Should hench builds be accessable?
headlesshobbs
While we complain about not having 7 heroes in another thread, I've come to wonder what the deal is with not being able to customize a hench in order to work better with group builds. I checked out their sets on wiki and while they stick primarily to their profession, much of whats used seems lacking and looks to me like an area which stands for improvement.
king_trouble
If you want to customize a hench built just bring a friend with heroes
headlesshobbs
We have a thread for discussion on 7 heroes, this is a different topic.
subarucar
A hero is a customisable henchman. What the point in allowing customisable henchmen when it would be much easier to raise the hero cap to 7.
HuntMaster Avatar
Customizing henchmen wouldn't be as good because for one, we can't customize their armor or weapon. We probably wouldn't be able to change their attributes so we wouldnt be able to change their skill focus. Just changing skills around on a henchmen to be a better version of what they are would be nice, but not really that good and completely useless with certain henchmen in certain areas.
It would also require more work to convert all the henchmen into customizable npc's. You wouldn't have to change as much or add as much in with just allowing 7 heroes.
BUT, assuming this could work, this is what we would need.
Seperate flags for each henchman.
weapon - mod - inscription choices in a option bar. (can't remove items or armor runes/insigs but we could change them)
Complete access to a henchmans attributes and ability to change it how we wanted.
Automatic visual display changes to match currently selected weapon.
It would be fun, but its just silly thinking about doing twice the work for half the enjoyment when heroes would be easier to extend and would allow players to actually customize them and not have to worry about re-doing it everytime they logged on or changed areas. Plus having to save all that to templates would make it a real pain even with a seperate hero/henchie template section.
It would also require more work to convert all the henchmen into customizable npc's. You wouldn't have to change as much or add as much in with just allowing 7 heroes.
BUT, assuming this could work, this is what we would need.
Seperate flags for each henchman.
weapon - mod - inscription choices in a option bar. (can't remove items or armor runes/insigs but we could change them)
Complete access to a henchmans attributes and ability to change it how we wanted.
Automatic visual display changes to match currently selected weapon.
It would be fun, but its just silly thinking about doing twice the work for half the enjoyment when heroes would be easier to extend and would allow players to actually customize them and not have to worry about re-doing it everytime they logged on or changed areas. Plus having to save all that to templates would make it a real pain even with a seperate hero/henchie template section.
arcanemacabre
I always thought the henchmen could use options for customization. Nothing too major, like maybe pre-determined templates. For instance, there could be a ranger hench that you can set to Barrage or Broadhead, then another ranger hench that could be set to condition spammer (like Burning Arrow w/Apply Poison) or a pet build. Warrior henchies could be set to any of the three weapons and the difference in build would be the actual hench - more offensive or more defensive.
Basically, you don't want too much control, or you'd have heroes.
Basically, you don't want too much control, or you'd have heroes.
headlesshobbs
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
I always thought the henchmen could use options for customization. Nothing too major, like maybe pre-determined templates. For instance, there could be a ranger hench that you can set to Barrage or Broadhead, then another ranger hench that could be set to condition spammer (like Burning Arrow w/Apply Poison) or a pet build. Warrior henchies could be set to any of the three weapons and the difference in build would be the actual hench - more offensive or more defensive.
Basically, you don't want too much control, or you'd have heroes. |
What I'm really bothered with are 2 factors, 1 the more campaigns a hench shows up in, the more builds they have available. 2 some henches (like Eve) don't even use the full space to make proper use of their builds. Why should they be limited in that area???
Very personally I wouldn't mind if they did fix this, but add something where you can select at least 4-8 predetermined builds you can select from. That and being able to see what they carry does a ton to help put groups in order.
HuntMaster ~ you seem to have misunderstood what this thread was about. Having to change their armor or weapons was not something I'd wanna suggest and would move them into hero territory. But you do have a point when it comes to being able to use flags. There just however wouldn't be a good point in giving each their own because we've already got enough as the way things are, what I'd rather put up a suggestion for is to have another party flag for hench only so you can keep your hero group on you so you don't have to lose the option of maintaining yourself as badly when you need to separate on certain tasks. This should work if you need to defend certain NPC's (Dunes of Despair for example) while catching other tasks or mission bonus.
king_trouble
Huntmaster you basicly want henchment to become heroes by that discription
HuntMaster Avatar
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Originally Posted by king_trouble
Huntmaster you basicly want henchment to become heroes by that discription
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I do like the idea of predetermined builds, but that just ends up meaning Pvxhenchies, which is just as off-putting. The OP said "Customize" in the post, not "more options". Just having predetermined skill bars isn't really customizing anything, since all we get to do is choose from a few options, none of which we had any say in. Plus we would need tons and tons of premade builds for each henchmen depending on what area and what campaign we were using them in.
If they didn't end up pvxhenchies, then they might end up completely under powered. Either way it could cause endless complaining and require more work by the few staff members to constantly update, nerf and balance.
Also if I wanted henchies to work just like heroes I would have included another option. Secondary professions.
So my idea doesn't actually turn them into heroes.Over all, 7 heroes >Customizable henchies.
headlesshobbs
I don't think there's much we can do about the pvx types as they're set up based on character and personality. However it would be nice to make changes like having Eve go from blood hench to MM or battery because it's within her profession for doing so.
As for discussion on 7 heroes, PLEASE keep it in this thread so we don't have to derail the topic for something anet may not lift a finger for.
As for discussion on 7 heroes, PLEASE keep it in this thread so we don't have to derail the topic for something anet may not lift a finger for.
drunk n angry
i strongly disagree with this as there is a reason a game is made MMO! i think that if you could customize your henchmen to replace the need for another human with 3 good heroes then you cut out the willingness of people to play with team mates. bad idea mate sorry. if you dont like MMO's then go play starcraft. anytime if you need help with anything in game chat me up IGN: Drunk N Angry i got good heros and guess what i'm human so i talk back when you yell at me for over agroing. LOL
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar
I do like the idea of predetermined builds, but that just ends up meaning Pvxhenchies, which is just as off-putting. The OP said "Customize" in the post, not "more options". Just having predetermined skill bars isn't really customizing anything, since all we get to do is choose from a few options, none of which we had any say in. Plus we would need tons and tons of premade builds for each henchmen depending on what area and what campaign we were using them in.
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Also, a predetermined build doesn't need to be PvX-based. I would say they would be a bit more restrictive than that - strictly primary class and using only core + local campaign skills. The only difference is being able to choose from a [short] list of these builds to better suit your own, and your team's build. I think that's fair and would work well, personally. You don't need "tons and tons of builds," either; just 3-4 per henchie, at the most.
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by drunk n angry
i strongly disagree with this as there is a reason a game is made MMO! i think that if you could customize your henchmen to replace the need for another human with 3 good heroes then you cut out the willingness of people to play with team mates. bad idea mate sorry. if you dont like MMO's then go play starcraft. anytime if you need help with anything in game chat me up IGN: Drunk N Angry i got good heros and guess what i'm human so i talk back when you yell at me for over agroing. LOL
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Must be good be you...
thetechx
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Originally Posted by headlesshobbs
That's right and to make sense they're typically hirelings made to assist....
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thats what i think. if you hire someone to fix your sink, you dont tell them what brand of tools to use.
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by thetechx
thats what i think. if you hire someone to fix your sink, you dont tell them what brand of tools to use.
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thetechx
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
But you also tend to have lots of plumbers to choose from, instead of just one or two, allowing you to pick what you feel is the best for the job. (plumber = class, other henchmen classes = different types of repair - electrician, mechanic, etc.)
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Nerel
I like arcanemacabre's suggestion of giving the henchman a few build's to choose from, even if each henchman only had three or so templates to load, it would give them more versatility, it would have been a great idea if it was implemented back in the day, you know... before we had heroes.
ajc2123
I don't know about this but they definitely need to update some hench bars like the prots in Factions...WAY too many condition removals.
TheodenKing
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Originally Posted by subarucar
A hero is a customisable henchman. What the point in allowing customisable henchmen when it would be much easier to raise the hero cap to 7.
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MagmaRed
Henchmen are there to fill in when you can't find what you need to do a quest/mission. They do the role they are made to do well enough to work in both NM and HM, although some things they won't do very well. Your idea is basically making them into a hero, although with fewer options. I agree that the hench skill bars are lacking for many of the hench, but they are not supposed to be the 'best' available.
To me, this sounds like someone who gave up on wanting them to allow 7 heroes and is looking for a way to get the same thing.
To me, this sounds like someone who gave up on wanting them to allow 7 heroes and is looking for a way to get the same thing.
Red Sonya
For the most part (except those who cheat and group up with a friend to get 6 heroes) henchies are the way they are for BALANCE purposes. It's already pretty easy with just 3 heroes. If they allowed 7 heroes or customizeable henchies there wouldn't be any challenge left in the game. As it is henchies remain dumb and it works out well for those that DON'T HAVE NIGHTFALL AND HEROES. Playing with just henchies in Prophecies and Factions is still the best solo w/ai challenge left in the game.
That's the other thing that voids the 7 hereos arguement is that not everybody owns NIGHTFALL or wants to. The 3 heroes were a BONUS to playing with HENCHIES not an in place of. Now I know many of you can play a lot of the game with just 3 heroes, but, you sure can't play the very hard areas with just 3 of them. Lemme see you go through DOA or FOW or UW with just those 3.
So, no just like there should't be 7 heroes there shouldn't be customizeable henchies, but, the one thing I would agree on is a FLAG for each one. Let them keep what skills Anet thinks BALANCES them for the game, but, give us the ability to separate them while we play them.
Of course those that would whine about let those that don't want 7 heroes play with 7 henchies or blah blah blah. Everything effects the game no matter what when changes are made. Thus 7 heroes or customizeable henchies would ALTER the game and the ECONOMY as more players would be able to solo w/ai more content and Faster thus causing mass inflation and things would just get more expensive for those without Nightfall and heroes. Have to keep the game BALANCED for the WHOLE not just for the selfish and greedy.
Let the fires of flame begin I don't really care. It's my opinion an it's also the opinion of Anet (whether it be exactly mine or not) and that's all that matters and will stay the same unchanged.~~
That's the other thing that voids the 7 hereos arguement is that not everybody owns NIGHTFALL or wants to. The 3 heroes were a BONUS to playing with HENCHIES not an in place of. Now I know many of you can play a lot of the game with just 3 heroes, but, you sure can't play the very hard areas with just 3 of them. Lemme see you go through DOA or FOW or UW with just those 3.
So, no just like there should't be 7 heroes there shouldn't be customizeable henchies, but, the one thing I would agree on is a FLAG for each one. Let them keep what skills Anet thinks BALANCES them for the game, but, give us the ability to separate them while we play them.
Of course those that would whine about let those that don't want 7 heroes play with 7 henchies or blah blah blah. Everything effects the game no matter what when changes are made. Thus 7 heroes or customizeable henchies would ALTER the game and the ECONOMY as more players would be able to solo w/ai more content and Faster thus causing mass inflation and things would just get more expensive for those without Nightfall and heroes. Have to keep the game BALANCED for the WHOLE not just for the selfish and greedy.
Let the fires of flame begin I don't really care. It's my opinion an it's also the opinion of Anet (whether it be exactly mine or not) and that's all that matters and will stay the same unchanged.
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4thVariety
If henchmen were configurable they would not be henchmen, right? Although a community makeover would certainly not hurt. Some skillbars are very weak to say the least.
To some degree the decision making process of Henchmen is the real issue though. When players are down to 100 health all of a sudden and all a certain henchwoman does is to give you Healing Breeze and then all of them leave you out to dry, then...
To some degree the decision making process of Henchmen is the real issue though. When players are down to 100 health all of a sudden and all a certain henchwoman does is to give you Healing Breeze and then all of them leave you out to dry, then...
Red Sonya
Remember Alexia is a tank not a monk. Too many people blame her for her own unique personality in the game. Sure she wears monks clothing, but, deep down all her young life she wanted to be Xena Ultimate Warrior. I think many players don't know how to really roleplay. They think every class or every ai player should think and operate like THEY THINK and OPERATE! Where's the UNIQUENESS in the ai character if everything is like the player wants it to be? If anything the henchie ai has character in so many ways. Think about it a character that makes you curse the screen is as real as in real life when you curse someone who doesn't do something exactly the way you wanted it?
Sure she wears monks clothing, but, deep down all her young life she wanted to be Xena Ultimate Warrior. I think many players don't know how to really roleplay. They think every class or every ai player should think and operate like THEY THINK and OPERATE! Where's the UNIQUENESS in the ai character if everything is like the player wants it to be? If anything the henchie ai has character in so many ways. Think about it a character that makes you curse the screen is as real as in real life when you curse someone who doesn't do something exactly the way you wanted it?
4thVariety
Alesia's Tank behavior only has one reason: HEALING TOUCH.
Any player worth a damn knows not to equip a backline hero with touching range healing spells. She just can't resist helping that poor Sin surrounded by 10 monsters. Which ties back to henchmen needing a community overhaul.
Or you kick all melee types from your H/H setup, then you will be fine as well.
Any player worth a damn knows not to equip a backline hero with touching range healing spells. She just can't resist helping that poor Sin surrounded by 10 monsters. Which ties back to henchmen needing a community overhaul.
Or you kick all melee types from your H/H setup, then you will be fine as well.
![]HM[ Sabre Wolf](/static/static/../Img/avatar102835_2.gif){kind=avatar}
]HM[ Sabre Wolf
In short... no... and bring a friend with 3 more heros...
But, the Henchies could use an update to skills... but, should be limited still to the game they are from... only makes it politicully correct.
But, the Henchies could use an update to skills... but, should be limited still to the game they are from... only makes it politicully correct.
IronSheik
No, they shouldn't. We should just have more henchmen to choose from. Perhaps a Henchman MM (Gasp!), or ones that don't suck in end game prophecies.
Red Sonya
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Or you kick all melee types from your H/H setup, then you will be fine as well. |
IronSheik
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Originally Posted by Red Sonya
Exactly and that is what I do play with all ranged characters and she works fine in my groups. See there is a STRATEGY to playing with Heroes and Henchies just because you or someone else doesn't know it or realize it doesn't mean there should be 7 heroes or the ability to configure the henchies to the simpleton way you or others play. But, you seem to know the strategy I'm just not sure you use it correctly.
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Red Sonya
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Originally Posted by IronSheik
God forbid having a melee character. Let me just get on my wammo and whip out that longbow.
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Besides Melees are a dime a dozen. People should be more creative with their classes. there's thousands of combinations out there people haven't even thought of yet that are better than the cookie cutter builds you see online.
IronSheik
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Originally Posted by Red Sonya
Besides Melees are a dime a dozen. People should be more creative with their classes. there's thousands of combinations out there people haven't even thought of yet that are better than the cookie cutter builds you see online.
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You're saying that you should use a Hamstorm/Ranged build over a conventional warrior? Just because people haven't thought of it? The reason people don't use ranged warriors is because they're..bad. Warriors have 80 AL, 100 AL with physical, not including shield, they belong in the front line, not back with monks, and if your whole party is ranged...wouldn't enemies just walk back more? You'd have to completely rely on minions/summons to keep enemies at bay.
Accursed
If the henchman builds are accessible, then what's the point of heroes?
drunk n angry
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
So the only reason people play with you is because they can't use 7 heroes?
Must be good be you... |
Seraphim Angel
What I wish is that they gave them a little number next to thier name like heros so I can micromanage them better. Also be able to flag them individually instead of as a group. Just like heros.
Nodakim
Would work if you could limit the attributes and skills the Hench can use.
So basicly Cynn(Fire Elementalist) could just use fire skills and the fire element attribute.
And you couldnt manipulate the runs,insignias,weapons on her.
You couldnt cast instead of her also.
Then my answer is yes.Do it.
So basicly Cynn(Fire Elementalist) could just use fire skills and the fire element attribute.
And you couldnt manipulate the runs,insignias,weapons on her.
You couldnt cast instead of her also.
Then my answer is yes.Do it.
Ctb
I don't see what difference it makes when hero/hench AI is still so incredibly stupid that if you don't micromanage them they're practically pointless.