Rework the Avatars (PvE)

3 out of the 5 avatars just aren't worth bringing along. AoM and AoD are ok, because they offer condition immunity and hex removal, but the other avatars don't have comparable unique traits that warrant bringing them along. They're mostly offensive or defensive-based. But since none of them allow a dervish to meet or beat the offensive and defensive capabilities of a scythe sin or scythe warrior, there's really no reason to use them. So, here we go:

Avatar of Balthazar (PvE)
10 energy, 2 activation, 30 recharge
For 10...74 seconds, you gain +20 armor, you move 33% faster, you have 50% chance to block, and your attacks deal holy damage. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

50% block chance, of course, means a 50% damage reduction from melee. That in addition to +20 armor (which is an additional 25% damage reduction to everything) should be enough to make a dervish a better tank (at least against melee) than a scythe warrior.

Avatar of Grenth (PvE)
15 energy, 2 activation, 30 recharge
For 10...74 seconds, your attacks cannot miss or be blocked, and your attacks deal cold damage and steal 5...17 life. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

The purpose of AoG seems to be to bypass defenses. Unfortunately, enchantments are not nearly as common in PvE as they are in PvP. And, again, the meager lifesteal is not enough to allow the dervish to compete with other scythe users. So, let's buff the anti-defense aspect. Now, blocking stances won't stop it and it has de-facto immunity to blindness (though not weakness or any other conditions), as well as to hexes that cause one to miss with attacks.

Avatar of Lyssa (PvE)
5 energy, 2 activation, 30 recharge
For 10...74 seconds, your attacks deal +5...41 damage to foes activating skills. Furthermore, your attacks steal 0...2 energy. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

Higher max energy is not the same as energy management. Energy stealing fares much better as far as energy management goes, and in this case has the added benefit of hindering enemies by reducing the amount of energy they have available to use against you.

Oh, and let's please keep the "Dervishes are/are not fine as-is" to this thread, please. This is just about modifying the avatars specifically.

Lyssa....its ok but idk if it needs a buff.

Dervs dont need to be tanks, that's why they have 70 armor

Your buff to AoB is way OP - 70 seconds of unremovable Guardian.

AoL doesn't need to be buffed or nerfed.

AoG might work.

wouldn't mind seeing this , but too overpowered

I don't think the monsters will mind.

/notsigned

Each Avatar has its uses. Since you're talking PvE, why do you care how it compares against any other build?

These are all bad buffs.

As for balthazar, wasn't he god of warr and fire? He needs more of a damage buff rather than a defense buff, 33% IMS + a Block?

Grenth - Sorry, melee hexes and blind that have no effect AND you want it to still have a life steal and free cold damage, wrong direction for this buff imo

Lyssa - Why even have it raise max energy if it steals 2 per hit? No one ever said Lyssa was for energy management, that's dependant on the player and other skills, again wrong direction for a buff. If anything an IAS to go with the damage clause.

I don't know about you, but I never see the use of Melandru, I think it needs a buff or made to non elite status honestly. Conditions, Earth damage and some anti-super rune health do not make a good dervish, yes you have wearying strike, but it has no activation time with only 20 damage.

give aob ias and ill be happy.................
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The Balthazar suggestion is a bit overpowered, but the others look decent. Personally, I think the "disabled after 120 seconds" clause should be removed in PvE. Since there's only five enemies in the game that use forms, and most everyone is bored to tears by the typical WS/RS, it would be a good change.

Then again, with stuff like perma-sin, it's not as if balance even matters.

Basically all your avatars you just buffed are crazy overpowered...

How About...

Avatar of Balthazar: 30...90 Seconds you move and attack 25% faster and have +10...25 Armor

Avatar of Lyssa: You Deal +5...20 damage and steal 0...1 energy for each foe you hit

Avatar of Grenth: Your attacks are unblockable, your foes lose 0...1 enchantment each hit. Your attacks deal cold damage.

Seems like a "Look at my skill suggestions" thread.

Hope you mean activating skills

Lyssa wouldn't raise max energy with this suggestion.

How many enemies have the ability to block or otherwise make you miss? Yeah, not that many. That's why AoG would get all that. Plus, the cold damage is meaningless with AoHM anyway.

I like Xyon's AoB idea though.

Unblockable, enchantment removal and life steal? Even with the cold damage clause that strikes me as very overpowered, even for PvE.
Whilst the unblockable aspect isn't too much (as there isn't much that does block in PvE), the enchantment removal is a lot.

Well, I'm not too keen on that one, but I don't think it's overpowered. You're forgetting that this is for the dervish. Mr warrior is tougher and stronger than he is, even with the lifestealing. So unblockability and enchantment removal doesn't seem like much. In fact, with how rare both of those are in PvE, I'd even say it fails at the objective of making the avatar something worth bringing along.

Give Balthazar an IAS (balance IMS and armor if necessary based on IAS%). This is more conducive to the "God of War" idea than just running fast and having high armor, plus it offers bar compression and a maintainable IAS, which, no matter how you slice it, Dervish really doesn't have a good option for.

Give Lyssa a small unconditional damage buff and/or some energy stealing. +0...15 damage to foes regardless of skill activation would be nice, and since in HM foes are activating skills much faster (and with higher armor/level, minimizing crits) it doesn't really break the balance. You get higher damage and some E-management but it's not super overpowered.

Somehow balance Grenth so that it can be completely unblockable. Stances are a FAR more prevalent method of blocking when it comes to PvE mobs from my experience as a frontliner.

Overall, I think that the Avatars would be a great way to bring Dervishes back to prominence with the Scythe like they should be. I'm a big fan of A/D, and I've experimented with W/D and R/D. In comparison, D/ with scythe is *nothing*. Avatars are a fun and unique way to pump up Derv scythes.

I have a few suggestions:

Run a war or sin or ranger with a scythe instead.

almost as good as http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:R/D_PvE_Scythe_Ranger with escape

far weaker than http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/D_...cythe_Assassin

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/D_Enduring_Scythe with rip enchant and condition removal on another char.


Need I say more? These suggested buffs are far weaker than what you can already do with other classes. Maybe if AoB was updated so that it crapped out +100al to all party members every five seconds people would take a derv over a warrior, but until that (glorious) day comes, there won't be much point.

Scythe sins don't steal energy. Stealing energy means that you not only get it, but the enemy loses it, therefore being less able to counterattack.

W/Ds can't do anything about block stances or hexes.

Ranger derv doesn't get as much armor.

However, the fact that you can simulate most of this other ways demonstrates that these changes wouldn't be overpowered. In fact, they might even be underpowered.

I think you people are missing the fact that tanking sucks in PvE, and if anyone is going to run a tank in a prepared team build it will be a permaform.

Balthazar should not be a tanking form it should be a battle form. add IAS instead of IMS, and either a chance to critical, armor penetration, or increased % damage. Dervishes need something to outpower warriors and assassins that do their job better.

Furthermore, I think forms should be maintainable without Eternal Aura at higher mysticism, and the functionality of Eternal Aura should either be buffed or changed completely. Keep the disabling in PvP, obviously, but in PvE, the skill slot for Eternal Aura is much more useful for something else

As I pointed out in the other thread, Lyssa's energy buff can act as energy management. Extra energy can mean you can get all your buffs down at once and then start throwing attack skills immediately rather than the Dervish's normally relatively shallow 25-30 pool running out halfway through. Generally, by the time said buffs run out and need to be reapplied, said pool has refilled (often with the help of Mysticism).

My usual buff list with a Lyssa dervish goes Heart of Fury-Eternal Aura-AOHM (which with the deep energy pool means you can use Eternal Aura to recharge HoF and AoHM to make them nearly maintainable). With Avatar of Lyssa, there's enough energy left to be worth opening up with Radiant Scythe afterwards (or Zealous Sweep followed by Radiant if I can hit more than one opponent). Without the Avatar, this cycle leaves you with no energy at all.

Either way, by the time I need to reapply the buffs I've usually got the energy back (especially if I switch to the zealous scythe), but to get them off I need to have it in the first place - and to get it back through Mysticism, I obviously need to have a pool deep enough to hold it.

tl;dr version: Your proposed 'buff' would actually be a fairly painful nerf to at least one build.

Regarding the others: Balthazar probably really needs more offense rather than more defense. Maybe an attack speed buff, maybe make him automatically inflict Burning when he hits with attack skills, maybe... something else. But he's the god of killing things, not the god of survivability. His avatar should at least have something to reflect that.

On Grenth... ignoring block chances altogether seems a little too powerful given the long duration... and possibly also just a little too vanilla as well. I'd probably replace it with something like "Your attack skills cannot be blocked and strip an enchantment from the target." This both gives you something to get through block stances without negating them entirely, and it gives a good way to strip not just blocking enchantments but any other annoying defensive enchantment the target may have. Spellcasters will love you for stripping an annoying Obsidian Flesh, Vow of Silence or Spell Breaker.

Energy denial in pve is hilariously fail, and shame on you for wasting the energy it took to mention it. In terms of energy management, the sin can get as much as 5e per hit while easily doing several times the damage. wtfpwnt.

And the AI can't do anything about a +100al unstrippable armor buff on every other member of the team. Gee, I wonder which of those benefits is more useful.

Also, as I said before, rip enchants and dismiss conditions. Since you mention hexes, holy veil, convert hexes, or any number of other options exist for dealing with them. If you're really peeved by stance blocking, take wild blow or warrior's cunning or some equally useless situational skill. Or do what everyone else does and change your target.

First off, with escape (a shitty skill, but whatev) they'd have 33% ims and 75% block near constantly. So, basically, they aren't getting hit by physical. And they also have +30al vs elemental, +10al more than you suggested. Oh, and they can spam their skills because they cost like zero energy.

Simulate? Other professions can outperform dervs easily, even with these goofy ideas. Maybe if all the avatars were changed to buff party members as well as the derv people would care.

Considering if AoL is used decently it is one of the most powerful elite skills for a dervish and arguably any melee profession, it does NOT need a buff of any form.

Take AoL to PvE, everything dies.
Take AoL to PvP, everything dies.

It's to be expected when you put out anywhere between 100-250 damage per hit, per second.

Melandru needs its cost cut for PVE, it's way too expensive for the situations where you might actually want it...

Ok, first off, you're exaggerating the power of a scythe sin. It doesn't deal "several times" the damage of a dervish. More like 30 or so more damage.

Second, tell the guy whose party got wiped out by a HM nuke that energy denial is fail in PvE. That said, I don't necessarily disagree. However, it would at least give AoL some reason to be brought along (which it currently lacks, because right now it doesn't make you anything except a less-effective version of a scythe sin or scythe warrior).

The purpose of these ideas aren't to make the dervish a better scythe user than other characters (that's what this thread is for); it's to rework the avatars so that all of them have genuine gimmicks that other scythe users can't emulate (like AoM and AoD).

Actually, it does need a buff, because it still doesn't allow you to outperform a scythe warrior or scythe sin (in PvE at least, which is where these changes would apply).

Hmmm...How about this idea for AoB, then?

For 10...74 seconds, you attack 33% faster and your attacks deal -10...40 damage, but also deal +10...40 armor-ignoring damage. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

It sounds a little weird, but what I'm thinking here is that you subtract the (non-armor-ignoring) damage, and then add it back as armor-ignoring damage (like +dmg from attack skills). Against 60 AL targets it won't mean a thing, but against higher AL targets, you'll do more damage (since more of your damage will be armor-ignoring).

IE, if you would deal 100 damage to a 60 AL target, you would now deal 60 + 40 damage. If you attack for 100 damage (pre-armor) against a 100 AL target, you would now deal 30 + 40 damage (whereas otherwise you'd just deal 50, since 100 armor is 50% less damage).

This might give AoB something akin to high armor-penetration, but only against high-AL targets.

I dont see the block effect good for "balthazar" , maybe add the Im unstoppable effect . Gain 40 armor , 33% Ims , attacks holy damage and you cant be crippled and or KD`d .
Fine for grenth and bad for Lyssa , maybe add "your attack skills interrupt casting foes" and its done.

Made me lol. I don't agree on the 50% block, it has to be something offensive yes, else you get the same as the people running Balthazar in AB, with the rest of their slots filled with Earth Prayers spells, making them go into godmode and pump out no dmg at all, so annoying to have in your team or to see as opponent. Too bad you didn't think of something for Dwayna, seriously you have hench to keep you alive and Hexes aren't scary. WTB Smiting effect please, maybe something similar to Zealot's Fire?

See, now, I thought I was being obvious by bringing up party wide effects from Avatars twice, but apparently I gotta spell it out.

These are the Avatars. Of the Gods. Kickass party wide effects. Should be their soup du jour!

Lifestealing on one character? Kind of lame for an elite skill. Lifesteal on ALL of them? Purty sweet.

Hopefully you get the idea now.

Avatar of Lyssa when used in a decent manner does allow a Dervish to outpower a Scythe-Warrior or Sin. It's rediculously powerful, so long as you pay enough attention to whats going on around you. But, if you feel it needs one thats your opinion, ANET has changed so many functionalities as is and it's getting to be more of a burden than a blessing.

You know, I'm not the only person who can post specific ideas in this thread. Just saying. You've obviously thought of the idea before, and you can probably come up with better ideas for that than I.

But fine, just for you I'll try some party-wide modifications.

AoB
For 10...74 seconds, you have +40 armor and deal holy damage. Further, all party members in earshot gain +10...20% armor penetration with attacks. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

AoG
For 10...74 seconds, your attacks cannot be blocked and deal cold damage. Further, all party members steal 5...17 life with their attacks. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

AoM
For 10...58 seconds, your attacks deal earth damage and you are immune to conditions, and all party members gain +100 max health. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

AoD
For 10...62 seconds, you lose a hex whenever you use a skill, and party members gain 15...51 health whenever they use a skill. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

AoL
For 10...74 seconds, your attacks deal +5...41 damage to foes activating skills and all party members have +20 max energy.

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Those are rediculously overpowered buffs... every one of them... PvE is easy enough as it is, next thing you know, someone would make Avatarway... just wow...

Well, seeing as how the dervish is pretty much the only profession left that even approaches balance, then what's the problem? Now it can join everyone else at the overpowered table.

Thing is, though, difficulty has nothing to do with this. This is about most of the avatars sucking, when they were obviously intended to be the most awesome skills ever (you're turning into the avatar of a freaking GOD!).

No , hell no , no wide irremovable party buffs . Those are for shouts and wards and dervish has none of them and should never have em.

Took out life steal, it was overpowered, wasnt thinking, but then again it is pve lol... like its gonna be better than a 55 monk or a perma SF...

I'm not even going to try to explain why this is another level entirely... Dervishes are not as underpowered as people think, and if you think that we need another skill balance catastrophe, all the power to you...

For PvE, AoG is fine. I see nothing wrong with it.

Balthazar, meh, still very useful, though people usually only think that it is only useful when against undead.

Lyssa, that could use a small buff.

But to be honest, PvE is easy enough, why not nerf some of the stronger skills instead of buffing the weaker skills to equal the stronger skills' level? >_> Yes some skills should be "stronger" (mainly the harder to cap/later in the game to buy skills), but if we just keep buffing and buffing like people suggest, then eventually the game will become "whoever uses a skill first wins" because just about everything but monster skills will become so effin powerful that at a decent attribute they'd become one-hit kills! >_> Meh, just had to get out a little bit on the constant buff xyz skills threads...

The question is... how often does energy denial actually help PREVENT this? When was the last time you actually saw evidence of PvE enemy running out of energy?

It can happen, but usually when an enemy isn't casting it's got more to do with recharge than energy, and 2 points of energy denial every 1.25 seconds or so isn't going to drain a HM elementalist with 16 energy storage before it gets off all its nukes. Even if it did - and this is the real reason energy denial fails in PvE - by the time it even notices the effect of energy denial, you probably could have already killed it.

Other comments have already been made by others, but it does seem that pretty much for any avatar you could care to name, there are some people who swear by it and others who consider it worthless.

Sins and warriors are tougher and deal more damage. That is what melee's basic purpose is. Beyond that, you just have little gimmicks. But the dervish isn't even great at that. It's only slightly better at certain gimmicks (overall, the sin and warrior are still better than the dervish at gimmicks). It's not just that the dervish is underpowered, but that it is underpowered in such a way that there isn't really much reason to play them at all. If they dealt half as much damage as a warrior but had 120 armor, there'd still at least be a reason to play a derv. But they don't even get that. They just get to be a little bit worse in all categories. That's unacceptable. Anet went to the trouble of making this profession. There should be a reason to play as it.

Honestly, I don't see how you could create another balance catastrophe with anything suggested in this thread. Dervishes are underpowered enough that even if you buffed the hell out of them (in the same vein as the rit buffs), they still wouldn't be able to outcompete sins and warriors in their respective roles. The dervish would just be the undisputed champion of his own profession and the stuff within it. That's not a balance catastrophe; that's a balance success. It's exactly what balance is about. Everybody is the best at something; everybody has a way to contribute that the next guy does not. Who cares if it involves PvE power creep? Seriously, what does it matter? If I have to choose between some power creep and having a decent profession, I'll take the decent profession, thanks.

They aren't as underpowered as people think, yes. But they're still quite inferior to warriors and assassins. The other melee classes are going to pump out more damage with a scythe than a dervish is. The only thing dervishes have going are avatars, which aren't really needed in most situations.

Although this is true, looking specifically at his suggested buffs, you would have 5 full party unstripable enchantments/unremovable stances etc... consider them all used in unison... Even cryway wouldn't compare to the devastating capabilities, and it being PvE, everyone could use Eternal Aura to Perma-Form... Although Dervishes in general could use a buff, I don't think the avatars need to be touched aside from maybe lowering the cost of AoM for PvE only...

None of those party wide buff suggestions come anywhere close to the level of SY! or TNTF!

Hell, they aren't even as ridiculous as Critical Agility or "Watch me crap Sins!" skill.

I mean, really, look at what he suggested. If all the avatars were up, it'd be +100hp, +20e, +50hp on skill use, and AP and lifesteal on attacks. Party wide.

In PvE, you can get more from cons.