The Krait. Savage by Nature or Savage by Reason?

They could be related in a similar manner to how, oh, humans and simians are related.

Which is to say, not necessarily closely enough that one would give the other special treatment, but there may be a common ancestor somewhere.

That said, my gut is telling me that the Krait are probably more likely to be related to the Forgotten. I can't really articulate why it thinks this, but it does. Possibly to do with:

1)The Krait and Forgotten sharing a preference for magic.

2) The mural of a serpent in Ascalon City that was believed to be a Forgotten... that has feathers and, in fact, looks very similar to a Devouss. (The species might be able to grow or not grow feathers according to the environment - certainly, the Forgotten do have flaps on their arms that could potentially have feathers attached to form wings)

3) The possibility that the Krait may be a population that was left behind or cut off and went savage when the Forgotten retreated to the Crystal Desert.

I didn't mean a krewe. A lost tribe of the Asura which split off from the Asura in the Depths a long time ago, because of unknown reasons.

Look, they could've come up there much earlier to build those structures. And the point is: the ruins found in 'O Brave New World' is in an underground cave with only one hole in the ceiling/roof. And we already know the fact that the Asura hate the open skies. Back to my theory. They were the first Asura in the Tarnished Coast and they might have built those pyramids, buildings, walls. And the pyramids found in CTC is the work of the Asura we can find in the present days. After they had been chased off by the Destroyers, they had no other choice but to build their structures and geomystic generators on open terrain, because they didn't find their ancestors' old home for the first time.

One thing is sure, whoever built those pyramids was hit by a catastrophe like I said before. Broken walls, shattered pyramids in deep pits, etc.

I don't know why don't you consider the Quetzal as a candidate. They are like all other Tengu and they can speak the Human language:

There's one big difference from the other Tengu: they were not harassed by other creatures for generations (from what we know) and they had the time to build those pyramids. What's more they are wearing Aztec clothes, so they could be related to the pyramids in form that the buildings are meso-american too.

And please don't treat me like an idiot, I'm only speculating like you guys, and I'm not English, so I can't make myself understood perfectly and that's the reason you sometimes misunderstand me.

There aren't Asuran tribes, ok, not a Krewe, but a small group that came to the surface.

Your theory has been thought by a lot of us, and it's considered the 'easy guess' of all of this. The GWEN Manuscripts clearly states that the Asura 'rebuilt' the ruins where they live now. Those found in the 'O Brave New World' quest are some that they just found, that they didn't 'recicled yet.

And as for your theory that it's more likely that it is Asura because it's in a cavern, well, Vlox's Falls isn't in a Cavern, Rata Sum isn't in a cavern and most of the ruins, bridges and stuff are in open field, directly hit by the sun.

Regarding the CTC, well, my bet is that the outpost was once aboveground.

And as for your idea that the ruins were hit by a catastrophe, it could've been the Cataclysm, as Leon stated, it affected the Tarnished Coast somehow.

Edit:

Krait aren't Tengu, you misunderstood.
And that has been discussed, we can see Quetzal architecture in the Verdant Cascades - no way they built the meso-american ruins.

Just to nitpick, two things:

1. A krewe would be the term of any Asuran group. As far as we know, they don't have any "tribes" or "clans" just one huge population and Krewes.
   
2. The pyramid is tilted, and the hole in the ceiling is roughly the size of said pyramid. It might be possible that just the pyramid fell through, so possible the ruin wasn't completely in the cave.

We see Queztal buildings in Verdant Cascades, they are simple huts made out of leaves and twigs (though they are most likely things from Utopia, as we can also see clothes line with human shaped and sized clothing). I have no idea why that are in Alzcia Tangle, as the two locations of them are in two completely separate areas with a different Tengu Clan between the two groups of Queztal. Something tells me that the Queztal group in the Tarnished Coast (since Verdant Cascades is not in the Tarnished Coast by lore means) must have not originated there, but have gotten there by some means of transportation (possibly through an Asura Gate like we did? Would make sense, especially they used it before the Great Destroyer incident - a group hunting or exploring goes through the gate *curiosity or following the pray* and then can't get back because the Asura start guarding it).

And I didn't mean to treat you like an idiot. But you only did just restate the initial "problem" about the ruins (along with the same models being used in the CTC which can only be Asuran) and you brought up an old theory which I myself agree with - that a group of Asura (wouldn't say tribe, maybe a large krewe) were part of an "explorer" group (or colonization group) and built the ruins in the Tarnished Coast, but eventually died out for some reason (most likely the Krait).

It's possible. Another possibility is that they will actually turn out to be a different tribe, but ANet didn't think it was worth the effort of distinguishing between the Quetzal in the Verdant Cascades and the *whatever* in Alcazia Tangle.

A third possibility is that the Quetzal once occupied a territory somewhere in between (Kryta, perhaps?) and have been displaced, with part of the population moving south and part moving north. The Caromi might have moved in later (possibly being responsible for scattering the Quetzal in the first place) - or maybe the Caromi were the ones who stayed behind and the name change is symbolic of something that happened since. (Maybe the Caromi were enslaved by the early Krytans, and since broke free from their enslavement - the period of enslavement may have caused them to lose the cultural heritage that they had as Quetzal forcing them to rebuild from the ground up. Or maybe 'Caromi', in Tengu, has connotations of determination and not giving up, in contrast to the Quetzal who allowed themselves to be pushed out and scattered.)

A fourth possibility is that the Quetzal are renegades or exiles among the Tengu, so communities of 'Quetzal' may not actually have any ties to one another, but simply appear where groups of exiled Tengu congregate.

Alternatively, it might be that the Tarnished Coast was where the Asura originated, from which they colonised the Depths and eventually abandoned the Coast altogether (whether by choice or forced by some disaster or invasion). When they got forced from the Depths by the Destroyers, they returned to a place where history or legend said they'd lived before (possibly believing that with their technology they'd be able to face whatever caused them to leave, and that it was better to go to a place where they knew Asura had survived in the past rather than going to a random location on the surface), essentially bringing history full circle.

The main problem with all of that is the distinct difference between the two Queztal groups and all others - aside from the bosses (which use two distinct Sensali skins). Caromi are yellow (as are Angchu and some Sensali), Sensali (those that are not the normal yellow) are blackish brown and resemble crows somewhat, Avicara are white, and Queztal are green with various other colors mixed in (like parrots).

I find that... unlikely, but possible. One would think there would be a mention of that - if they knew of the history there - instead, it is said that the ruins were not Asuran in-game and in the article on Asura. So, if those ruins are ancient asuras, there are two things which must be the case:

• The Asura do not know those ruins to be ancient asuran.
• And the event which kicked them into the Depths (forced or voulenteered) had to be a VERY long time ago, so long ago that their entire races' body has adapted to the underground, which (and I may be off) would be several generations if not at least around 500 AE - I would suspect even older, however, possibly around or before the time of the Exodus.

I was certainly thinking sometime at least as far back as the exodus myself.

Possibly, come to think on it, as a result of the fighting that came with the 'gift' of undivided magic.

True, although we don't know enough about Tengu biology to know how significant these differences are.

Unless they can change feather colour by choice (or by dye...) it does, however, suggest that if "Quetzal" does in fact mean something like 'renegade', that said renegade populations have been there for a while and aren't receiving any new exiles. Except, possibly, those bosses you mention.

Although now I've thought of yet another possibility - that the "Quetzal" in Alcazia do call themselves something different, but since they don't put up warning signs, the Asura have just been calling them "Quetzal" because that's the word they associate with Tengu. The weakness of that argument, however, is that Talon would logically be able to correct them.

They moved to protect door of komalie. Almost all prominent Mursaat except Lazarus were there. I do not think ring of fire islands were their homeland. (If yes how they appeared in the jungle where Saul was taken?). Ring of fire was rather the place they protected. There is no food, nothing. So after their defeat in prophecies campaign (in shiverpeaks which they invaded) and ring of fire they might have gone extinct. Which may explain why those ruins were deserted. They just moved with all their troops to ring of fire.

Regarding leaving a given place for no apparent reason I would point to the Maya culture. It is actually not very uncommon for the cultures just to disappear....

Come to think of it, based on what we know of the Mursaat, it wouldn't be too far to say that the race was a hostile and war-like race. We know they have a historic war (Mursaat vs Seer), and we know that it was the players which "nearly wiped out the Mursaat" (based on the Prophecies mission book). So unless that line meant wiped out the Mursaat in the continent of Tyria, that means most of their race were fighters. If that was the case, they wouldn't have need for non-war structures, or so I would think.

If the lines about our characters wiping out the Mursaat did mean the Mursaat on the continent of Tyria, then that means that those in Tyria were the military (or part of), which, again, would mean no non-war structures in Tyria. Thus again supporting against those Tarnished Coast structures as being Mursaat.

Hmm but then how they managed to intercept Saul? Was it just a pure accident? It would be much clearer if action of Sauls story took place somewhere next to Mursaat areas. For me it was like Mursaat were observing what is happening between humans and charr and then decided to intervene. Would they be able to do it if they were solely on ring of fire?
Mursaat could have used tarnished coast as a supply base. Ring of fire does not seem like their home to me since except one tree there is nothing growing there. Of course they could have some homeland somewhere else in the places we do not know yet.

I cannot see how Saul stumbling into a Mursaat City (remember: Saul found the Mursaat, not the other way around) wasn't a pure accident. And I never said anything about the Mursaat being solely on the Ring of Fire. I was actually using that as a con against the earlier theory that the structures in the Tarnished Coast are non-military strutures of the Mursaat by saying they might not even have non-military structures in Tyria.

I still say that the Mursaat either come from the area north of Kryta, or off the map (since the scaling of the world is "bad" - we do not know of the Maguuma/Tarnished Coast would be a 3 weeks carriage ride from Kryta.

That just means that archaeologists haven't pieced together the reason yet.

In fact, I think I remember hearing that the disappearance of the Maya had been solved (or at least that they had some very firm theories). The Hittites pretty much already has - there was a power struggle between the king and the top general, and the civilisation didn't survive the resulting civil war.

The Krait and Hylek must have some sort of truce going on, otherwise the xenophobic Krait would attack the Hylek on sight. If they are able to uphold some sort of pact with another species, it leads me to believe that they are capable of civilized construction of some sort.

Since they are found in areas almost adjacent to ruins, and have no apparent lodgings, it may be that they inhabited those areas once upon a time. I'm not so sure that they specifically built those areas, but since their evolutionary structure is so complex I take it that they have been around for quite some time.

Gah, thought I said that in here, but nah.
I stated in GWO that they must have some sort of 'you don't attack us, we won't attack you' relationship. And we already discussed that they Hyleks may be Krait 'slaves', as their always pushed back when we encounter both Krait and Hylek close to eachother.

The problem that resides there is that the Krait are discribed as:

They haven't - well, at least we don't know of any, and they do attack the Asura in explorables - any 'peace treaty' with the Asura; and have you seen how many Krait exist in Arbor Bay/Magus Stones? I don't have a clue in how did the Asura pushed them back to occupy where they once lived.

One interesting thing here is that when the Krait were first unveiled in an EOTN online preview, the description was exactly the same as it is in the Manuscripts... except that they were located in the Charr Homelands rather than the Tarnished Coast. It's possible that when ANet moved them, they simply changed the location in the description without thinking about whether the rest of the description still fit.

I've just found this in Linsey Murdock's User talk:

The Asuran modification can be seen on one my attached picture.
After all it can be Mursaat, so my first theories were not incorrect.
A highly doubt the Krait could build something like those pyramids. As you've already suggested the Krait have only one form which walks instead of slither: the Krait Necross. (The Arcanoss has legs but, it combines it's movement with its wings.) And they wouldn't build stairs if only one of their brethren/form uses its legs.

As Linsey stated the structures belonged to a civilization. The Krait don't seem to own one. They are just wandering the Tarnished Coast in bands and attacking any other creatures on sight.

The Krait are semi-intelligent, as stated in the Eye of the North Manuscripts. So they wouldn't be able to construct such magnificent pyramids.

IF they would have a civilization, then it could be found west of Magus Stones. And IF they would be well-organized (thus living in some form of society), then they could've eradicated the Asura already. Not just letting them walk around and building magic-sucking generators.

Now, it is clear that the buildings were not built by a "large krewe of Asura" (^^) because this civilization was there before them.

We've never seen Orrian structures, so it's possible that Orr colonized the area many years ago and the pyramids are their leftovers.

And it can be Seer too, because we've never seen Seer structures before. It's possible that their war with the Mursaat was fought on the Tarnished Coast, and the Mursaat have taken over these lands, after they've nearly destroyed the whole Seer civilization.

I'd vote for the Seer or the Mursaat, but it's my opinion.

I think what Linsey meant was that it could be any race's architecture. But of what we know, it's unlikely to be Mursaat - though still plausible.

Though I doubt the structures were built by the Krait, and I think they just occupy them, I wouldn't be so sure that the Necross is the only upright sect of Krait. There could be more "forms" we have not seen.

A civilization is defined in reality by having most, if not all, of a list of things:

• A writing system
• Structures (towns, cities)
• Social classes (slaves and non-slaves would suffice)
• Leadership
• Tools and specialized skills (usually meaning different people having different jobs, like some being farmers, others being blacksmiths, etc. - which also allows the use of less-essential jobs such as scholars)
• A shared religious belief

Of what we know (key word: we don't know everything on the Krait yet), they are semi-sentient at least, they could have social classes (assuming the Hylek are indeed slaves), they have no known leadership or tools, they do have specialized skills (different professions), and no known religious belief.

Therefore, not a civilization.

I'd beg to differ, semi-intelligent doesn't mean incapable of grandiose work.

Not necessarily, though if they had any form of urbanization (towns, cities), they most likely would be found in larger numbers west of Magus Stones, but if they were well-organized, that doesn't mean they'd have eradicated the Asura. It might be that they are less Xenophobic and more territorial. They kill any Asura or other groups in their territory, but avoid or respect those outside their territory. The Stone Summit were (humorously) the same - their "territory" was the Shiverpeaks, they never went outside of the Shiverpeak Mountains as far as we know.

Linsey said "preexisting architecture" not "non-asuran architecture." Could still be from a group of Asura before the current ones who were wiped out through a number of reasons.

I somehow doubt this. If this was the case, we'd most likely see such in Shards of Orr. Also, there is no mention of pyramids in Orrian structures. All we have is "white marble streets" and "spiral towers."

I vote for ancient Asuran, personally. I have a hunch on Seer architecture that we see in game. Though it currently is a "unknown origin" - but there are plausible hints of them being Seer. Though I'm still researching and it would take this thread way off topic, so *hush hush*.

Uhm...care to explain?

I don't think so. Just look at my attached picture. That tower-like stuff is the Asuran modification and the pyramid is what belonged to that civilization. They totally differ.
Now you could argue, that the pyramids are from an earlier age of Asuran architecture, and so that group of Asura built it after they left the other Asura. It's true, that we can find nearly the same structures in CTC, but Erff, from O Brave New world doesn't seem to recognize it and accept it that it was their architecture in the past.
Although, it is possible.

I was just theorizing that they might have colonized the area. And I don't think that it would be the case, but Linsey suggested three possible candidates and I was thinking about their architectures and reasons of how they could be related to the pyramids.

While the designs and decoration of the pyramids are most certainly incapable works of a race of low intelligence, size and simplistic designs we actually see is rather, possible, for decent intelligence. Semi-intelligent usually means almost to human (or common) intelligence standards. Almost, but not there. Thus, structures are easy, cutting blocks are easy, armor, weapons, and clothing are easy, basic designs like what we see (I cannot for the life of me remember the style name) is most possible among a semi-intelligent race.

I do see some differences, but in a place which has no Asuran affect we see those towers. The only thing we know has an Asuran affect upon are the floating generators.

The bold is where the biggest issue comes in. And is the biggest issue with the canon-ness of the structures.

An interesting thing to note: The structures in the depths (aside from in the CTC) are only those which have the more basic designs, the designs of the "towers" (as Thalador pointed out to be different) does not exist in the depths except at the CTC.

I think Linsey didn't suggest them as much as "toss them out there from the top of her head" - for all we know, she could have said druid, dredge, or Margonite, and people would think the same as you say. Point of that being that people take a dev's words for granted even if they were not serious suggestions to answers (those three are the least likely, two of which impossible, possibilities in which we have a lack of definite structures).

We've never directly seen them ingame, but we have hints.

Look in The Guild Wars Manuscripts. In it, on page 38, the history of Orr is told. On page 39 is a piece of art showing a view of Orr from the bottom of the sea. We see gigantic white structures with towers that strech high until obscured by the light of the sun coming through the surface. We see bridges stretching between the towers, and it appears these structures were built into/on top of strange rock structures. These were either caused by the cataclysm or, by the appearance of it being intentional, were just the natural topography of Orr.

It's possible (as all theories are in video game lore) that the ruins on the Tarnished Coast were built by Orrians, but it seems very highly unlikely.

I've found the Asuran structures built in CTC after 2 years!
After this "great revelation" I went to Rata Sum and took a look on the Asura structures there. I still don't know how to post small pictures within my post without atteching them or uploading them to an image uploading site, so I'll be posting twice, thus all of my pictures I want to show you can be seen.


The main point comes in my second post.

I said it before that I was only theorizing how to relate the three candidates Linsey suggested to our mysterious pyramids. And I doubt it too.
Thanks for the Manuscripts. I've totally forgotten it, so I'll look into it.

It seems you hate the Mursaat and the Seers. What makes you think it is impossible that the structures belonged to them? And there could be more ancient and forgotten civilizations who might have built them, but I don't think it was a lost krewe of Asura. And what makes me think that? You'll see it in my next post.

My votes:
Mursaat: 30%
Seers: 40%
Unknown civilization: 30%

Here comes the main point. There was a discussion on the bird motives found on the pyramids' newel. I have found the larger versions on Eye of the North. It might have been implied already, so sorry if I raise it again.


And here's my theory/speculation, but at least I have some kind of evidence this time.

The builders of the pyramids and the Eye of the North are the same. It's clear that the we can find the pyramid structures in the Tarnished Coast and in the CTC. So this civilization might have stretched through hundreds of kilometers in Tyria, or they were subterranean in some form.
CTC is not far from the Eye. My another theory is, that Eye would've been their greatest monument and project, but for some unknown reasons - in my theory it's the cause of their extinction or disappearance - they left it before it was finished (missing top). Although I can confute my previous statement if the top was broken down by some unknown force.

Secondly, why I don't think it was the Asura, is because of the bird motives. The Asura hate the open skies, so why would they carve such motives if they depict one of the symbols(?) of sky.

The motives can prove a lot, and the little differences between the Eye one and pyramid one is the importance of the structure.
Pyramid 'bird'->used for simple structures
Eye 'bird'->their greatest project/monument

My theory about the size of their empire(?), because of the missing structures in Kryta and the Shiverpeaks has brought me to two points:
1.) Stretching throughout half of Tyria: their extinction/disappearance was caused by an unknown force, which erased almost all of their architecture in Kryta and the Shiverpeaks.

2.) Subterranean: after writing this Konig's suggestion came to my mind. This race/civilization could've been the first evolution of the Asura. (I mean the very first which lived on open terrains and liked being there.) They had some kind of travel network (the 'ancient' of the Asura Gate) so they could easily get to their city in CTC, and to the Eye from there. After they were nearly destroyed/killed they returned to their underground home, and evolved in to the Asura we see today.

Although I doubt the second point, because the Asura in present time would know that it belonged to their ancestors, or at least comment on it.

I hope I was clear, and didn't make to much lore and/or grammar errors.

I don't hate them, I hate that everyone links anything mysterious to them - more of the Mursaat than anything. Though for most people, this was started by Quintus Antonius on GWO, it seems to be a trend for some reason.

Nothing really suggests the Mursaat having ever resided in the Tarnished Coast, all thoughts and "possible hints" to it, have been disproven again, and again; in fact, more disproves Mursaat ever residing in the Tarnished Coast than supports, though the disproving isn't definite. There's even less to hint that the Seers were ever there as well.

This is possible, though not sure on the Eye of the North part, this theory is closely similar to my own theory on dungeon structures. Though I take it from a reverse view - ending with the Tarnished Coast ruins.

Actually, it is very far. Far Shiverpeaks to Northern Shiverpeaks. And who knows how deep underground. Though, true, less distance between those two than Rata Sum and the CTC.

This point was brought up before, but in the ruins, the bird doesn't exist. And we are told that the CTC are Asuran. Hence the utter confusion (again! These things are just, bleh!).

Those two are vastly different, in my opinion, and only similar in how they protrude from the structure. If you look at the detail, you can see the Eye's birds seem more flat than the smaller ones, and the birds themselves, would be like comparing falcons to pigeons. No, I don't mean those are the birds used, but that the difference in the head design is that different.

I think you mean Ascalon, we see those ruin structures in Vloxen Excavations, Bloodstone Caves, Heart of the Shiverpeaks, the introduction dungeon, and Slavers'. I've looked, there might be some in Catacombs of Kathandrax, have yet to check there. Same with Arachni's Haunt.

And if my theory is correct, the amount of influence, in the least, is much much bigger than you'd think. And I mean much bigger.

One would assume we'd see the remains of those gates, though, in the ruins and the Eye. Biggest flaw in this.

Very clear, and you are getting closer and closer to my own theory on the dungeon structures, though you are just sticking to the above ground ones and the CTC.

That's not the only Asuran modification. You can see all the modifications by making an 'expedition' into the GWEN Dungeons, and there you can see the murals , and the spiral-like patterns, but no stairs. As stated in the Manuscrpits *I've already posted the quote in this thread somewhere, go find it* the pyramids are Asuran. The Geomystic Generators. The Kilns. The Foundry. Every of that piece of architecture is based in the old ruins.

By that, you're quite implying that they are Mursaat. As Konig sayd, Linsey could just be throwing random races into the air, but I kind of doubt it. Mursaat, Orr, Seers, aren't they all unknown .. uhm, 'guys'? She could've just thrown that for confusion, or hinting something.

Krewe, hehe :b

Resuming, that doesn't add much to the discussion, just re-saying old stuff.

I'm getting the feeling that either way you two come upon your ideas, it's going to be related to an unknown civilization that somehow managed to expand across all of the Tyrian continent, be it above ground or below ground, and that, somehow, they were far more advanced than any civilization we've encountered, (they'd have to be at least moderately so for it extend to the corners of the Tyrian continent and maintain itself long enough to build the ruins we encounter) and even after that, be far older than any human records, (not hard at all) but, not only that, elude any records with any of the oldest races either native to Tyria, or brought to Tyria long before humanity, i.e. Forgotten. Given, the Charr have a fairly decent excuse, in that they don’t exactly record history in books or anything of that sort, as far as we know, and, if anything, they’re more likely to pass on records orally.

And, even if you don't want to decide it was an unknown civilization, you're bound to pin it to the likeliest candidate based on what it should be based on, supporting evidence, or, merely based on faulty speculation based in lack of information or obscure information.

Unfortunately, more or less, though I am unsure if it wasn't an inhuman race, or if it was just a single race. Just, at the least, very good diggers with basic design ideas (except for one area which really intrigues the change!).

I'm far from a good point of view to really talk about my view still. It's just.... either without an answer, or very hard to find the answer.

There is at least a few things which I can easily say: the structures span from the Tarnished Coast, to the Southern Shiverpeaks, to the Far Shiverpeaks, and then to north of Kryta - that is what I know their control expanded, if it was one race. I have also found their original location, am highly sure they are Hominids, and have support for them following the five gods (nothing thus to support them following Abaddon as well, and the worship is after Grenth, as he's included).

There are also three locations which support above ground structures as well. The ruins in the Tarnished Coast being one. Of those I know of, there is only one race I think of giving credit to (which even you have given credit to that race), but that is just a guess.

Edit: I should mention, I believe the race - if it is just one - which we are looking at shows traits of Alexander the Great, minus the military aspect. That is, the further they expanded, the more of others' cultures they combined into their own. It could be that the race were humans, and they have now just become merged with other cultures that even they don't know their heritage. Of course, speculation, but a possibility I wanted to bring up.

I should finish that research, because now, we're going off-topic.

Of course, that just says we don't know if they have the trappings of a civilisation.

Although I will pick on a couple of things - the Krait do have bosses, and it's probably a reasonable guess that the bosses may have leadership roles. Tools may not be necessary if they can just use magic instead... or if there are Krait forms with inbuilt tools. And, frankly, I'd probably say the last point should be more like "A shared belief system" or even "A shared system of values".

Well, one other mystery that can possibly be thrown into the Precursor question is the towers at and around Beetletun. Might be worth investigating them for similarities.

For the points, in wording, I took that straight from a work on civilization - supposedly the most up to date and well rounded book on civilizations in the world. But that's up to debate. As for the "don't know if they have the trappings of a civilization" - that was my main point in that, we cannot say they are, but we also cannot say they technically aren't.

Don't recall towers around there. Will need to investigate indeed, or see screen shots.

I'm starting to agree with you, Konig, but we shouldn't go further into it, until we get some new informations about this. As you've already stated we're going off-topic while raising the same questions and theories all the time.

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong. Again, I have to quote from Linsey's user talk:

Not a surprise. ^^
And as I've stated it before: I was theorizing how could the three races - Linsey said - be involved with the architecture found in the Tarnished Coast.
I was not suggesting, although I still consider the Mursaat and Seer as possible candidates from my point of view.

One thing is sure: it wasn't the Krait.

Uhm, nothing that you quote implies that I'm wrong.

I'll quote the Manuscripts, since you're too lazy to look deep into the thread.

What Linsey says, doesn't disregards what I said by Pyramids being Asuran. It does the opposite, it only strengthens it:
Asuran Modifications.

Whilst the quote you got doesn't cancel out my , uhm, 'theory' that the pyramids are indeed Asuran, the ruins that the quest 'O Brave New World' takes us to, destroys it. Because there is a quite huge pyramid there and some others in the waterfalls.

I've discussed this within the [Lore] guild; and the bird sculptures, as Konig said, are too different from eachother.

I'm sorry if I'm not being coherent, mean, and if I'm making a lot of mistypes - more than usuall. I just woke up, and that creates a very bad effect in my mood.

Actually, we're going off topic because this thread is on the Krait's possibly occupying the Tarnished Coast structures, while we're going into the Depths and other structures possibly linked to them. As for me, only answers are being found. I have now also noted the most recent design of a certain type of structure (three things, almost identical, with the smallest differences! Who would have guessed that if we really look at things, we'd find something new from Prophecies!)

As Liz said, that doesn't harm her arguments. Though what does is t hat the pyramids that are most commonly thought of are of a different design and said design exists throughout the depths in supposedly non-Asuran areas.

Mursaat and Seers are definitely candidates, though Mursaat is not likely, and nothing supports the Seers. And I agree, I doubt it's the Krait. Too much point against it. However, not enough to push it out from possible. Same goes with the Mursaat.

Then there is what I said. Which makes me think: The CTC must of had structures - such as the large pyramid we start on in Destruction's Depths - before the Asura occupied there. Which means whoever built it, were dangerously close to Primordus for some reason (could easily be coincidence, mind you).

I grabbed my copy of Eye of the North Manuscript and read the whole, but alas, found nothing about what Eliz says. I checked even the in-game descriptions of every town and oupost (only one town) in the Tarnished Coast.

www.guildwars.com/gameplay/manuals.php

You can check it yourself.

Accidentally, I stumbled upon something quite interesting.

Now, I'm not sure if it means the continent or the world by Tyria...

786 BE - Humans appear in Cantha for the first time and settle the northern coastline before spreading completely across the continent. Their development is unhindered by the Forgotten.

205 BE - Humans appear on Tyrian continent

Either way, it gave the builders quite some time to construct their magnificent underground and above ground structures.

Although, I still consider that the pyramids were built by the unknown civilization(s) Linsey and the Manuscript implies.

Sorry, for another off-topic post, but I didn't want to start a new thread with so less evidence on the theme.
Secondly, I'm still not experienced enough to make such great works like you do.

That's because what Eliz quoted wasn't the manuscripts. It was a document about the Asura released before the game. It can be found in the Archives, it is titled "The Asura"

Archives post

This is very interesting, thanks for pointing it out! And I think it means on the continent of Tyria, usually when it is the world being talked about it would be called "the world of Tyria" or just "the world" from what I recall. Only mention I know refers to the world and doesn't mention the world "world" would be the first sentence of "History of Tyria, Part I" - where it says the "soil of Tyria."

Ironically, looks like Leon's post of "not only that, elude any records with any of the oldest races either native to Tyria" will be true, if they are all this old, then records of the races would be hard to find. Just like for the Seers and Mursaat.

Yep, I found that in the Archives. Sorry for the confusion.

So.. which races that we know of are older than the Humans? :|

That we know of:
Forgotten
Titan (not really a race, but meh)
Mursaat
Charr

That we suspect:
Dwarves
Seer

That is possible:
Centaur
Tengu
Frogmen
Dredge

Not counting non-Tyrian (continent) races.

Don't discount the possibility of magic altering their evolution in some manner, though.

Er..That quoted bit from the Manuscripts doesn't disprove their having existed for quite a long time. That aside, as I pointed out in my OP, if I'm not mistaken at least, they could have used their technology.

See my below rant.

Spiders make magnificent patterns in their webs, but they're not incredibly intelligent. Other sorts of spiders burrow into the ground, and make a cover over the burrow, so they can ambush prey. Ants create colonies that have chambers for specific purposes and a hierarchy, but are not on par with human level intelligence, bees are much the same way. Semi-intelligence does not mean impossibility of creating magnificent structures. A hive, in my opinion, albeit small, is still a rather magnificent feat for something like a bee. Humans are strange. We could easily be compared to these bees and ants, with recurring structures throughout our history, one of which being the pyramid. Ever notice that? Anyway, humanity hasn't done that in Tyria, so the correlation isn't there.

Also, see rant below.

Any sufficiently advanced civilization will easily make short work of a less advanced civilization. Prime example: Native Americans as the English, Dutch, French, and Spanish colonized the Americas. Same could be said for the Australian Aborigines during English colonization, and, the Dutch, English, Flemish, and French colonization of Africa. In each of these situations, you have what can justifiably be deemed an organized civilization, being trumped by a more highly advanced civilization. Provided, they may not have been well-organized, but the point still stands that certain groups could have viably been called a civilization. Especially in the case of the Aztecs.

Know what's really funny about looking at your list again? By going over bees and ants, aside from not having tools, a writing system, or a shared value system, (although this could be argued) one could argue that bees and ants have a micro-civilization.

Personally, I don't think anything we see in Shards of Orr is indicative of common Orrian architecture.

Take some time, and go over the ruins in the caverns in Arbor Bay more meticulously. You'll see that those towers you say are the Asuran modifications there, which disproves that statement.

Mine:
Forgotten: 1%
Seers: 1%
Orrian: 2%
Mursaat: 3%
Krait: 5%
Random Asuran Krewe: 7%
Unknown Civilization: 81%

I don't see why you don't see that as being incredibly unlikely, personally. The only civilization we're aware of that even comes close to expanding their domain that far were the Forgotten. Besides, as Konig pointed out, the design of the bird motifs is much, much different. The beaks on the bird motifs on the Eye of the North being sharper, and the overall head holding less detail, whereas the bird motif in the Tarnished Coast has a more rounded beak, and the overall head has more detail to it.

They don't necessarily hate the open skies, so much as they aren't used to them yet. Which is why one Krewe wants to lower the sky. If they hated it, they'd try to destroy it.

...And that isn't stretching it too much, either, in your opinion? The Roman Empire, one of the largest empires in Europe, still has ruins being discovered to this day. The Gods couldn't even hide every trace of Abaddon from Tyria, and they're, you know, Gods.

Er..You do realize that with sufficient time, any ancient civilization's structures will find itself underneath dirt eventually, right?

*points at above response*

I've been wondering lately if that wasn't due to whatever civilization built the ruins or whatever in Vloxen Excavations, myself, as we haven't seen the in-between area from Watchtower Coast to Verdant Cascades. So..Possible ruins of a civilization there.

Not really. Until we have in-game dialogue from a NPC, a quest, or an out-of-game document such as the Manuscripts or another source noted as canon, we cannot be absolutely certain. Much the same as the case with the race or civilization that built the Eye of the North. Until we have solid evidence against it being built by a certain race, we can't be sure. The reason we can't connect it to the Mursaat, Seers, Gods, or Ancient Dragons, isn't because we don't want to, but because there's too little evidence to suggest it, the evidence we do have, as in that case being architecture, isn't similar, or the evidence doesn't suggest their presence there at any point in time in the past.

What you people are looking at as flaws in my theory are poor flaws to pick on. I've presented that two of their forms have arms that seem entirely capable of constructing buildings or structures, you point out that certain forms slither or fly, so they wouldn't need stairs, thus they wouldn't have built it. I can counter that with that not being their conventional form, but their form for the situation. You counter with semi-intelligence, I can counter that the Manuscripts have displayed inaccuracies or just blatant displays of ignorance.

The flaws you either do not see, or choose not to see, are the most particular flaws with any theory of this nature. That being, circumstantial evidence. In short, that the evidence I presented is dependent on very specific circumstances, in some cases. Such as, in my bridge screenshot, that depended very much so on waiting for their presence to be closer to the bridge, to capture it.

The cases which aren't circumstantial, are the rest of the screenshots I presented, as those are their natural locations or positions. However, the circumstantial evidence is what you should have been picking on if you wanted to make a more prominent argument. Circumstantial evidence is the weakest point in any theory, and ignoring it, is ignoring the easiest part to tear it down. For some reason, this same thing occurred with Quintus's Mursaat theories, but at least you all aren't just buying into my theory like hypnotized masses.

Whatever the case, I try very, very much so to avoid using circumstantial evidence or points in my theories due to the nature of them being easily countered or disproven.

Or that, possibly, Primordus wasn't there when they built their structures.

Assuming the underground structures weren't initially above ground, and over the centuries after their fall or disappearance, they were covered in ground. This is, of course, depending on the location of the ruins, in certain cases they would have definitely needed to be subterranean.

Actually, Mursaat are not a known, they are still under suspected.

Alright, whew, I've been meaning to do this for awhile now, but I had and still have other work I need to do.

Some would argue that if it doesn't have a majority of the list, it's not any kind of civilization. I.e., there is no "micro-civilization" - either is, or isn't a civilization, and 4 of 6 are needed to make it a civilization.

Debatable. We do see structures, but those looks more like what I'd expect in the "slums of Orr" not something like Arah. Though we also see at least one thing which is common among the other dungeons: the statue of a man with a sword and helmet.

Mine:
Forgotten: 2%
Seers: 10%
Orrian: 1%
Mursaat: 1%
Krait: 1%
Random Asuran Krewe: 20%
Unknown Civilization: 65%

I'd say a reason the Asura would use a bird motif would be that the ability to fly without a device interests them, much like it did humans around Leonardo's time (and before and after).

One must admit, this race had to be advance to some degree - lack of magic, spread throughout half of Tyria, and with a very very welt built structures for them to survive today. The most ruined structures that could be linked to others are in the Catacombs (in the southern-most section).

Which is what makes me more interested in the dungeon structures. Were they built underground, or did they sink? Some areas claim the later, some the former. Perhaps both were the case? Either way, we know two spots at least are dig sites. I think it was a combination, personally, some portions were underground, some of which possibly caved in, and others were most likely above ground.

I'll have to be shown these towers in game, because the only ones I see are pure Krytan... Unless you guys are meaning the reason those towers were built?

In which case, Zoldark (who is a bit of a giant) could easily have been the old threat. One would think it would say undead threat not giant threat though...

I've learned to never fully buy into even my own theories. Despite how much I believe a theory of mine is correct, like oh say Arachnia, I always leave open the possibility of being incorrect.

I HIGHLY doubt that this race existed before 10,000 BE.

I believe it was said that the Mursaat and Titans are as old as the Forgotten. Titans I know of, and I believe it was said the Mursaat were as old as the Titans somewhere.

Leon, we can argue until Judgement Day, but can't you never accept that the Krait is the most unlikely for building pyramids?
I know that you and Konig have countered my semi-intelligence theory on the Krait, but why would they need fancy buildings?
It seems that the Krait likes watery areas much more (the pools in Magus Stones, and almost the whole Arbor Bay area).


Well, I must admit it's strange, but it doesn't confute the fact that the buildings seen in Rata Sum are Asuran structures. Although, it's possible that those buildings are the campsite of the Asuran builders from O Brave New World.
Just take a look on my previous attachments. You can see the differences between the pyramids and the buildings:


It was a speculation.

It's one's own opinion. I find it highly impossible that they are by the Mursaat or Forgotten. I find it just as unlikely for it to be the Krait. Just because you don't think they couldn't, or wouldn't, build the structures doesn't mean they didn't.

Assuming the Tarnished Coast ruins are indeed connected to those in the Depths, then yes, Krait would be tossed out the window so fast not even Superman could catch it. But until we know that, they are just as likely to be ancient asuran ruins as Seer, Mursaat, Orrian, or Krait. From there, it's one own opinion.

One word: shelter.

The only Asuran modificiation I see, would be the floating objects. The only thing which is not in the ruins (whether Arbor Bay, or in the Depths). Different design does not mean different creators. Both the neo-classical architecture and the gothic architecture existed at the same time periods, one was more common than the other, but they were both european structures.

I'd argue writing in the case of ants, actually - chemical trails and such can almost certainly be seen as an analogue to writing. Bees I don't know well enough to know if they have an equivalent.

Now, this is a long shot, but... what if Zoldark has a similar history to the Vizier's? Maybe not as responsible for the destruction of his(?) civilisation as the Vizier, but another case of having 'survived' by becoming undead.