The Crystal Desert in GW2

So, I'll get straight to the point.

*Ancient Dragons lore related knowers hop in*

I was re-reading The Movement Of The World for the thousandth time, and something picked my curiosity.
No, no, this isn't a new topic, just a thing in which I made some speculation and would like you to comment it.

Regarding the Crystal Desert in GW2, we know that there will be a Desert Dragon (I'm not going to refer to it as 'Grothmar', since we have no confirmation that's him), as stated in the 'Order Of Whispers' section; and the 'Malchor'. It's stated *implied* in the last paragraph of the 'Orr' section that Malchor wages war against Palawa's undeads, so, I was wandering:

Which area does Malchor occupies in the Desert; which area does the Desert Dragon occupies, and how can Malchor wage war against Palawa if *speculation* his 'territorial zone' is only situated in Orr and not in the southeastern border that connects the Desert to the Desolation?

My guess is that Malchor controls the Orrian Peninsula all the way to the northern Elonian border; and that the Desert Dragon controls the lands North of the area controlled by Malchor. Thus the quotes:

Although the last one implies that Palawa managed to build a stranglehold in Tyria, probably in the Arid Sea, but the first one states that Malchor wages war in the 'northern Elonian border' and not in the 'southern reaches' of the Crystal Desert. Meh.

Orr is the area to the right of the Ring of Fire Islands. There is only sea north of this area.

Orr

The movement of the world states Palawa makes his kingdom in the Crystal Desert area which is on the northern border of the Desolation in Elona.

So there is another dragon that will show up north of the Crystal Desert ironically most likely near the area of the mission Dragon's Lair and the Tome of Primeval Kings. Could possible be a sleeping dragon or could be one that comes from the mists.



That is my estimate of where they will be.

For the last sentence, one could consider some if not all of the Crystal Desert (not including the Desolation which is a sub-region of the Crystal Desert) part of Elona. Much like Europe and Asia, Tyria and Elona has a sketchy boarder and can be considered names of two portions of one super-continent. Due to such, the "northern Elonian border" could cut in the middle of the Tyrian Crystal Desert by technical standing.

A map I just made to show my opinion on the spheres of influence in the Crystal Desert.

Green=Desert Dragon
Blue=Orrian Dragon
Red=Joko

Boarders are just rough estimations of what I picture the control being.

The Desolation is part of the Crystal Desert.
My bet do the Desert Dragon is Grothmar, he flies south, over Ascalon.
The one that comes from the mists (?) huh? who does?

Anyways, I concur with your estimate of where they'll be.

well the tomb of primeval kings used to be the entrance to HA. in which the mists would be there.

just implying that it could be something that could be a possibly. Grothmar does sound reasonable though.

All the Ancient Dragons are from Tyria and have been there since before the Giganticus Lupicus. Nothing supports them originating from the Mists or the Rift.

I was under the belief that we had NO idea when the dragons originally came from, there is the theory that the Dragons wiped out Giganticus Lupicus, but we have no idea what really did it.

It is my belief, that the Dragons and Lupicus are the same species, although the only proof we have of that is This Image

Edit: Image changed to explain features

Their true origins are unknown, however, the only evidence of their existence is on Tyria and in the Movement of the World it is said they are older than the Giganticus Lupicus.

I also believe that the Ancient Dragons and the Giganticus Lupicus are the "same" - but I wouldn't say species. Same way that Dinosaurs are the "same" but are not of the same species. Also, that GL bone is hardly proof - that kind of skull is all over and is one of the three GL skulls found - one of the other two being a smaller version of said skull.

Hm...need to reread MotW..., although with the bone reference I was thinking more of bone structure (and I realize there are many of them perhaps I shouldnt have used "I" but we =P)

Edit to stay on topic: I agree with Konig's map, although I think Joko's needs to be down a little farther...

only reason I put Palawa where I did was due to his rivalry with Turai Ossa since this is where Elonians and Turai went for ascension. But Konig's map seems more likely.

Konig's map seems the most precise map about the latter struggle between the Dragons and Joko. Although I don't understand something. If 'Malchor' is the Undead Dragon who has the power to create hordes undeads without the deterioration of the normal minions, why doesn't he use his necromantic powers to bend Palawa Joko to his will? I've read something about the undeads here, in the forum. If I'm correct then it was Konig's post (while he was Azazel The Assassin) and there was a theory, that the Undead Dragon was responsible for several necromantic events in Orr.

Perhaps I'm wrong with this, but I couldn't find that thread unfortunatley.

PS.: Somebody can tell me how to post pictures without using an image uploding site? Thanks. :S

You can attach files via the button at the bottom. They have to be a certain size both imagewise and memorywise though. Also, about Malchor, we still don't even know if he or she was undead prior to the Cataclysm, or if it is due to the Cataclysm that it is now undead. I'll probably respond with a bit more later.

Malchor is probley the name of the undead dragon, but we don't really know. I don't think that the dragon that ends up in the desert is Grothmar, but we don't really know. Also the reason that the undead dragon dosn't bend Palawa Joko to his will is because joko will is to strong to be controled. But i won't go into Joko.

Also the map look right, mabey somewhat off with joko and the desert dragon. But i think that all the Lupicus and Dragon went to sleep at the same time and over time they just died, mabey because they where not powerfull enuff or what is unknown. But i do think that the Crystal Desert will have some key factor in GW2

Also the reason that they are fighting could be to see who is more powerfull of the undeads, the Dragon or the Joko

I don't think so:

It seems that the Ancient Dragons are older than the Giganticus Lupicus, thus there's 2 (I'm not sure if there's more) possible explanations:

A) The Giganticus Lupicus are the creations of the Dragons. After they've completed their work they started to hibernate for an unknown period of time.
Although I doubt this because of the following quotation from the Movement of the World:

B) The Giganticus Lupicus were the creations of previous gods/deities. The Dragons awoke and slew the true giants. After this they started hibernating again.

I would vote for B), my problem is that I'm only speculating (again) and I have no evidence to confirm it. But if it's true, then it would seem that they hibernate for thousands of years, awake, destroy everyone who would oppose their will, rule the world for unknown periods, then start hibernating again. But this time they have more plans for Tyria, I bet...

I'm sorry if these've been raised before.

Joko wasnt actually created by the dragon as far as we know. The only forces the Undead Dragon "bends to its will" are those who are killed - and then brought back up into its service and those who are directly hit by its breath. The only things we know about the dragon is that it can twist beings into "draconian troops" and also raise and command undead. That doesnt mean it can command already existing undead such as Joko. It would no doubt have to twist him with its breath.

Also i doubt they (Jokos forces and the Undead Dragons forces) are fighting to see whos stronger. Joko no doubt spread his forces futher into the desert and came across the Undead Armarda, who apparantly attack anything that comes near them. And Joko, being stubborn probably decided to keep on fighting them - the dragon probably doesnt know or care who Joko is anyway.

Thalador Doomspeaker I think your reasoning behind "B" sounds a lot better, it makes a lot more sense, because if the Giganticus Lupicus where created by the dragons, they would just remake them again to do there work.


Free Runner your ideas on Joko sound good, but here is another theory, is it possible that Joko used Staff of the Mists to become what he is now. Also ya since the dragons dosn't care about anything, they would attack them, so your probley right there.

I cant understand what the bone sample is. It looks like a hip to me, am I right?

And it does make sense for Joko to reside in Turai's territory as he was Turai's enemy, he can now stomp around and say "I win! I win!"

what's the deal with your thoughts about the GL/dragon relationship?
Nothing in tMotW states that there was a connection there. They only say the Dragons are older than the GL, nothing that would imply that imo.

Regarding the topic, I agree with Free Runner, on the first paragraph at least.

EDIT: @Evasion Twenty
bone sample?
btw, in Joko's 'crusade' to catch every Ossa, he may have went to the Crystal Desert itself, persuing the Elonians that followed Turai in order to get ascended. Thus the reason to way he's there.

The bone sample that Roy frogger posted in the link. It involves giant bones that are in the middle of a corrupted stream in the Searing portion of Ascalon.

Was the last tid-bit directed at me?

the bone sample is one of the Giganticus Lupicus remnants, fossils, whatevers.

Nop, the last tid-bit wasn't directed to you, sorry for the confusion, just something that came up :P

It's fine, was just in the same Paragraph, so I thought, "Hey! He's talkin to me!"

There's two threads on undead I made - one dealing with the undead. It can be found in the Archives, I'll just summarize the portion Thalador means:

I brought up the fact which Leon stated: I also went on the theorize two possibilities for the creation of liches. The first (and more likely) would be that one needs very powerful magic and multiple schools. For instance: Khilbron=Cataclysm, Joko=Scarab Plague (I put my explainations for the later in that the Scarab Plague was caused by Aggression and Preservation schools at high amounts). Where Zoldark falls into this is unknown, as no event exists around Kryta or north of Kryta which was catastrophic. To explain this, I also noted how unlike Joko and Khilbron, Zoldark could die by normal means - thus stating he was not a "true lich" like Joko and Khilbron.

This theory also indirectly goes with the Cataclysm being why the Orrian Dragon is undead.

The second theory claims that "Malchor" was the force behind the necrotic traits of the Cataclysm and that Khilbron tapped into "Malchor's" power much like how Svannir did. I also went to state that due to Joko's unknown history as a human, he could have been Orrian and have done the same, but without causing a catastrophic event. The same goes for Zoldark (afterall, Zoldark is one of the few undead in that dungeon which has Orrian undead skins).

As for why "Malchor" doesn't just take control of Joko, I doubt Joko is on the front lines, same with Malchor. So it would be Draconic undead soldiers fighting Mummified undead soldiers. No force to take control of the other side's forces since it would roughly be a stalemate by the wording of the Movement.

I read that line as a way of saying "they are older than the time we have for the Giganticus Lupicus." In other words, they are older than roughly 12,000 years. I don't think it means they are older than the Giganticus Lupicus, but instead hints at the Giganticus Lupicus being older than suspected.

I personally think the Ancient Dragons are forms of Giganticus Lupicus. We already know of at least two different types of Giganticus Lupicus - one that bore tusks and one who's head was slimmer and longer (similar to a snake or fish) than the other. There are bound to be more and the Giganticus Lupicus name is similar to the term "Dinosaur" which is a term for a bunch of *normally large* pre-historic creatures that no longer exist.

Nothing says death has to occur.

I would have to agree with this.

It is possible, but of what little we know, it would be unlikely. For what we know on liches, it's that one has an unknown backround with possible link to either Orr or the Scarab Plague, and we know that Khilbron was turned into a Lich during the Cataclysm (or before). We also know the Staff of the Mists twists the physical world on the user's will just as the Scepter of Orr twists the spiritual world on the user's will. So, again while not likely, it is possible.

Skull.

She.

Uho, you noted the he/she mistake before I did o.o

Yeah, I'm a she.

The thought strikes me that if Malchor does have the ability to raise long-dead creatures, this might explain the undead draconic troops - they might not actually have been transformed by Malchor, but Malchor might be raising any Giganticus Lupus remains it finds within its territory - which the ignorant regard as 'draconic' partially because of the similarities between the GL and the ADs, and partially simply because they're under Malchor's control.

A possible reason for this behaviour is simply nostalgia - Malchor is repopulating its territory with creatures it remembers from before its hibernation. (Never mind tyhat they're technically dead. No one said that the ADs, collectively or as individuals, all have to be sane - and this goes especially for Malchor if it did go into hibernation a living dragon and woke up as a skeleton due to the Cataclysm.)

Woops. Sorry

It's just automaticly "he" when I talk because I'm a guy, I just assume it unless it's obviously one or the other. You know

I suppose "draconian troops" could mean dragon-like creatures and not creatures (such as humans) with draconian attributes (think the Lich - rather draconian in look).

I can answer with my previous quotation - from TMotW - and post:

It's obvious that they've awaken minimum once in the history of Tyria.
And it is more or less obvious that they were the murderers of the Giganticus Lupicus.

This quotation is from the Official GW Wiki in the GL article. Of course, there's no evidence again, to confirm my theory, but...

It can be proved with common sense that they differ from the Giganticus Lupicus.

1.) If they would be some form of each other, than they would possess roughly the same powers. So, if they went to hibernate together, and the Giganticus Lupicus died because of (?)weakness(?), then the Ancient Dragons would be dead by now too.

2.) And their goal is to dominate, to control and to destroy everyone who would oppose them. If they've awaken when the GL inhabitated Tyria, then they could've seen a potential threat to themselves and to their powers. They've killed the giants and when there was nothing left to dominate, they started hibernating again.

Although there's one possible explanation which can prove me wrong:

1./a They are some form of each other, but the Ancient Dragons became corrupted, twisted and killed their brothers to control more lands.

And I need a little help again. :P
I'm a little bit new to posting and I don't know how to indicate whose post I've quoted. Help is appreciated. Thanks.

I'm not sure about you but being taken down by a group of black ships full of undead, sank and then puilled back up from the ocean floor later, is a pretty good feat to survive.

These troops are supposed to be manning the towers of Arah. It would have to be a group of huge towers for a GL to be sitting upon it.

No it really isnt. That seems like quite a stretch considering they have been mentioned, what? two or three times in the past?

Seems to me the MotW isnt saying they were around at the time when the GL were. But its using the GL, the only thing we know to have existed that far back, as a point to show just how old these dragons are. And it even goes on to say they actually go further back, meaning they were probably asleep when the GL roamed Tyria.

Where the first [QUOTE] tag is place = and then the name of the person or thing your quoting within the tag. For example [QUOTE=Thalador Doomspeaker]

I doubt grothmar is the desert dragon, the picture shows a creature with boats around it.
The dragon is much, much, much, much larger than the boats. I know grothmar is big but, not THAT big. And the thing that says, "erupted from the northern mountains"... i doubt that grothmar really, 'erupts' or is in any northern mountains.

Yes, I admit that it's a little bit stretching, but it's a speculation. And while it estimates the age of the Dragons it doesn't expel the fact, that they are the murderers. Although it's possible that "it's using the GL as a point to show their age".

And we must not forget, that there have been no other explanations for the Ture Giants' extinction. I would bet that it's a hint that the ADs are their demise.

Just because they may have killed them does not make them murderers, in my opinion. It's like saying you murdered a dog, just sounds odd. You murder a fellow of your species, you kill/slaughter those of another species. But, eh, just nitpicking.

The Ancient Dragons are as likely to have killed the Giganticus Lupicus as the Old Gods, if you ask me. Technically, both reach back into prehistory, given the cycle of the Gods to be killed and replaced over time.

What do the numbers do after the semi-colon? I'll post a screenie.

While i'm not sure about the exact works of the forum i would guess the numbers are the post ID. Its automatic when you quote - you dont need to enter them to quote.

Concept Art. There is art that shows the dragon of Grothmar Wardowns in Drakkar Lake while the picture explains the situation of the Drakkar Lake dragon. It is not accurate and does not reflect how it is in the game.

And the MotW mentions all three of the visible dragons - there is no doubt that the Grothmar dragon is the dragon that emerges from the northen mountains - because technically it could be considered to being in the northen mountains and it is the only dragon north of Ascalon.

If its the desert dragon or not remains to be seen. One thing to be noted is that the MotW explains how each dragon emerged except for the desert dragon - only saying that that it is in the northen desert. Which could be saying it didnt actually emerge from there and is indeed one of the previously mentioned dragons.

Okay but in your post here you say its speculation (and thats okay) but then say its a fact they are the murderers

But GmrLeon put it best - the gods are as likely to have killed the Giganticus Lupicus as the ancient dragons. Just because they extend that far back doesnt mean they are the reason for the GL disappearence.

So many reasons could be put fourth - the Ancient Dragons could be the GL, the GL could of been taken out by the gods, the GL could of simply died off. They really are irrelevant at the moment because to put it bluntly, they are very minor. And theres too little information on them.

Anyway this thread was supposed to be talking about the situation between the three forces in the Crystal Desert

Whilst we have no confirmation for it, I think a great part of us agrees that the MotW implies that Grothmar is the Desert Dragon.
As Runner said, the Movement explains the awakening of every dragon(uhm, if I recall, they don't explain Drakkar either), and they are at least mention 2 times along the Movement, while the Desert Dragon and Grothmar (if they are, indeed, two separate entities) are only mentioned one.

And the MotW says the Northern Mountains Dragon flew over Ascalon, I doubt he would stick around in the Blazeridge Mountains or that greenie area before the Desert.

My question is, how can Grothmar and Malchor exist too closer to eachother if they are aggressive to one another?

They mention a dragon of ice and snow that drives the Norn south into the old Dwarven lands, which many assume could be the "Drakkar" Dragon.

Rather than counting the number of times dragons are listed, it might be more useful to see how they are listed.

In the section entitled "Dragons" in MotW, it lists 4 Dragons:

1. Primordus (who stays underground?)

2. the Orrian or "Malchor" Dragon (whose army is in Northern Elona, while it is stationed at Orr as "to adventure there is to face the dragon and its minions directly".)

3. The deep water dragon (unknown location)

4. The Charr homeland or "Grothmar" dragon (flew over Charr Ascalon territory, possibly now in Desert)



Who says they are? Anyway, the Dragons don't have to be near each other, with one Dragon in Orr, the other possibly in the Desert (or possibly not).

I know they mention Drakkar. They just don't mention 'how' he surfaced from the lake, or if he surfaced from a lake at all, if one didn't play EotN, he wouldn't know.



Yup, Primordus dwells in the Depths.

And Malchor is not in Northern Elona, you didn't read the whole thread did you? Konig explained it, and we got maps and all *community made*.

Malchor is situated east, near the Orrian Peninsula, from where he surfaced, aswell as his army.

Northern Desert is occupied by Grothmar, or by the Desert Dragon, whichever you prefer.

Southern Desert is occupied by Joko, my bet is that he went there in search of the Ossa descendants.

It could, or it could just be that the one line about the "desert dragon" is written poorly: ".... although crossing the Crystal Desert is currently impossible due to Palawa's stranglehold over the southern reaches and the desert dragon's presence in the northern desert."

So, we know that the Orrian (Malchor) Dragon "wages war even now along the northern Elonian border, preventing all in Tyria from departing for other lands... for now."

Is it possible they are the same dragon? That there is no "desert dragon" per se, and it's just repeating what we already know about the Malchor Dragon's army? ("Desert dragon's presence" could just mean its army, not necessarily the dragon itself!) This does raise the question why the author did not write "Orrian Dragon's presence"....

And, if so, then where is the Grothmar Dragon? Still in Ascalon territory?

It's too little information for me to come to any conclusions, but I am not convinced there are 2 dragon armies in the desert (although I agree it's possible).

EDIT: I was totally wrong, everyone else was right!

Konig and Free Runner found the text:

"Originally Posted by Movement of the World
Charr warbands strike out from these safe havens to defend their territories, battling the shades of Ascalonian warriors, the twisted servants of the desert dragon, and the horrifying beasts that come up from beneath the ground throughout Ascalon and the Shiverpeaks."

This confirms that the desert dragon is indeed Grothmar, and it too has servants.

That was one of my fist possibilities. That Malchor and the Desert Dragon were the same entity. But then I re-read it again, and it clearly states that Grothmar flew over Ascalon.

And Malchor is never enunciated as a 'Desert Dragon', what strengthens the idea that there are two Ancient Dragons in the Crystal Desert.

Nothing says they killed the GL. Like I said before, we don't know the true nature of the Ancient Dragons. We just know that they are viewed as what you quoted.

That was recently added by Gordon Ecker for the same reason you just supported what you said above. I disagree with it and it is only a theory not fact. That line does not help your own theory as it is just the same thing.

Nothing says the Giganticus Lupicus were controlled by the gods.

Wrong. The Ancient Dragons could be the "powerful" or "chosen" Giganticus Lupicus. Think of how our characters survive almost every battle while NPCs die from the most simple fights. If the Giganticus Lupicus that are dead are weaker forms of the Ancient Dragons, then it is possible the Ancient Dragons survived.

Again, that is what their goal is viewed to be due to their actions. It is unconfirmed and subject to change as this is just pre-beta information. How much information has changed in GW1 since beta alone? Too much.

That is also possible, but there is more than one as I just posted two: That the dead GL are weaker than the AD and thus died while the AD survived and that we don't know the true nature of the AD so it doesn't mean that, while they lived during the same time at least at one point, the AD killed off the GL.

And a previous point I said earlier on the "into pre-history" for when the AD lived: Doesn't mean they lived before the GL, but could also mean the GL lived longer than we think, as 10,000 BE is a rough estimate of the GL's general existence.

Possible to survive that, but I was more pointing to the Corsair themselves. Nothing said that they died. Just that their ships were wrecked due to residing on water which then rose. I'm sure at least some of the Corsairs lived their ship going onto land due to the dragon's awakening. Since it never says that the victims must die, it means there is a possibility that they don't have to.

There would also be human-sized troops, assuming some GL that were in the area are brought back as skeletons, it could be those former corsair and sailors which are manning the towers.

No one said all the troops were former GL.

That is another possibility.

Two words: Concept Art. Concept art is hardly, if ever, the same as what appears in game. As for the Northern Mountains. I shall just quote myself from the AD thread:

That is correct.

Erm...

I never said the Corsairs near Orr were killed. They were the ones who were directly twisted by its breath. I was talking about those who are attacked and sunk by the Black Ships of the Undead Dragon and are then brought back up (which i very much doubt would survive unless the Undead actually capture them before they sink their ships, something which seems rather pointless since its just going to be brought back up anyway...)