Non-Redundant Dervish Builds
27 Jul 2009 at 15:14 - 1
The dervish is a class that is generally overshadowed by others. Anyone remember that old kids' song that went like "Anything you can do, I can do better"? Well, in this case it's more like "Anything a dervish can do, some other profession can do better".
So, this thread is for everyone to try and come up with primary dervish builds that no other profession combo can fully eclipse.
Let's start with the basic ones that we all already know:
[Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Asuran Scan][Avatar of Melandru][Wearying Strike][Optional][Optional][Optional]
Condition immunity. 'Nuff said.
[Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Asuran Scan][Avatar of Dwayna][Optional][Optional][Optional][Optional]
Hex removal ftw.
[Arcane Zeal][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Mystic Healing][Dwayna's Touch][Vow of Piety][Watchful Intervention][Faithful Intervention]
The sort-of famous Orders dervish. Like the Orders necro, but harder to kill.
[Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Asuran Scan][Wounding Strike]["For Great Justice!"]["Save Yourselves!"][Optional][Optional]
My personal favorite, the WS/RS + SY! dervish. No one can consistently spam DW more than this, outscythe it, and out SY!-spam it all at the same time.
[Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Asuran Scan][Resurrect][Optional][Optional][Optional][Optional]
The copout option. Bleh.
[Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Aura of Holy Might][Heart of Fury][Asuran Scan][Wounding Strike]["Go for the Eyes!"][Optional][Optional]
This is a new one I made recently. It seems to work pretty well if there are a lot of minions or physicals running around. I use it when I'm vqing drazach thicket.
Ok, who's next?
27 Jul 2009 at 16:06 - 2
Try Zealous Vow. You dont need a zealous scythe, only vampiric one for cheap heals+damage output.
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Mystic Vigor, AoHM and SY for more surviving+damage. Bleeding for pressure, the other 2 skills for quick damage. Last one is optional
27 Jul 2009 at 16:40 - 3
Maintainable global 110 armor and +33% movement speed while wielding a two-handed weapon that deals holy damage and hits three enemies doesn't strike me as anything any other single profession might be capable of. The fact that I'm only talking of two out of eight skills supports this.
27 Jul 2009 at 16:43 - 4
Avatars lol, and the fact resurrect is on one of your bars.
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Needs no IAS.
28 Jul 2009 at 04:18 - 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
The dervish is a class that is generally overshadowed by others. Anyone remember that old kids' song that went like "Anything you can do, I can do better"? Well, in this case it's more like "Anything a dervish can do, some other profession can do better".
So, this thread is for everyone to try and come up with primary dervish builds that no other profession combo can fully eclipse.
You neglect a crucial element. Not only must you find something that a dervish can do better than any other class, you must find something worth doing that a dervish can do better than any other class. Elsewhere I've already expressed my skepticism on this possibility.
Quote:
Condition immunity.
So what? It won't kill monsters, keep your allies alive, or even keep you alive. So what good is it?
A huge improvement is pairing AoM with Draw Condition or Foul Feast to provide really, really strong removal for the whole party, but that's something any necro primary or secondary can do in 2 non-elite slots.
Quote:
Hex removal ftw.
Again, so what? One party member staying free of hexes neither kills things nor keeps your party alive.
Quote:
The sort-of famous Orders dervish.
Lacks a useful primary. Orders nercos can go smite for SoH plus strong removal, or channeling for splinter. Orders dervs are stuck with questionable healing abilities for their secondary function. This makes sense n the Ract-way context where healing is widely distributed; otherwise it's a bust.
Quote:
No one can consistently spam DW more than this, outscythe it, and out SY!-spam it all at the same time.
DW is merely pseudo-damage. Count it as 100 damage the first time it's applied and compare that DPS to other straight DPS+SY! builds. It's just not that great.
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The copout option. Bleh.
Lots of other classes can do armor-sensitive damage....
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[Ebon Battle Standard of Honor]
Anyone can run EBSoH, and caster/ranged classes can often run it better.
28 Jul 2009 at 06:01 - 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evasion Twenty
Try Zealous Vow. You dont need a zealous scythe, only vampiric one for cheap heals+damage output.
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Mystic Vigor, AoHM and SY for more surviving+damage. Bleeding for pressure, the other 2 skills for quick damage. Last one is optional
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Question: What can a zealous vow dervish with SY! do better than a WE scythe warrior? Nothing. Hence, it's not non-redundant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
You neglect a crucial element. Not only must you find something that a dervish can do better than any other class, you must find something worth doing that a dervish can do better than any other class. Elsewhere I've already expressed my skepticism on this possibility.
So what? It won't kill monsters, keep your allies alive, or even keep you alive. So what good is it?
A huge improvement is pairing AoM with Draw Condition or Foul Feast to provide really, really strong removal for the whole party, but that's something any necro primary or secondary can do in 2 non-elite slots.
Again, so what? One party member staying free of hexes neither kills things nor keeps your party alive.
Lacks a useful primary. Orders nercos can go smite for SoH plus strong removal, or channeling for splinter. Orders dervs are stuck with questionable healing abilities for their secondary function. This makes sense n the Ract-way context where healing is widely distributed; otherwise it's a bust.
DW is merely pseudo-damage. Count it as 100 damage the first time it's applied and compare that DPS to other straight DPS+SY! builds. It's just not that great.
Lots of other classes can do armor-sensitive damage....
Anyone can run EBSoH, and caster/ranged classes can often run it better.
Don't even try to tell me that a blinded or weakened scythe warrior is more effective than an AoM derv. Or that a scythe warrior with a 50% miss chance hex on them is more effective than an AoD derv.
Draw Conditions or Foul Feast only really work with AoM if you put it on a hero because you can't attack and use them at once. You have to switch between them.
If an Orders necro goes smiting, guess what? He's not healing. Besides, either way the Orders dervish is harder to kill.
Most monsters don't live long enough for the DPS of scythe warriors to overcome the DPS of a dervish who can spam DW, because of that initital +100 damage spike. And don't forget that DW also reduces the effect of healing.
Sure, other people can use those skills, but no one can use GftE and use a scythe as well as a dervish. EBSoH is just there because it complements the basic premise of supporting minions/melee.
You can argue that there are builds that are better overall, but that's not the point of this thread. The point of it is to post builds that at least have some edge (however slight) that people could use to potentially argue for bringing along a dervish instead of a scythe warrior or scythe sin (whether someone believes the alternative is still better or not is irrelevant).
28 Jul 2009 at 06:24 - 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Don't even try to tell me that a blinded or weakened scythe warrior is more effective than an AoM derv. Or that a scythe warrior with a 50% miss chance hex on them is more effective than an AoD derv.
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The blinded or weakened scythe warrior could bring condition removal, and the hexed warrior could bring hex removal. Or they could get it from their friends.
This isn't to say that there aren't times where you may be better off with the total condition immunity or whatever it might be (just try keeping blind off the physicals in Shards of Orr...) but unless you're facing a lot of them, the monks should be able to keep up.
So... niche build. Sand Shards is also another way you can turn blind to your advantage.
Quote:
Sure, other people can use those skills, but no one can use GftE and use a scythe as well as a dervish. EBSoH is just there because it complements the basic premise of supporting minions/melee.
I wonder. At the risk of making another profession that can out-scythe the dervish... could a P/D run an adaptation of this build?
28 Jul 2009 at 08:46 - 9
Zealous Vow is tied to wind prayers which sucks though.
This means anyone can use it and not just dervish. AND you have to constantly recast it!
Furthermore, no power attack or counter attack. Those are VERY important skills for the scythewar.
Not only that, but the lack of a decent IAS hurts A LOT!
@draxynnic: I've been abusing GFTE with scythes as P/D soon as it was re-buffed. But I was too lazy to make a thread.
Typically, the build is soldier's fury with "Can't touch this", but if you're in the mood to go hardcore, you use Focused Anger and Drunken Master, with beer.
While the Paragon alone out-dpses the dervish, when you have a dervish in the same team, their natural high damage combined with near constant GFTE will shoot the damage through the roof with the dervish. That's something an assassin cannot do better. And the Warrior cannot carry GFTE, so it lacks synergy, albiet, its still effective.
28 Jul 2009 at 16:47 - 10
A P/D is not as good with a scythe as a dervish. It's crit rates and damage ratings are lower, it doesn't have a 33% IAS (unless it wants to burn a PvE skill for Drunken Master, in which case the dervish is still not redundant because it has an extra PvE slot it can use for whatever it wants). To make the D/P build I showed redundant, the Paragon build would have to follow this template:
[EBSoH][AoHM][Aggressive Refrain][AS][WS][GftE][Optional][Optional][Optional]
If the para consistently hits 3 enemies (unrealistic, 1.5 would be a better bet), it will still take 2.61 sec to charge GftE. Energy isn't a factor due to leadership and GftE. However, no dervish attack skill has less than 4 recharge. And there's only two slots left on this bar. That means 2 attack skills per 4 sec. The best case scenario is that the para gets mystic sweep and eremite's attack (each do +27 damage).
After crunching the numbers, a dervish with 15 scythe mastery (it's higher if he gets 16 scythe mastery, of course) has an average DPS (this counts when HoF is up and when it isn't) of 150.7723. The Paragon has an average DPS of 98.14646 (counting aggressive refrain).
150.7723*4 = 458.5148
98.14646*2 + (98.14646+27)*2 = 446.5859
Yep, dervish wins. Of course, this assumes that the paragon is constantly hitting 3 foes (or else eremite's attack will do 9 less damage, dragging down DPS further) and assumes that the dervish uses no attack skills. Heck, give the dervish a vampiric scythe and his DPS immediately goes up by 5. I'm not gonna bother to see about if he gets a zealous scythe and starts using an attack skill.
And even if the paragon could beat the dervish in attack power, the dervish still wouldn't be redundant because he'd be tougher. He'd have 90 armor thanks to windwalker's insignias (and all it takes is Fathful Intervention to make up for that -75 hp for the superior rune), while the Paragon would have 60 (70 if he's constantly affected by shouts or chants thanks to Centurion's Insignias).
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronSheik
A Zealous vow has even more spammability than a WE, and also has better crit chance
Only place avatars are decent is SoO for conditions, and maybe AoD for something like perdition
And bringing AoM just for conditions? That takes a PvE slot and drastically lowers utility and DPS
And to the above poster, frontliners don't bring hex/condition removal, ever, sorry.
And earth prayers are useless in PvE except for lame bomber gimmicks
Despite the higher crit chance, the scythe warrior still does significantly more damage.
Who cares if the zealous vow dervish has even more spammability? The scythe warrior can still spam attack skills until the cows come home, so the extra energy doesn't matter.
And AoM doesn't "drastically reduce DPS". It has the same DPS if you bring wearying strike (well, unless you're bringing along "By Ural's Hammer!" or something; but that doesn't last nearly long enough to be very good). It does have less utility though. That's the price you pay for never having to worry about blindness or weakness.
28 Jul 2009 at 18:55 - 11
reaper with no name, you're missing the whole strategy of the build.
Never underestimate Adrenaline boosting skills and IAS.
And if you're using Aggressive Refrain for a ScythePara, urdoinitwrung
Like the ranger, it provides a load of energy management. But due to IAS and adrenaline boost of your choice(I like Soldier's Fury), this heavily promotes GFTE spammability.
Meaning you have near infinite energy while having PARTY-WIDE criticals being spammed, as well as really great damage.
And since other professions cannot spam GFTE as well as the paragon with a scythe, this makes the Paragon vastly superior to the dervish. Especially because you can use party-wide supports while scything, such as There's Nothing To Fear.
28 Jul 2009 at 22:21 - 12
If you're doing that, then you're using up other skill slots. IE, you're dropping some other skill in the build. Hence, you're not making it redundant. You might be doing most of the build better, but not all of it. A build with no hex removal cannot be better at hex removal than a build that does have it, no matter how much better the first build is at everything else.
Once again:
Quote:
You can argue that there are builds that are better overall, but that's not the point of this thread. The point of it is to post builds that at least have some edge (however slight) that people could use to potentially argue for bringing along a dervish instead of a scythe warrior or scythe sin (whether someone believes the alternative is still better or not is irrelevant).
28 Jul 2009 at 22:33 - 13
See the thing is at this point, THERE IS NO point in bring a dervish over another scythe user. What edge do dervishes have...avatars? Those suck in the first place for DPS, AoM+Wearying is not better than a regular WS derv, you say oh oh oh blind+weakness pwnt. But like you said in the other thread, how many things actually blind and weaken? Not that many.
Conditions are useless in PvE, AoM is basically giving you 100 health and taking up a PvE slot.
28 Jul 2009 at 22:38 - 14
In most areas, condition immunity isn't needed. But guess what? In those areas where it is, AoM shines. Same with AoD in hex-heavy areas.
Saying there's no reason to bring a WS+SY! dervish over a WE Scythe Warrior despite the dervish's DW spam is like saying that there's no reason to bring a WE scythe warrior over a WS+SY! dervish despite the warrior's higher damage and armor. Each have their advantages. The warrior might have more advantages (in fact, I can't think of a case where he won't), but that doesn't change the fact that the dervish does have advantages of his own. Or at least, he will in the sorts of builds I made this thread for.
28 Jul 2009 at 22:42 - 15
The builds you posted in no way prove a dervish can do anything better than a warrior or sin, minus orders.
AoD takes hexes off you, okay...you have one frontliner that can do some meager damage, other ones are Sol
AoM if you really honestly need this in a condition heavy area, it's better the dervish do support instead of frontlining if conditions are being applied this fast, and you better to bring no melee at all, if you then say to let the derv tank, once again warrior wins.
28 Jul 2009 at 22:57 - 16
You're looking at this in a black-and-white way. Either it's good at this, or it isn't. That's not the way it works. As an AoM dervish, I can frontline AND save the monk the trouble of having to remove conditions from me constantly. Similiar deal with AoD. If I've got WS and SY!, I can spam both at the same time while being a pretty good frontliner. Yeah, the warrior can outdamage me, and the paragon can outsupport me, and the scythe sin can out-DW me, but none can do all three at once. I can partially replace or supplement any of them.
Besides, AoM dervishes aren't THAT much weaker than warriors. What's 25 dps when you're already doing 120+? If you call that meager, then I have to wonder what your definition of "good" is, because a scythe warrior sure won't qualify either.
28 Jul 2009 at 23:01 - 17
I've been running a similarity for a long time now gj!
29 Jul 2009 at 00:24 - 18
You don't seem to see conditions are near useless in PvE, and bringing AoM to counter it is a waste of an elite, therefore it's basically adding 100 health, and bringing AoD to relieve pressure from monks..you're basically being the normal PuG half bar to keep yourself alive dervish.
And counting DW as 'damage' is incorrect, it's more or so phantom or psuedo damage
As for wearying..it's 6 seconds with no cover, WS is half that with a cover, granted a lot of enemies have no flesh, a lot do, and you're bringing a crappy elite to use it
Warrior can also DW too, maybe not as fast, but it's better than wearying.
29 Jul 2009 at 02:44 - 19
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Its pvp. Contant use of enchants allow for High healthm regeneration and massive damage due to Wounding strike and Heart of fury and some scythe skills.
29 Jul 2009 at 03:14 - 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronSheik
You don't seem to see conditions are near useless in PvE, and bringing AoM to counter it is a waste of an elite, therefore it's basically adding 100 health, and bringing AoD to relieve pressure from monks..you're basically being the normal PuG half bar to keep yourself alive dervish.
And counting DW as 'damage' is incorrect, it's more or so phantom or psuedo damage
As for wearying..it's 6 seconds with no cover, WS is half that with a cover, granted a lot of enemies have no flesh, a lot do, and you're bringing a crappy elite to use it
Warrior can also DW too, maybe not as fast, but it's better than wearying.
DW is very real damage so long as the enemy dies while under it's effect. And with a scythe user attacking the enemy, unless they're a boss they're most likely dead meat. In which case, yeah, the DW spammer has a +100 dmg leg up on the killing.
I don't see how you can not see conditions as significant. Bleeding, for example, is armor-ignoring +6 dps. After 5 sec, that's equal to an attack skill. And it'll keep going after that, without spending extra energy. And that's one of the more pathetic conditions. Weakness makes melee 66% less effective. Blindness makes melee 90% less effective. If you don't think the ability to avoid that plus 100 health is worth an elite and a pve slot, ok, but to some it's a fair trade.
29 Jul 2009 at 05:59 - 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
I don't see how you can not see conditions as significant. Bleeding, for example, is armor-ignoring +6 dps. After 5 sec, that's equal to an attack skill. And it'll keep going after that, without spending extra energy. And that's one of the more pathetic conditions. Weakness makes melee 66% less effective. Blindness makes melee 90% less effective. If you don't think the ability to avoid that plus 100 health is worth an elite and a pve slot, ok, but to some it's a fair trade.
In my experience, the only conditions I tend to worry about are blind, daze, and constant burning. Daze doesn't really apply to dervishes (even spellcasting dervishes have fairly short casting times, so the effect of Daze is minimised), but on the other hand, the ability to laugh off blind is really, really useful in some areas where the monks do have serious trouble keeping up (Shards of Orr being the example that sticks in my mind).
And Avatar of Melandru does make a more convenient substitute for Frigid Armor for A Call To Arms. Niche uses, I know, but they're there.
04 Aug 2009 at 18:36 - 23
Quote:
AoM if you really honestly need this in a condition heavy area, it's better the dervish do support instead of frontlining if conditions are being applied this fast, and you better to bring no melee at all, if you then say to let the derv tank, once again warrior wins.
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That doesn't follow at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronSheik
You don't seem to see conditions are near useless in PvE, and bringing AoM to counter it is a waste of an elite, therefore it's basically adding 100 health, and bringing AoD to relieve pressure from monks..you're basically being the normal PuG half bar to keep yourself alive dervish.
I just did SoO with a scythe sin. Sooo much blind, even RC + remedy was not nearly enough. AoM would have been about 10x better.
04 Aug 2009 at 18:57 - 24
Conditions dont matter, any decent monk(s) should keep the frontliners clean of dangerous conditions, and keeping them alive. Saving the need for crappy elites like AoM.
Dead stuff cant put conditions on you (death nova doesnt count). I'd rather have to remove conditions for 15 seconds while my frontliner kills stuff than sit there and spam heals as nothing dies for 30 seconds.
I admit it has its uses (SoO) but outside of that Blind is fairly rare, and when present it is easily removed.
04 Aug 2009 at 22:19 - 25
If your monks are constantly removing conditions from you, then guess what? They aren't healing as much. That alone makes AoM worthwhile in condition-heavy areas.
05 Aug 2009 at 13:48 - 26
In a large portion of the game while hexes and conditions doesn't matter in others they actually do.
While having a single front liner clean of conditions or hexes might not seem as much, if all of the front liners are it is a bit of energy saved.
I think that most people that bash the importance of hexes and conditions rarely play heavy physical teams - which if we think about is normal, as physical heavy teams work much better with full human parties and those are either rare or playing gimmick builds.
Heavy hexes and heavy conditions will destroy a physical team.
To counter those you need elite anti-hex and/or elite anti-condition - 2 or 3 Mel dervishes backed up by some imbagon and a couple of ER eles work quite fine in SoO, for example.
If you don't bring Mel, you will have to bring something else to deal with blind - like RC. Some professions like warrior can go by with sight beyond sight, but others will probably have to sacrifice important stuff to go /Rt.
Bottom line is - Dervishes needs some changes to do something other melees using a scythe or not (AoE scythe is nice, but axes also have aoe attacks and so do hammers and other weapons) can't.
Until then, dervishes will be either inferior (inferior doesn't mean they can't do it - they surely can) or only work in a few restricted niches.
05 Aug 2009 at 18:19 - 27
In SoO as I said, you're better off running something to absorb all the hexes, conditions and KDs. Running a Melandru derv you'll need to bring 2 PvE slots to prevent the KD and keeping up avatar, which lower's your DPS, and you'll be doing crap damage, so you may as well Not bring a dervish here
If you DO bring a frontliner, having your monk spam condition removers for you to get one auto attack off is useless, and bringing Melandru to counter this makes a fire ele do more than you, so you either run sight beyond sight and frontline, or run something more useful.
05 Aug 2009 at 20:20 - 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronSheik
In SoO as I said, you're better off running something to absorb all the hexes, conditions and KDs. Running a Melandru derv you'll need to bring 2 PvE slots to prevent the KD and keeping up avatar, which lower's your DPS, and you'll be doing crap damage, so you may as well Not bring a dervish here
a) Eternal aura also deals 200 damage to the undead;
b) You can survive the knockdowns - they are nowhere near the importance of blind.
c) Dervs deal 2x damage vs undead.
05 Aug 2009 at 20:25 - 29
An avatar dervish is not significantly weaker in terms of dps than a non-avatar dervish. I don't know where people get that idea. You still have AoHM and you still have Asuran Scan. Unless you're running Ural's Hammer (in which case I'd laugh at you, because it doesn't last nearly long enough to be considered a significant damage boost), your damage isn't any better. You just sacrifice the utility that your third PvE slot would have offered.
06 Aug 2009 at 03:39 - 30
I found SoO to be a pain even with Assassin's remedy and foul feast on a hero. In that situation I was wishing I was an AoM Derv  . As for needing to bring anti-kd, you can make a hero use aura of stability on you, which will probably give you enough time to blow up all the shock users.
06 Aug 2009 at 07:02 - 31
An avatar dervish is significantly weaker than a non-avatar.
Dervs deal 2x damage vs undead.
So does Any AoHM Scythe User, or HoHF
You can survive the KDs
I never said anything about them killing you, I simply meant Constant Shocks in SoO make your damage suck therefore a KD prevention is needed for any damage coming from a frontliner.
Eternal Aura does 200 Holy Damage
And LoD does 160 with a shorter recharge, point?
Ural's Sucks on Derv Lol Noob
If you're spending more than 10-15 seconds on a group you're doing it wrong
That being said, Without extremely specific skills, it's almost useless to try and do frontline DPS in SoO, even with Mel.
06 Aug 2009 at 07:56 - 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronSheik
An avatar dervish is significantly weaker than a non-avatar.
Dervs deal 2x damage vs undead.
So does Any AoHM Scythe User, or HoHF
The point is, you are only missing one PvE skill. Aside from AoHM and asura scan, there's no PvE skill that will significantly boost your your DPS.
Quote:
I never said anything about them killing you, I simply meant Constant Shocks in SoO make your damage suck therefore a KD prevention is needed for any damage coming from a frontliner.
So in other words, it's better that your FRONTLINE gets KD rather than your backline. If you have no frontline, then it's just your backline getting KD. Having no frontline doesn't mean you suddenly get KD less.
Quote:
If you're spending more than 10-15 seconds on a group you're doing it wrong
That's utter crap. If that were the case, then there would be no need to take eternal aura.
So GG. 3 choice PvE skills + avatar > 3 choice PvE skills.
06 Aug 2009 at 18:18 - 33
You are missing one PvE skill, yes, but you're also taking out your elite slot.
And honestly...most HM groups don't take more than 15 seconds, Ural's is a fine 3rd PvE choice with the extremely high damage from Asuran+AoHM.
08 Aug 2009 at 05:03 - 34
Most monsters don't last 15 seconds, but most mobs last far longer. Heck, even in drazach thicket (where I farm kurzick faction with a guildmate and some sabway heroes), mobs last far longer than that (and most monsters there don't go past lvl 26).
24 Aug 2009 at 20:03 - 35
Well, it took a while, but I finally found a way to use zealous vow in a build without rendering oneself completely redundant. Normally, there's nothing a zealous vow dervish can do that a scythe warrior can't do better, but then it hit me; scythe warriors can't use pets.
Zealous Vow
AoHM
Never Rampage Alone
Asuran Scan
Mystic Sweep
Eremite's Attack
Victorious Sweep
Comfort Animal
It's not much, but I always figure it's better to have one small thing you can do better than the other guy than to be outclassed by him in every single way.
And in case anyone is wondering, no, a scythe ranger does not make this build redundant either. Rangers have no synergy with scythes except for energy management. That's why they can outscythe a typical WS dervish (who can't spam scythe attacks nearly as well). However, a zealous vow dervish can spam scythe attacks just as well as a scythe ranger, and will therefore be a slightly better scythe user thanks to his headpiece and runes.
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