So I've been using paragon heroes for shouts such as Anthem of Envy (6e) / Go for the Eyes (4e) / Hexbreaker Aria (8a) etc.
What do you think of the various adrenaline acceleration options available? I've been comparing these options:
1. Soldier's Fury
2. Focused Anger
3. Focused Anger + Aggressive Refrain
4. Aggressive Refrain
The downside of aggressive refrain is that herohench will waste a lot of time and energy removing cracked armor. If you don't engage successive mob groups fast enough, it will also need to reapply it manually at a fairly steep cost, although this usually isn't too much of a problem.
Soldier's Fury's advantage is that it is cheap, the fast attack rate helps it react to and land conditional skills before something is dead (e.g. chest thumper, merciless spear). The downside is that you get exactly 1.33 adrenaline per hit, so after 3 hits you will have only 3.99 adrenaline, not 4 adrenaline. So unless you are taking a little bit of incoming damage to put you over the top, you don't really benefit that much from the increased gain; you still need to hit 4 times to charge a 4a skill, and 7 times to charge an 8a skill, although of course you are attacking faster.
Focused Anger provides anywhere from 2 to 2.4 or so adrenaline per hit, depending on what you are investing in Leadership. The downside is that the granularity is large. 2.4 might as well be 2.0 unless you are charging a 7a skill, or you are taking damage. Another problem is that after you use an adrenaline shout, it reduces the adrenaline counter of all your other skills by 1, so often you are getting 2 adrenaline back when you only needed 1 to charge several skills. You would need some careful planning with adrenaline costs to get this to work out just right, picking high adrenaline cost skills such as Hexbreaker (8a), Anthem of Envy (6a), Merciless Spear (6a). On the other hand, this guy does get Hexbreaker Aria up way faster than a guy with Soldier's Fury.
I've tried out Focused Anger + Aggressive Refrain and it's pretty insane. You are looking at about ~300% of normal adrenaline gain. However there is that downside of heroes removing cracked armor constantly, and if you have to re-apply both at the beginning of a battle, there is a huge startup cost.
I'm a big fan of Blazing Finale + "They're on Fire!", and I've been using Anthem of Envy which benefits spirits. I'm currently playing around with something that can really crank out Anthem of Envys and Hexbreakers, and am trying to get the adrenaline accelerators and adrenaline skills just right. Balancing AI use of a particular set of adrenaline skills requires a lot of experimenting and examining its behavior.
Paragon hero adrenaline accelerators
Gigashadow
Tenebrae
For itself only ? not involving any party member ? mmmmmm . I would go with natural temper and avoid party enchs like Aegis. If you involve party members i would defint go with a Blood Necro with Dark Fury ( if 3+ phys ) or Mark of Fury.
Gift3d
focused anger + frenzy. be noble.
MercenaryKnight
I agree that you shouldn't focus so much on additional paragon skills for adrenaline gain. Just run the heroes with go for the eyes and a spear elite for the most part. Then run a d/n or n/x order of pain and dark fury hero for support and adrenaline gain.
Let the monk heroes focus on the healing and what not and toss in a few support skills onto bars as needed. Attack speed is pretty much the only thing I would really focus on putting into the bars.
Let the monk heroes focus on the healing and what not and toss in a few support skills onto bars as needed. Attack speed is pretty much the only thing I would really focus on putting into the bars.
Gigashadow
I'm really not a big fan of Order of Pain, I think it's a pretty bad skill unless you have at least a 2 human/6 hero setup that can be designed to fully exploit it. The problem with using OOP necros in general, is that they spend a big portion of their time casting that 2s cast spell, constantly inducing sacrifice that must be healed by someone, for what is a pretty piddling damage boost; with a 3 hero setup + henches it just isn't worth it (melee hero/hench AI just plain sucks, unfortunately). I've used the D/N orders dervish build before and don't think it's all that great.
Dark Fury, though, can be made to work in such a party if you have 2 paragon heroes to benefit from it, as it has a 0.75s cast time, and has a nice feedback effect to accelerate the paragons, although you still have to heal up the saccing.
Now, a paragon with Focused Anger and a necro in the party using Dark Fury would get ~4.8 adrenaline per hit, which could be interesting to play with.
Dark Fury, though, can be made to work in such a party if you have 2 paragon heroes to benefit from it, as it has a 0.75s cast time, and has a nice feedback effect to accelerate the paragons, although you still have to heal up the saccing.
Now, a paragon with Focused Anger and a necro in the party using Dark Fury would get ~4.8 adrenaline per hit, which could be interesting to play with.
MercenaryKnight
Well I would only suggest a d/n order hero if you were using lots of physical characters. Yes it takes 2 second cast but +10 damage for every attack over time adds up a lot of damage. Melee ai sucks for sure. Atleast paragon heroes can spam out cruel spears a lot with the extra adrenaline.
If you get to run with 2 people and 6 heroes it plays even better.
If you get to run with 2 people and 6 heroes it plays even better.
Paul Dawg
I kinda think aggressive refrain is the only viable option for the para himself, because soldier's fury and focused anger are elite skills, and I really wouldn't burn my elite on adrenaline-gain skills. (Natural temper is all right if you know you're not going to be enchanted; for hero-henching, it's not always going to work.)
Having dark fury on another hero is great, of course, if all you're interested in is raising adrenaline, but I've come to doubt the overall value of the standard D/N. With limited hero slots available, I really don't see that he outweighs, say, the Sabway N/Rt with splinter weapon loaded.
Having dark fury on another hero is great, of course, if all you're interested in is raising adrenaline, but I've come to doubt the overall value of the standard D/N. With limited hero slots available, I really don't see that he outweighs, say, the Sabway N/Rt with splinter weapon loaded.
Improvavel
You can also try mark of fury + order of vampire necro. The necro can bring additional support like heal other, cure hex, foul feast or draw conditions and such.
I also like fall back to both keep refrains between battles and move faster.
I also like fall back to both keep refrains between battles and move faster.
Gennadios
Personally I favor soldier's fury(notice the avatar.)
However, the only way to really justify it as an elite is to take full advantage of the IAS and take as few skills that require a casting time as possible, meaning you have to make do /w the command attribute line of skills. It might not seem as sexy as some of the unstrippable chants that motivation provides, but "Stand Your Ground" and "We shall Return!" are worth the price of admission.
However, the only way to really justify it as an elite is to take full advantage of the IAS and take as few skills that require a casting time as possible, meaning you have to make do /w the command attribute line of skills. It might not seem as sexy as some of the unstrippable chants that motivation provides, but "Stand Your Ground" and "We shall Return!" are worth the price of admission.
evenfall
Under Solder's Fury, you only need 3 hits to charge gfte(4a) and 6 hits to charge hexbreaker aria(8a). Adrenaline is counted in smaller units, gfte and hex breaker aria probably requires a bit less than what the description states.
Gigashadow
Hmm you seem to be right, it looks like I tested this incorrectly earlier. I must have forgotten to keep the precondition up for Soldier's Fury when testing on the isle of the nameless.
So it's a effectively double adrenaline gain overall, but one that provides it in quantums optimized for 4a and 8a skills.
So it's a effectively double adrenaline gain overall, but one that provides it in quantums optimized for 4a and 8a skills.
Necromas
The 4a incriments thing isn't a big deal, on paper it looks like you only save 1 hit on a 7a skill, but when you factor in things like getting adrenaline when you take damage, the skills not always requiring exactly what they say, and that when you use an adrenaline attack under soldier's fury all your adrenal skills have a net gain of adrenaline instead of breaking even, it often saves you more than 1 hit per 4a a skill requires.
For example, if I use wild throw (a 7a skill), then another adrenaline attack, then hit 4 times, wild throw will be recharged, whereas it would normally take 6 normal hits to recharge it the second time.
Or if I use blazing spear (6a), then two more adrenaline attacks, then hit 3 times, blazing spear will be recharged, instead of taking 5 normal hits to recharge.
For example, if I use wild throw (a 7a skill), then another adrenaline attack, then hit 4 times, wild throw will be recharged, whereas it would normally take 6 normal hits to recharge it the second time.
Or if I use blazing spear (6a), then two more adrenaline attacks, then hit 3 times, blazing spear will be recharged, instead of taking 5 normal hits to recharge.
Gigashadow
I've been playing around with 16 leadership and Focused Anger (260% of normal adrenaline gain). Investing in 16 leadership, let alone using a superior rune, might sound a little crazy, but unlike superiors on other characters, that just increase the damage or healing of a skill by a measly few points, superior adrenaline gain and energy management both result in a positive feedback loop. Also, "They're on Fire!" has increasing returns on its effectiveness; it reduces damage 37% now, compared to 29% at 10 leadership, which is an effective 11.2% less damage taken (not 8%).
Now the trick is to build something useful from that starting point. Burning Refrain of course (AOE burning is just plain awesome). Currently using Anthem of Envy (Signet of Spirits is elsewhere in the build) and Go for the Eyes, although the latter is kind of meh (no minions) and is mainly there so that casters auto-attacking can constantly trigger shouts ending on themselves and AOE burn things around them, instead of waiting for They're on Fire! to briefly run out every 10s. Hexbreaker Aria of course, because it is charged so quickly.
Still playing around with it and figuring out what to do with the rest of the bar.
The guy has pretty ridiculous energy income, so I'm trying to spend it. Slayer's Spear seems to work ok, and he does spam it.
Now the trick is to build something useful from that starting point. Burning Refrain of course (AOE burning is just plain awesome). Currently using Anthem of Envy (Signet of Spirits is elsewhere in the build) and Go for the Eyes, although the latter is kind of meh (no minions) and is mainly there so that casters auto-attacking can constantly trigger shouts ending on themselves and AOE burn things around them, instead of waiting for They're on Fire! to briefly run out every 10s. Hexbreaker Aria of course, because it is charged so quickly.
Still playing around with it and figuring out what to do with the rest of the bar.
The guy has pretty ridiculous energy income, so I'm trying to spend it. Slayer's Spear seems to work ok, and he does spam it.
Racthoh
Using Hexbreaker Aria as a means of producing energy to spam an attack skill like Slayer's Spear is counterproductive, unless its primary function of removing hexes is actually being put to use.
Tenebrae
Hexbreaker aria needs rework , for that matter is not good and use it as a hex removal .... isnt good either , only works once when you cast a spell . Essentially unlinked broken skill imho.
Paul Dawg
Are you sure that works? The description says that anthem of envy affects attack skills, and I don't think spirits have attack skills. (I.e. they attack, but don't use attack skills.)
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Originally Posted by Gigashadow
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I'm amazed at how much damage a whole bunch of spirits crank out when they are benefiting from Anthem of Envy spam.
Edited to add: On burning refrain. I think blazing finale is a lot better for hero-henching. Burning refrain might make some sense if a human being is using it and knows whom to target with it, but blazing finale with AoE shouts and chants all over the place means that all kinds of things are going to go up in flames. It's especially useful when you have a SY! spammer.
speedy21589
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Originally Posted by Paul Dawg
Edited to add: On burning refrain. I think blazing finale is a lot better for hero-henching. Burning refrain might make some sense if a human being is using it and knows whom to target with it, but blazing finale with AoE shouts and chants all over the place means that all kinds of things are going to go up in flames. It's especially useful when you have a SY! spammer.
Giga mentions both Burning Refrain and Blazing Finale...I think he means Blazing Finale though as he does reference AoE burning in context.
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Burning Refrain of course (AOE burning is just plain awesome) I'm a big fan of Blazing Finale + "They're on Fire!""
Gigashadow
Yes Blazing Finale for AOE burning is already in there; it's actually one of the main reasons I bring a paragon these days, because it's just so good. Mobs do not scatter from it and will happily all burn to death.
However I have also started bringing Burning Refrain as well, as this increases the amount of burning, since heroes will auto-attack with it and set it off, often before I can even walk over to the mob (the ranged characters quickly switch targets after something dies, before I can get there). It also has the advantage that since it's a refrain, it stays up on everyone pretty much forever if you move fast between groups, especially if you also bring Fall Back (something I've been doing recently). Blazing Finale for AOE burning is awesome, but just by itself it often doesn't keep enough things burning except directly around me (the warrior), as it takes a while for him to get it on enough people (e.g. mobs attacking casters in the backline), and then for shouts to end on those people to trigger it. On the refrain theme, given things like Fall Back! and They're on Fire! to keep them up between groups, I've been considering Bladeturn Refrain as well, although you really need 13+ Command for it to be even worth considering. 18% partywide block with 100% uptime, vs Aegis 50% block with ~33% uptime. Aegis is a better skill, but Bladeturn Refrain might still be an acceptable skill to bring. Maybe Mending Refrain from motivation for +6hp/sec * 8 partymembers, which makes it identical to Life (120 per party member per 20s), except it doesn't come in a random burst. Also, I took out Hexbreaker Aria. While in theory it sounds awesome, in fact I'm doing fine with Empathic Removal elsewhere in the build, and 2s of cast time does add up, especially as the paragon, me (warrior), and ranger henchman don't cast spells. Paul Dawg
Well, I'm confused again--bladeturn refrain isn't partywide. It affects a single targeted ally. That means you have to compare it to guardian rather than aegis, and I really think guardian is a lot better (since it's continuously maintainable at only 5 prot prayers).
Originally Posted by Gigashadow
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I've been considering Bladeturn Refrain as well, although you really need 13+ Command for it to be even worth considering. 18% partywide block with 100% uptime, vs Aegis 50% block with ~33% uptime. Aegis is a better skill, but Bladeturn Refrain might still be an acceptable skill to bring.
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