SF Argument

i am glad they did not nerf SF. hopefully, they realize that the people who scream the loudest are just a minor few (even though I am sure those who think otherwise will state...otherwise).

kudos to anet for an awesome update. rangers and sins got love, and in the next update hopefully mesmers and monks will be in the september update.

Quote: Originally Posted by Star Gazer

i am glad they did not nerf SF. hopefully, they realize that the people who scream the loudest are just a minor few (even though I am sure those who think otherwise will state...otherwise). No you're right, the people who know more about the game are in the minority ; p

Joking aside, it's not that people are screaming and yelling, but why and what they're screaming.

People adamant about SF because it helps them to get easier high-end items? Not so healthy.
People angry about SF because it helps "nubs get the lootz"? Also not a healthy crowd.
People concerned with SF because it's yet another thing going against the general design of the game? That's a bit better.

The entire SF argument is basically the Ursan one all over again.

We all know how that ended.

Quote: Originally Posted by Bryant Again No you're right, the people who know more about the game are in the minority ; p h4r h4r h4r. <3

Quote: People adamant about SF because it helps them to get easier high-end items? Not so healthy. understandable...but at 4 1/2 years in...is it really a problem if people get high end stuff? by now, everyone has everything. there is nothing out there that sparks the "wow" in people like it once did prior to factions. at this point, everyone has been everywhere, seen everything, and (hopefully) has gotten a few rare items. the novelty of these items are gone, so it should not be a problem anymore.

Quote: Originally Posted by [DE]

The entire SF argument is basically the Ursan one all over again.

We all know how that ended. Yeah, with us being right.

Quote: Originally Posted by Star Gazer understanbable...but at 4 1/2 years in...is it really a problem if people get high end stuff? by now, everyone has everything. there is nothing out there that sparks the "wow" in people like it once did prior to factions. at this point, everyone has been everywhere, seen everything, and (hopefully) has gotten a few rare items. the novelty of these items are gone, so it should not be a problem anymore. Just because a lot more people have such items doesn't give good excuse to make the trek to get them easier to acquire. It just means that more people have gone through the effort to get them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer the thing is...people do not want (nor have) the HOURS upon HOURS to go into uw or fow and clear it out. granted, players like you and I could probably go in there and blow the place apart...but those who are new or do not have the time should not be denied entrance upon such places. That's what Normal mode should be for. If you're an inexperienced player, then you should be in the areas catered to such.

Quote: That's what Normal mode should be for. If you're an inexperienced player, then you should be in the areas catered to such. Thank. You.

I don't understand why people buy a game and think they're entitled to do any single area of the game in 30 minutes without any challenge because they don't have enough time to complete the area, or have the skill required to.

Tip: If you don't have the time for it, do something else in Guild Wars. If you never have the time for it, then maybe Guild Wars (and other online RPG's) aren't the games for you.

Sorry, but it had to be said.

People don't realize that EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME CAN BE DONE. You don't need Shadowform, you don't need any gimmicky crap. You might require *shock horror* human players, but other than that you can do anything you really feel like doing. It's the same stupid argument over and over again for SF. IF IT GETS NERFED, WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING IN THIS GAME. Come on -_-;

Quote: Originally Posted by Chocobo1

People don't realize that EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME CAN BE DONE. You don't need Shadowform, you don't need any gimmicky crap. You might require *shock horror* human players, but other than that you can do anything you really feel like doing. It's the same stupid argument over and over again for SF. IF IT GETS NERFED, WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING IN THIS GAME. Come on -_-; If SF was nerfed you would not be albe to clear UW in <30minutes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Chocobo1

People don't realize that EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME CAN BE DONE. You don't need Shadowform, you don't need any gimmicky crap. You might require *shock horror* human players, but other than that you can do anything you really feel like doing. It's the same stupid argument over and over again for SF. IF IT GETS NERFED, WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING IN THIS GAME. Come on -_-; That's a strawman argument. Proponents of SF don't think things can't be done without it. They say that stuff can't be done in the same amount of time without it, which is truth. If it takes 4 hours to do something without SF, and an hour to do it with SF, which would the CASUAL PLAYER rather do? Either they do it with SF, or they do something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. SF opens doors to CASUAL PLAYERS to complete certain areas. Some elitists say that if someone doesn't have the time to spend in these areas, they shouldn't be playing the game. BS. This game is for casual players, period. If you want your high end areas to be special to those who have hours per day to complete them, go play WoW. Saying you don't want high end areas to be easily completed for no reason other than exclusivity is just idiotic.

If someone plays once a week and just wants something special such as an Obsidian Edge, even a R13 will be too expensive because frankly he doesn't have the time to farm for it. If he can jump into 2 or 3 FoW speed clears and get lucky, good for him.

Sure, it opens doors for abuse by hardcore players, but overfarming helps the casual player even more by bringing prices down to a reasonable level.

Guild Wars is hardly for casual players but now this thread is just ridiculously off-topic.

Quote: Originally Posted by Star Gazer

the thing is...people do not want (nor have) the HOURS upon HOURS to go into uw or fow and clear it out. Clearly this is not the game genre for them in the first place.

Also if they really wanted to they would realize they do have the time.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0 That's a strawman argument. Proponents of SF don't think things can't be done without it. They say that stuff can't be done in the same amount of time without it, which is truth. If it takes 4 hours to do something without SF, and an hour to do it with SF, which would the CASUAL PLAYER rather do? Either they do it with SF, or they do something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. SF opens doors to CASUAL PLAYERS to complete certain areas. Some elitists say that if someone doesn't have the time to spend in these areas, they shouldn't be playing the game. BS. This game is for casual players, period. If you want your high end areas to be special to those who have hours per day to complete them, go play WoW. Saying you don't want high end areas to be easily completed for no reason other than exclusivity is just idiotic.
It doesn't take 4 hours to complete any area in the game, unless you're bad. If you're bad, you shouldn't be doing high-end elite areas. There are plenty of things in this game to do that casual players can complete. Just because you buy a game doesn't entitle you to be able to complete every single area in under 40 minutes. The game is directed at casual players, yes. That, yet again, doesn't mean everyone is entitled to completing every area of the game in under 40 minutes. High-end eltie areas shouldn't be able to be completed in under 30 minutes isn't idiotic, it's logic. It makes no sense that these 'hard' areas are completed so easy and fast.

You know, there's a way to meet in the middle. These areas shouldn't take hours and hours to complete, but they shouldn't be able to be completed super fast, either. A high-end elite area should require some time and some sort of skill to accomplish. 3 hours is absurd for a game like Guild Wars, but so is 20 minutes. They should be designed so that a casual, decent player can complete it in 1:15. If you don't have an hour and 15 minutes, then do something else. Call me an elitist all you want, it's cool.

Quote: Originally Posted by Arkantos It doesn't take 4 hours to complete any area in the game, unless you're bad. If you're bad, you shouldn't be doing high-end elite areas. Typical elitist attitude backed by the desire for exclusivity. Who are you to say what people can and cannot do in a game, especially when what they do doesn't affect you in any way?

Another side to the argument is the fact that running these gimmick builds is NOT A GUARANTEE FOR SUCCESS. I've seen PLENTY of experienced players fail these gimmick builds repeatedly due to a multitude of factors, mainly user error, misclicking, lag, and SHOCK AND AWE random enemy spawns that ruin the gimmick builds.

And yes, it does take people 3-4 hours of casual play to clear high end areas such as UW and DoA, pretty much due to the overwhelming amount of unfairness present in enemy spawns and skill bars, mission layouts, and environmental effects. This is unwelcoming to any casual player, as it doesn't matter how good of a player you are with your 8 skills, you need to know the AREA FIRST to succeed. Casual players are not going to get to know these areas if they don't play them.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Typical elitist attitude backed by the desire for exclusivity. Who are you to say what people can and cannot do in a game, especially when what they do doesn't affect you in any way? I'm someone who uses logic and common sense. Who are you to say that the areas that were implemented which were supposed to be a challenge should be able to be completed fast with no challenge at all? ArenaNet have stated that they're watching the speed clearing of most difficult areas, and will make adjustments. If they nerf speed clears, are you going to reply with 'Typical elitist attitude'? It seems that you love throwing that around whenever someone disagrees with speed clears.

Typical update day. Typical elitists whine about the game not being hand crafted just for them. Whether you like it or not some improvements were brought to the game today.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Typical elitist attitude backed by the desire for exclusivity. Who are you to say what people can and cannot do in a game, especially when what they do doesn't affect you in any way? Dearest knight of GW justice, defender of the casual player, and stalwart ally of Shadow Form. I would just like to inform you that the "elitist" argument has been beaten into the ground so much it's nothing more than hilarious.

You clearly have a problem with people who want to get rid of speed clears and other nonsense which has effectively brought this game to a level even half-wit simpletons can play. This demands inspection. Do you defend this garbage because you yourself are incapable of playing this game otherwise? The casual player argument is just worthless. What you fail to realize is the casual players are the people who log on and play the game to enjoy the storyline, the visuals, and to just have fun. They do not care about SF, and probably don't even know you can farm with it, or just don't care.

Oh and pertaining to your comment about him caring about what people do and it not effecting him, your wrong. SF has effected EVERYONE in this game. If you can't come to this realization you have some problems to work out.

Quote: Originally Posted by Arkantos

I'm someone who uses logic and common sense. Who are you to say that the areas that were implemented which were supposed to be a challenge should be able to be completed fast with no challenge at all? ArenaNet have stated that they're watching the speed clearing of most difficult areas, and will make adjustments. If they nerf speed clears, are you going to reply with 'Typical elitist attitude'? It seems that you love throwing that around whenever someone disagrees with speed clears. Strawman argument. You're assuming I don't use logic or common sense. What you're using is an opinion that these high end areas should be exclusive to those who have the time to A: complete the area in the first place or B: Learn to do the area in order to complete it in a faster time than in question.

Fine, do away with the "speed clear", but do it for a reason other than "we don't want just any tom, dick and harry completing these areas". Why have them in the game if you don't want people to play them? I'll name a few areas that were dead to all but farmers before the advent of these "speed clears":

Underworld
Fissure of Woe
Deep
Urgoz's Warren
Domain of Anguish
90% of the dungeons in EOTN in Hard Mode.

If you remove speed clears, I guarantee you that the areas will be DEAD to anyone who isn't just farming specific areas. And if you eliminate those "gimmick builds", the areas will be dead completely except those lucky enough to be in an "elite alliance" that completes stuff with OTHER GIMMICK BUILDS. Hell, your precious TAM Physicalway is a gimmick build relying on consumables and PvE skills...otherwise it would fail more often than not and take hours to complete areas as well. And if someone wants to join any of these guilds/alliances, they're SOL because they don't have experience other than using gimmick builds. That removes any chance of them LEARNING THE AREAS and getting experience. Define elitism. Anyone who wants the above results fits the bill.

Quote: Originally Posted by Professor K

Quote: Originally Posted by Arkantos