R/ and A/ out-Dervishing the Dervish.

I got some ideas for skills.

Avatar of Balthazar
Cost 15
Activation 2
Recharge 60
Concise: (10...74 seconds.) You gain +33% increased attack speed, have a base 10% armor penetration with attacks, have +%25...40...55 chance to critical, and you gain 4 energy whenever you successfully land a critical hit. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

They have the critical bonus and energy management of the assassin, as well as armor penetration that a warrior gains access to and a reliable IAS.

Might sound a little overpowered, but besides the IAS, all it is is a little bit from the primary from both the assassin and the warrior.
It also fits AoB quite well since it is debated the worst Avatar and Balthazar is more about blowing shit up.
And since literally other physical profession in the game is very efficient in wielding different weapons (Even the paragon!) with the exception of the Dervish, they need some skill functionality changes.


Heart of Holy Flame
Cost 10
Activation 1/4
Recharge 60
Concise: (10..20..30 seconds.) Whenever you deal physical damage to an enemy, all adjacent foes to you suffer 0..10..15 holy damage. End effect: inflicts Burning condition (1..4..6 seconds) and deals 0..55..65 holy damage to adjacent foes.

The trick here is to purposely make it synergize with Hundred Blades sword builds, Scythes in general, and AoE axes. Because it is tied to Mysticism, this prevents other professions from abusing it. And because of how Dervishes (are supposed) to work, it keeps the concept of enchantment juggling. You can either use it for the damage bonus or use it in an enchantment juggle if they revert Pious Assault. And because it has such a high recharge though, you're forced to bring Eternal Aura, emphasizing the need to juggle enchantments.

Aura of Holy Might
Cost 10
Activation 3/4
Recharge 25
Concise: (20 seconds.) You deal +20...30% damage with your scythe. Initial effect: nearby foes take 40...48 holy damage. End effect: nearby foes take 40...48 holy damage. For every 5 ranks in mysticism, you gain 1 energy whenever your attacks deal elemental damage.

This isn't self explanatory, so allow me to explain. Although not mentioned, it converts your attacks to holy damage and has priority. This means it prevented combining Mantra of Frost with Avatar of Grenth in PvE, which was another reason not to use a dervish.
Basically, the change is that it wouldn't convert your attacks to holy damage, which means slightly nerfing UWSC without killing it, but it would reward dervishes using non-physical damage due to the vast amount of skills converting your skills to elemental. Would have great synergy with Ebon Dust Aura and the like while still not giving you the energy bonus if you decide to use a Heart of Holy Flame based build with the buff I mentioned.

Lyssa's Assault
Cost 10
Cast 3/4
Recharge 6
Concise: Deals +5..17 damage. Deal +10..23 more damage and interrupts if hit foe was casting a spell.

Dervishes need an interrupt skill. And the old skill was kind of redundant since it couldn't be used for energy unless by a Ranger.

Arcane Zeal
Cost 10
Activation 1
Recharge 4
Concise: (10 seconds.) You gain 1..3 Energy and 5...17 health for each enchantment on you whenever you cast a spell.

Just a simple buff to compete with Ether Renewal, giving possibilities of Dervish Healers and buffing Orders Dervishes, giving Derv primaries another option. This may look like a clone skill, but the difference lies in the duration and recharge.
It may also bring Dervish heroes more into play, perhaps as the next "N/rt healer" due to the massive energy gain.

These are my proposed skill buffs that may help buff the Dervish. Of course, what's most important is that they REVERT PIOUS ASSAULT. And my skill suggestions don't have to be down to the number. They're just concepts.

=/ buff mysticism :

For every 2 ranks , steal 1 health from an enemy. Total lifesteal cannot go over 6. And hell , if it's too great , even nerf it a bit like soul reaping ! Something along the lines ( steal a maximum of 50 - 70 health over 10 / 15 seconds ). It would be pretty nice with a vampiric scythe and AoG. Also for the IMS , you have hear of holy flame and Whirling Charge ! 33% and 25% ... i don't get why you'd want a permanent 33% , maybe not to waste 2 slots ? I'd personally go for

[skill]Whirling Charge[/skill] Stance. (3...13...15 seconds.) You move and attack 25% faster. Ends if you are not enchanted.

Mysticism and Wind prayers are great , combine with scythe mastery. People often just go for earth prayers thinking they're more tank-wise while allowing them to deal more damage. Wind prayers allow great self heals , energy management , ias , ims ! I've honestly had less trouble dying on a Mysticysm/Wind/Scythe spec than on a Mysticism/Earth/Scythe soo yea , i'm going a bit off topic.

Buff mysticism to what i've said at the top for a nice fix.

Also agreed with kain on the above post , REVERT PIOUS ASSAULT , and AOHM linked with mysticism =0 ! That's all :3

I never said to link AOHM to mysticism. I said to rid it of the holy damage clause (Yes. Clause) and make it give energy if you deal elemental damage.
This would open up MANY possibilities as a dervish. But what would be most important is the other buffs I mentioned.
It's not that the other classes are better than what the Dervish does. It's that the Dervish does what it was not intended to do and has no benefits to using its own weapon.

1 lifesteal per 2 ranks of mysticism is meaningless. It won't allow a dervish to compete with a scythe sin or scythe warrior. Now that I think about it, lifesteal might not be the best method, because anything high enough to compete damage-wise with the competition would also be overpowered as a self-heal (because we'd be talking 30 or 40 lifesteal).

Hmmm...Here's an idea for AoHM. In addition to what it already does, make it add +4 damage to attacks per rank of mysticism. It might seem overpowered, but this would only barely make the dervish better than the competition with scythes (in fact, it might still not be enough; I'm too lazy to do the math right now). That's how underpowered the dervish is with the scythe: an extra +40 damage is not guaranteed to make them the best with them.

Just a BIT overpowered don't you think? I mean, compared to any other elite, this is ridiculous. Lower the Crit % (Scythe master still adds chance to crit) to around 35-40% at high attribute, and remove the energy gain. Mysticism already provides enough (especially if it were buffed?).

Still I don't like the idea of forcing a dervish into one elite just to do slightly better then other classes weilding their weapon, let alone giving the elite the exact same properties as the other classes to compete.

No, Dervishes need to be buffed in different ways.

+60 damage at rank 15? Not enough? Are you kidding me? And with the +%damage buffing that even higher?

What are you smoking, and where can I get some o.O

Well, like I said. The numbers don't have to be exact. They were just pulled out of my ass. Though you misunderstood.
The the investment is organized like this:
0..12..16

So Avatar of Balthazar has 55% +critical MAX.

Though it's the concepts that count.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz Heart of Holy Flame Cost 10 Activation 1/4 Recharge 60 Concise: (10..20..30 seconds.) Whenever you deal physical damage to an enemy, all adjacent foes to you suffer 0..10..15 holy damage. End effect: inflicts Burning condition (1..4..6 seconds) and deals 0..55..65 holy damage to adjacent foes. The trick here is to purposely make it synergize with Hundred Blades sword builds

Except it'd be quite superior to Hundred Blades. Synergize? More like wipe off the map.

Not that HB is good to begin with, but seriously now.

More then a 50% chance to crit is ridiculous from one skill. Not even assassins have that, considering how crit% stacks (not additively). Max doesn't mean much at all because most people run Forms with pretty high attributes. I understand how investment is organized, and I think it shouldn't have more then 40% at 15 (by the way its 0...12...15) rank.

Still, as I said, dervs shouldn't be fixed by just throwing an elite skill at them that gives them the properties that make Assassins and Warriors so good with the scythe.

QFT . Give the 10% AP in scythe attack skills and thats all . See "of balthazar" skills and smitting prayer dmg spells. Think before write . AoB + JI + Asuran scan = Welcome to 1 hit 1 kill ? no thanks.
I know you all are thinking in HM but please , IMAGINE that "balances" you are writing against lvl 20 foes , or even lvl 24.

Its as absurd as a ranger saying "hey , mesmers can do 120 dmg when they interrupt a spell and they dont have to wait till "the arrow hits" so , i want my punishing shot to do +150 dmg if it interrupts a spell and recharge 50% faster" .

Just remove Dervishes from the game. They were an awful idea for a profession in the first place. I really hope they don't come back in GW2.

It certainly does synergise. No reason a Dervish can't be given a sword (some AoL dervishes do use swords, in fact) and if you have both HB and this going at once...

It does strike me, though, that this would pretty much kill it for use with enchantment-juggling unless Eternal Aura was brought along... and if that is brought along, the long recharge becomes meaningless.

Who's gonna burn 75 hp just for 15 mysticism? Or 35+Their headpiece? Besides, it would be +dmg, and unaffected by DR bonuses.

Call it overpowered if you will, but this is the kind of buff the dervish needs if it is to beat scythe sins and scythe warriors. That's how overpowered those two professions are with scythes. So, I submit that it is in fact not overpowered by sheer virtue of the fact that it would only make the dervish a little more powerful than the scythe warrior and scythe sin.

They fit better than warriors.

"Look at me! I'm a class with no magic in a game built on magic!"

Read Tenebrae's reply. NOT on an elite skill. Dervishes should not need to invest in ONE elite skill to be better then warriors or assassins with a scythe.

Also, whether you use minors of Superiors in PvE is up to you. I've tried both, and neither makes too much difference for general play. The only time you have to worry about health is when you are concerned about how much aggro you vs your team is taken, and as a dervish, I'd much rather the aggro be on me, the player, then a Hero or Hench with stupid AI.

-I- know when I'm taking too much aggro, and I know how and when to heal or detract aggro. I feel that the health vs attribute tradeoff is something that I can handle. My goal in PvE with me and heroes is to not die to begin with, which is why me nor my heroes generally carry rezes either.

Also, with +60 damage being increased by other sources, who cares about how much damage you are taking when you can just swing once and obliterate everything in front of you.

Eternal Aura should always be used in an enchantment juggle due to the high-recharge nature of your enchantments. And this way it is balanced. Plus, the high damage and range of Eternal Aura is awesome.


Which is why you have my proposed buff to Heart of Holy Flame which would put Dervish on the upperhand if using a hundreds blade build, and removing Holy Damage of Aura of Holy Might so that you can use the insane damage bonus that is Avatar of Grenth + Conjure Frost
Before you say something is locked into a single build, look at all the options.
Heart of Holy Flame would be triggered with each enemy and Hundred blades hit.
Say you've pulled a mob and now you've balled them. You have 5 enemies on you.
You activate hundred blades and it fires off average 16 damage. Then you have Heart of Holy Flame trigger 5 times. So 14x5=70+16=86
In a single hit you've dealt 86 damage. While not the insane damage that is a warrior or assassin, but keep in mind this would be on every hit for AoE. It shines in different ways though.
This may sound overpowered on paper, but to truly get the high damage, you need to literally be surrounded. And a dervish doesn't have high enough armor.
However, it's still amazing to pull off 86 aoe per hit. And if you use whirlwind attack, 86x5= 430 You get a maximum damage output to a single target, not counting sword damage. Of course, W/N with mark of pain is even more insane. And the actual reality of balling up 5 enemies is very slim. Usually the maximum one ever has balled on them is 3, which GREATLY reduces damage.

But as for the more basic high damage itself, that's where Avatar of Grenth would hop in.
Say with Aura of Holy Might you deal and avg of 123 dmg per hit.
So you put up Grenth and you gain 20 life drain per hit. `
Then you use conjure frost and gain about 15 dmg from it

that 123 dmg avergage would raise to 158 average per hit. AND because it is cold dmg, it would provide super-benefits against destroyers and titan.

AND, what's more if Aura of Holy Might's holy damage is removed is Ebon Dust Aura. A dervish blind-bot that blinds on each hit is appealing, yes? Especially considering scythes hit 3 adjacent foes?

Plus Arcane Zeal would further place usefulness for an Order's Dervish on the team and even open up possibility of a Dervish caster.

In the long run, even if you're not using my idea for Balthazar, you still have usefulness for the team. Be it utility, support, or AoE damage, you would matter.

And once Pious Assault is reverted, a Dervish would become a walking aoe condition-spammer of death.

Warriors don't need magic; they hit stuff and act brave. Rangers don't need magic cuz they fire their lazors. And Paragons don't need magic cuz they yell and throw stuff.

I actually wouldn't mind if Dervs and Paragons were removed in GW2. They seem kind of redundant to me. We don't need 3 melee classes or 3 support classes.

But, I'm sure there are many people who love those classes and would hate to see them removed. So, I don't expect their removal and I'm not going to encourage the idea.

Granted Dervs arent as pwnzorific as Sins with a scythe, but they still can crank out reasonable damage.

This build works reasonably well - you can also bring a staff if you have a blooder along to keep your energy high.

Asuran Scan
Aura of Holy Might
Eternal Aura
Heart of Fury
*Grenth/Lyssa
Victorious/Radiant
Eremite's Attack
Mystic Sweep

Grenth + vampiric is nice for when there is going to be a high armor boss and is just fun. Lyssa punishes eles and necros or other chars with long cast times.

I agree, Myst needs to make Dervs better at Derving (and Avatars need a complete PvE set where all forms cost 5e and aren't disabled for 120 sec).

I've stressed it once, and I'll stress it again:

Dervishes don't suck because they're overpowered. They suck because they have no benefits from using their own weapon and have no team synergy outside of Orders.
Plus they were nerfed a lot. And that only made it worse.

Question: What special benefits, exactly, do Warriors get for using Warrior weapons?

Strength ^

It helps a LOT. Plus you can spec 15 into swordsmanship for a more kickass Dragon Slash.

@Kain- since when are we talking about a dervish with a sword? This entire thread is about balancing dervishes with their own weapons, not creating gimmicky HB builds

@draxynnic- Strength. Armor penetration is nice, but the strength skill line has always been amazing.


-----
anyway, I would love to see enchantment-juggling come back, because that's what dervishes were made for, really... A revert to pious assault would be awesome, as would shreading a few seconds recharge off of a lot of the dervish enchants that'd be used with it.

I'm not sure I'd agree that it helps a lot, although it certainly helps a little... but more importantly, it doesn't specifically help in using Warrior weapons. It helps in using ANY melee weapon.

Which is possibly the actual point - Warriors and Assassins both have primaries that help in smashing face, while the Dervish's primary attribute, well, isn't oriented to weapon use. Personally, though, I don't really see this as a problem: I've always thought of the Dervish as being intended to be a hybrid - a kind of dedicated PBAOE specialist spellcaster who uses a melee weapon because it makes more sense than a staff if you're going to be mixing it up anyway.

With this in mind, I would contend that it's not actually a problem that Warriors and Assassins can wield a scythe better than a Dervish. Scythe-wielding isn't really the Dervish's forte. The real problem is that what is supposed to be the Dervish's forte is currently seriously underpar, forcing it to fight as an almost pure physical alongside the Warrior and Assassin - a position in which it is at a serious disadvantage.

That Warriors and Assassins can use AoHM just adds insult to injury. Personally, I think PvE skills should never have been tied to titles but wholly to attributes just like regular skills, but that's another discussion. It does mean that I certainly wouldn't be adverse to applying a Mysticism dependance to AoHM, though.

So basically what I have here is such

-bringing back enchantment juggling through buff of pious Assault and other enchantment skills used with it. (PvE only probably)

-buff mysticism (both pvp and pve)

- link AOHM to myticism (pve obviously)

-Buff mysticism elites (both, possibly)

- make avatars maintainable without Eternal Aura. Rework Avatar of Balthazar. (PvE)


Am I missing anything?

Bingo, main att synch is bad since the beggining. A get Crit strikes and W get Str , pretty normal for a melee but then the other melee , D gets .... Mysticism ? erm .....w000t ?. It has nothing to do with its main function , it should work to give bonus for damage depending on enchants and rank att .
A- get energy on crits and rise crit chance
W- get % of AP in every attack skill
D- get +bonus damage on regular hits under ench effect ? or somethin but not what it does now

The important part of the sentence is the first part, not the second. Dervishes aren't weak because they can't outdamge W/Ds or A/Ds with a scythe - they're weak because, with the role they were designed for not being viable, they have no choice but to try.

Well linking AoHM to mysticism after it's been around for so long would piss off scythe wielding warriors/sins (including me ^^). Imo it's better to come up with buffs to mysticism and it's skills.

Oh, come on. You knew you were exploiting the system when you made those characters. By all rights, you deserve a nerf and you know it. What's more important; making sure that your game-breaking build (that should never have existed in the first place) still works, or making sure that all the honest people who made dervishes expecting them to be good at something were able to do so?

Hammers work best with Strength.
Bows work best with Expertise.
One of the best spear attacks is in Leadership.
Daggers are undoubtedly better with critical strikes...
And scythes are better with... anything but Mysticism.

That's something to think about...

The old Irresistible Blow worked a lot better with expertise.

a) they're not game breaking
b) my suggestion to improve mysticism and it's skills solves both of your concerns

Blatant hostility, over exaggeration, obvious agenda.

You are not here to discuss any type of 'balance.' You are here strictly such that you can get your way. You haven't cared about any of the current proposals, nor have you really paid any attention to the issues that have created our current situation and the effects of changing those issues. You are not here to discuss, you are here to inflame and have people tell you that you are right.

It is bad enough when people complain about PvP balance, where overpowered builds directly ruin the fun of others. However your PvE complaint that you can still do the same things just a bit less effective comes off incredibly childish and selfish, which goes nicely with your bratty attitude.

Lookie here, the new Derv updates:

* Armor of Sanctity: functionality changed to: "All adjacent foes suffer from Weakness for 5..15 seconds. For 10 seconds, you take 5..20 less damage from foes suffering from a condition."
* Aura Slicer: functionality changed to: "If this attack hits, you deal +10..25 damage. If you are enchanted or this attack hits an enchanted foe, that foe begins Bleeding for 5..15 seconds."
* Dwayna's Touch: increased recharge to 5 seconds.
* Meditation: increased recharge to 12 seconds. Functionality changed to: "You gain 20..125 Health. If you are not enchanted, you also gain 3..8 Energy."
* Natural Healing: functionality changed to: "You are healed for 40..100 Health and an additional 40..80 Health if you are not enchanted."
* Pious Restoration: increased recharge to 8 seconds; increased casting time to 1 second. Functionality changed to: "You gain 80..150 Health and lose 1 enchantment. If an enchantment was removed in this way, you also lose 1..3 hexes."
* Sand Shards: functionality changed to: "For 30 seconds, Sand Shards ends early if you use an attack skill. When Sand Shards ends, it creates a sand storm at your location that deals 10..20 damage each second for 10 seconds to nearby foes."
* Vow of Piety: increased Energy cost to 15; reduced casting time to 0; increased recharge to 45 seconds. Functionality changed to: "Stance. For 20 seconds, you have +24 armor and +1..4 Health regeneration. Vow of Piety renews whenever an enchantment on you ends."
* Winds of Disenchantment: moved to the Wind Prayers attribute. Functionality changed to: "Lose 1 enchantment. If an enchantment was removed in this way, all nearby foes lose 1 enchantment and take 20..80 cold damage."
*Conviction: functionality changed to: "For 10..35 seconds, you have +24 armor. If you are enchanted, you also have a 50% chance to block."

HAPPY Now?

In before someone states: The people in this thread know of the updates already and they don't fix the dervish damage compared to sin and warrior scythe damage.

Nobody complained when assassins were best at barrage than rangers?

You do know that the only scythe attack touched is still useless...it applies bleeding every 10 seconds with a clause.

Pretty nice attack now amirite?

Every other skill is used on everything BUT the dervish.

Do you see a decent derv with natural healing? Or Sanctity? Is there a good derv build using Piety? No, these are used on warriors monks and sins as supports.

I mean look at sand shards...what's it used most on? Warriors..

And to quote the above post of barrage, it's because rangers still have another batch of elites to fall back on, dervs only have 1-2 that aren't avatars.

Well it has given me a reason to take a dervish secondary.

/facepalm

It is a fact that dervishes are already very good in PvE.

That a different class uses their weapon better, does not change this. It just means a different class uses their weapon better. The dervish is still very good in PvE.

Does almost nothing about the problem. As Reverend Dr implied, there's nothing there that can't be used by the W/Ds and A/Ds that are being complained about except Mysticism, and that... it really isn't that good. In fact, those changes actually may have stripped away more than they gave.

isn't it about how the class was meant to be? (neverminding the fact that it's a team play)

I mean, AFAIK, warrs are supposed to be in the middle of the action absorbing some damage and dealing even more, hence the 100 AL?

Assassins, are meant to do some big spike damage at the expense of having almost a caster armor.

Dervs, (IMO) are supposed to be a mix between warriors and casters, with enchantments that help with condition spreading, damage reduction, regen, etc. AND when finished, doing some extra damage.

The error here is that important skills are not bound to their primary attribute, so yes you could always lose to A/D's and W/D's outputting raw damage but that should be compensated by the effects of other skills.

Can't do 100 dmg with a scythe skill? how about doing only 80dmg plus 40+ dmg through other means such as enchantment stripping or applying conditions while fighting?

And about energy management, all said enchantments shoud be expensive, but you should reap the benefits at the time you apply them not when they finish, so you should enchant your ass before you fight and enter immediately into battle full energy or at least 75% ready to do some serious aoe damage + condition spreading. Burning, weakness, blind, etc, can be very useful sometimes.

A derv should be: "every time you strip an enchantment, god kills a kitten and deals 30-50 dmg to all the adjacent/neaby enemies"

True that. Armor of Sanctity monks are getting annoying.

Nope. Not on my dervish, especially these 2 skills.

• Sand Shards' self removal upon usage of attack skills blows the point of having enchantment self-removal skills at all. They should just omit that removal clause in exchange for reducing the recharge in order for dervish to be able to get the most out of it.
  
• AoS is ridiculous on /D casters yet mediocre on D/. Reduce the weakness duration to 0..2..5. Personally I think it is a good pair up with Pious Renewal but there are just no viable self rend attack skills to mix it up with the pair.

I propose the following changes in order to encourage some healthy experimentation of the 'enchantment juggling' play style of dervish without depriving the current 'stacking' play style at the same time.

• Arcane Zeal: For 2..6..10s, your enchantments are cast and recharge 33% faster.
  
• Pious Assault: Lose 1 enchantment, you deal +5...17 damage. If an enchantment is lost, target foe suffers deep wound for 5...17 seconds and Pious Assault recharge 33% faster.
  
• Pious Fury: Lose 1 enchantment, you attack 33% faster for 2..8s. If an enchantment is lost, you also have +24 armor.
  
• Vow of Strength (change to skill type): Lose all enchantments. Your next 3 attacks deal 5..25% more damage against unenchanted foes. 50% chance of failure with Mysticism 4 or less.