Bridging the great divide. PvE and PvP.

Right, if you're going to complain about someone whining, please at least do the favor of reading their post.

I do not PvP. I don't want to PvP. I was simply pointing out something that I always see as being a common complaint and why I think it's a bit crap.

Due to the group-system nature of Guild Wars, I think there will always be difficulties trying to get people to move from PvE to PvP. The gameplay mindset shift from PvE to PvP is enormous.. You are moving from a gameplay system where everyone wins to where a large number of people lose a lot, all the time, and a few win, a lot of the time.

It's ok to be a scrub who wants to win, but many people cry about how they can't get into it, without putting in the requisite 'work' involved. The people who actually want to PvP will do several things:
1. Put in the hours
2. Form connections (this is the hardest part, namely because if you suck no one will want to play with you, and a lot of players have difficulty accepting this)
3. Be critical of your own performance and improve yourself (a lot of players will not do this either ie. wahh stop criticizing my build i'm a unique snowflake)
As I said in the previous paragraph, the group-nature of Guild Wars forces it so that people have to go through steps 1 and 2. It's difficult, it's a bitch, and it's not all that fun, particularly when you start to PvP when the game's been out awhile. But you either really want to be involved in competitive play or you don't.

No one in PvP is going to hold your hand. Hell, most pve'ers dont even want to play with each other anyways, so what makes you think PvP'ers will take random newbies? PvP is a meritocracy. There is a bottom, and there is a top. There's too many whiny babies and carebears too involved with their pompous ego and emotions to allow themselves to go through the humbling process of getting their face ground into the dust after hours of effort, nevermind take criticism from others. The gulf that exists between pvp and pve lies within each player. Some bridge it because they get it, and others will just whine incessantly about rank and some perceived unfairness never using that time to find their way to the other side. Maybe they don't want to, maybe they can't, cause they just suck. Whatever the reason, there's nothing to 'fix'.

IMO, Alliance Battles were Anet's attempt at bridging the gap. In some ways, it works. There are an incredible amount of players that would probably not dabble with PvP at all if it weren't for AB. But, of course, AB isn't recognized as any kind of serious PvP, and rightfully so with no real skill level required. It's just a free-for-all, jump in and have fun -kind of environment; a slight change from grindy, static PvE.

The idea of "World PvP" in GW2 will probably be very much like this, and is yet another attempt at building bridges. Still, high-end PvP just doesn't ever seem like an attractive choice for those who primarily play PvE. It is two different games with similar mechanics, and simply put, many people would rather play one or the other. Yes, I am aware that most of the top players have also played [and conquered] much of PvE - but chances are all of these players prefer PvP any day to it.


On a personal note, I would likely enjoy high-end PvP. What little PvP I have done outside of ABing I have really enjoyed. However, I don't think I could muster up the time needed to devote myself. Not to mention, none of my friends that play GW do any kind of PvP (except occasional AB), and I'd much rather have fun with them then go off on my own and try to find online war-buddies. Besides, I prefer to do most of my killings in FPSs...

Get a guild, the majority of unranked's suck. I was kinda lucky I guess in that I tried out for a HA guild and even though I sucked they still took me on because I was dedicated and made them laugh over vent. The prot was r9 so he knew what he was talking about - he explained to me what basic mistakes I was doing and I went away and worked on it. That would never happen in a PUG, I mean the guy might be nice and say one or two things which I needed work on but he wouldn't consistently help like that guild did.

If it wasn't for that guild i'd probably still be an unranked playing randomways.

PvE brings people together. Ideally they play in a social and friendly environment. When random groups start PvE their success rate is around 100%. The more people progress through the game, the harder it gets. The success rate with random people sinks, which the players compensate by creating stronger bonds to play with their guild. In the end, the rate of success is pleasantly high (80%+), the atmosphere is friendly and social, the game has great recreational abilities. Good community even further pushes the success rate by trading good builds.

PvP pits players against each other. During their first match in RA, people are thrown not only against another team, but most likely face ridicule and hostility coming from their own team after the unavoidable loss. In contrast to the high success rate in early PvE, the success rate in PvP usually starts at 0%. Since most people play to win and not play to compete this is a problem right there. You have to be in a certain mindset to put up with such a fact. The game makes not attempt to make your efforts worthwhile, it only rewards winners, further escalating the problem. It's a fatal psychological setup for entertainment!

As players continue, they face even more PvP challenges. The social group they have to join in order to advance their PvP efforts is usually cut throat relentless. Liabilities get kicked from the team. But let's assume you even got through that. So then you are part of an 8-man crack commando team playing GvG. The matchmaking is such, that you will most likely play against equal teams. So either your team is a bit better, then you win, or your team is worse, in which case you loose. The Win/Loss ratio is 50% AT BEST for 99% of all players on the PvP circuit.

Now you take the amount of people playing games to have fun and the amount of people playing games to suffer through something and you get the great PvE-PvP divide. The two game modes are designed for two different customers with two radically different views on the game. Them hating each other it the natural result.

Alliance Battles is worse than RA nowadays. PvP-level wise.

As a game grows older, it is inevitably going to be harder and harder to find players who want to play with the little newbie, isn't it. If that applies in PvE, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't apply in PvP. People don't like failing in either format, and they don't want to take people who could compromise their chance of success, and if you come into a game or game format late, you have to accept that there is going to be that barrier.

It's already there in PvE with people complaining about how just about everyone can get through HM even though they technically don't have the skill. Of course it applies in PvP, and I wouldn't expect it to be otherwise - and I'm saying this as a PvE person whose only PvP indulgence is in AB. Which I know some of you people don't even consider PvP, but that's not the issue at hand.

This is one of the failings on A-Net's part in their desire to have players transition from PvE to PvP. The arenas in PvE outposts (Ascalon arena, Shiverpeaks Arena, etc) were meant to help introduce new players to PvP, but they ended up discouraging new players from playing PvP because of the use of max armor and elite skills by folks who have been around long enough to be able to afford runs to LA & Droks to get those things. A-Net didn't respond to the problem fast enough and those low-level arenas ended up as ghost towns. The arenas in Amnoon Oasis (I beleive it was a 6vs6 arena) and Droks never had a chance, and ended up on the scrap heap! (Not sure if the one at the Henge of Denravi made it into the game at release or not.)

Another big turn-off is the elitism run amok in PvP. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me, that once you reach a certian point, you're not going to become any more skilled, just more experienced. And if that is indeed the case, then how much more skilled is a rank 6 player than a rank 3 player? But I'm not just talking about rank discrimination. Another problem seems to be the arrogance (know-it-all) of many PvP players.

True story: I was doing AB's one day (yes, it's PvP, so shut up! ), using a build given to me by a long-time PvP player, who happened to be in one of the higher ranked guilds at the time, and I had been using the build quite successfully for a while, (it hadn't been hit with the nerf bat,either) and I got kicked from two different groups - the first one called me a "PvX wiki noob" and the second one kicked me because "that's not a PvX build, noob!" (elitism run amok)

Well, honestly, it's always been like that. At least, if they were both played 'correctly.' In AB, the primary goal is capping, which involves almost entirely killing AI. In RA, you're at least constantly fighting other players, and can test out builds in a [very rough and random] team setting.

Regardless, the point is that AB attracts PvE players and is at least is a step up toward PvP, therefore bridging the gap a bit. At least, that was the intention. I think it's on the right track.

I like how you are calling the bad PvP players "elitists". The majority of high end PvPers are actually very nice and open to helping people. Now that doesn't mean they are going to let you in their guild, but they will still give you advice or guest for your guild if you ask them. The snobby elitist attitude comes from the people who have not been able to prove themselves as good players and consistently stay in the lower tier of PvP because they have terrible attitudes and no one wants to play with them. Ignore the crappy PvPers and if you want help pm the actual good ones. If they aren't busy, they will indulge you (similar to the guy who gave you the build in the first place).

I agree with this because AB is how I bridged the gap. I always enjoyed watching GvG's and I would browse Team Quitter Forums (back when it was actually helpful) and learn a lot about PvP. My friends and I all wanted to get into GvG and we used AB as our training grounds. We played builds we saw our favorite GvG players run and we learned the basics to everything. We gained a lot of experience and when we finally started to GvG, had a very good base of preparation underneath us.

But the key is having the work ethic and the desire to be the best. If you don't you won't make it.

Well the biggest failure was that A.Net never did a good job providing enjoyable PvP for the masses.

The percentage of players who have no desire to ever do anything PvP related under any circumstances is fairly small; but the sorts of PvP that most players want is very accessible, requires minimal organization, allows some amount of contribution regardless of skill level, and provides rewards. Guild Wars did not do a particularly good job at this - instead most of the PvP development effort went into GvG and HA, which are very inaccessible, requires a lot of organization, leaves weaker players as liabilities, and is unrewarding for all but the most successful players. That sort of design splits your community hard, and that's exactly what happened.

If you want a transition, you need to have very accessible, voluntary, and well supported world PvP, that players can simply drop into and contribute. You need to pair that with a slight step up to random team-based scenarios, ala Alliance Battles / Battlegrounds, that people can pick up and play but also introduce the team and organization elements as well. The entire PvP-pyramid, Arenas and HA and GvG and whatever else you want needs to be built upon that base of accessible, casual PvP.

Splitting your community is terrible, since the player base bleeds between PvP and PvE in a variety of ratios, and the more it bleeds the wider the audience for your game is. That Guild Wars eventually split the PvE and PvP explicitly is a testament in just how hard they failed in that arena.

Just curious, but what kind of format would you have recommended the devs implement for their shortcomings?

I guess RA was the least organized, most accessible.. but what else could they do? I toyed with the thought that ANET could have premade templates (bars and equipment) with teams, so that players could choose a position in a team and simply wait for it to fill up (a kind of a twist in RA) before going in to play.. but yeah.

From the sound of it, there will be many types of scenarios in the world pvp. This would be a very accessable way to train people for the different full fledged pvp game types. Not to mention world vs world will encourage people banding together and forming friendships, which can lead to more pvp guilds.

I disagree with your supposition the GW was a PvP game with PvE introduction. Certainly the marketing material and reviews didn't present this view of the game, nor does my anecdotal experience.

Four years into the game, I don't think you are going to be getting too many more people dedicating themselves to become very good PvP players. I do see getting more people playing casually PvE (for example, my 63 year old mother just started playing with her grand kids and she loves Prophecies and there is zero chance she will become good enough at PvP to satisfy the typical poster in these forums).

I do think you could get more people playing casual PvP, but there just isn't a place to do that. Maybe something like a rank based RA where each district is of people of the same rank and rank is account based. In any case, you need some way of getting casual players to only interact with casual players until they decide to move up. They should be encouraged to play with builds that they like and think might be fun even if they aren't on PvXWiki. Currently the only place I see this happening is within guilds. Overall if you want new people playing PvP then it needs to be fun for new people. Right now, it isn't.

Having read through this thread, which is very enlightening from my point of view as a non-PvPer, I decided to post a rather radical idea...

OK, disclaimer:- I don't PvP, I have no rank, so I can accept any flames or criticism of my idea as long as it's backed up by a solid reason as to why the idea won't work...

Arenanet needs to do something to force the issue at this point and attempt to include less-experienced players in high-end PvP. My suggestion is a rank cap, similar to the salary cap employed in American Football.

If an 8v8 team was forced to take some lower-ranked members, it would mean those members would eventually gain the experience and rank necessary to include them in HA.

Obviously to implement this directly in HA at the present would be unfair, as established teams would be forced to disband because they exceed the rank cap, so perhaps an intermediate arena (with similar rules/maps/conditions to HA) is necessary?

I'm certain people would have thrown fits if ursan groups were rank capped.

The only thing the developers working on GW2 have to do is simplify the game.

Probably never gonna go into PvP solely for the fact that I despise rank discrimination. If there was for truly fun experience and not so bloody serious it seem to be, I would have been in PvP long time ago. In my opinion that's the Great Divide right there.

Play BYOB GvG, it's fun and improves individual skill!

For a pve player, the biggest hurdle to transitioning into pvp would be the social barrier more than anything else. People are individuals first, team players second. Grouping is a big problem for a new pvp player and the game doesn't really help much in that regard. One of the earliest pvp formats, RA, also doesn't help, in that it enforces the individual mentality instead of the group mentality.

There is also the issue of the different formats being so different. Everything you learn from RA you have to unlearn when you progress to TA, which you would again have to unlearn when you progress to HA and again when you go on to GVG.

Why the need to unlearn you ask? Because the mindset and playstyles are so different across the different formats that without unlearning, you bring a lot of bad habits picked up in a previous format that inhibits your performance in the next. All these adds to the learning curve that a new pvp player would have to go through and doesn't really help.

I guess the real reason plenty of new pvp players never get anywhere is because they are unable to find a support guild to get them into pvp, i.e. they fail at socializing rather than being bad players. Without that pvp guild to get these new pvp players eased into the game, the learning curve can be very daunting for them, which is why for some, they just don't bother and give up, staying forever in pve or only dabbling in casual pvp.

I think I see what you're getting at, but since when does the existence (or non-existence) of a rank cap on a (now-nerfed) PvE skill have anything to do with the current state of PvP?

Although, there was rank discrimination during the Ursan days in the same way there is rank discrimination in HA, so maybe a rank cap on Ursan might have worked. That, however, is for another thread to muse...

Anet burned that "bridge" down long ago when the separated the game into pve/pvp skills. PvEers want things to be easy as possible, which isn't the case in pvp.

PvEers are also never taught how to pvp. They think healing hands wammos are good and running superior fire magic runes on characters with 60 AL will make them stronger. They also don't know any tactics and strategy that most experienced pvp players know.

Anet needs to think of a way of help the noobs learn how to competitively pvp.

PvE never prepared players for the game. PvE prepared players for the PvE game.
Which means that the players that completed PvE, couldn't really move on to PvP. They had to start over in PvP.

GW is basically two games for the price of one.

Totally agree, saying that all pvers don't want any form of competitive gameplay is wrong, it's just that current pvp is perceived by many as to be too competitive. Not only learning curve is steep, as Avarre pointed out but also pvp as a way to perfection is often a bit too much ie: .
But i prefer something like that :


Exactly, PvP where even mistakes can happen without ruining your and others players experience, when playing for 30 minutes daily is rewarding and fun, even when you are tired after work and can't achive perfect way of concentration and coordination. Sure many will say that if someone's looking for that kind of experience GW isn't that kind of game and GW2 shouldn't be it either, but i think otherwise.

Well I don't think the role of it is training; at least not any more than storyline PvE is training for DoA. For most players, world PvP and battlegrounds are probably the extent of their foray into PvP; and that's ok. Most of your players don't want to be any more serious about their PvP than they are about PvE. The more important part is what you mentioned at the end; meeting people and forming friendships, creating opportunities for players who want to go further and be more competitive to do so.

PvE/PvP player's refuse/do not want to play PvE with others, what makes you think they want to play together in a competative environment?

When a player plays low-level PvP all the reason's people don't PvE together rear it ugly head:

The waiting times to form groups is pathetic.

If and when you do get a group,any tiny mistake causes people to rage/start arguements/quit the game.

The whole ego thing that infests this game, everybody around me is an noob, i can do no wrong, even when i completely screw up i still push the blame onto others.

GW need a "pub DOTA" version of GvG opposed to only "League Match DOTA" GvG.

How to do it?

Dunno. I'm not working in game design.

Wont it be plagued with leavers and griefers like DOTA pubs?

Probably. Anet problem to solve.

Wow, some good and insightful posts made by so many people. Thank you.

As a few people have stated, GW2's World vs World PvP might just be the change in PvP style/format that is needed to make PvP more accessible to the masses of players who, quite naturally, start in PvE but eventually start to tire of the game and want something more competetive. But, like all things GW2 related, we have so little information about it, it's far too early to tell.

Assuming the more structured PvP is still the mainstay of the game, particularly if Heroes Ascent / HoH is pretty much as it is now, do you think having tiers would help? Having districts only available to people of a certain rank or lower, say 0-3, 4-6, 7+, and players forming a team from those districts will only be facing similarly ranked opponents.
This way lower ranked players will be able to get a group, and to a lesser extent the experience needed, they still have the option of playing in a higher ranked game, assuming they can find a group willing to take them.
The only down sides I see are that they will miss out on playing against far higher ranked (and presumably much more skilled) players, losing is a learning experience after all. Also the possible fragmentation of the player base, not that I think that would be a problem given how entrenched rank discrimination is.

Or, as has been mentioned by more than a few astute Gurus, that some intermediary form of PvP needs to exist between the 4v4 RA/TA arenas and the big boys 8v8 in HA?

edit: Just a quick note for the people who have said that some people just like PvE and have no interest in stepping up to the more competitive game play PvP offers... Sure, this is true for some players, many even... but I think a surprisingly large number of the current PvE player base (those who rarely venture beyond AB/JQ/FA) do want more from the game, but find the entry obstacles for PvP too high.

I always enjoyed the story version of games as opposed to competitive play. Granted I DO PvP now, but until AB was introduced I never touched the thing.

One other reason I didn't PvP (and used henchman) was because this is a party oriented game and I was afraid I wouldn't be pulling my weight. I didn't wanna go and ruin someone else s game because of my lack of knowledge.

But that's when I used to care about other individuals...then I found the interwebs....gg.

HA is not as serious as you guys are making it out to be, join a guild and play regularly, you'll get a deer pretty quickly.

A 6v6 PvP mode would be nice though...

Superstition? In Prophecies, whilst I didn't play back then, it was definitely a PvE intro, Arkantos' evidence in the first post about the Desert Missions is proof enough and the lack of endgame stuff is also true. Basically, what Arkantos said. Superstition? Nah.

I can tell you why I never crossed the bridge to pvp. It's because I can plow thru mobs in pve hm with one hand while scratchin my balls with the other and hardcore pvp takes two hands and scratchin my balls is more important to me.

Don't think I could've said it better myself most people in games like to show off their uber moniez just like many people in real life.....

Materialism FTW? WTB more friends? WTS Personality for bling!

If PvPers realized that elitism and bullying the nubs only hurt their own interests, they might see more people in pvp.

I'm not suggesting that r7+ HA teams should be taking nubs on their teams. But the taunting and flaming and stuck up attitudes so prevelant in-game and in forums is the biggest reason you don't see more crossover. There needs to be a teaching mechanism. I believe anet has provided that. But too many players would rather pummel the inexperienced and call them names.

PvP is, for the most part, a very hostile and unfriendly environment for inexperienced pvpers. And keep in mind, some of these inexperienced pvper are very good pve players. They shouldn't be treated like idiots. Wake up and see the potential, and point them in the right direction rather than ridiculing them. You just might find your pvp world become more fun when you actually have better competition.

pvp and pve skill requirements differs significantly.

I usually sweat pretty good after a good gvg, and I fell asleep during HM elite areas, if Anet gives out SDKs I can write a bot to do pve.

you are right to a certain degree, but walking the inside track of pvp, you will see most of the hostile pvp players are title hunters, fame farmers, faction farmers, etc. They don't represent the other side of pvp community, friendly, knowledgeable(not pvxwiki knowledgeable, but really know the game inside out), and helpful.

Sometimes it is hard for pvpers to teach a pve player. Because we know not everyone has an open mind and a learning attitude. Pvp is a very dynamic environment, a skill should be used then doesn't mean it will work now, many pvp transitions failed upon this vital part, and took the educated critique personally and gave up.

Giving a few examples, you can get yelled for different reasons.

"Shatter enchant!"
"OK!"

"Don't shatter!"
"Wha?"
"Don't Shatter!"
"It is a freaking RoF cover, stop shattering crap!"

"Diversion the monk!"
"OK!"
"No the other monk!"
"Why would you divert a bonder!"

"heal me"
"ugh..."
"monk i need heals!"
"OK!"
"how the hell did you die?"
"i had backfire on me"
"then don't heal me!!! why you die!?"

Just some feedback about why I personally never went beyond dabbling in pvp over the 4 years I've been playing.

One of the main reasons for my limited participation in serious pvp is that I'm not interested in leaving the guild of good friends I've made to join a more pvp focused guild. I realize everyone's guild experiences aren't the same, but mine is a bit like an extended family. We interact outside of gw both online and in real life. We're fairly casual, and mostly all working adults with families and such, and we spend our time on GW relaxing and laughing and otherwise winding down from the stresses from our day jobs. GW isn't a second job for us, it's a game.

The way the game is currently set up, we're limited in setting up networks to achieve our individual goals. We have our guilds, our alliance (guild extension) and our friends list. Let's compare this to real life, just for the sake of expounding theories and brainstorming and exploring common themes and all that shit. I have my family, my wife's family, my friends, my wife's friends, friends of friends, my work colleagues (both coworkers and contract workers, etc), my wife's colleagues, the professional orginizations I belong to, other social groups I particpate in, etc, etc, the list goes on. Now some individuals fall into multiple categories, some are limited to a single category. I'll typically rely on a particular group for a specific utility. Sometimes I can get people from other groups to perform in a capacity I wouldn't have originally associated them within. This is how we get shit done irl.

I guess the bottom line is, there are a lot more networking opportunities available to us irl (lol, durrr) and given the limitations in-game with networking, a lot of opportunities for socializing with people with common objectives are missed. It'd be nice if, in-game, I'd be allowed to have my guild, my colleagues, and my other associations and clubs that I could take part in based on my own particular interests. An in-game provision to set up sub-groups for the sake of expanding our networks I think would go a long way towards building communities and breaking down the walls that are currently inhibiting our ability to socialize normally/properly.

I realize that the long view here could result in an apocalyptic transformation of this game into a mutant facebook of some sort. However, I think that given this game is a MMO of sorts, where people are actually socializing online, by giving the people more and better opportunities to interact and make friends and ultimately have fun and buy more copies of the game, this aspect is worth consideration. The goal here would be to explore avenues to bring people with different playstyles and gaming interests together, not drive them further apart.

I'm not suggesting that this alone is the magic bullet. I agree with the sentiments presented about having a more approachable middle tier of pvp, bridging the gap between pve and high end pvp. My fear is that this world pvp would quickly be relegated to the non-serious low end pvp spectrum, and the cycle will repeat itself. From my own speculations as to how it will work, I think it sounds fun, if it is how I am imagining it is going to be. Regardless of what Anet brings to the table with GW2, the community at large will always be the liability here, and unless there are ways to improve the community, we're destined to repeat the same patterns.

That in itself is a big problem with a game over 4 years old.
Most 'good' PvP guilds that still exist, (didn't implode on themselves) and are indeed recruiting...aren't looking for new players to train.
There was one guild out there that actually comes to mind...it was a smurf of a fairly decent pvp guild back in the day..[kisu].
Look them up (if they live)...they used to recruit players that showed a willingness to learn, and listen closely.

What are the chances for PvP only guilds to ruin World PvP for everyone else? And the whole benefits shit sounds exactly like the idiotic favour and faction system, you know, where you can not buy stuff because the wrong group owns the town! Both a major annoyance.

I was a hardcore PvE player who decided to play PvP. I would like to play PvP more but the attitudes and grief from other players really ruin it for me and make that part of the game a chore, although there are rare times when everyone appears to get along. I turn off local chat during any PvP game, it's the only way I can stomach playing and yes, that is sad.

I believe I am not the only one put off by the abuse at the lower levels of PvP. It probably gets better in the upper levels, but maybe not. So, just saying, the people who can't hold their tongue and their tempers are probably chasing off a large number of potential PvP players. You might say you're better off without the people who can't take the abuse, but really you don't know. I get frustrated too at this game but I've never ever ever verbally abused someone. If it gets to that point, then as far as I'm concerned, it's time to take a break and do something else.

I want to add that the grief is almost never directed my way, but bad sportsmanship is bad sportsmanship, and it effects the entire team and overall tone of the game. Some people don't mind it, some find it amusing, but being a mellow person, I like to avoid situations where people are prone to freak out and get verbally abusive. I don't put up with it in real life, I'm certainly not going to put up with it in a game.