...Holy *bleep*...

reaper with no name

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

On a whim, I was rechecking some calculations I made in this thread, and I went and checked it all in excel.

They didn't add up. In fact, I recieved a completely unexpected result.

The dervish beat the scythe sin.

I couldn't believe it, so I went and checked again. I couldn't find anything wrong with my calculations the second time around. So either I missed something, or the dervish just did the impossible. Either way, I'll put it all here so that you guys can inspect it and point out any flaws in my math.

Assuming 16 scythe mastery for derv
Assuming 12 scythe mastery for sin and 16 critical strikes
Assuming max ranks
Assuming derv is using By Ural's Hammer and Heart of Fury
Assuming sin is using Critical Agility

[AoHM][Asuran Scan][By Ural's Hammer][Heart of Fury]
[AoHM][Asuran Scan][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Way of the Master]

Crit rate of derv with 16 scythe mastery is 22.9%
Crit rate of sin with 16 crit strikes and 12 scythe mastery is 17.0% + 16% = 33%
Way of the Master adds +35% to crit rate
Critical Eye adds 16% to crit rate
Total sin crit rate = 17+16+16+35=84%

Damage Rating (DR) (derv) = 5*12 + 2*(16-12) + 32 = 100
Damage Rating (DR) (sin) = 5*12 + 32 = 92

Average damage of scythe = 25 (avg of 9 and 41)
Raw damage (RD) = crit dmg + non-crit dmg
RD (derv) = 25*(1-.229) + 41*.229 = 28.664
RD (sin) = 25*(1-.84) + 41*.84 = 38.44

Effective Damage (ED) = RD*DMulti*AE
DMulti (derv)= 1.2(customized)*1.15(inscription)*1.75(AS)*1.25(Ur al) = 3.01875
DMulti (sin)=1.2(customized)*1.15(inscription)*1.75(AS)=2 .415

Armor Effect (AE) for 60 AL = 2^((DR-AL)/40)

Derv against 60 AL = 28.664*3.01875*2^((100-60)/40)=173.0589
DPS (derv) = 147.9135897

Sin against 60 AL = 38.44*2.415*2^((92-60)/40)=161.6309444
DPS (sin) = 138.1461063

It appears that in the other thread I was off by a bit in the decimals I used for some of the crit%s and I accidentally added in the Ural bonus for the sin even though it was using crit agility instead.

If we give the sin By Ural's Hammer instead of critical agility it looks like this:

DMulti is same as for derv

Sin against 60 AL = 202.0386806
DPS = 115.4506746

But then the sin is still doing less DPS because the derv is getting off 4 attacks for every 3 the sin does (or however many it is).

So the only options for IAS the sin has besides crit agility is Onslaught, Whirling Charge, and Pious Fury (none of which are 33%). the Sin isn't using his elite, so Onslaught seems the best (lasts as long as HoF). It requires speccing into wind prayers, though. So with a 12-9-10 spread (assuming a +1 to crit strikes from helment), the sin comes out this way:

crit rate = 17+11+23+10 = 61% crit rate

raw damage = 25*(1-.61) + 41*.61 = 34.76

other things are same, so...

ED = 34.76*3.01875*2^((92-60)/40)=182.6967881
DPS = 139.463197

Still not enough to beat the derv. And this is in addition to the fact that the derv's bar has more room for attack skills and those attack skills will do more damage than if a sin tried to use them thanks to higher scythe mastery.

So...unless I've made a mistake somewhere (if I have, somebody please correct me)...the dervish actually is better with a scythe than an assassin.

English Warrior

English Warrior

LEET HAXXOR!

Join Date: Feb 2007

Random Arena

N/A

derv beats assassin at its own game? shocking i couldn't guess considering the derv primary uses a scythe.....

Also different builds will make ur results differ.

zelgadissan

zelgadissan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2008

The Warrior Priests [WP]

Me/Rt

The only thing I see that's missing is that Heart of Fury isn't a perma-IAS like Critical Agility is. Even at 16 Mysticism, it's 21s duration on a 30r. Unless I just missed it, I don't see that in there anywhere.

Also, your math is off on the way that Critical Hits are determined. If you look on wiki at Critical Hit, there's a table that shows your critical hit percentage with Critical Strikes at 16 with Way of the Master and Critical Eye up - 55%. Basically, even though it says +%, it's still multiplicative.

Desert Rose

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post
Crit rate of sin with 16 crit strikes and 12 scythe mastery is 17.0% + 16% = 33%
Way of the Master adds +35% to crit rate
Critical Eye adds 16% to crit rate
Total sin crit rate = 17+16+16+35=84%
Afaik crit chance is multiplied, not summate, so the correct crit chance should be around ~65%.

Quote: Average damage of scythe = 25 (avg of 9 and 41)
Raw damage (RD) = crit dmg + non-crit dmg
RD (derv) = 25*(1-.229) + 41*.229*1,41 = 32.51349
RD (sin) = 25*(1-.65) + 41*.65*1,41 = 46.3265 crit damage = max damage * radical of two

Quote:
Effective Damage (ED) = RD*DMulti*AE
DMulti (derv)= 1.2(customized)*1.15(inscription)*1.75(AS)*1.25(Ur al) = 3.01875
DMulti (sin)=1.2(customized)*1.15(inscription)*1.75(AS)=2 .415 AS? Attack speed?
edit: Asuran Scan.

Average damage per hit: 32.51349*1.15*1.2*2^((100-60)/40)*1.25(Ural)=112.1715405
Average damage per hit: 46.3265*1.15*1.2*2^((92-60)/40)=~111

However, [[Heart of Fury] is only active about 18*1.2=22 of ~31 seconds, [[Critical Agility] is pretty much always active.

DPS: (112.1715405/0.67)*0.73(HoF is active) + (112.1715405/1)*0.23(HoF is not active) = ~148
DPS: (111/0.67)*1 (CA always active) = ~166

Picuso

Picuso

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

far far away

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by English Warrior View Post
Also different builds will make ur results differ. This.

Maybe you should re-do your maths assuming sin is using Ural's too.

IronSheik

IronSheik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Wolfenstein: Goldrush

Zombies Go Nom Nom [Nom]

N/

What frontline uses 16 anything in PvE, granted it can hold aggro a bit better, I never saw myself using it.

Gift3d

Gift3d

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Las Vegas

Enraged Whiny Carebears [oR]

W/E

you're forgetting the part where the derv runs completely out of energy in 10 seconds flat because mysticism is a bad joke.

reaper with no name

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

Ok, so, that makes the sin even worse off then.

Yeah, that's a good point about the perma-IAS, though.

Fortunately, that's easily checked. For every 30 seconds, the dervish has 21 sec of HoF (assuming 20% enchanting mod and 13 mysticism).

So DPS = damage dealt during HoF + damage dealt after it = 147.9135897*(21/30) + (173.0589/1.75)*(9/30) = 133.2067528

Ok, now to recalculate what the sin can do.

crit rate = 55%+?*?

Hmmm...Crap, I don't know how to do the multiplicative thing, so I'll just pretend for a minute that the base weapon crit adds with the crit modifier


First with critical agility and no ural's hammer (16 crit strikes)

crit rate = 55+17=72%
RD = 25*(1-.72)+41*.72 = 36.52
ED=36.52*2.415*2^((92-60)/40) = 153.5578067
DPS = ED/1.17 = 131.2459887

Not quite enough.

Ok, now with Ural's Hammer instead of critical agility. Using the 12-9-10 spread in the last post, that would be 37% crit. Again, due to my fail multiplicative skills, I'll be lazy and assume that the +% adds to base crit.

crit rate = 17+37 = 54%

RD = 25*(1-.54)+41*.54 = 33.64

ED = 33.64*3.01875*2^((92-60)/40) = 176.8101252

At 9 wind prayers, onslaught (the longest lasting non-crit agility IAS sin can get) lasts 14 sec and takes 20 sec to recharge.

DPS = (176.8101252/1.17)*(14/20) + (176.8101252/1.75)*(6/20) = 136.0941428

That is slightly more than the dervish, but it assumes that base crit and crit modifiers are added together (uncertain), and it discounts the extra damage from attack skills that a dervish would have.

Regardless, it's beginning to look like dervishes are indeed better at spiking with scythes than sins are.

reaper with no name

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Rose View Post
Afaik crit chance is multiplied, not summate, so the correct crit chance should be around ~65%.


crit damage = max damage * radical of two


AS? Attack speed?
edit: Asuran Scan.

Average damage per hit: 32.51349*1.15*1.2*2^((100-60)/40)*1.25(Ural)=112.1715405
Average damage per hit: 46.3265*1.15*1.2*2^((92-60)/40)=~111

However, [[Heart of Fury] is only active about 18*1.2=22 of ~31 seconds, [[Critical Agility] is pretty much always active.

DPS: (112.1715405/0.67)*0.73(HoF is active) + (112.1715405/1)*0.23(HoF is not active) = ~148
DPS: (111/0.67)*1 (CA always active) = ~166 That's it! The extra damage from crits! That's what I forgot the second time around! I KNEW there was something I was missing!

Whew...For a moment there I was worried...

Picuso

Picuso

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

far far away

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post
Ok, now to recalculate what the sin can do.

crit rate = 55%+?*?

Hmmm...Crap, I don't know how to do the multiplicative thing, so I'll just pretend for a minute that the base weapon crit adds with the crit modifier
Total crit = 63,65%. 64% rounded up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post
Ok, now with Ural's Hammer instead of critical agility. Why are you swaping CA?

Quote: A few things to point out:

- Heart of Fury and Whirling Charge are the only good IASs, Onslaught and anything else is a joke.
- Anything can "pwn" PvE.
- No one is saying Dervishes are bad, they're just comparably bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post
Regardless, it's beginning to look like dervishes are indeed better at spiking with scythes than sins are. I'm not sure about that.

Grim Aragorn

Grim Aragorn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

A/

sins have INFINITE energy with scythe and dont need enchantments to keep their energy up, in heavy ench removal areas the derv is gunna be sitting there auto attacking to get his energy up, where a sin can just spam the skills on recharge forever.

IronSheik

IronSheik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Wolfenstein: Goldrush

Zombies Go Nom Nom [Nom]

N/

Zealous Vow Goes on my derv about 90% of time

Infinite energies for spam powuh.

Grim Aragorn

Grim Aragorn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

A/

no deepwound..... sigh

KoKoS

KoKoS

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2007

aBove Empress Amarox xP

KDT

Mo/E

why are we comparing apples to watermelons? =S

totally different professions and builds..

reaper with no name

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

It's not apples to watermelons; it's apples to genetically engineered super-apples. Conventional wisdom has it that a sin who picks up a scythe can use it better than a dervish. I was confirming it for myself for a second time and ran into a few snags.

Xsiriss

Xsiriss

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

No,just no.This does not take into account the energy management of scythesins which means they can spam things like mystic sweep in very short amoutns of time. That and defense through crit def and the armour, making them more useful than dervs in everyway possible.

reaper with no name

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

The build being used for comparison was using zealous vow for energy management.

It doesn't matter though, the error I suspected was found. I forgot to take into account the extra damage of crits, and that skewed my numbers.

reaper with no name

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

Not in this case. The only difference here is, the sin is doing exactly what the dervish is doing, only better. As is usually the case.

Expherious

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2007

Wolfenstein Fuel Dump

Melandru's Elite Hunters [Hunt]

D/

Good math, Pretty numbers But 'Cher Wrong.

reaper with no name

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

*facepalm*

Yes, yes, we know. I know. I had crunched the numbers before, I knew what the expected results were. I was just wondering why my results were different this second time around (ie, what did I mess up on this time). Someone pointed out that I forgot to include the extra damage from crits. That's what was messing up my numbers. Can we end the thread now please? Jeez...

Celtus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2009

D/

dervish does dervish better than any other profession, if you dont understand that, then you dont understand the profession. /end

Catchphrase

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2009

/facepalm
You might as well start a 16 Scythe Mastery + 20% Mastery mod dervish versus a 12 Scythe Mastery + 20% Mastery mod assassin

Its pointless, nobody would trade off -75 health just to bump their damage for a tiny amount. Anyway since you are so passionate about dervish being a superior scythe user, I can tell you that a Melandru dervish will outdamage any scythe users in conditions heavy areas. Immunity to conditions = 0 downtime when blinded / crippled = more succesful attacks.

Celtus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2009

D/

p.s. the dervish is a support profession

reaper with no name

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

That's not true. Dervishes are gimmick melee. Sure, they can do support, but if they were meant to be a support profession they would have less armor, no weapon proficiency, and would have a lot more skills devoted to support, rather than an entire attribute line devoted to survivability and condition spreading (earth prayers).

I'm not passionate about dervishes being the best scythe users. I know they aren't. Critical Strikes and a maintainable IAS > 4 more scythe mastery. That's why I was confused; the calculations I was doing weren't supporting that and I couldn't figure out why. I figured if anyone could tell me what I was missing in my numbers, it'd be the guys here. It turned out to be the extra damage from crits (silly me, how could I forget those? ). When that's taken into account (despite the fact that crit rates are multiplicative; another thing I messed up on), the scythe sin wins out in damage by a mile, just as expected.

Cirian

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

Dervish support is very gimmicky, very much a secondary ability.

The most impressive thing I found about the Dervish's martial skills was the ability to spam Concussion Shot through Attacker's Insight. Niche, but cool. There's a build there if you add in D-Shot, Onslaught and some other stuff... should you find yourself bored one afternoon..! *cough* Anyway...

The maths pretty much confirms what I thought about A/D's too, which I'm happy about because I like the style. The Hand of the Forgotten scythe (the fist holding the curved dagger) just reinforces that assassin style even more

Dervishes were made a bit too convoluted. Mysticism is very unwieldy. I still want to like them though. Perhaps I have a tendency for counter-culture? The question is... what *should* a Dervish be good at anyway given that Rangers and Assassins in particular are just so totally sweet with a scythe?

Could Mysticism be changed to extent enchantment duration 2-4% per level and make them the masters of enchantment? It would be hilarious if they could use Shadow Arts enchants better than a sin! Hmm, maybe it's a new topic.

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

Dervish permasin? I like ^^

But really, in all seriousness, what the Dervish needs is a GOOD IAS and perhaps ways for more armor penetration and critical boost. A hybrid of both the CritScythe and StrScythe would be good.
More e-management is also called for.

Megas XLR

Megas XLR

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2009

D/W

Hah, Dervishes just seem so balanced that it's hard to pick out how to make them better.

One thing that would definitely be a treat is reducing the Avatar cast time to half a second for PvE. And every 5 points of Mysticism you have, you get one more energy pip.

EDIT:
What I'm definitely curious of is what does Anet think of Dervishes?

Celtus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2009

D/

dervishes do have great IAS, heart of fury and onslaught are among the only enchant ias skills (not considering the vast array of pve only skills), pious fury is great in certain builds, and whirling charge is like a non elite version of primal rage..sure its conditional and cant be kept up quite as long, but primal rage makes you take double dmg, so that is also quite conditional.

ive been pwning all aspects of the game with my dervish since i picked up nightfall a couple years ago. maybe ill post some builds on here someday, but right now i have little motivation to give builds to this forum as nearly every thread on the derv board turns into a "omg why isnt my dervish good!?" qq fest. keep trying guys, the profession isnt totally gimped. theres plenty of stuff that needs to be adjusted, but its still a very good profession.

let me say this again, if you arent whoring enchants and using mysticism to its fullest, you arent getting the most out of your dervish.

and regarding what i said about support..support doesnt just need to come from a defensive standpoint, and you dont need to be a fully 'gimmicked' support build. dervishes have access to some very powerful heals, sig of pious light, imbue health, dwaynas touch, formerly mystic healing til it was nerfed pretty badly...and we have access to alot of aoe conditions and damage that can easily change the outcome of a battle.
let me say this again, if you arent whoring enchants and using mysticism to its fullest, you arent getting the most out of your dervish.

and regarding what i said about support..support doesnt just need to come from a defensive standpoint, and you dont need to be a fully 'gimmicked' support build. dervishes have access to some very powerful heals, sig of pious light, imbue health, dwaynas touch, formerly mystic healing til it was nerfed pretty badly...and we have access to alot of aoe conditions and damage that can easily change the outcome of a battle. What are you even saying? You're trying to overplay Dervishes with some weird proclaiming that Mysticism and enchantments are Godly, and that Dervishes can change the tide of battle with AoE conditions and damage. Sorry, but that's going a little dramatic and trying to come up with fictional reasons about why Dervishes are good.

If anything, Dervishes are good for these reasons:
- Arcane Orders
- Wounding Strike/Zealous Vow/EDA + SY
- Avatars

reaper with no name

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

You forgot Mystic Twister and Mystic Sandstorm. Those can be pretty good (or at least one of them was, I forget which one) with the right build. And don't forget Reaper's Sweep (though that's really just a variant of the WS build). But all of this only reinforces that the dervish is gimmick melee. It doesn't really have any pure offensive or defensive builds that another profession can't do better, and that's the problem.

I've actually toyed with the notion of creating a healing dervish, but the closest I've ever come to actually doing it is putting Imbue Health on my bar in FA (helps quite a bit, actually, especially if there aren't enough monks around).

Celtus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2009

D/

A) i dont use onslaught much. but if you think its a joke..tell that to the 'meta' pvp community that was obsessed with primal rage for months, onslaught is PR without the 'take double damage' part, and it still lets you have a stance....

B) though i have done everything in pve with my dervish, i am almost entirely a pvper, ive earned well over 4 million balthazar faction, 2500 glad pts, varying amounts of kurzick/lux rep and fame since NF release JUST with my dervish, with my own builds. (and i quit the game twice in that time, for a few months each..)

If anything i feel overpowered playing my dervish.

Im not trying to be condescending to the rest of the dervishes on here. But i mean come on, every thread in here is turning into a sob story about how warriors rangers and assassins can do certain things better than a dervish. Imho, post these things on those respective profession forums...instead of further discouraging dervish players from learning their profession.

All i want to say is good luck to all, and if a profession is fun for you, stick with it and explore your playing style and you'll find something that works for you.

moriz

moriz

??ber t??k-n??sh'??n

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

R/

onslaught is also an enchantment on a 20 second recharge in a mostly useless attribute line. primal rage, before its two subsequent nerfs, was a stance on a 4 second recharge, and gave 33/33 instead of 25/25. even after the two nerfs, primal rage is STILL miles ahead of onslaught

btw, earning a bunch of factions is hardly an indicator of effectiveness. i can do the same with a mending wammo if i wanted to. considering that a dervish is basically a mending wammo on steroids, the comparison is kinda appropriate.