Masochism now gives +2 death magic and soul reaping which looks good from the first glance. Obviously it will find its way into Discordway bars but is it really worth it?
Its only going to add 10 damage to Discord and 2 energy per kill but can help to reassign attribute points differently to make certain skills more powerful or increase the overall number and strength of minions if you are using multiple animate spells.
Thoughts?
Discord with new Masochism
Carnivorous Cupcake
Life Bringing
It's definitely worth it on the MM. On the other two heroes it will come down to what skills you have on the bar and if th eplayer thinks it's worth it. The health sac is relatively low and will be easy to heal through passive stuff like Recup or just random dropping of PwK when the pressure starts. Through testing, the 30 or so damage from discord and the extra damage on every death nova and the survivability on minions makes a big difference
Killamus
Health sac is too high. Regular discord is pretty much entirely 1s casts, sac'ing 4% HP every time adds up, quick. It's useful, but in my opinion, 6e every 15 seconds and an extra minion (Which will only be useful on one hero, really) and maybe 15 extra damage isn't worth losing 15 health every other second.
mathiastemplar
Might be worth it on the MM, not sure about the rest
*lol just realized that u can boost atts on fire ele to 24 and Death necro to 23 o.O*
any1 tried that? dmg must be sick
*lol just realized that u can boost atts on fire ele to 24 and Death necro to 23 o.O*
any1 tried that? dmg must be sick
jiggles
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Originally Posted by mathiastemplar
Might be worth it on the MM, not sure about the rest
*lol just realized that u can boost atts on fire ele to 24 and Death necro to 23 o.O*
any1 tried that? dmg must be sick 99% sure atts are capped at 20.
*lol just realized that u can boost atts on fire ele to 24 and Death necro to 23 o.O*
any1 tried that? dmg must be sick 99% sure atts are capped at 20.
subarucar
Definatly boosts the MM's effectiveness, the health sac is too much for the healer, the curse can handle the health sac, not sure if its worth it for the limited gain.
Chthon
ahem... Discordway isn't worth it in the first place. The new Masochsim doesn't change that.
Life Bringing
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Originally Posted by Chthon
ahem... Discordway isn't worth it in the first place. The new Masochsim doesn't change that.
ahem... discord blows shit up better than any other hero build. The only reason people don't like it is because you actually have to pay attention instead of going afk.
Dawn Angelheart
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
ahem... discord blows shit up better than any other hero build. The only reason people don't like it is because you actually have to pay attention instead of going afk.
HAve you tried 3 invoke lightning + Chain lightning eles.. BOOM BOOM.
Kitor
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Originally Posted by Dawn Angelheart
HAve you tried 3 invoke lightning + Chain lightning eles.. BOOM BOOM.
Are you not considering the part where HM enemies have tons of armor ._.?
OutlawFMA
Its kinda funny that now CL is exactly IL now except less dmg. But now I will put it on my bar since now exhaustion when enchanted.
Trader of Secrets
i can only really find room for it in the discord MM bar by replacing one of the monk utilities like aegis or convert hexes.
Awex Mafyews
Tried it out with one man version and it didn't make much difference at all that I could notice. Discord blows things up too quickly to worry about adding in an extra skill that isn't needed anyway. Plus the only skill I'd really replace for masochism is signet of lost souls which tbh is still probably better anyway.
Life Bringing
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Originally Posted by Trader of Secrets
i can only really find room for it in the discord MM bar by replacing one of the monk utilities like aegis or convert hexes.
My MM bar atm is:
Discord
Animate Bone Minions
Putrid Bile
Death Nova
Masochism
Aegis
Protective Spirit
Signet of Lost Souls
SoLS probably isn't needed, but i have no reason to replace it. If i was to replace it, i'd bring Convert.
Discord
Animate Bone Minions
Putrid Bile
Death Nova
Masochism
Aegis
Protective Spirit
Signet of Lost Souls
SoLS probably isn't needed, but i have no reason to replace it. If i was to replace it, i'd bring Convert.
Xenomortis
Quote: Originally Posted by Life Bringing
ahem... discord blows shit up better than any other hero build. The only reason people don't like it is because you actually have to pay attention instead of going afk.
And you're over exaggerating or are somewhat inexperienced.
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
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Exaggeration/slightly wrong wording.
It's a waste of a skill slot, casting time and energy. The degen is worthless and the AoE damage is insignificant when compared to the spike damage you put out and everything else going on. Honestly, 90 odd AoE damage every 12 seconds will not really be noticed or missed.Quote:
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You don't really need Putrid Bile there. I suggest some form of hex removal. If you're running minions on all your discord heroes, then Masochism probably isn't worth it. But to be honest, I'm not sure it's worth the effort to squeeze it in into any necro bar. I'll have to try it at some point myself. I only run minions on my MM, and, depending on the area, i put shambling on my second necro. I don't see any reason to not bring putrid. The AoE damage on death softens up other targets and makes them easier to spike down.
upier
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Originally Posted by Awex Mafyews
Plus the only skill I'd really replace for masochism is signet of lost souls which tbh is still probably better anyway.
I never run SoLS on any of my heroes.
I am not saying to run Maso, I am just saying you might get a free slot of out dumping SoLS. It's a perfect slot to waste it on Rip for instance.
Xenomortis |
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I only run minions on my MM, and, depending on the area, i put shambling on my second necro.
One of Discord's charms is that you can easily bring lots of minions. 20 odd undead allies running around is useful cover for a team composed entirely of squishies without a form of rock solid defense.
Actually, considering the odds, surely the difference between 11 Death Magic and 12 Death Magic isn't too hot. It must be possible to make a Me/N minion Bomber with 11 Death Magic, 10 Inspiration and 10 Fast Casting! And come to think of it, surely the difference between 11 Death Magic and 10 Death Magic isn't too hot either. We could go 12 Inspiration, 8 Fast Casting and 10 Death Magic. That would be interesting. Want to give it a try?
I'll say I think the difference matters.
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I agree about SoLS, it is a perfect waste of a slot and yet I continue to use it purely because I can't think of anything else and.....
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i think you misunderstand this post:Quote:
So you're saying it is possible to make a Me/N minion bomber using Fast Casting for faster minions and Inspiration Magic for energy superior to Necro primary? Attribute spread would be something like 12 Death Magic, 10 Inspiration, 8 Fast Casting.
Actually, considering the odds, surely the difference between 11 Death Magic and 12 Death Magic isn't too hot. It must be possible to make a Me/N minion Bomber with 11 Death Magic, 10 Inspiration and 10 Fast Casting! And come to think of it, surely the difference between 11 Death Magic and 10 Death Magic isn't too hot either. We could go 12 Inspiration, 8 Fast Casting and 10 Death Magic. That would be interesting. Want to give it a try?
I'll say I think the difference matters.
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Originally Posted by Paul Dawg
I don't think it beats putrid bile, by the way. Yes, putrid bile has an annoying 12-second recharge, but in those 12 seconds, it does 70-ish AoE damage. In the same twelve seconds, you're going to get in a maximum of six discords (and surely less than that in reality); for those six discords, masochism will give you a total of 66 bonus damage--and it's single-target damage.
It's a good argument but also consider:
1. +2 Death Magic affects other skills as well, e.g. Blood of the Master, Death Nova; 2. More minions, and tankier. Some people will argue that minions are there to blow up, but against tougher mobs you need the minions to stay alive as long as possible; 3. Less upkeep (5e / 34s + 20% as opposed to 10e / 12s); 4. Your other hero(es) might have Putrid Bile already; 5. +2 Soul Reaping gives you more energy, possibly allowing you to drop Signet of Lost Souls. What bar does your MM run? Paul Dawg
If the new masochism has a role to play, it's on the MM. There I can see the point (because frankly the added damage to death nova might outweigh the added damage to discord, especially with more minions). On the other guys, the only purpose would be to add 11 points to discord damage.
Awex Mafyews I am not saying to run Maso, I am just saying you might get a free slot of out dumping SoLS. It's a perfect slot to waste it on Rip for instance. |
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1. you aren't going to have aotl, this is discord.
2. The minions aren't there to deal damage, they are there solely to be meatshields, and mine do a perfectly good job of that with only 15 death magic.
3. whether or not 9 death magic is viable or not is irrelevant, nobody runs 9 DM with discord.
the facts, as i see them are:
Pros:
+2 DM/SR = +2 energy every time a creature dies (maximum +6e every 15 secons..) and +10.5 damage from discord
Cons:
uses up a skill slot
major health loss (death nova + discord spam anyone?)
If we assume that an average discord deals 100 dmg (give or take a few),and that an average discord hero has 600hp (give or take)
Each time a hero uses it they lose 4% of their maximum health.
600/100 = 6
6*4 = -24hp per discord
So all the damage the heros are dealing through discord, a quarter of it will come straight back., And that is only discord, with all the spells discord heros spam, they are gonna kill themselves seriously quickly.
so yes. masochism is "not too hot" and i won't be using it on any of my discord bars.
Jeydra
@paranon -
AotL is a great skill. Only reason I'd not run it is because it conflicts with the other two Necros' Animate [insert x]. Just because it is Discordway doesn't mean you need three heroes with Discord.
Masochism is 3% health sac, not 4% (count the +2 to Soul Reaping on recast).
The minions are there to be meatshields, and higher-level minions are (obviously) better meatshields. Actually the minions are also there to deal damage, if only via exploding with Death Nova, and higher-level Death Magic is also higher-damage Death Nova.
You are looking at ~15 damage per cast from Masochism, not 24 (run the Superior zzz).
By the way if the damage you take from Masochism is so heavy, does that make Vigorous Spirit the best heal spell in the game?
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Originally Posted by Gigashadow
AotL is a great skill. Only reason I'd not run it is because it conflicts with the other two Necros' Animate [insert x]. Just because it is Discordway doesn't mean you need three heroes with Discord.
Masochism is 3% health sac, not 4% (count the +2 to Soul Reaping on recast).
The minions are there to be meatshields, and higher-level minions are (obviously) better meatshields. Actually the minions are also there to deal damage, if only via exploding with Death Nova, and higher-level Death Magic is also higher-damage Death Nova.
You are looking at ~15 damage per cast from Masochism, not 24 (run the Superior zzz).
By the way if the damage you take from Masochism is so heavy, does that make Vigorous Spirit the best heal spell in the game?
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But 14 vs 12 death magic? Still a non-issue on a bomber. Why on earth would you bring 10 death magic instead of 12 on that guy when you don't gain any benefit from doing it; a bit more fast casting, slightly more inspiration, who would make that tradeoff? The tradeoff needs to actually be worthwhile. From your mesmer example with attribute points I think you are stuck on looking at things as simply choosing X death magic vs X+2 death magic with all other things being equal, when that is not the correct comparison. It is X death magic + {spend a skill slot on an activated ability to make your death magic +2} vs X death magic.
Gain from Masochism - +2 Death Magic, +2 Soul Reaping, and all associated benefits. Also it is something you can cast outside battle, leaving you more time in battle to cast Death Nova.
Loss from Masochism - really only one thing, it uses up a skill slot. The health sacrifice is fairly negligible; you lose ~15 health / 2 seconds for a grand total of constant 3 degen. Not a lot.
I'll run Masochism on the MM, replacing SoLS. The N/Rt healers not so - there's simply no room on their bars, and they are a lot less affected by increased Death Magic + Soul Reaping in any case. Someday though I might give it a try, with a different attribute spread (perhaps 11 Death 12 Resto 6 Soul Reaping, which with Masochism and runes would be 17 Death 12 Resto 9 Soul Reaping).
Loss from Masochism - really only one thing, it uses up a skill slot. The health sacrifice is fairly negligible; you lose ~15 health / 2 seconds for a grand total of constant 3 degen. Not a lot.
I'll run Masochism on the MM, replacing SoLS. The N/Rt healers not so - there's simply no room on their bars, and they are a lot less affected by increased Death Magic + Soul Reaping in any case. Someday though I might give it a try, with a different attribute spread (perhaps 11 Death 12 Resto 6 Soul Reaping, which with Masochism and runes would be 17 Death 12 Resto 9 Soul Reaping).
paranon
well, personally i won't be running masochism, the benefits are pretty small compared with the drawbacks imo
Killamus
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
Discordway overkills enemies anyways.
Which is basically why I run SoLS, purely because I can't think of a better skill that I don't already have on my discord bars.
KingCrab
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Originally Posted by Kitor
Are you not considering the part where HM enemies have tons of armor ._.?
Don't the lightning spells have 25% armor penetration to help with that?
paranon |
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You are looking at ~15 damage per cast from Masochism, not 24 (run the Superior zzz).
Superiors on heroes are a bad idea (Absorption/vigor are the exceptions). Lower health = bigger target = more damage = dead necro = dead party. Heroes should have second highest HP in your party, second to you. If you are dead, your heroes can't use discord properly. Quote:
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