I'm extremely angry and pissed off due to the nerf of Finale of Restoration, because this has made the whole motivation skill line completely useless.
All of the chants of the paragon are currently underpowered and nerfed to hell as is due to their extreme recharges of 20 seconds (used to be 10, before they got nerfed into the ground), which already limited the effectiveness of Finale of Restoration. Their healing over time completely sucks, but thanks to combining it with Finale of Restoration they used to be somewhat on par with other classes.
Now the support healing paragon is completely dead and the motivation line completely useless, nerfing Finale of Restoration was the final nail in the coffin.
Consider a build like this:
[Song of Restoration]
[Ballad of Restoration]
[Aria of Zeal]
[Anthem of Flame]
[Energizing Chorus] or [Watch Yourself!]
[Mending Refrain]
[Energizing Finale]
[Finale of Restoration]
With Finale of Restoration this build was a viable alternative for a monk or rit healer. All the healing skills have a 20 second recharge, but thanks to Finale of Restoration, the paragon could at least get a few heals in through Energizing Chorus, Watch Yourself or even Anthem of Flame (Skills which are only on the bar because they don't suffer from 20 sec recharges that make them totally useless).
Mending refrain already got nerfed, as do all other skills on the list. But the sole redeeming factor was Finale of Restoration. Now that it is gone too, the healing role of Paragons in PVE is completely dead. I must admit I deleted my paragon after the first round of Motivation nerfs (using everything on my bar, then doing nothing for 15 seconds until they recharge isn't my idea of fun), and that I didn't bring Hayda and General Morgan very often, but they did have their uses and I did take them out when I didn't want to play with overpowered N/Rit healer NPCs. Now they'll never see another adventure, in their current sorry state.
Not warranting a seperate PVE version? Arenanet must be out of their mind.
Finale of Restoration nerf killed Motivation line and healing role. Need PVE version!
Shakkara
Ratson Itamar
I agree with you completely. I lold when I read "Again, we did not think these changes merited splitting these skills into separate PvP and PvE versions".
What's more confusing is that they're doing it right after they tried to buff paragons in PvE...If you needed a proof for Anet absolute stupidity, well you've just got it.
I'm honestly considering deleting my para, it's way too boring being an Imbagon anymore.
What's more confusing is that they're doing it right after they tried to buff paragons in PvE...If you needed a proof for Anet absolute stupidity, well you've just got it.
I'm honestly considering deleting my para, it's way too boring being an Imbagon anymore.
Eduhard
Agree 100% with you, they totally kicked paragons from the game long time ago..
Gonzo_Neo
Agree
Its long time ago that the Paragons users felt that Motivation in PVE is dead because continus nerfing, and need a serius update, Monks are beeter healing than us by far, and with the new buff of ritues same...... ¿ why use a Moti Paragon in PVE ? When they update Paragon two months ago i was hope of a update motivation like all paragon users want , but no, they update command. And now, this month the nerf the last used skill of motivation for PVE because the PVP ( bye bye split PVE and PVP skills ).
Its long time ago that the Paragons users felt that Motivation in PVE is dead because continus nerfing, and need a serius update, Monks are beeter healing than us by far, and with the new buff of ritues same...... ¿ why use a Moti Paragon in PVE ? When they update Paragon two months ago i was hope of a update motivation like all paragon users want , but no, they update command. And now, this month the nerf the last used skill of motivation for PVE because the PVP ( bye bye split PVE and PVP skills ).
Racthoh
Paragons were never meant to fill a healing position, merely support it. Dedicating a Paragon's bar entirely to one task is wasted potential as they are an extremely effective multi-purpose profession.
Simath
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkara
With Finale of Restoration this build was a viable alternative for a monk or rit healer.
Sorry, you're wrong. Those heals you mentioned would have been unreliable and sub par. Never could that have been a viable option for a monk. Unless you planned on wiping a third of the way into an area.
FoxBat
Yeah, I'm only pissed because this completely killed the paragon backline teams which were fun to play every now and then. RIP Dongway.
Gennadios
The only motivation skill that spent any time on my skill bar over the past few months was energizing chorus. And that was after I bought a separate set of armor to mod as a motigon and decided to challenge myself to playing backline. Well... I ended up with a very good build that relied heavily on EC for energy management while all of the worthwhile skills came from the leadership tree or were PvE only.
Sad.
If any of the support skills are to be worth jack, they need to go the way of Can't Touch This! and (ironically) Finale of Restoration and provide their benefit more than once.
Sad.
If any of the support skills are to be worth jack, they need to go the way of Can't Touch This! and (ironically) Finale of Restoration and provide their benefit more than once.
Lishy
I think motivation as a whole needs to be reworked.
They're supposed to only "support" with healing, but the skills are just not good enough to waste investment or skill slots.
What motigons need is more roles to preform. They would make great batteries if they simply buff TPIY, for one, as well as Song of Power.
Song of Power would make an amazing skill if they reworked it. But using 25 energy just for it to end whenever a skill is used is downright useless since in combat, when you need it, you're constantly using skills and it is redundant.
As it currently stands though, they're nice to have in condition heavy areas. So what they also need is more hex removal.
For skills like zealous anthem, they could probably implement a "zealous" type party-wide effect. Make it give 1-energy whenever someone hits in melee or casts a spell for a reasonable X amount of time. Perhaps make it adrenaline based so people can upkeep it for that little energy boost.
Inspirational speech could be great if it simply had a lower recharge and didn't have the downfall of losing all of your adrenaline.
Leader's Zeal is not bad per se, but it just doesn't have place on a para bar and is a really selfish skill for a paragon. Give it a total functionality change. Maybe something to increase party dmg?
They're supposed to only "support" with healing, but the skills are just not good enough to waste investment or skill slots.
What motigons need is more roles to preform. They would make great batteries if they simply buff TPIY, for one, as well as Song of Power.
Song of Power would make an amazing skill if they reworked it. But using 25 energy just for it to end whenever a skill is used is downright useless since in combat, when you need it, you're constantly using skills and it is redundant.
As it currently stands though, they're nice to have in condition heavy areas. So what they also need is more hex removal.
For skills like zealous anthem, they could probably implement a "zealous" type party-wide effect. Make it give 1-energy whenever someone hits in melee or casts a spell for a reasonable X amount of time. Perhaps make it adrenaline based so people can upkeep it for that little energy boost.
Inspirational speech could be great if it simply had a lower recharge and didn't have the downfall of losing all of your adrenaline.
Leader's Zeal is not bad per se, but it just doesn't have place on a para bar and is a really selfish skill for a paragon. Give it a total functionality change. Maybe something to increase party dmg?
ShadowbaneX
I wonder if you could merge Motivation and Tactics together would you actually get anything useful out of it, or would it just be the most useless attribute in the entire game.
Lishy
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
I wonder if you could merge Motivation and Tactics together would you actually get anything useful out of it, or would it just be the most useless attribute in the entire game.
Tactics was a paragon attr prior to SY 
Yeah. I miss that line. And they need to revert moti for PvE to the NF-start.
Yeah. I miss that line. And they need to revert moti for PvE to the NF-start.
Racthoh
Motivation is heal x if y, restore x energy if y, or remove x conditions if y. There is one or two exceptions, Inspirational Speech but that's just trash anyhow. Granted you could probably apply a similar blanket statement to other attributes but Motivation is simply boring and doesn't promote any sort of skillful skill use to take advantage of the conditionals.
Think about Healing Prayers line, despite all of the skills essentially functioning the same heal x if y there are many cases where that y encourages some thought. Word of Healing requires the target below 50% health, Dwayna's Kiss becoming stronger against hexes or a heavily enchanted target. Taking advantage of such conditionals lies solely in the hands of the user, not the receiver like the Motivation line. Basically every Motivation skill relies on the target simply going about their business, in some cases nothing at all, or simply allowing skills to fall off.
Skills like the finales are bad design as are most Motivation skills as they promote senseless button mashing hit-me-on-recharge tactics. There's nothing interesting there. The only burden on the Paragon lies in fitting as many allies within earshot as possible.
However I don't think it's possible to give Paragon skills conditionals where the burden is in the hands of the user. The nature of the line just doesn't allow it. The only idea that springs to mind is dealing with the hard numbers associated with each. Changing a skill like Aria of Zeal to refund a % of the energy used in the next spell makes it more interesting. Aria of Restoration could heal for an amount equal to x times the energy cost. Such changes would promote more communication as the party tries to benefit as best they can, rather than simply meeting the conditional in full for something you were already doing.
Think about Healing Prayers line, despite all of the skills essentially functioning the same heal x if y there are many cases where that y encourages some thought. Word of Healing requires the target below 50% health, Dwayna's Kiss becoming stronger against hexes or a heavily enchanted target. Taking advantage of such conditionals lies solely in the hands of the user, not the receiver like the Motivation line. Basically every Motivation skill relies on the target simply going about their business, in some cases nothing at all, or simply allowing skills to fall off.
Skills like the finales are bad design as are most Motivation skills as they promote senseless button mashing hit-me-on-recharge tactics. There's nothing interesting there. The only burden on the Paragon lies in fitting as many allies within earshot as possible.
However I don't think it's possible to give Paragon skills conditionals where the burden is in the hands of the user. The nature of the line just doesn't allow it. The only idea that springs to mind is dealing with the hard numbers associated with each. Changing a skill like Aria of Zeal to refund a % of the energy used in the next spell makes it more interesting. Aria of Restoration could heal for an amount equal to x times the energy cost. Such changes would promote more communication as the party tries to benefit as best they can, rather than simply meeting the conditional in full for something you were already doing.
Reverend Dr
Dongway Backline still works. Easy for squishies to slot soldier's defense, best with mostly physical teams. Mostly just having to cover up the loss of healing from finale with an extra SoR, and there is still plenty of room to play around with; most obviously including pve skills.
well RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, gwbbcode.
well RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, gwbbcode.
De Maximoff
I agree with Shakkara Anet must be out of their minds to not split this for PVE and PVP. Anet stated why the skill was changed and yet AGAIN a PVE skill is changed because of the way it is used in PVP. I am not a PVP player and I am really tired of PVE skills being dictated by PVP usage or over usage. Having used the DOA Mallyx Hero Build yesterday I can tell you the change does make a difference. I believe Anet does not truly consider how PVE is affected when they change skills like this, they are more concerned with PVP and the facts back that up.
'We did not think these changes merited splitting these skills into separate PvP and PvE versions.' The absurdity of that statement is only matched by its stupidity.
'We did not think these changes merited splitting these skills into separate PvP and PvE versions.' The absurdity of that statement is only matched by its stupidity.
Shasgaliel
Motivation does not solely depend on this one skill. I think it is only a specific build which has been nerfed. I use motivation paragon all the time and I was unaffected by the nerf at all. I am quite surprised by some of the comments as if there was only one skill in motivation and motivation was the only attribute for paragon. I agree that the nerf was unnecessary for PVE and should be indeed reversed. But this is not the end of the world.
De Maximoff
Shakkara you hit the nail on the head again, the recharge is absurd. While waiting for the skills to recharge the team is taking damage. And I agree Anet seems addicted to their cookie cutter builds. Try being a Paragon and not Imbagon, good luck getting into a group. If you don't have the cookie cutter build it will be very difficult.
The Paragon Hero builds for Mallyx showed that a Paragon did not have to be Imbagon to be highly effective. Anet admited that the skill was being abused in PVP, there was NO mention of abuse in PVE so why did they change it for PVE???
I said it before and I'll say it again. 'We did not think these changes merited splitting these skills into separate PvP and PvE versions.' The absurdity of that statement is only matched by its stupidity.
The Paragon Hero builds for Mallyx showed that a Paragon did not have to be Imbagon to be highly effective. Anet admited that the skill was being abused in PVP, there was NO mention of abuse in PVE so why did they change it for PVE???
I said it before and I'll say it again. 'We did not think these changes merited splitting these skills into separate PvP and PvE versions.' The absurdity of that statement is only matched by its stupidity.
Reverend Dr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkara
this skill is essential to have healing functionality,
That is what we first thought. Yes before the nerf it was extremely powerful, most likely too powerful, but it never was the single skill around which the build was based.
We too thought this was going to be the death of our paragon backline. While it does indeed have an impact, the sky is not falling chicken little.
Okay the gwcode doesn't work anymore, look here http://gwshack.us/e7755. This works as a backline. It works in PvP, it has worked in UW on hard mode. It works without any of the PvP split or PvP-only skills. It has plenty of room for modification, we keep it modded for physical heavy. We don't really care about PvE so we've never really bothered to mod it for PvE.
We too thought this was going to be the death of our paragon backline. While it does indeed have an impact, the sky is not falling chicken little.
Okay the gwcode doesn't work anymore, look here http://gwshack.us/e7755. This works as a backline. It works in PvP, it has worked in UW on hard mode. It works without any of the PvP split or PvP-only skills. It has plenty of room for modification, we keep it modded for physical heavy. We don't really care about PvE so we've never really bothered to mod it for PvE.
Shakkara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
That is what we first thought. Yes before the nerf it was extremely powerful, most likely too powerful, but it never was the single skill around which the build was based.
We too thought this was going to be the death of our paragon backline. While it does indeed have an impact, the sky is not falling chicken little.
Okay the gwcode doesn't work anymore, look here http://gwshack.us/e7755. This works as a backline. It works in PvP, it has worked in UW on hard mode. It works without any of the PvP split or PvP-only skills. It has plenty of room for modification, we keep it modded for physical heavy. We don't really care about PvE so we've never really bothered to mod it for PvE. Those builds totally won't work on heroes in PVE, as one can only have 2 paragon heroes.
Your healing comes for a large part of chorus of restoration which doesn't work on non-paragon/warrior allies.
I couldn't care less about PVP, all I want is a PVE version for Finale of Restoration, which ArenaNet claims isn't needed. Well it is needed, try play a motivation based paragon in PVE now, there is no way to make a valid motivation build for heroes. Same with a main paragon, there is a reason the only paragon build on PVX wiki is the imbagon build, which is based heavily on just PVE-only skills.
We too thought this was going to be the death of our paragon backline. While it does indeed have an impact, the sky is not falling chicken little.
Okay the gwcode doesn't work anymore, look here http://gwshack.us/e7755. This works as a backline. It works in PvP, it has worked in UW on hard mode. It works without any of the PvP split or PvP-only skills. It has plenty of room for modification, we keep it modded for physical heavy. We don't really care about PvE so we've never really bothered to mod it for PvE. Those builds totally won't work on heroes in PVE, as one can only have 2 paragon heroes.
Your healing comes for a large part of chorus of restoration which doesn't work on non-paragon/warrior allies.
I couldn't care less about PVP, all I want is a PVE version for Finale of Restoration, which ArenaNet claims isn't needed. Well it is needed, try play a motivation based paragon in PVE now, there is no way to make a valid motivation build for heroes. Same with a main paragon, there is a reason the only paragon build on PVX wiki is the imbagon build, which is based heavily on just PVE-only skills.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkara
Looking back on the updates shows the same thing:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20070119
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20070201
In fact Ballad of Restoration was initially buffed to a 15 second recharge.
Shakkara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Looking back on the updates shows the same thing:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20070119
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20070201
In fact Ballad of Restoration was initially buffed to a 15 second recharge. Song of Restoration always had 15 seconds.
Anet nerfed it to 20 seconds, then 30 seconds (which it still is for PVP) but reduced the PVE version back to 15.
It also used to cost 5 energy instead of 10 and used to heal a bit more.
If we compare it to Light of Deliverance and Heal Party, it's clear that the recharge of these skills are too long.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkara
Anet nerfed it to 20 seconds, then 30 seconds (which it still is for PVP) but reduced the PVE version back to 15.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shakkara
It also used to cost 5 energy instead of 10 and used to heal a bit more.
If we compare it to Light of Deliverance and Heal Party, it's clear that the recharge of these skills are too long. You can't compare the way skills work like that, not in Guild Wars.
Shakkara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
|
Quote: Originally Posted by Racthoh
You can't compare the way skills work like that, not in Guild Wars.
That doesn't change the fact that the entire motivation line is now totally unplayable in PVE and the only remaining build is the cookie cutter imbagon. Which doesn't work on heroes.Quote: Originally Posted by Simath
You're forgetting HP and LoD are designed for a class who is built to heal and prot. You can't compare paragon heals with monk heals. There is no parallel that can be intelligently drawn. Paragons were not made nor designed with the intention for strong heals, rather they are a utility class used to buff your party defensively, offensively, or both.
And what role is there for the motivation line in all that? None left.The skills are quite useless by themselves, but thanks to Finale of Restoration, all shouts, no matter how crap, could double for healing, which removed the extremely situational nature of most paragon skills.
Take anthem of flame. I'm not using it for the burning, as my party doesn't have attack skills. I'm just using it because my hero gets 3 energy off it and it used to trigger a heal when it ended.
Chorus of restoration and energizing chorus are useless in my party too as there is often only one paragon hero. But hey, they don't have long recharges and they heal.
I mean, take a look at the whole motivation line...
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Motivation
Would you honestly use any of these skills if it's a balanced party?
Quote:
Then you were doing it wrong.This used to compete pretty well with monks or n/rt heroes and I used just these for healing in the realm of torment instead of monks (especially the final two missions in hardmode) due to their immunity to dazed and their natural high armor value which makes the NPCs leave them more or less alone.
[Song of Restoration]
[Ballad of Restoration]
[Aria of Zeal]
[Anthem of Flame]
[Energizing Chorus] or [Watch Yourself!]
[Mending Refrain]
[Energizing Finale]
[Finale of Restoration]
15 motivation
14 leadership
If hayda could be brought along she'd have a similar build with two other spam-chants such as GFTE and chorus of restoration, but in general, just morgahn was pretty effective by himself. I wouldn't know how to complete Grand Court of Sebelkeh HM at masters time without them.
AI of this build is just lovely, and better than any other healing hero I could think of.
Quote:
Stop exaggerating. Really it hurts your case. Any developers from Anet that are reading this thread see this type of exaggeration and immediately surmise that you do not understand the game and immediately dismiss the entire complaint.
Yes motivation healing got a bit of a nerf, if this was enough to turn your build into garbage, then the heart of the problem is in your build. It's not exaggeration, it's facts, but since you haven't played a motigon and immediately dismissed them as 'inefficient' while my experience with them has consistently proved the contrary.
The heart of the problem is not in the build, the problem is in the class, the motivation line, and now finale of restoration in particular.
I've had another go with Paragon heroes and came up with this build:
["They're on Fire!"]
[Burning Refrain]
[Blazing Finale]
[Bladeturn Refrain]
["Go for the Eyes!"]
[Energizing Chorus]
["Never Surrender!"]
[Wild Throw]
3 spear mastery
14 command
14 leadership
It doesn't really work well but it's the best thing on a para hero I've found so far. But noone in their right mind would sacrifice a hero slot just for a situational 33% damage reduction, 19% block, and spamming burning on enemies. Although Never Surrender is somewhat nice but its nowhere near the amount of damage prevention and healing that is required from a support char.
Yes motivation healing got a bit of a nerf, if this was enough to turn your build into garbage, then the heart of the problem is in your build. It's not exaggeration, it's facts, but since you haven't played a motigon and immediately dismissed them as 'inefficient' while my experience with them has consistently proved the contrary.
The heart of the problem is not in the build, the problem is in the class, the motivation line, and now finale of restoration in particular.
I've had another go with Paragon heroes and came up with this build:
["They're on Fire!"]
[Burning Refrain]
[Blazing Finale]
[Bladeturn Refrain]
["Go for the Eyes!"]
[Energizing Chorus]
["Never Surrender!"]
[Wild Throw]
3 spear mastery
14 command
14 leadership
It doesn't really work well but it's the best thing on a para hero I've found so far. But noone in their right mind would sacrifice a hero slot just for a situational 33% damage reduction, 19% block, and spamming burning on enemies. Although Never Surrender is somewhat nice but its nowhere near the amount of damage prevention and healing that is required from a support char.
Reverend Dr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkara
It's not exaggeration, it's facts, but since you haven't played a motigon and immediately dismissed them as 'inefficient' while my experience with them has consistently proved the contrary.
That is my point I have run motogons. I still run motogons. When I tell you that the unnerfed finale motogons were inferior to good players on backline, it is not mere theorycrafting. When I tell you that motogons haven't been OMGNERFEDTOWORTHLESS, it is not mere theorycrafting.
Motogons have tons of party heals but really lack any direct heal. That's why infuse health, even at no healing prayers it is still a large swing and the health loss from infuse is covered by the exorbitant party healing. The problems with what you have just posted is the lack of direct heal. Having a strong direct heal will keep spikish packets of damage from dropping your party. With the strong PvE-versions of Bladeturn refrain, stand your ground, and never surrender along with the motivation line, a paragon backline is still very much possible.
Motogons have tons of party heals but really lack any direct heal. That's why infuse health, even at no healing prayers it is still a large swing and the health loss from infuse is covered by the exorbitant party healing. The problems with what you have just posted is the lack of direct heal. Having a strong direct heal will keep spikish packets of damage from dropping your party. With the strong PvE-versions of Bladeturn refrain, stand your ground, and never surrender along with the motivation line, a paragon backline is still very much possible.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakkara
Quote: Originally Posted by Shakkara That doesn't change the fact that the entire motivation line is now totally unplayable in PVE and the only remaining build is the cookie cutter imbagon. Which doesn't work on heroes. Quote: Originally Posted by Shakkara
I mean, take a look at the whole motivation line...
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Motivation
Would you honestly use any of these skills if it's a balanced party? Lyric of Zeal, Song of Purification, Chorus of Restoration, Aria of Zeal. But I'd never think of running all four on one bar. Lyric of Zeal and Chorus of Restoration I would interchange depending on the party setup as a more physical based party can easily load a shout for the heal while a caster oriented makeup can use the energy gain from Lyric of Zeal. Song of Purification is the strongest condition removal skill in PvE, hands down. Aria of Zeal gives 5 energy, enough for a monk to fire off a 200+ point Word of Healing. The only reason I stopped using Mending Refrain was because I got annoyed with the 15 second echo timer; 48 health restored each second when spread to all eight party members is still very strong.
Alternatively I'd swap out Song of Purification for Defensive Anthem as the elite for areas without heavy degen/blind to support the backline. "The Power Is Yours!" used to be decent in PvE but now it's complete trash. "It's Just a Flesh Wound!" has always been inferior to Song of Purification, and always felt the 30 additional health that Song of Restoration restores over Ballad of Restoration just wasn't worth my elite slot. Not in PvE anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
"It's Just A Flesh Wound!" would take 32 energy to clear an entire party of conditions over 8 seconds while Song of Purification would take 5 attacks (fewer with Dark Fury or the like) at 1.125 attack speed each (assuming Aggressive Refrain) and 2 seconds to activate.
And so ? because we all know that ALL mobs in PvE spread at least 3 conditions on the WHOLE party ALWAYS right ? . Dont fake scenarios where SoP is better because i know where SoP or Cautery Sig is better.http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Motivation
Would you honestly use any of these skills if it's a balanced party? Lyric of Zeal, Song of Purification, Chorus of Restoration, Aria of Zeal. But I'd never think of running all four on one bar. Lyric of Zeal and Chorus of Restoration I would interchange depending on the party setup as a more physical based party can easily load a shout for the heal while a caster oriented makeup can use the energy gain from Lyric of Zeal. Song of Purification is the strongest condition removal skill in PvE, hands down. Aria of Zeal gives 5 energy, enough for a monk to fire off a 200+ point Word of Healing. The only reason I stopped using Mending Refrain was because I got annoyed with the 15 second echo timer; 48 health restored each second when spread to all eight party members is still very strong.
Alternatively I'd swap out Song of Purification for Defensive Anthem as the elite for areas without heavy degen/blind to support the backline. "The Power Is Yours!" used to be decent in PvE but now it's complete trash. "It's Just a Flesh Wound!" has always been inferior to Song of Purification, and always felt the 30 additional health that Song of Restoration restores over Ballad of Restoration just wasn't worth my elite slot. Not in PvE anyway.
Quote:
Healing is another stuff , there are plenty of things that can heal . SoP doesnt heal either and im not arguing against a prot RC , i quoted you for SoP remember ?. I dont find RC worth taking on a prot for HM . |
Originally Posted by Shakkara
This skill was the sole cornerstone of the PVE motivation based paragon, as it's the only skill that allows use of 'useless' situational skills for the purpose of healing.
Taking useless skills to power off a 70ish point heal is a waste of a skill slot, it's that simple. Even if none of those heals are being wasted as they trigger Finale of Restoration a competent monk would realize the target is under fire and utilize some form of prot to deal with the situation. There is a reason monks only take two or three heals and the rest prot as proactive defense is significantly stronger than reactive.
Trying to power half a paragon with useless skills does not sound like something I'd ever want in my group.
Tenebrae
That was a good explanation Racthoh but i think theres something you didnt test and its the Flesh Wound elite.
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Quote:
"It's Just a Flesh Wound!" has always been inferior to Song of Purification, and always felt the 30 additional health that Song of Restoration restores over Ballad of Restoration just wasn't worth my elite slot. Not in PvE anyway. Maybe at moti 12+ Song of Purification is better for being "within earshot" range but check IJAFW is a shout and has no activation , also benefits from leadership and target loses ALL conditions , not 1 , 2 or 3 and doesnt need to use a skill to remove ( H/H dont know that and wont use a skill on purpose to trigger SoP ). I have been testing cautery signet , IJAFW and SoP aaaaand i dont see that "hands down" clear , not at all . You should try it with some wide shouts to provide energy , that elite is a really good condt removal . Ofc depends on what you are expecting for mass dissease , D foes inflicting condt on area well , take SoP ; but if you try for mobs to inflict conditions on 1-2 chars .... i would take IJAFW instead SoP even on a non moti para.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae
Maybe at moti 12+ Song of Purification is better for being "within earshot" range but check IJAFW is a shout and has no activation , also benefits from leadership and target loses ALL conditions , not 1 , 2 or 3 and doesnt need to use a skill to remove ( H/H dont know that and wont use a skill on purpose to trigger SoP ). I have been testing cautery signet , IJAFW and SoP aaaaand i dont see that "hands down" clear , not at all . You should try it with some wide shouts to provide energy , that elite is a really good condt removal .
Ofc depends on what you are expecting for mass dissease , D foes inflicting condt on area well , take SoP ; but if you try for mobs to inflict conditions on 1-2 chars .... i would take IJAFW instead SoP even on a non moti para. This is why I don't care for "It's Just A Flesh Wound!", even though it's targeted more at why I don't use condition removal on my Monk it still addresses the matter. It's Restore Conditions without the heal, when the majority of conditions do damage that need healing. "It's Just A Flesh Wound!" would take 32 energy to clear an entire party of conditions over 8 seconds while Song of Purification would take 5 attacks (fewer with Dark Fury or the like) at 1.125 attack speed each (assuming Aggressive Refrain) and 2 seconds to activate. During this time it would restore energy to the Paragon as well. If a single target is being bombarded with conditions then either A) Restore Conditions is better since it heals or B) It's one target, I'll wait for them to drop below 50% and throw a 200+ point Word of Healing at them. The instant cast time is moot in PvE, especially given the recharge times of Song of Purification. There's nothing "It's Just A Flesh Wound!" does that Song of Purification can't do, but plenty Song of Purification can do that "It's Just A Flesh Wound!" can't.
Tenebrae
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Originally Posted by Racthoh
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And fyi ( once again ) SoP doesnt remove conditions , SoP removes conditions when skills used and as i told ya , H/H wont use skills to trigger SoP on purpose.
Assuming Aggresive Refrain and Dark Fury lets assume my P has GFTE and then IJAFW is an almost free condt removal.
Quote: Originally Posted by Racthoh
If a single target is being bombarded with conditions then either A) Restore Conditions is better since it heals or B) It's one target, I'll wait for them to drop below 50% and throw a 200+ point Word of Healing at them.
I never said it was better than RC , like i told you before i dont find RC worth for a PvE prot and i quoted you for that "hands down" on SoP over IJAFW.