I've Got Another Puzzle For You... (Brand New Crappy Trade Sitch!)

On the same sort of topic as my previous posts... this one ought to stir up some conflicting opinions...

Before I go on:

I use this forum to price my minis. Whether or not the post is currently accurate or w/e should be discussed elsewhere. Try to keep this one about in game ethics.

I was selling dedicated minis today in LA. A player asked to see what I had so I showed him. I was selling a Lich Lord, Kirin, Koss, Necrid Horseman and Thorn Wolf. (All dedicated.) He asked for the Lich and Koss. I asked for 25k. (Lich 20k, Koss 5k) In chat he agreed, but once I had modified the offer, he also modified his. He put a row of minis in as his offer and asked if I would be interested in a trade. He had an undedicated Palawa and Roaring Ether that I wanted and added up to 25k. So I agreed and the trade went through. Ta Da! Everyone gets what they want!

Haunted by my recent experiences though, I PM'd him a couple minutes later to make sure that he knew he was getting dedicated minis. Even though my WTS said "ded" he might not have understood the abbreviation. While we were setting up the trade, I told him how I had just come back from dedicating the Lich... so it seemed pretty clear, but after I asked, he said No, he didn't realize that.

Okay so fine, reverse the trade and try again. I mean, yeah, I wanted the minis, but I was willing to wait. I can't exactly explain it, but he seemed like he was either younger (like 10-14yrs) or else very distracted. So naturally I felt the need to give him a second chance. I offered to reverse the trade. He said okay. I set up the trade so he just had to hit accept but he didn't. Then he asked if I would just give him the Necrid Horseman and we could call it even. I was okay with that. So I set up the trade, my Necrid Horseman for nothing. He accepted it. So now all was well. ...or was it?

So HE says... can I trade back when I want (Started taking screens at this point.)
ME: I suppose you can have them back when I dedicate them if you want. (At this point I was pretty much convinced he was a young kid. After they're dedicated I only sell them again, so fine, whatever. Yeah kid, you can have them back.)
HIM: don't dedicate them
ME: That's the only reason I wanted them.
HIM: Ok dedicate them then u will give them to me for free.
ME: I can do that. Just keep in mind that most people wouldn't make that kind of deal with you. If you don't want me to dedicate them at all, I will trade you back, no problem.
HIM: ok dedicate them them come back here and ill take them back ok
ME: We can just trade each other back if you want. (I didn't want him to feel pressured into having to let me keep them now that the trade was done. Especially if he was a kid who didn't really understand the way that minis work.)
HIM: no nvm
HIM: ok lets trade back
ME: Okay.
HIM: plz can i have my pets and i keep ur pets because they are dedicated plz
ME: Haha... no. The pets that I gave you are worth 30k at least (I wasn't trying to lie, I rechecked the site for prices and forgot to take half off the price of Koss. My bad.)
HIM: can i keep lich
ME: Nope.
HIM: ill give u charr for the lich

At this point he starts playing with the trade screen, putting up different minis in his offer as he's talking it out with me. He makes all sorts of crazy offers asking me to show him the other minis I have again. I humor him. He now offers me unded Mini Rurik for the minis he traded me back. I told him no. After the original trade was completed, we were even. Then I threw in the Necrid Horseman... w/e. Now he wanted me to give him 25k of minis for a 10k mini. I told him I wasn't interested and why. Then he tried to convince me how much Rurik was worth... etc... I'm getting impatient, but I figure I'd let him figure out what he wanted. After all, I had planned to sit in LA for a bit to sell my minis anyhow. I sent him a link the Guru page I use to for mini pricing. He disagreed with the prices. I didn't want to debate it anymore so I asked again if he'd rather reverse the trades to where we were before we started. After a few minutes he said yes. I offered him Palawa and Ether back and he submitted an offer to give me Koss and the Lich back. I asked him add the Necrid Horseman. He did. I hit agree... he hit... change offer.

I canceled the trade and zoned out. That was more than enough consideration I felt. The whole incident spanned about 20 minutes while he went back and forth changing his mind. He PM'd me asking me to come back and I told him no. He threatened to report me. I supplied him with links to the support page and the legal page on the Guild Wars website. He said that he would stop playing games, but kept threatening to report me at the same time. He said that all he wanted was to reverse the trade. I tried to explain to him that I had given him ample opportunity to do so and that if he hadn't been playing games, he would have had the minis back already instead of playing more games.... The very last message I saw from him said that he would also give me 3k if I came back to reverse the trade. I didn't answer him.

I think the whole situation went bad. So tell me guys, where did I go wrong? I know that everyone is going to have a different opinion on when and if they would have shut him down. Do you think what I did was wrong, or just the timing of it? (Was it okay to leave, but I should have done it sooner? Or should I have sat there as long as it took for him to come to a decision?) I'm really curious what your opinions are. (Especially after reading through my other posts! Some of you guys can be downright ruthless!)

I'm almost wondering if this guy was on of the trolls from a previous post just trying to catch me in a sticky situation or bug the crap out of me!

P.S. Sorry the posts is so choppy with the "I did this, he did this" stuff. I wanted to be as accurate as possible because I know someone is going to come along and dissect every last word of the post to use it against me! The reason I didn't post it all in screenshots is because I didn't get the full text copied. Also, in previous posts when I used screenshots, I don't think everyone read through them which led to uniformed posts etc... Oh, and no, I haven't dedicated the minis yet. I think I'm going to offer to reverse the trade again tomorrow...

That should have been the END.

Your mistake was PMing him back and starting another whirlwind :P

LOL you either always attract the wrong person or all these threads and incidents are made up for some reason to draw attention to yourself?
I dunno and I'll keep an open mind in this but only advice I'd give is Stop Trading in game.

Yeaaaah... I was 50/50 whether I should ask him if he was fully aware of the trade. But I myself made a dumb mistake in a trade earlier this week and I just couldn't stop thinking how I'd feel if I bought minis that were dedicated without paying attention. That and the whole I'm pretty sure he's a kid thing...

LOL... you're not serious are you? I mean, I'd say in general I've been very lucky lately considering the mistake I made. But I mean, you're not serious about me making stuff up right? Besides which, I'd have to be under the influence of SOMETHING to make this kind of shit up! Thanks for the advice though.

you care too much for ethics ingame man.

I tried it a while, but then figured out it isnt productive and there is a big chance the person you are having the dilemma with just wants money, and does not care about the same ethics you are holding.

You should have left it there. You had already explained in simple terms and offered him a bonus. Once he accepted that, you should have stopped.

My impression is that he began jerking you around to see if he could get anything else from you. Youth does not equate to stupid.

DO NOT go back and revisit this with that player. You are only asking for more frustration while he has fun.

wtf? he even get a warning when he accept and there are ded minis in trade. I wouldnt care about him for a second after this

Your weakness is rare; you are too kind.

Giving him the bonus Necrid Horseman showed him that he can push you to get a little bit extra, I guess thats what he kept trying to do. People can never just accept a good deal, they keep pushing to get the best they possibly can. I suppose thats a good thng, but it makes for tiring trades.

this - if it were me and I saw all the stuff he was doing I would of told no I wasn't interested in any other offers of trading minis and that I would give him a hour to make up his mind if whether he wanted trade back or not.

Children in Guildwars , is GREAT ... Children TRADING in guildwars .. Not so great

i love trading with little kids it's like stealing candy from a baby. mehmehmehmehmeh!

Wow, you are so easy to exploit.

^^This. He had his choice of a complete reversal of trade at that point, and he asked for the Necrid Horseman instead. You went the extra mile, and anything after this was going far beyond the call of ethics. If he was still unsatisfied, then he will learn to be more careful with his trades in the future -- when he is dealing with others who will gladly rip him off without a second thought. You gave him more than ample opportunity to undo his mistakes, and there aren't many traders out there who would offer even one do-over.

What you did was really kind and one of the reasons I love Guild Wars is that there are so many really lovely people in it.

But if it was a kid you are doing him and the next people he tries to trade with no favours if he gets the message that it is OK to mess people around like that. My children play - and no they do not always understand what is going on - but dealing with situations is how they learn.

In my opinion once you had explained that the minis were ded and offered to reverse the trade if he was not happy you had done enough, and more than many people would do.

Keep trading

I officially hate trading now, except selling to merchant

Why: it creates a lot of unnecessary problems, plus, because players wanting to buy stuffs, people like me get hacked.

Note: DEDICATE ALL YOUR MINIS! I didn't and now I don't have one single pet in my HoM.

Once you finished the original trade that should have been it,you say you clearly advertised that the minis were already dedicated and if that wasn't enough the buyer also gets a warning before completing a trade with dedicated minis.He was obviously trying to take advantage of your good nature,if i was you i would just chalk it up to experience and never make that same mistake again.

This is not a puzzle, you instigated yourself into an annoyance.

there's your problem. cut that out.

I agree with Darcy.

That said... You are honest and that will probably never change. This is a good thing. Unfortunatly honest people are seen by some dishonest people,
(several of who have posted here) as an opportunity to run a scam.

Don't change, 'trust but verify' comes to mind.

your initial trade went through, that should have been the end of the communication.

who cares if it was a kid, teenager, or an adult. they made the trade, they should be responsible enough to check what they are giving and receiving and whether those items are ded or unded.

let people be stupid if they want to - more profit for you!

Hey, I think you raise a really valid point here. People trade to get something they want for something they don't. Is it wrong to try to get as much as possible? I don't think so. I think it's wrong to push the issue once you've gotten a "No" out of it, but yeah... I guess it should be almost expected that people are going to try to push it - and yeah, it does leave a chance for major annoyance. This probably just helps to prove the points that others have made - trade at your own risk... and don't expect that it will naturally all fall into place. Damn good post. Thought-provoking and useful!

Does this mean no Oompa Loompa dance? I think the phrase 'instigated yourself into an annoyance' would make for really cool retro lettering melting across the screen... (Wonka circa Wilder, not Wonka circa Depp.)

I did as soon as I started envisioning the old school oompa loompa songs... pretty colors... tastes like Snozzberries! (I Blame Pumpkin Pie for bring up Depp Movies.)

If there was a conflict in how the trade went, you should have offered to reverse the trade strictly as was, or not at all. None of this, "add this" or "keep that" or "dedicate first" BS. As soon as you started allowing variables in the trade, it became a whole new exchange from what the two of you had first done.

Exactly. Though entertaining , a bit long , nice details and a possible essay on the absurd , but to debate on it sounds more like what your trade partner would need, not a very smart guy like you.

What's more ridiculous? To start a topic challenging in-game ethics or to not care so much that you submit a post to it? Heh... Some Alanis chick wrote a song about this scenario.

I care so much about this thread and the ethics of playing a video game , that i will admit i want to see the Oompa Loompas dance with Osama bin Laden sputtered in chocolate + manatees doing play back . I mean what is the point of a video game forum if you can't have a little fun, right?

I'm only with you on this one so long as we're not including fun at others expense.

It sounds like your conscience got the better of you, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Though you did do nothing wrong to begin with, I can understand your inclination to be cautious for someone else's benefit. Unfortunately it seems like you gave this guy and inch and he took a mile. I would have cut out before that.

Yeah I replied to that thread

But I agree you are a bit too kind and concerned about such things. If YOU had bought ded minis that you weren't aware of until after, once again the blame is on yourself for not double-checking.

Both of you agreed to the price or trade offers and the trade went through. It ends right there. If the other guy later changes his mind, tough luck. He/she should be 100% positive about the offers or deciding to trade first.

If I sold say a Mini Ghostly Hero for 100k, and later I realized it goes for way, way, way, wayyyyyyyyyy more than that amount, I can only blame myself. If I spent 80k on a 2k item, whose fault is that? Mine. If I sell something for 40k and the buyer puts up 45g or 4.5k and I accepted, it's my fault for accepting.

If those things happened to me, no one here or in GW would take sympathy on me or give me stuff for free to offset the loss.

Don't worry about others when trading. Worry about yourself. You said that you were getting a deal you liked. UNded minis of the ones you wanted too. You got them. Just let it go.

Morality in an online world is a bare minimum. Worry about morality in the real world instead

But I enjoy reading all the stories and rants etc here in Riverside Inn. Some amusement to help pass the workdays.

Anyhoo, if you want to continue such talks, you can always PM me in-game. Guild Wars is simply a better version of MSN/AIM/YIM for me now.

I have to disagree with this. There is a real person on the other side of each toon. Do you really think it promotes morality in the real world to suggest that it's okay to be immoral when you have anonymity going for you? That it's okay to cheat someone when it's "just a game"? Doesn't this reduce morality to "whatever you can get away with is moral", rather than a set of principles?

No, you're stupid. Take a basic economics course. You'll notice that morality and the market have nothing to do with each other.

It has nothing to do with anonymity. People in real life screw other people in real life over, too - it's called capitalism. The more people you can screw over, the richer you get. If you are held back by constraints like morality, you will never succeed as well as those who understand that profit is all that matters on the market.

Did I miss something? I don't think Brett and Chushingura are talking about any specific incidents anymore so there's no reason to assume that they had any intention of linking economy and morality....... There's nothing about capitalism that says people will screw people over. The two can co-exist but one doesn't depend on the other. Profit =/= immorality. Either way I'm pretty sure that's got nothing to do with what they were talking about.

you were to kind. i first wouldnt trade a item for another item unless its one i really really want or know 100% i can resell it. and you should have stopped once you both got what you wanted. i had people days later pming wanting their items/money back because they found a higher/better price. LOL. and like a lot of the other people it looked like he was trying to push you for more free stuff.

and age doesnt matter on here. he may seem young to you but doesnt mean you have to treat him any different then someone that seems to be way older then you.

You didn't do anything wrong. As others have said, *giving* the guy the necrid possibly encouraged him to try and get even more out of you, but your generosity isn't necessarily bad--another person might have been quite grateful. You can't be expected to hang around for hours until he makes up his mind about keeping the deal or reversing it, either.

Not all GW 'players' are human . There still are tons of bots playing this game (and many other games). Bots of course have no morality. :P

Just so you know (and it has probably already been posted in this thread):

When you buy dedicated miniatures, after clicking the Accept button, you get a warning that you are buying dedicated minis (with an explanation that you cannot add these to your HoM).

So if he accepted the trade anyway, there was no need for the rest.

This happens due to the lack of real internal trading systems.

Since external sites cover just a little of the playerbase, their prices are not actually accurate, not matter how much some people may think they reflict the actual price, they just reflect their value for people that actually bother about checking them outside the game, not for all players.

One of the main flaws of GW is the lack of a real trade system outside the trader NPCs.

In the other hand, players are warned when dedicated, he was warned when trading, he just refused to use the required minimal brainpower for the task.
Some people just don't want to think. Don't bother about them.

Yes! I didn't realize it until the end when I clicked accept to get my mini's back. (the trade that he cancelled anyways) I don't think that it's necessary because they ARE marked in the box when you do the mouse-over... BUT for people like me have been known to be easily distracted..... errr.... I think that it's a nice addition.

Do they only use that warning with minis or are there other items that bring up a notification? If I had known that at the beginning when I was dealing with him, I wouldn't have even have sent him those messages... Which is what made me think he was playing with me even more...

Not 100% sure, but probably customized stuff like customized weapons and armor.