Dwarves - A possibility.

I've found it:

Although it's a very weak confirmation.
1.) Linsey is not in the Lore team.
2.) As Konig mentioned it:

Your "Great Destroyer" is not that strong to be compared to something 'godlike', like the Great Dwarf, even if the GD had an army of Destroyers protecting it.

I shall not say that Linsey's confirmation is wrong, it's possible, but I think it's very unlikely that we fought the real Great Destroyer.

Yet she worked very closely on Eye of the North. Just because shes not one of the lore writers doesnt mean she is wrong about all details.

You cant exactly say that until we've finally been show what the Great Dwarf is. How do you know the Great Dwarf isnt on the same level as the Great Destroyer?

Your "godlike Great Dwarf" didnt step in to fight against the Great Destroyer, all it did was use the exact same power the Great Destroyer uses with the difference being instead of being hell bent on destroying life, the Dwarves became hellbent on destroying Destroyers.

Linsey did say the Great Destroyer was meant to look weak(er). But I don't recall her ever saying it was the real Great Destroyer.

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Edit:
And looking at Linsey's comment, she doesn't use "real" Great Destroyer, but she seems to make it clear that is the Great Destroyer in the prophecy. So I'm still rather split on this. It doesn't really seem to me to be a "Great Destroyer" that was equal to a being worshiped as a god (and by all means, very well could be), but yet it does fulfill the prophecy of the Great Destroyer.

Only answer I have would be that there were two Great Destroyers: The one the Great Dwarf fought and sealed the powers of, and Mr. Alarm Clock. The prophecy talking about the later (in terms of returning), which had no name was was called the Great Destroyer because it was a great "Destroyer" - while the original were possibly a stronger being on par with a deity-like being.

It could very well be that the Great Dwarf fought a previous alarm clock, preventing Primordus' awakening, and realized that another alarm clock would eventually come. And for the name part, it could be that the Great Dwarf instead removed information of the Ancient Dragons (like the five gods did of knowledge of Abaddon *and seemingly of Dhuum as well*).
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You forget, the Great Dwarf could be dead (of course, he/she/it might not be as well). I personally believe the Great Dwarf was the predecessor of one of the current gods, excluding Kormir and Grenth; Balthazar fits well with the forge/war idea, and cannot be the predecessor of Melandru (both are attributed to creating the world - then again, do we know those two *and probably four others* made the world? But that's off topic).

Erm...she doesnt say its the real Great Destroyer but makes it clear it the same one from the prophecy? wouldnt that be the real one?

As far as i'm aware only one group seems to try worshipping it/refferring to it as a god. And thats the Stone Summit who are quite obviously choosing the opposing side of the Great Dwarf. The Charr try to worship the Destroyers of course but....yeah we all know why that was.

But i dont recall it ever being called or compared to a god by the Dwarves. Only a creature that opposed the Great Dwarf and could bring about doomsday.

On the topic of the Great Dwarf being dead.

I thought that part was quite interesting as its one of the only times the Great Dwarfs situation is reffered to.

That is what I was saying....

Uhhhhh I said it was equal to something worshiped as a god, not that it is worshiped as a god. I.e., it's (near) equal (in power) to the Great Dwarf.

That is interesting, and means the Great Dwarf put itself into a similar state as the Ancient Dragons (which would also be the state of the Great Destroyer). But then again, I don't think any follower will say it's deity is dead.

I wasn't tired while I posted that, but, I was quite busy, so I apologize, I was thinking of the Great Destroyer and the Destroyers being connected. However, while the link is not displayed in-game, I think it is more or less indicated by the Movement of the World that they were in fact connected. Otherwise, the demise of the Great Destroyer would not have delayed Primordus's awakening.

Ok, that's what I was thinking you were saying, but the way it was written out made it appear as though you were jumping from idea to idea, which, well, you were.

Or formed, or usurped another God or Goddess, or what-have-you.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that Primordus created the Destroyers and the Great Destroyer before it went to sleep. It's just as viable that it "bled" enough magic over the centuries till the present to form the Great Destroyer or recently began "bleeding" enough to do so. After that, the Great Destroyer ran with the plans, creating the Destroyers itself to achieve the goal it was created to achieve.

As to where they fought the last battle, it's hard to say, as we took out the Great Destroyer around the beginning of its actions. If after sufficient progress had been made by it, it actually moved out of Primordus's chamber, then it's possible it was elsewhere. However, if even after sufficient progress had been made it remained there, then it's entirely possible the last battle took place there.

This is probably one of the better ideas I've heard posed here.

I still don't see where you're getting that the Great Dwarf is said to have created the world, as far as I can recall, no Dwarf has ever said that. At most, they've said their race was made by the Great Dwarf, supposedly on Anvil Rock, but nothing more than that.

This actually raises an interesting question...

The Great Dwarf took the name of the Great Destroyer (and with it, most of its power) before sealing it away. What if the name wasn't spoken, but the Great Destroyer managed to break out anyway? This would allow it to be the same Great Destroyer that the Great Dwarf fought without necessarily being of the same power level.

Of course, this begs the question of why the Great Dwarf didn't just kill it, but the gods do seem to have a tendency to leave Sealed Evil In Cans lying around the place...

I think it is linked with Anvil Rock somewhere... I'll have to look around when I'm less tired.

The Great Dwarf was neither dead nor hibernating.

I would say that the Great Dwarf entered the spiritual realm, or became one with his hammer (becoming a spirit and entering his legendary weapon). So, when his people needed him for the last time(?), he could become one with every dwarf.

I say that the Great Dwarf is stronger. Just think of it: when every dwarf "became the Great Dwarf" they were still vastly outnumbered by the Destroyers. And they've still won the battle in Destruction's Depths. (It's lore-speaking, because I saw how easily they are killed by the Destroyers.)
If we would've sent them to the chamber of Primordus/the Great Destroyer, they would've killed the "Great Destroyer". (Lore-speaking)

As Vekk makes clear, the Dwarves even with the power of the Great Dwarf, were going to have a problem fighting against more Destroyer waves after taking back the Central Transfer Chamber. Thats why the golems are left with them and the heroes quickly sneak off to the Great Destroyers chamber. And in Destructions Depths they had help from three other groups.

Tell me, do you see the Great Dwarf?

I don't think spirits work that way... Nothing supports a spirit being able to enter multiple beings. One being or object, yes, multiple, no.

Then there is the fact that when a spirit enters an object, they control the object. Think Shiro'Ken or Enchanted Armor/Weapons.

Nothing supports the Great Dwarf actually being there. Only his/her/its power.

Even lore speaking, the dwarves still didn't stand a chance against the destroyers. Look at the cinematic after beating Destructive Depths. They only survived well because of the joined forces.

No, I don't, but the question was not about the 'visibility' of the Great Dwarf, rather the its status (Dead/Alive, Hibernating/Conscious, etc.).

Last time I checked, you didn't have doctor's degree about spirits and supernatural events/objects. How do you know for sure, that it's impossible? Jalis knows what he's doing, and if he says, that his god is within him and in his people, then I believe him.

Do you read my posts or you just skip them? Please tell me the truth in your reply.
What did I say? The dwarves were VASTLY outnumbered! And yes, the joint forces of the Norn, the Asura (their Golems), the Ebon Vanguard and the player's group could help out the dwarves. (Before you go through the Asura Gate in DD, wait until the Destroyers arrive, and attack the Stone Dwarves.) Game mechanically they lose, but if we take a look on the flow of the story, those Destroyers don't get into our back through the Gate. And Asura Gates can not be locked/blocked, so you can't argue with that one. It's a fact, that several Dwarves defeated insane amounts of Destroyers.
An about the strength of the dwarves allies:

Ebon Vanguard: Medium, and very few. Captain Langmar sent all the troops she could, but their whole group is quite small and she had to spare more men for the battles with the Charr.

Norn: Strong, but extremely few.

Asura: Their golems are quite durable and strong, but three isn't an army either.

Players' group: Well, I can't speak from this ally, it all depends on the player.

One more quotation from in-game:

And you don't have a degree either. Your point? Unlike you, I looked into spirits (and undead and constructs) in this game. When a spirit is put inside an object, they are called constructs. And constructs can move. As for what Jalis says, how do you know he knows what he's doing. Also saying one's god is within him and his people, couldn't that also mean the Great Dwarf's power is in him and his people?

I did, I'm sure Free Runner does. Question is, do you? In a lore sense, proved by the cinematic, they are overpowered. One on One, Destroyers would lose to Charr even, or Chromatic Drakes, or possibly elementals (and a group of Destroyers could get beaten by a group of Dryders, after all). The Destroyer's strength was through numbers, so of course they would be outnumbered. But due to that outnumbered-ness, without the allied support, they would not have done so well. The Ebon Vanguard sucked (few supposedly survived based on the Epilogue), the Norn all survived, the Golems survived. Point is, while the stone dwarves were probably the strongest allies aside from the golems, they would still be completely wiped out by the destroyers, and pretty much were. Not only were very few left (in accordance to the Movement of the World), but the cinematic also supports that the dwarves were overpowered.

Keep in mind, overpowered and outnumbered can go hand in hand at times. The Dwarves vs the Destroyers' case would be one of those times.

No, it's not. Why? Because we killed all the Destroyers behind us (and those we didn't, would be stopped by the Norn, Asura, and Ebon Vanguard - what's left of the last at least).

That quote proves they were mostly killed... "They held..." past tense, meaning done. Now then, think, Norn's view of a hero? Those who die gloriously in battle (more or less).

I read your posts, please do not pull that card, its very boring.

You say the Great Dwarf was stronger than the Great Destroyer.

You then say they were outnumbered which is true for what we see, the Destroyers come in swarms and easily overrun the Dwarves.

Then you go on to say despite being outnumbered they won the battle in Destructions Depths. This is incorrect because it was the aid of the other races that allowed victory in that battle. They were merely a side in that fight, and without the other races they would of been destroyed.

Now like i said in my other post, Vekk actually states the Great Dwarfs power still didnt guarentee a win for them. Infact they decide to leave a couple of golems behind to help them. This goes in good with what you just said.

Obviously those Destroyers did come through or else there would of been no need to leave behind the Golems. And those several Dwarves defeated Destroyers with help.

Lets just get to the point - if the Great Dwarf was much more stronger than the Great Destroyer then being simply outnumbered wouldnt of mattered. They are on the same level, both the power of the Great Dwarf and the power of the Great Destroyer. They were evenly matched and in the end it came down to which side had more fighters to spare.

Yes, you made great theories, and of course, I have no degree either. I saw your work about spirits and undead, it was great and I liked it very much, but aside from some in-game quotations/examples, nobody (except the lore team, probably) could prove, that you conception is true.
On your view about the power stored in the Hammer, I must say it's much more possible, then my speculation about "the whole Great Dwarf's spirit is within the weapon".
But how it is possible? We've only seen as Abaddon died(?), and all its power and knowledge was usurped by a mortal. But how can a godlike being "take", and "seal" its power in an object? And, is it possible, that along the power, the weapon contained a few memories from the life of the Great Dwarf?

We didn't kill all of them. After we get to the Gate which transports us to the Central Transfer Chamber, don't go through it, just wait. After the dialogue ends, vast groups of Destroyers come from the direction, we've arrived before. I've counted only two, because I tried to fight them off, but we were badly outnumbered, and I wanted to finish off the rest of the mission.

I fail to see, that under 'held' why do you think they are dead. They could've survived and moved to a another part of the area.

Which means the hammer could be a simple rally point for the dwarf or simply bear an enchantment from the great dwarf that would give his powers to the dwarves.

SO perhaps the prophecy, didn't expect the dwarves winning even with the GDwarf power. They would be wiped with or without help, but the blssding upgraded them from "harder hitting humans" to "Norn or weak golem power".
Seeing as they were more numerous and more willing tocharge head on. It'S not really surprising a lot of them die. They probably played the role of the expendable infantry (tought a particulary robust form).
The way I understood the cinematics, they wanted to kill every single destroyers before going for the Great. While the others realized theywould loose and we went for the kill right away. SO they probably helped us a lot.


Comming back to the prophecy subject. We seem to know that the name was only known by alkar and the rubicon hierophant, the former didnt speak it, the later died before doing so.
And we know the central transfer chanber was close to Primordius (who was bleeding magic) and (I think) using primordius magic to power the gates. So what if they didn't acivate the prophecy by tapping into Primordius? Probably starting by awakening the destroyers
That wouldn't be the first time in fiction we saw the curious scientist screw up things.
And would explain why he awakened without his name spoken.

Because the prophecy said the Name was the key to unlocking his power, does that nescessary means that someone can't take the third option and pick the lock.

I've done additional research since the last stuff put up on the forums. The additional research includes constructs, which is what the hammer would be if the Great Dwarf's spirit was in there. (It would also mean the Great Dwarf is dead, btw).

How is it possible? Well, I wouldn't say it was his power itself, but more of a spell, similar to what was on the Forbidden Scrolls that caused the Cataclysm, or the Cauldron of Cataclysm which caused the Searing. I'd say the hammer is on par with the type of object those two are.

As for memories, there's no known case *to me at least* of memories being put into a object (in GW mind you), but doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Don't recall Destroyers coming at us after the stone dwarves' dialogue. Besides, I said "(and those we didn't..." - so I didn't mean ALL Destroyers, just all in our path.

(and those we didn'tI fail to see, that under 'held' why do you think they are dead. They could've survived and moved to a another part of the area.[/QUOTE]If Destroyers were still coming, why would they move to another part? Logic fails there.

Technically speaking, if you had enough of them, they definitely would have with the stone making them impervious to the lava of the chamber.

Tell me, do you ever see the Old Gods? The point is, in both cases, there's a large amount of doubt, with the only support of the Great Dwarf's status being: The Great Dwarf is far different, though, he is a God. That changes everything, and while Thalador is still new here, we both know quite well that the the power of a God or Goddess has been speculated to be separate from the actual spirit of the God or Goddess. That is, with the spirit possibly containing the power, but not being intertwined. (Basically, think of pouring water into a glass, but the interior not getting wet.)

Besides that, he does provide an alternative (see above) that isn't incredibly unbelievable, as we've seen similar things done in the case of Abaddon. (Forbidden Scrolls. Possibly Apocrypha. Cauldron of Cataclysm.)* Albeit perhaps merely the Great Dwarf's power, instead of its spirit, but it's better than most new people, as it is close to some of our ideas, even without (apparent) research.

*-Note, wrote this before reading the later posts involved with this discussion.

However, there is a possibility that the soul can enter multiple objects..I'll explain later in this post.

Except that, you know, there's no support for spirits in the Enchanted Armors or Weapons example.

Unless it's possible for a God to dissolve itself, releasing its power without destroying the world through channeling it into the souls of an entire race, thus being there without being there, in a way. Bizarre? Yes, but impossible? I don't think so.

Not necessarily. See: Soul Batteries. Ritualist Urns. (Although, that's a tad unclear..Can't say I know with certainty how that process works precisely, whether it's the soul bound into the ashes or just the power of the individual.) Spear of Archemorus. (Seems to suggest the absorption of souls of dying enemies, or at least their energy, if the former, then it's a case that goes against souls in objects equaling constructs.)

Not only that, but we do see another scenario..Leaving it for a later point, though.

Not completely. Note that even after the battle with the Great Destroyer, there were many Destroyers left wandering the Depths of Tyria, which the Deldrimor Dwarves hunted down and killed. Does this mean that their numbers were reduced solely due to the Destroyers? No, I do not think so. Rather, I think that we should all know by now that the Depths of Tyria are highly dangerous, and anything could happen down there, causing the death of them. Cave-ins, earthquakes, magma breaking through the wall, just a variety of hazards that could have helped reduce their numbers.

Well, technically, it would contain his power, if he was the one to create the spell and enchant the object with it. Similar scenario with the Forbidden Scrolls, assuming the words Khilbron read were just the activation code to a spell Abaddon had enchanted the object with.

(Been building up to this point, but then couldn't find the line I recalled seeing that spurred my thought. )

Anyway, this is just on the point of souls I kept saying I was putting off to a later point. It has been speculated that the Jade Armors encountered when fighting with the Mursaat contained souls of the Chosen, which were used to fight for their own cause, however, after the quest chain in the Eye of the North displaying the Aspect property of the Mursaat..This gives us another idea entirely. That is to say, the Jade Armors aren't exactly souls being contained, but rather aspects of the Mursaat placed within them to utilize them.

It may even be that the aspects of the Mursaat are divisions of the soul of the Mursaat in question. Which may indicate that they just scatter themselves into aspects prior to death, and reform occupying the Jade Armors, or whatever they are capable of occupying. Thus, not only would the memory be preserved within another object prior to reassembling, but the soul would be capable of occupying multiple hosts. Assuming, of course, that I am correct.

The fact we don't see the Old Gods was kind of where I was going: We cannot really tell, except through the fact of the lack of contact and actions from the Great Dwarf. Even the Old Gods have avatars which do some of their actions. Grenth and Dwayna duke it out yearly, afterall. Great Dwarf? Only actions which could be attributed is through an object, which doesn't need him there.

Which would mean that, if the Great Dwarf was a real god, and the hammer is filled with the Great Dwarf's power, that implies there was originally 7 gods.

You do need to read all posts before commenting at times. :P

True, those may be golems (magically enchanted and not spiritually "possessed"), but Shiro'ken, Titans, and Juggernauts (all confirmed constructs), are all mobile. Now if some Shiro'ken (which are made out of flesh, bones, stone, and armor) can float, nothing argues against weapons from floating. And even so, all cases of constructs are spirits inside objects and all can move on their own. the hammer used by Jalis does not move on its own.

Never said impossible. That would actually be the best way to get rid of a god without replacement. Though, why one would do that, who knows.

Those are more like prisons, like Soul Stones, which uses the soul to power movement.

For the Urns, I don't think the spirit is trapped in the urns, but instead that the ritualists use relics to more easily call upon the spirit. Think of the newest wintersday quest in EN, where we call upon Gwen's mother, Sarah: our connection item was a loose connection (an object belonging to, not a relic of the person) so it was less direct to call the spirit *and the area was a weak barrier between Tyria and the Underworld, which didn't help*. For the Spear of Archemorus and the Urn of Saint Viktor, those are confusing cases as it seems like a bit of a Soul Reaping thing going on... (or Aggression magic)

... Technicalities, technicalities... One's spell being one's power, yes and no. I was meaning it wasn't the god-like power, but the power of the spell. Confusing, a bit, but how I see it, there would be two meanings to the term "power" in this case.

Well, occupying multiple hosts is possible, proven by Lazarus. However, he had no apparent influence over the Justiciar. That cannot be said for the Great Dwarf.

Still not sure precisely how viable the festivities are. Certain bits, yes, but nonetheless. Although, I could easily say Grenth and Dwayna don't actually duke it out, but instead, just their minions do.

There's nothing to suggest that the Great Dwarf isn't a real God. Nothing but your own ideas and his lack of interaction, which is explained by Alkar's quote, that he is in slumber. Why? Who knows. Same can be said for the human Gods' Exodus.

I wasn't arguing for whether or not the hammer was a construct, but more along the lines of an object containing a soul is not always necessarily a construct. Nor was I arguing that a construct is not a spirit residing within an object. More or less, I was saying that just because it's animated and without flesh, does not make it a construct. Until we have something within lore to suggest a soul being involved with such a thing, we should not assume that it has one.

That's about as absurd as assuming the floating rocks are constructs containing souls due to being animated and without flesh.

Never said you said it was impossible. Why one would do that? To remove yourself from the constant slaughter of the Godly pantheon, I'd say. From what we can tell, unless a God or Goddess finds a method of getting rid of its power aside from being killed, it must remain a God or Goddess until it is usurped. Albeit with Dhuum being the odd exception, although perhaps not entirely odd, as he was a God of Death.

Er..What? Soul Batteries don't use the soul to power movement, and they aren't like prisons either. They literally sap the soul's energy, which is where they would be similar to the Soul Stones, perhaps, to maintain the seal on the Door of Komalie.

Technicalities are an absolute necessity to prove or disprove a point, as any technicality can easily undermine your ideas. As a matter of fact, you're doing the very same thing, except in this case you're splitting hairs in your favor based on your view of the meaning of power in regards to Gods.

Well, yeah, but like I said earlier, there's a major difference between a mortal being and a deity which can radically change things. Gods and Goddesses in Tyria seem to lack complete omniscience, but they do at least seem to have an overview of the world to some extent. In this case, they may have a higher consciousness, a higher sentience, which allows some influence to remain despite being divided into minuscule parts.

However, I do have to say that whenever Lazarus was trying to reclaim the aspect, he did have the adverse effect of death, so it does have some degree of influence. Not to mention whenever one tries to alter the aspects, Justiciar Naveed does feel something. But independent influence, indeed it has not.

Also, interesting tidbit I noticed that's rather irrelevant to the Dwarf topic, but: It is removed from the pattern of the world, did Glayvin incidentally find a way to severe a being's ability to use magic? Is this an indication that magic is inherently related to the soul of a being? Interesting, interesting, indeed.

He does? Weird.

But I still think Anet has given themselves just enough rope with which to have the dwarves survive as a race if they so chose (ie, they can bring them back any time they want to).

So, I guess then we'll have to assume that the dwarves are a dying race until proven otherwise.

Unless...

Wait, how do we know the dwarves have become sterile from their transformations? Everything else is working, so why wouldn't their..."naughty bits" still work with other dwarves who had undergone the ritual?

Yeah, I know, the dwarven race is finished, yadda yadda. But what if that is only referring to their civilization? How do we know that the dwarves haven't simply become more like the norn, only spread out across the subterrainian parts of the world and rarely meeting to reproduce? It seems strange to me that the Great Dwarf would order his people "Ok, I want the destroyers dead, and you're going to throw away all hope of ever being able to stop them again in the future should you miss some this time by all turning to stone, even though I could just have MOST of you turn to stone and get the same effect, without the risk of leaving you unable to stop them again when you all die and they potentially rise again".

This may be worth looking into - I have a vague memory of it actually being stated that the Kurzicks and Luxons believe the artifacts to contain the spirits of their heroes. Doesn't mean they're right, of course, but they would be examples of soul-carrying objects that aren't mobile... but, yet, are possibly more powerful than any of the constructs magically. Maybe there's two 'modes' of posession - one in which the spirit can cause the object to move, and one in which the spirit saves its energies for something else?

(Either way, they both do seem to be powered by the aggression bloodstone, but that fits the theory of that being the magic type associated with the dead...)

That is interesting... and it explains why Lazarus nicked off rather than seeking revenge there and then.

Although I must admit to feeling that the majority of characters doing that quest possibly should have just jumped Lazarus then and there in his weakened state (it's not like we haven't taken out other Mursaat bosses). I've thought that he was probably made "friendly" because ANet decided it wasn't fair for players without Prophecies to face Spectral Agony, but the weakening would have given an excellent excuse for Lazarus to lose that ability. I wonder if it'll turn out that there are lore reasons for that (besides "ANet wanted him to get away for lore purposes" - they could have let him get taken out, had another new Mursaat in the BMP instead of Mercia the Smug, and then have it revealed later that that Mursaat used the same trick without any complications).

The dwarves are no longer biological, and the "naughty bits" are a biological function. The womb, now being made of stone, may no longer be able to expand to allow a child to grow even if conception can occur. Heck, given that their clothes turned to stone with them, we don't even know if their stone clothes can even be removed or whether they've become part of the dwarf that was wearing them...

In the end, though, we don't know for sure that they're sterile, but given that in GW2 they're presented as a race that has undergone serious attrition and taken to being hermits, it seems reasonable that the likely reason is that they've become sterile and... not really immortal, since that technically means they can't die at all, but no longer subject to dying because of age.

But it is still showing their existence - to an extent. Where is the proof the Great Dwarf is still around? Stories. No avatar. No "minions." Only followers are the dwarves.

Er, I never said he wasn't a god... I said he was no longer around... I.e., I say he either was part of an older generation (I believe this to be the case), was a seventh god, or he wasn't a god at all. I find the last one unlikely.

For what a construct is, one can say it is based on your own use for the word. Its meaning is something that is constructed. My use for construct is using that word as a name for objects powered by a soul being within it that is not an undead.

And you are right, just because it is animated and without a flesh, it is not necessarily a construct. It could be an elemental (something of the elements *water, earth, fire, ice, etc* powered by magic) or a golem *any other object that is powered by magic and not a soul*.

As for "Until we have something within lore to suggest a soul being involved with such a thing, we should not assume that it has one." That was actually what I was saying for the hammer...

"Bizarre? Yes, but impossible? I don't think so." You did say impossible.

Uhhh... I meant the Soul Stones use the soul to power movement... the Soul Batteries (which are like prisons, as the soul cannot escape unless "freed"), the Soul Batteries, as you said, power the Door of Komalie.

I was just explaining my use of the words. Difference in location can easily cause a difference in use of terms, so it's always good to try to explain one's use of term. Even among those in my areas, my use of terms is... unusual so I end up confusing people twice as often with words.

So it's not so much as splitting hairs, but more of trying to explain what I meant. So while using the term in your use, your right, and while using it in my use, I'm right.

Ok, now you're splitting hairs here. You're trying to explain how you could be right when we have no clue about it. We don't know the status of the Great Dwarf (in terms of "ranking" of deity), we do not know if there would be a difference between a highly powerful mage of a mortal being and a deity splitting their essence.

Killing in order to reclaim an aspect does not mean an influence over the being that the aspect was infused (one could say) into.

The race is still around, but cannot reproduce. Their civilization was destroyed. The Norn do have a civilization (writing, shared belief, structures, and a social structure is all that is needed).

As for your little Great Dwarf saying, the dwarves were going to be removed no matter what, according to the prophecy. So either have them all wiped out by the Destroyers, or have a few survive the battle with the Great Destroyer and have the last remnants survive as long as they could. Either way, both the race and the civilization would be destroyed.

The thing is, if those objects do carry the souls, then why must they be dropped to be activated? I think they are the same as the regular ashes, but the only of those two, and therefore much more powerful. That is, the urn and spear call upon the spirit, not hold the spirit. And the power in which the spirit returns is stronger.

The only question is the charging part - but we are sure that can be even lore? I am unsure, personally.

Well, they certainly seem to be related to Ritualist item spells in behaviour.

Of course, we don't really understand just how Ritualist item spells work - the most likely scenario, in my mind, is that they work by the Ritualise infusing a spirit into the pot - just like the Spear and Urn may contain (part of) the spirits of the heroes in question... but the Spear and Urn don't need a ritualist to be activated.

(Regarding being dropped... that may simply be ANet's way of getting around the engine limitations of not having a way to 'activate' a held item - in lore, activation of the Spear and Urn may not actually involve dropping it onto the ground. The same may be true of regular ashpots, with the item being consumed by the drop-effect being triggered rather than literally dropped.)

And Saidra's ashes in EN.

Hmmm, that is true - except for Saidra's ashes, but then again Saidra's ashes cannot be dropped and picked up repeatedly.

If a King has a messenger bound to his will, stating that he will die should he disobey or go astray of his will, but will live indefinitely otherwise, wouldn't you keep obeying the King's will? The scenario may be similar with the Avatars. The Gods may no longer exist in the sense we are familiar with, i.e. inhabiting a body. Whatever the case, we just don't know. If anything though, given a few centuries, regardless of the little festivities, the humans may become like most of the Deldrimor Dwarves, not really believing in the Great Dwarf, until something comes up related to him.

Not precisely saying it, but it does suggest it, depending on how you read it.

Key word there.

Pretty sure it's clear he's a God. Not a demiGod, not a semiGod, just a full-on God. Besides that, I'm not splitting hairs in the same manner as you were, in regards to terminology, instead just doing so in regards to certain aspects that we have some degree of evidence about, which we were both doing. Such as the semi-omniscience of the Gods.

Besides that, I'm not concerned with being right, just with proposing a variety of possibilities that should not be ignored in favor of another idea due to supposed lack of evidence. (And no, this does not mean I'm giving leeway to Arachnia, as every shred of evidence is found in the .dat. And due to the nature of the landmarks associated with it, it is still unclear in comparison to the descriptions regarding several other landmarks, which are blatantly obvious.)

You have it backwards. The reclaiming of the aspect produces the effect of death, thus it does have an influence over the being.

This may be the case, but one cannot deny that the Old Gods show more of themselves than the Great Dwarf.

I wasn't saying it, I wasn't implying that, I was keeping open the possibility that the Great Dwarf was not a god.

"Not precisely saying it, but it does suggest it, depending on how you read it."

And the only thing we have saying this? Dwarves. They are biased. Do we know they are right? Was the Great Dwarf a god? Or was he a demi-god? Perhaps just the first of the Dwarves who (in a similar idea of Adam and other Abrahamic religious figures or ancient times) lived for thousands of years longer than the average dwarven lifespan. We don't really know.

I'm not concerned with being right either. I just prefer introducing new ideas. Which is why I do my best to keep other ideas out and occasionally pull the "devil's advocate" in debates. (And the Arachnia landmarks are all rather obvious compared to the Realm of Torment landmarks, and not everything on Arachnia is from the .dat, though those not only indirectly links to it)

Or it could be killing in order to reclaim it... do we see which would be the case? I don't recall so. I personally think it is killing in order to reclaim it.


But you know, we're going way off topic in most of this, little Leon.

Not precisely themselves, but yes.

Despite it having no real support other than lack of avatars or intervention.

And the only people we have saying the Gods are Gods are the humans and the Forgotten. Do we know they are right? Are they Gods or merely powerful mortals? Really, I think the Charr have the right idea of them. Nothing to be worshiped, only to be fought and if possible destroyed. Albeit not so much the last portion.

Besides that..How do we even define a demiGod in Tyria? We've never actually encountered such a being. Whatever the case, we don't really know about any of the Gods, and if anything, they're more like demiGods than anything else.

You're kidding, right? Atrocity Library, Malafarium, Screaming Spans, City of Ar'Challah, Shattered Guild Hall, Soulweir, Temple of the Six Gods, all of those are far more obvious than the supposed Arachnia ones.

By restoring itself, it seems to suggest to me it literally divided itself up into a state of non-being, and at least after its initial reclamation, that returned its mind and body, it killed the host. Later, it would be the case you suggest.

That's the nature of any discussion.

Although that reminds me of another example where dropping an item substitutes for using it - the jars of healing salve in Egil's Perch. Now, while they COULD be magic salve that's used by literally smashing the pot on the ground, it's possibly more likely that it's used more actively.

And those in Grenth's and Balthazar's Realms, which includes a Centaur. There is also statues and murals in locations which predate humanity. Naga also show a little sign of worshiping at least Dwayna, and then there are the Harpies - if the legend can be taken as truth. And lets not forget that even the Asura admit there is something more to them than simply "very powerful mortals." Also, the gods do not seem to be subject to age (Abaddon is our support for that), so not really mortals anyways. Much more than what we have for the Great Dwarf.

Well now you're comparing the Tyrian Gods to something like the Abrahamic God. If we compare them to any polytheistic religion's gods, they are on par (excluding Japanese gods which are more like very powerful spirits and not really gods). A Demi-God, in terms of most polytheistic religions, would be those who have god-like power, but have some humanistic trait to him/her/it. For instance, Heracles (or Hercules for the roman name) was a demi-god - strongest being there was, and never could lose in mundane things, only by magic did he lose (and die), he also was subject to age. Or lets take a "lesser deity" from Greek Mythology, say, a Dryad - eternal life, but not even close to as powerful as Demeter (and their "realm of power" was the same), their difference in strength (depending on which Dryad) were as far as the Sun and other stars - but they were all (except in some rare cases, I assume) stronger than humans. Another example of a "demi-god."

In other words, a demi-god would be a being stronger than mortals, but not as strong as any of the gods. Or another way to word it, would be a "god" with mortal characteristics which prevent them from being a real god.

Shattered Guild Hall, Temple of the Six Gods, and River of Souls are not from the gw.dat, and they are the most obvious. Why? Because they are player found, not from the .dat (two of which are given names in game, however - Shattered Guild Hall isn't even an official name!)... And the Arachnia Plateau, Harvestman's Lair, and Vale of Shadows are very damned obvious, only Arachnia related landmark which isn't sure is the Spider's Heart.

That made no sense to me...

I would think, at least those, (not sure for the other containers we can see every here and there, such as in the raptor cave) would be the use of any kind of salve. You take some and rub it on you to heal it.

Nitpick! There are plenty of stars that are brighter than the Sun... they just appear less bright because the Sun is a heck of a lot closer. Dryads would be more of the reverse situation - they actually ARE weaker, but when encountered they're also a lot closer.

A better analogy might be comparing the Sun to the Moon or one of the planets - even the 'reflected light' analogy might hold up when you consider that many of these spirits were servants of the god that controlled their domain.

Uhh... I mean the distance between the sun and other stars, not the difference in size/brightness.... And as for Dryads being weaker than humans, in physical strength yes, but overall they are still closer to gods than humans.

The Asura admit there is something more after their research by nearly saying that the Gods are nothing more than the forces of nature, as I took it.

They exist, and yet do not exist, in a way.

On par in the sense that they're just showoffs waiting to be usurped by a clever heretic. The irony of the Greek pantheon is that Zeus, while considered a God, could also have been deemed a heretic, as he defied his father, Kronos, who also would have been a heretic to his father before him. If all of the pantheon were worshiped at one time, then at some point the head Gods were heretics at some point.

Either way, at least the Gods aren't all related, else we probably would have a mess of demigods. (The capital g there was just bugging me.)

I am quite certain the Shattered Guild Hall may be a real name, as I am also rather certain it was extracted from the .dat. Also, Arachnia Plateau isn't obvious, the ground one walks on looks no different from any other ground in the Realm of Torment, if I am not mistaken. The only real suggestion of it being a spider's underbelly are the Torment Claws along the sides, appearing similar to spider legs. Harvestman's Lair is the only very obvious one, that is true. Vale of Shadows is not obvious, nor is the area it is speculated to be accurate, as the description says a wide, broad plain. It is far from being wide, despite having shadows that come close to the description.

Think of the first human host as a hard drive, alright? You dissipate yourself and download your body characteristics, memory, and personality into the host. Whenever you wish to come back, finding the situation safe, or favorable for reclaiming the other parts of yourself, you upload yourself back into the world, formatting the hard drive, or host, in the process. If it isn't obvious, that's a nicer way of saying killing the host.

Once that is done, you find your other hard drives, and download the information you stored in them back to yourself, formatting them in the process. That's how I see it, perhaps that will help your understanding of what I am attempting to say.

If one considers Zeus a heretic, then one would consider most polytheistic gods heretics. There are many ancient faiths (Greek and Norse are easiest to say, even the GW gods fit this) either have wars between gods, or have a god killing a god. Zeus and his brothers and sisters vs Kronos and the Titans is just one generation of gods replacing an older generation of gods (which is very possibly similar to the Tyrian gods except the Greek gods were all at once).

Technically, even "Gods" shouldn't have a capital g. "God" is only capital because it's regarded as the name of the Abrahamic god.

Shattered Guild Hall is a player made name (you even took place in the discussion for the name and what it was!). And it wasn't from the gw.dat. And I wouldn't call those large Torment Claws either, they are much different from the Torment Claws if you really look at them. And the land makes the shape of a spider's underbelly as well - though yes, the ground does look like ground (except when you walk on the two spider legs). As for the Vale of Shadows, it rather is wide and/or broad if you go there, a plain would be questionable, though. And the rest of the discussion fits more than perfectly.

I meant weaker to be relative to the gods, not humans.

Then how would that be the reverse situation as that is what I said...

Because stars aren't actually weaker than the Sun (many of those that are visible to the naked eye are bigger and hotter, although there are many more that aren't), they just appear to be so because they're further away.

Between semi-divine entities in Greek mythology such as nymphs and monsters versus the actual Gods, however, the nymph or monster, to the average mortal that encounters them, is powerful enough. A god may be more powerful, but to the mortal that's face-to-face with the Chimera, the Chimera is certainly dangerous enough. So, in the star/sun analogy, it's the semidivine entity (the nymph or monster) that the mortal encounters that takes the role of the Sun, while one of the gods would be like Rigel - more powerful, but much further away and thus less important to the mortal's viewpoint.

I did say it was a nitpick. For cases where the god is still more immediately powerful despite the distance, you could use the Sun as the deity and the moon or inner planets as the semidivine entity (or entities), but it falls down when you bring the stars into it.

Let me put it like this: The difference between power of demi-god and god is the same as the distance between the sun and other stars. You clearly never understood my analogy.

I never meant the brightness of the stars. I meant the huge distance (when comparing say, planets to each other) is like the huge difference between gods and demi-gods.

Let me use another analogy: The difference between in power of the gods and demi-gods are like the difference in firepower between a pistol and a tank. That work?

Works as an analogy (once you get past the nitpick that the tank itself isn't a firearm, and that a pistol may well be more dangerous than an unarmed tank).

In that form of the analogy, though, I can't say I agree. I tend to think of things as being more of a continuum than an order-of-magnitude increase between "god" and "something less than a god".