! it affects you as well, an effect which I can say has been very noticeable. It of course stacks with SY as well.
You can also trigger renewed burning at will, by using an attack skill whenever Anthem of Disruption or Weariness is on you, forcing the shout to end on you. If you are paying attention, you can control the triggering of Anthem of Disruption to use it as an interrupt.
The sort-of-dependency this guy has that I was talking about earlier, was on you having a N/Rt or Rt/* with Signet of Spirits. This is because Anthem of Disruption and Weariness are two of the small number of chants that affect spirits. This means your 3 spirits will be (randomly) interrupting skills and causing weakness. Any physical henchies you brought will also benefit from these, and of course your Signet of Spirits guy will benefit from Lyric of Zeal as well.
Anthem of Disruption and Weariness may not seem like their mostly random functionality is that amazing, but those skills serve three purposes. A bit of energy management in Weariness's case, triggering burning (which happens very shortly after being applied to melee characters), and then their actual effect.
The mutual synergy between Lyric of Zeal and Signet of Aggression ensures this guy has all the energy he needs, as well as providing some to other characters with signets.
This guy provides 2 good partywide heals, and between him and a N/Rt with Life and PwK, dealing with partywide damage has not been a problem.
Note, what I outline below probably won't work for you unless you are a melee, as you can't rely on the awful hero melee AI to be in the optimal place. But after some vanquishes and quick tests in my personal builds testing ground of Grothmar Wardowns, it's working out very well and feels very strong. The longer a battle goes on, the more people the paragon will have cast Blazing Finale on; it's not uncommon to spin the camera around and look in the back lines, and see a 2-3 burning mobs chasing Mhenlo around.
I run the paragon instead of a curses necro, as I felt the curses necro spent way too much time spamming Barbs on everything, and while Barbs is a good skill (especially with minions), as is Enfeebling Blood, I didn't feel satisfied with the curses necro overall.
So right now I am running:
P/ - Leadership/Motivation/Command paragon above.
N/Rt - Sabway N/Rt with Signet of Spirits, Splinter Weapon
N/Mo - Smiter/Minion bomber, with Rip [email protected] I am addicted to Strength of Honor.
Interesting things to note; there are no hexes in the above setup, so you don't need to worry about removal or taking a shatter hex/HEV in the face. There is no aegis, prot spirit, or shield of absorption, which are all things I thought I wouldn't be able to live without in PvE, but which (so far) it turns out I actually can.
Playstyle-wise, you need to be very aggressive with this, running into a cluster of mobs first to start the pretty much permanent burning.
upier
The biggest problem that I see is simply the fact that giving this guy They're on Fire!, Aggressive Refrain, a few spear skills, paired with Blazing Finale and Go For the Eyes, while actually raising his spear and putting him on attack will do a lot of really good things.
I think you are trying too hard and you put too many things onto one guy and ultimately fell flat.
If you really want to use motivation - I'd only use it if you bring more then one paragon. That way the Motivation guy can bring sweet stuff like Finale Of Restoration and the Command guy will trigger it like insane with GftE!
I think you are trying too hard and you put too many things onto one guy and ultimately fell flat.
If you really want to use motivation - I'd only use it if you bring more then one paragon. That way the Motivation guy can bring sweet stuff like Finale Of Restoration and the Command guy will trigger it like insane with GftE!
Gigashadow
I was not impressed with using spears, which is why this guy doesn't attack, and doesn't need to waste attribute points on spear skills. Spear attacks and auto-attacks by themselves just aren't that great compared with the other utility paragons provide from their shouts, and you actually do have to spend a fair amount of time with sub-par auto-attacks to build adrenaline. If you have multiple adrenaline skills on your bar, it's even worse due to the way adrenaline works. No spear skills means none of this is an issue, nor is blocking, or line of sight, blindness, or miss hexes, and he can take some choice abilities from 3 lines, rather than requiring that you use 2 paragons to do so.
I don't think Go for the Eyes is any good at all and I don't know why people are so attached to that skill. The bonus of critting in hard mode is absolutely pitiful, as the base amount is so small to begin with. Its only real use is as energy management or triggering shout finales, but you can get that functionality from more any other number of more useful shouts or abilities.
I will point out that this isn't a theory post, I have actually been running this build, and am comparing it to the standard builds I H'H all of EoTN with.
I don't think Go for the Eyes is any good at all and I don't know why people are so attached to that skill. The bonus of critting in hard mode is absolutely pitiful, as the base amount is so small to begin with. Its only real use is as energy management or triggering shout finales, but you can get that functionality from more any other number of more useful shouts or abilities.
I will point out that this isn't a theory post, I have actually been running this build, and am comparing it to the standard builds I H'H all of EoTN with.
Crassus Praetor
If the paragon is attacking the same target as you, surely he would have
the same effect with Splinter Weapon that you would.
Therefore giving him a spear and letting him attack would provide
him with more adrenaline.
However, if Signet of Aggression provides enough adrenaline or you prefer
splinter always on yourself then it's not a big deal but still maybe something worth trying.
I also really dislike Ballad of Restoration... if Finale of Restoration was put in its place and GftE
on a player bar it would mean increased healing albeit single target. Still that's personal preference
but I would definitely make that switch.
the same effect with Splinter Weapon that you would.
Therefore giving him a spear and letting him attack would provide
him with more adrenaline.
However, if Signet of Aggression provides enough adrenaline or you prefer
splinter always on yourself then it's not a big deal but still maybe something worth trying.
I also really dislike Ballad of Restoration... if Finale of Restoration was put in its place and GftE
on a player bar it would mean increased healing albeit single target. Still that's personal preference
but I would definitely make that switch.
Xeng Suey
When i have to play with my paragon in pve (with is rare ocasions) i usually use something like this:
.3 x Paragons (with second professions acording to the mission/area we are facing)
.Order of Vampire Necro (sometimes i equip Strenght of honor in this necro if i take a dedicated frontliner in the build)
.N/A with Assasin promisse/barbs/Mark of Pain Necro/...
.In this place you can chose a suport character or even a dedicated frontliner (warrior with hundred blades or warrior endurance with scythe; wounding strike dervish or an A/D with woundig strike and critial...)
.Prot Monk
.Heal Monk
The team build is not very precise because i alway like to tweak skills in almos every char for each area/mission, but the main ideia remais there
With the correct tweaking of skills you can play almost every area in gw and mobs die rlly easy
oww, almost forgot... scattering is not a problem with this build!
have fun
.3 x Paragons (with second professions acording to the mission/area we are facing)
.Order of Vampire Necro (sometimes i equip Strenght of honor in this necro if i take a dedicated frontliner in the build)
.N/A with Assasin promisse/barbs/Mark of Pain Necro/...
.In this place you can chose a suport character or even a dedicated frontliner (warrior with hundred blades or warrior endurance with scythe; wounding strike dervish or an A/D with woundig strike and critial...)
.Prot Monk
.Heal Monk
The team build is not very precise because i alway like to tweak skills in almos every char for each area/mission, but the main ideia remais there
With the correct tweaking of skills you can play almost every area in gw and mobs die rlly easy
oww, almost forgot... scattering is not a problem with this build!
have fun
upier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigashadow
I will point out that this isn't a theory post, I have actually been running this build, and am comparing it to the standard builds I H'H all of EoTN with.
My guess?
The rest of your party is so strong that you don't notice this guy's subpar performance. I am guessing he could easily be replaced with other options and this would still work.
The rest of your party is so strong that you don't notice this guy's subpar performance. I am guessing he could easily be replaced with other options and this would still work.
marmar256
Try another character running its just a flesh wound and that should be enough for the shout ending.
Crassus Praetor
I don't see what you mean, It's just a flesh wound is single target
and if used by a hero should only be activated whilst an ally has a condition
and if used by a hero should only be activated whilst an ally has a condition
IronSheik
upier
The reason why you'd want to run a paragon is so that you get support AND damage on one and the same guy. But because he is able to do that, that also means that his damage dealing capabilities can not compare to a full on damage dealer, while his support capabilities can not compare to a full on supporter.
So if you want your paragon to just support - might as well grab an ER prot ele instead.
When it comes to spear attacks, Vicious Attack has a superb synergy with GftE. Cruel/Stunning (although both elites) - also superb options. Spear Of Lightning - nice damage! Wild Throw - ranged stance removal!
And all this on a guy that has party healing/protection capabilities!
So if you want your paragon to just support - might as well grab an ER prot ele instead.
When it comes to spear attacks, Vicious Attack has a superb synergy with GftE. Cruel/Stunning (although both elites) - also superb options. Spear Of Lightning - nice damage! Wild Throw - ranged stance removal!
And all this on a guy that has party healing/protection capabilities!
Gigashadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronSheik
But look at swords damage, and look at a spears damage.
Paragon can pull off a warriors damage at range.
Quote:
[discord][animate bone fiends]
Discord is doing 30 DPS. Bone Fiends are doing 15*10/2 = 75 DPS. With barbs/MoP, bone fiends are doing 10/2*15 = 75 single target DPS and 10/2*40 = 200 AoE DPS. Total, 180 single target DPS and 200 AoE DPS.
When you say MoP caller + para will outdamage discord, you are comparing 2 entire builds vs. 1 spell. What you are doing is called a false dichotomy.
Logic. It works.
edit:
Quote: Originally Posted by Gigashadow
So the build I listed originally, which works well for me, may be totally unworkable to someone coming at it from a paragon perspective.
Yeah, but I wasn't discussing the build you posted, I was discussing spear heroes I was just saying that the pitiful base DPS spears do is not really an issue like you make it out to be, in the right environment.
I actually can't really say off hand whether the build you posted will work. You're right of course: different primaries, different play styles....
I actually can't really say off hand whether the build you posted will work. You're right of course: different primaries, different play styles....
The Riven
I guess it all really depends on your main.
Running as a Paragon (imba) i find im better off with OOtV in most if not all areas of the game, though i can understand why a caster will prefer to utilise other skills on other heros.
Running as a Paragon (imba) i find im better off with OOtV in most if not all areas of the game, though i can understand why a caster will prefer to utilise other skills on other heros.
upier
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigashadow
How much damage the critical actually adds can be debated. Consider that a critical hit deals maximum weapon damage and a little extra. I can't for the life of me find how much is added and all the official wiki says is a 1.414 multiplier onto the weapon's damage; it doesn't indicate the significance of weapon mastery level over 12. Anyway, weapons have a range of damage and you will notice that your damage is never the same with every attack, sometimes higher sometimes lower. "Go For The Eyes!" as such will occasionally cause a substantial increase in damage when one of those lower hits becomes a critical, most notable on weapons with a large damage range. That's not to suggest the impact isn't significant without the present of scythes and axes but it does lead to the next point.
"Go For The Eyes!" usefulness increases expontentially based on the number of physicals in the group. What may seem like a rather small amount of damage compared to +damage skills you have to consider that each physical is getting that additional critical damage. Now I have no idea what level of Spear Mastery you were using to get:
Quote: Originally Posted by Gigashadow You will hit a high armored target for about 9 damage with an auto-attack in hard mode. GfTE will make you hit for about 13 or so. My typical group would consist of five physical characters, six with consumables, someone pushing out orders, and two healers. Assuming a critical hit was just 4 extra damage (it's definitely more) that's 20 extra damage if all five critical. Consider also the point in the second paragraph there as well, the hidden increase that you can't factor in from low hits suddenly being max hits and then some. Now for a skill that can be pumped out every 4 strikes of adrenaline, 2 with Dark Fury, 1 with Infuriating Heat/"For Great Justice!" and Dark Fury, it's a strong skill. When it had the 4 second recharge there would be some validity to saying it wasn't that great since the frequency of use was a lot lower. At that time I favored Anthem of Envy for the +damage when speccing into Command.
As a side note:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigashadow
high armored target
Do not argue a point on how much a skill hits an armored target for. The first targets are always what can be killed the fastest, the casters. Enemy physicals are left till the end at the point where you're already assured victory. Weakness, Aegis, "Save Yourselves!"; don't concern yourself with the damage dealt to a target that doesn't even pose a threat to the group.
Paul Dawg
That's not why you go after casters first. Killing a dolyak rider can take ten times as long as killing one of their stone summit grunts. But taking out that dolyak rider is like cutting the heart out of the group. You go after casters first because they can either cause tons of damage with spells or prolong the battle by constantly healing the entire enemy group. (In PvE, you're likely to lose long battles of attrition because you and your heroes will eventually run out of energy before the AI foes will.)
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Quote: The first targets are always what can be killed the fastest, the casters. Enemy physicals are left till the end at the point where you're already assured victory.
Paul Dawg
Right, THAT I agree with. At first you said that casters go first because they're easiest to kill, which isn't always the case.
distilledwill
Whenever I'm playing on my paragon I always run as an Imbagon, then a motivation para, a cruel spear para and my final is an N/Rt build I made:
[Well of Power][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Splinter Weapon][Strip Enchantment][Masochism][Foul Feast][Death Pact Signet] Never runs out of energy, provides healing/energy regen/condition removal for the whole team and throws out splinter and orders. Tasty Jazz. Buns United
Couple of weeks ago I tried an 'Imbagon Hero' build, works pretty well considering I had no source of "SY!" in the team setup.
[build prof=P comma=11+1+1 lea=11+1 spe=8+1 pve]["Stand Your Ground!"][Vicious Attack]["Go for the Eyes!"]["Find Their Weakness!"][Soldier's Fury]["They're on Fire!"][Blazing Finale]["We Shall Return!"][/build] Increased party members' armour level, can save the team when shit hits the fan, does damage through constant burning and adds deep wound. What's not to love? *edit* also increased minion's damage, due to +91% chance to crit from gfte, which is spammed every third attack (while under 33% ias). Tenebrae
Micro´d Blazing Finale ? last time a put it on my hero he didnt use it so good but it makes a good couple with TAOF! , i was thinking of that couple or Burning Refrain .
Carnivorous Cupcake
Tenebrae
Yep, you have to micro Blazing Finale for best results. I have also getting an impression that heroes will cast it on a target that is taking considerable pressure by themselves. Improvavel
Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
USING spears of course, but no AR as heroes have a hard time upkeeping before getting to the next mob. Waste of energy, so I swapped it for Glowing signet to help when using We Shall Return/ other chants or shouts.
If you use fall back, the paragons will keep ar with np.
HigherMinion
Yes, I have actually started doing this for a while now once I realised. AR is 100% maintained now with one copy of fall back on my command paragon and one on my MM. If I have one, that is.
Khomet Si Netjer
You mentioned that "spirits slow you down", but clearly you have not used ritualists since the update. All binding rituals cast in 3/4 second now, you can summon 3 spirits before anyone finishes casting an Orders spell or lands their first spear throw.
I've tried N/Rt as well, for the same reasons you mentioned, and while it works well I think this is better. My argument is that splinter + orders + spirits is better than orders alone. Certainly the damage from splinter weapon outweighs the extra damage from orders in my experience. Condition removal via foul feast is unnecessary because one of the paragons is almost always carrying Song of Purification. Khomet Si Netjer
warmonger's is great, no argument there... but my whole group (and the spirits too) gain interrupt capability with Anthem of Disruption so I don't carry Warmongers.
re: song of purification, it's pretty common on paragon teams, party-wide condition removal for free is hard to pass up. this also means that other characters don't need to waste energy trying to remove conditions. re: spirits, I like the psuedo-minion-master effect that the spirits have, they tend to draw fire from the enemy and lessen pressure on your team. I have never noticed any significant slowdown but to each his own. Before the update, definitely... but now the spirits cast very quickly, so not an issue anymore. Splinter Weapon @ 14 is 5 x 47 AoE damage, so 235 armor ignoring AoE damage for 5 energy. Splinter Weapon @ 10 is 4 x 35 AoE damage, or 140 AoE damage total, so it is a big difference. That is a much bigger difference than Order of Pain @ 14 (+15 damage) and Order of Pain @ 11 (+13 damage), so this made the choice easy for me. This math also shows why Rt/R Splinter Barrage does much more damage than R/Rt, most of the damage is coming from Splinter Weapon and not from Barrage. (note, I did not compare the skills @ 16 since I don't use superior runes on any heroes) HigherMinion
Yes, each to his own. I have Superior runes on my necs. ER has Sup ES rune and the rest have minors.
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