Discord with new Masochism

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

20 Aug 2009 at 15:13 - 41

If heroes won't recast it then micro it ... of course it's preferable the AI gets updated to recast before it expires, but even if it doesn't that doesn't mean you can't manual it.

Superiors are great. The argument's been covered elsewhere. You can not run them if you want, I'll stick them on all my heroes except Monks.

SoLS might be better energy management, but Masochism is also +2 Death.

Mr Emu

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/A

20 Aug 2009 at 17:50 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

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Superiors are great. The argument's been covered elsewhere. You can not run them if you want, I'll stick them on all my heroes except Monks. Can you point that argument out to me please?

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

21 Aug 2009 at 01:00 - 43

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10385808

Killamus

Guest

Join Date: Oct 2008

21 Aug 2009 at 02:34 - 44

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

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http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10385808 ... That argument is against superiors in HM, and last I checked, Discord was a HM team build.
Anything goes in NM, you can power through NM with the random build generator on these forums. (Well, it used to be here...)

Less HP is almost always considered a very bad thing in HM, the few exceptions would be invuln tanks (I.E. shadow formers) and people who are supposed to attract aggro. The people who are supposed to be doing the killing should not be attracting aggro.

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

21 Aug 2009 at 04:47 - 45

Originally Posted by Killamus

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... That argument is against superiors in HM, and last I checked, Discord was a HM team build.
Anything goes in NM, you can power through NM with the random build generator on these forums. (Well, it used to be here...)

Less HP is almost always considered a very bad thing in HM, the few exceptions would be invuln tanks (I.E. shadow formers) and people who are supposed to attract aggro. The people who are supposed to be doing the killing should not be attracting aggro. I use superiors on 2 of my discorders.

Stronger attributes means heroes are casting more efficiently = less casting needed. If anything, I would sacrifice energy for HP/armor. By using a shield or a caster spear/bison cup.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

21 Aug 2009 at 07:43 - 46

Originally Posted by Killamus

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... That argument is against superiors in HM, and last I checked, Discord was a HM team build.
Anything goes in NM, you can power through NM with the random build generator on these forums. (Well, it used to be here...)

Less HP is almost always considered a very bad thing in HM, the few exceptions would be invuln tanks (I.E. shadow formers) and people who are supposed to attract aggro. The people who are supposed to be doing the killing should not be attracting aggro. Yes I'm assuming HM, and I run Superiors on all my heroes except Monks anyway.

You say less HP is "almost always considered a very bad thing in HM". By who? Certainly not by me. That's a blanket statement you'll need to back up, and even then it still doesn't matter because Fire Magic is almost always considered the best element to use in HM, and yet no intelligent (+ aware) Elementalist runs it in most areas.

The people who are supposed to be doing the killing should be killing, aka. pumping out damage, which means use the Superiors.

But I do not want to argue Superiors. I'll use them. You can not use them if you don't want to, which gives you the higher health sac from Masochism, which makes you not want to use it, which means you have 14 Death Magic vs. the 19 I operate with, which is perfectly fine. Whatever works for you.

Spiritweaver

Banned

Join Date: Jul 2009

21 Aug 2009 at 09:04 - 47

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

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+5 death magic isn't free, it has an opportunity cost, in this case -75 health, picking a particular elite instead of a more useful one, and putting another specific skill on your bar (which has costs, sacrifice, etc.) instead of some other one. Either I read it wrong or you did.

You can get +5 Death Magic without using a Major or Superior Rune (+1+1 headpiece, +1 Aura of the Lich, +2 Masochism). You can get a 20% chance of +6 before using runes (Master of my Domain), and +7 if using consets. Take 1 off that number if you don't want to run Aura of the Lich.

Personally I run Masochism on my MM and have no troubles with the health cost on HM thanks to Dwaynas Sorrow. Higher damage Discord, higher damage Death Nova, higher damage Putrid Bile, better energy gain from Soul Reaping, more minions. The pros clearly outwiegh the cons.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

09 Sep 2009 at 21:26 - 48

Originally Posted by Jeydra

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Yes I'm assuming HM, and I run Superiors on all my heroes except Monks anyway.

You say less HP is "almost always considered a very bad thing in HM". By who? Certainly not by me. That's a blanket statement you'll need to back up, and even then it still doesn't matter because Fire Magic is almost always considered the best element to use in HM, and yet no intelligent (+ aware) Elementalist runs it in most areas.

The people who are supposed to be doing the killing should be killing, aka. pumping out damage, which means use the Superiors.

But I do not want to argue Superiors. I'll use them. You can not use them if you don't want to, which gives you the higher health sac from Masochism, which makes you not want to use it, which means you have 14 Death Magic vs. the 19 I operate with, which is perfectly fine. Whatever works for you. I even use superiors on monks because more life = better against spikes but higher attributes = stronger heals and longer prots. In a long fight, having higher attributes > having higher life.

Maybe that when your monks are humans they needs other to have higher life so they have more time to react but when your whole team is consisted of H/H then it's not a problem because their reaction time is greater than a human.

thor thunder

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2007

Mass

Cellestial Guard

W/E

09 Sep 2009 at 23:41 - 49

IDK if somone mentioned this, i read most of the posts but its alot of the same,

If max Masochism is -3% and your useing it to push your attributes..

Then you should already have +3 runes.. and if you have +3 runes and prot spirit in your bar, Why not add another +3 or two, kill some Max health and make use of prot spirit..? and lessin the dmg you take from Masochism...??

yes i know 3% is 3% but 3% off lets say 200-300 hp is alot easyer and cheaper too heal then 3% of 550-600..?? correct me if my thinking is wrong here. you shouldn't be worrying about aggro if your a halfbreed MM..... thats the idea of an MM amiright??

Killamus

Guest

Join Date: Oct 2008

10 Sep 2009 at 01:52 - 50

Originally Posted by Jeyra

You say less HP is "almost always considered a very bad thing in HM". By who? Certainly not by me. That's a blanket statement you'll need to back up, and even then it still doesn't matter because Fire Magic is almost always considered the best element to use in HM, and yet no intelligent (+ aware) Elementalist runs it in most areas.

Less HP = More aggro on you. The less total HP you have (Also, less current too, but that's irrelevant in this argument) the more the foes are going to go right onto you. So, while -75 HP might not be a lot, it's probably going to cause the enemy to ignore your warrior and go straight for your squishies, AKA your damage dealers AKA your necros. Who will then be REALLY suffering from that -75 HP.

I would also like to know who considers fire magic to be good in hard mode, because I haven't seen a single person in my guild/alliance who does. Actually, eles don't have much of a place as a general nuker in hard mode, just because enemies take such little damage from non-armor ignoring damage. They're more utility (ER protter, aoe blind, etc).
Quote: The people who are supposed to be doing the killing should be killing, aka. pumping out damage, which means use the Superiors. Kinda hard to kill stuff while you're dead because the enemies ignored your tank.
Quote: But I do not want to argue Superiors. I'll use them. You can not use them if you don't want to, which gives you the higher health sac from Masochism, which makes you not want to use it, which means you have 14 Death Magic vs. the 19 I operate with, which is perfectly fine. Whatever works for you. Actually, I rarely run with 14. I think only my MM has 14 death, the rest have 12 or 13 (10-11-10 splits). With this setup, my heroes rarely get aggro, and the minions die a lot faster (Which is nice for death nova).

Originally Posted by thor thunder

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yes i know 3% is 3% but 3% off lets say 200-300 hp is alot easyer and cheaper too heal then 3% of 550-600..?? correct me if my thinking is wrong here. you shouldn't be worrying about aggro if your a halfbreed MM..... thats the idea of an MM amiright?? You've just defined a 55 monk, one of (If not the) oldest farming build out there. Basically, they reduce their HP to 55 via runes, so they only take 5 damage a hit from enemies, and then just use regen (a la healing breeze) to heal the little damage they've taken.

However, I would point out several BAD things in this argument. First and foremost: Any minion master should always be worried about aggro and should attempt to flee aggro at the first sign of trouble. Only minion masters with the spell "Dark Bond" up should not be bothered with this. Why? Because if you die, your minions go kamikaze and start attacking the party. With dark bond, odds are all your minions would die before you did, so it doesn't matter.

Necros, generally speaking, are squishy, and targeted often. Heroes aren't very smart about getting out of aggro unless you set them to flee (Which defeats the purpose of discordway, as they don't use discord while in flee mode), so having the highest HP possible to reduce the amount of aggro they will get is a prime goal.

Yes, 3% isn't much, especially when coupled with superior runes. However, like I said - The AI isn't smart. If you have very low HP (200-300) you'll be targeted above almost everything else. In high end areas, monsters can and will strike for above your maximum HP, and easily. So unless you're prepared to maintain protective spirit on all of your heroes constantly, (A hero monk will not do this, and if they did they will run out of energy before you could blink), lower HP is a bad idea.

Of course, there are exceptions to this (Permasin, 55 monk) but for general play, higher HP = better.

tl;dr - No.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

10 Sep 2009 at 01:56 - 51

Originally Posted by Killamus

Less HP = More aggro on you. The less total HP you have (Also, less current too, but that's irrelevant in this argument) the more the foes are going to go right onto you. So, while -75 HP might not be a lot, it's probably going to cause the enemy to ignore your warrior and go straight for your squishies, AKA your damage dealers AKA your necros. Who will then be REALLY suffering from that -75 HP.

I would also like to know who considers fire magic to be good in hard mode, because I haven't seen a single person in my guild/alliance who does. Actually, eles don't have much of a place as a general nuker in hard mode, just because enemies take such little damage from non-armor ignoring damage. They're more utility (ER protter, aoe blind, etc).

I don't run Warriors. I also have YMLAD! to defend myself. I don't mind taking aggro if I have Prot Spirit on myself.

PuG more often and you'll see lots of Fire Elementalists. Heck yesterday I even say someone go "Fire Ele LFG ZB" when the Zaishen Bounty is Forgewight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killamus Kinda hard to kill stuff while you're dead because the enemies ignored your tank. Don't die.

I don't see how I avoid dying while H/H'ing and you seem to have problems with a human party including ER Protters and such, lol.

Originally Posted by thor thunder

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IDK if somone mentioned this, i read most of the posts but its alot of the same,

If max Masochism is -3% and your useing it to push your attributes..

Then you should already have +3 runes.. and if you have +3 runes and prot spirit in your bar, Why not add another +3 or two, kill some Max health and make use of prot spirit..? and lessin the dmg you take from Masochism...??

yes i know 3% is 3% but 3% off lets say 200-300 hp is alot easyer and cheaper too heal then 3% of 550-600..?? correct me if my thinking is wrong here. you shouldn't be worrying about aggro if your a halfbreed MM..... thats the idea of an MM amiright?? There comes a threshold for HP beyond which it gets really dangerous. Personally I'd put that threshold at about ~400 HP for most areas (for the tougher areas, ~500 might be closer to the threshold). If you go under 400 HP then there's every chance you die before your Monks can heal you, even though they have the energy.

Now running 2x Superior runes will not put you under 400 HP, so you can run it if you want - but if you run 400 HP and you die once, then you are under that 400 HP threshold and might very well die a second time, and third, etc. Also, you only have one damage-dealing attribute (i.e. Death Magic - Soul Reaping doesn't deal damage). And so I run one Superior max.

PS: Prot Spirit is no guarantee of invulnerability. If you're taking damage from something like Barbs or Hundred Blades or Mark of Pain, then Prot Spirit doesn't save you.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

10 Sep 2009 at 02:20 - 52

Originally Posted by Killamus

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Less HP = More aggro on you. The less total HP you have (Also, less current too, but that's irrelevant in this argument) the more the foes are going to go right onto you. So, while -75 HP might not be a lot, it's probably going to cause the enemy to ignore your warrior and go straight for your squishies, AKA your damage dealers AKA your necros. Who will then be REALLY suffering from that -75 HP.

I would also like to know who considers fire magic to be good in hard mode, because I haven't seen a single person in my guild/alliance who does. Actually, eles don't have much of a place as a general nuker in hard mode, just because enemies take such little damage from non-armor ignoring damage. They're more utility (ER protter, aoe blind, etc).
Kinda hard to kill stuff while you're dead because the enemies ignored your tank.
Actually, I rarely run with 14. I think only my MM has 14 death, the rest have 12 or 13 (10-11-10 splits). With this setup, my heroes rarely get aggro, and the minions die a lot faster (Which is nice for death nova).

You've just defined a 55 monk, one of (If not the) oldest farming build out there. Basically, they reduce their HP to 55 via runes, so they only take 5 damage a hit from enemies, and then just use regen (a la healing breeze) to heal the little damage they've taken.

However, I would point out several BAD things in this argument. First and foremost: Any minion master should always be worried about aggro and should attempt to flee aggro at the first sign of trouble. Only minion masters with the spell "Dark Bond" up should not be bothered with this. Why? Because if you die, your minions go kamikaze and start attacking the party. With dark bond, odds are all your minions would die before you did, so it doesn't matter.

Necros, generally speaking, are squishy, and targeted often. Heroes aren't very smart about getting out of aggro unless you set them to flee (Which defeats the purpose of discordway, as they don't use discord while in flee mode), so having the highest HP possible to reduce the amount of aggro they will get is a prime goal.

Yes, 3% isn't much, especially when coupled with superior runes. However, like I said - The AI isn't smart. If you have very low HP (200-300) you'll be targeted above almost everything else. In high end areas, monsters can and will strike for above your maximum HP, and easily. So unless you're prepared to maintain protective spirit on all of your heroes constantly, (A hero monk will not do this, and if they did they will run out of energy before you could blink), lower HP is a bad idea.

Of course, there are exceptions to this (Permasin, 55 monk) but for general play, higher HP = better.

tl;dr - No. Seriously if you think that sup runes are too risky then I suspect your playing skills. I did all of the HM dungeons H/H no cons by using sup a rune on myself and 3 heroes. Actually, the hardest groups are the ones that takes a while to kill so your party depletes their mana pool. The spiking ennemies that you encounter in PVE are almost never balanced groups so they're all dead too fast before putting pressure on the party, just let one player eat the initial spike with PS on him. In longer fights, superior runes > regular ones because they brings more damage and more healing. After 30 seconds of fight, that -75 health has easily been healed back with healing skills boosted by 2 in their attributes. Sup runes = 2 more into the main attribute of any players so that means more damage, more healing, longer enchants, hex, stances, shouts, chants, conditions, everything. 75 health out of 500+ is nothing compared to what sup runes brings back. There is very few spells that spikes for 450 + damage in PVE and most of them are easily avoidable by using strategy.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

10 Sep 2009 at 02:57 - 53

Minions are a higher priority target than basically anything. Sup death makes them last longer, meaning your heroes get targeted less.

MercenaryKnight

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2006

Wolf of Shadows [WoS]

P/

10 Sep 2009 at 03:28 - 54

Minions aren't always the highest priority target. Usually they will gain some of the innitial aggro from melee (IF) your minions aren't lagging behind. Which usually they will lag behind. So usually you'll still be hit first by the initial aggro/ ranged enemies especially if your making use of death nova.

So I wouldn't put lower hp and hoping that minions will always get first priority.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

10 Sep 2009 at 03:50 - 55

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

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Minions aren't always the highest priority target. Usually they will gain some of the innitial aggro from melee (IF) your minions aren't lagging behind. Which usually they will lag behind. So usually you'll still be hit first by the initial aggro/ ranged enemies especially if your making use of death nova.

So I wouldn't put lower hp and hoping that minions will always get first priority. Well minions still takes more damage in a fight than all the 8 party members combined. Not to mention that Sos is 3 meat shield that gets targeted like crazy, doesnt require corpses and can be renewed every 20 seconds. These guys can take a lot of damage. I love using 2 discords and a Sos heroes. They eats so much damage that the healing AI get's borred.

Life Bringing

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

Fissure of Woe

[LOD]/[GS]/[DL]/[LOD*]

N/P

10 Sep 2009 at 04:31 - 56

Originally Posted by kanuks View Post

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Seriously if you think that sup runes are too risky then I suspect your playing skills. I did all of the HM dungeons H/H no cons by using sup a rune on myself and 3 heroes. Actually, the hardest groups are the ones that takes a while to kill so your party depletes their mana pool. The spiking ennemies that you encounter in PVE are almost never balanced groups so they're all dead too fast before putting pressure on the party, just let one player eat the initial spike with PS on him. In longer fights, superior runes > regular ones because they brings more damage and more healing. After 30 seconds of fight, that -75 health has easily been healed back with healing skills boosted by 2 in their attributes. Sup runes = 2 more into the main attribute of any players so that means more damage, more healing, longer enchants, hex, stances, shouts, chants, conditions, everything. 75 health out of 500+ is nothing compared to what sup runes brings back. There is very few spells that spikes for 450 + damage in PVE and most of them are easily avoidable by using strategy. The thing about runes in pve is that they have to serve a purpose. Sup runes for the sake of having sup runes isn't worth the -75 hp. The only viable reason to go above a minor rune is when trying to hit an important breakpoint. Wanting an extra couple points of healing from your monks isn't a very viable reason to run superiors. However, pushing for the 14 channeling breakpoint for splinter weapon is important enough to throw a major on your rit to hit it. If you're running 1 MM, then yes, a sup rune is good because it hits an extra minion breakpoint at 16, as well as the extra 5(or 10) damage from Death Nova stacking tenfold. That being said, there is never a viable reason to go very far below 500hp. If any of my heroes should drop very far below there, i'll throw on a shield set/high health set to balance out the loss of health.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

10 Sep 2009 at 11:24 - 57

Originally Posted by Jeydra

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Don't die.

I don't see how I avoid dying while H/H'ing and you seem to have problems with a human party including ER Protters and such, lol. So u never ever die, nor do ur heroes.

And the reason for that is that you have less health and deal a few more damage.

Ok.

I think you should had a third superior rune and drop any health runes for energy runes.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

10 Sep 2009 at 11:38 - 58

Read this buddy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

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There comes a threshold for HP beyond which it gets really dangerous. Personally I'd put that threshold at about ~400 HP for most areas (for the tougher areas, ~500 might be closer to the threshold). If you go under 400 HP then there's every chance you die before your Monks can heal you, even though they have the energy.

Now running 2x Superior runes will not put you under 400 HP, so you can run it if you want - but if you run 400 HP and you die once, then you are under that 400 HP threshold and might very well die a second time, and third, etc. Also, you only have one damage-dealing attribute (i.e. Death Magic - Soul Reaping doesn't deal damage). And so I run one Superior max. Yes I do die sometimes, but usually not enough times for me to regret running the Superiors (i.e. my DP is almost never > 30%).

PS: Look at this ...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...14#post4848114

Forge HM, one of the hardest areas in the game for sure. I make it through with Superior runes on everybody. Did take a few deaths yes, but nothing critical - just look at DP.

Now of course there are times when the -75 HP from the Superior rune kills you. It happened once in this dungeon actually. I was on ~40 HP an my shield set (which is +30 health +5 armor by the way) and Diseased. I'd disengaged at that point, and swapped to enchanting set to put up the Attunement, and died because of it. For sure I wouldn't have died if I didn't have a Superior rune (although in this particular case I wouldn't have died either if I hadn't swapped off shield set until I got healed).

But ... it's not like it's that important. One death in the entire dungeon that didn't result in a wipe, that doesn't matter a lot, especially since the -16 damage from Lightning Orbs @ Stone Summit Healers / Flowstone Elementals / Burning Spirits if I dropped to 14 Air, not to mention the drop in damage from minions / spirits / Painful Bond, could've meant I missed the quick kills I needed and all the associated problems.

Superior runes on damage characters for the win!

PPS: Masochism is featured, too.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

10 Sep 2009 at 12:07 - 59

Originally Posted by Jeydra

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Yes I do die sometimes, but never enough times for me to regret running the Superiors (i.e. my DP is usually never > 30%). Yes, but from I read, you also play most of the time h/h which already caps any benefit of max health due to the 480 of the henchmen.

Additionally, I have the impression that you spend considerable time flagging and luring (well I do when playing with stupid hench, which happens rarely thank goodness).

Advocating superiors to kill faster isn't as compelling when that increase is spent in setting up or running back to avoid wipes - higher individual health parties have an easier time to win battles even with members down.

Of course when all your party members can use runes, there is quite a difference between a party with avg healths of 600+ vs parties with avg healths of 500.

On the other hand, henchmen are pretty much just fillers in discord parties, adding a lot less when compared to the discord necros. Hence probably makes sense to make the player and the necro trio have as much health as possible.

Additionally, if you don't have to rely on henchmen, the biggest speed buff you can get to clear (most) areas is to add a Movement Buff - fallback for example.

Using sup runes have a much inferior penalty in h/h because henchmen are pants anyway. Once you go to 2 players or more, the penalty is a lot steeper.

madriel222

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2008

Denver, Colorado

Reign of Judgment [RoJ]

Me/A

10 Sep 2009 at 13:25 - 60

I can understand why you would want a superior rune on a player. You can position yourself to avoid unnecessary aggro. You can run when you have to. And, probably most importantly, the player typically has the higher damage potential of the group. In this case, sure, strap on -75 health, you're killing faster after all.

Discord heroes in particular though, are better off with minor runes in my experience. Having a set of heroes with both (superior on my necro's heroes, minors on my ele's), I can say with certainty that the extra few points of damage you get on a discord spike with superiors isn't enough to matter in 99% of cases. If you're spiking cleanly, your target is going to die in just about the same number of casts with either rune.

This, of course, would depend on your playstyle. I like to hotkey my hero's Discord for a clean, immediate spike, but I know a few players who like to just sit back and watch the heroes do the work. There's nothing wrong with that, and yes, in that circumstance the extra damage from superior runes would start to add up. But if your'e calling, and even better if you're micro-ing, it's much more beneficial to have more health than more death magic, in my experience.

I'm not going to make a blanket statement or try to prove anyone wrong, that's just what I've gathered from playing.

Carnivorous Cupcake

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2009

Lolrus League [lol]

A/E

10 Sep 2009 at 14:47 - 61

Guys, stop arguing. Sometimes a Superior would make sense, sometimes it wont.

For example a caster could get away with a Superior to gain a bit more damage, heal, minions or spirits. On other hand a melee or physical character would not gain much from the higher attribute investment but would surely feel the negative effect of losing 75hp.

Ofcourse, in the case of Jeyda a full superior rune set makes sense. On the MM it would mean a very high level minion wall, spirit spammers would end up with stronger, more resilient spirits. Defense they provide makes up for health loss.

Contratingly on a build like Discordway superiors won't make any sense. Averege team has additional copies of minion animates on seperate characters , the wall is already big enough for extra pair of minions not to matter. Plus that team hugely overdamages already, extra damage gain from superior would just be absolutely redundant.

So, it depends. What you can't say is that superiors are absolutely useless.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

11 Sep 2009 at 02:15 - 62

Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post

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Yes, but from I read, you also play most of the time h/h which already caps any benefit of max health due to the 480 of the henchmen.

Additionally, I have the impression that you spend considerable time flagging and luring (well I do when playing with stupid hench, which happens rarely thank goodness).

Advocating superiors to kill faster isn't as compelling when that increase is spent in setting up or running back to avoid wipes - higher individual health parties have an easier time to win battles even with members down.

Of course when all your party members can use runes, there is quite a difference between a party with avg healths of 600+ vs parties with avg healths of 500.

On the other hand, henchmen are pretty much just fillers in discord parties, adding a lot less when compared to the discord necros. Hence probably makes sense to make the player and the necro trio have as much health as possible.

Additionally, if you don't have to rely on henchmen, the biggest speed buff you can get to clear (most) areas is to add a Movement Buff - fallback for example.

Using sup runes have a much inferior penalty in h/h because henchmen are pants anyway. Once you go to 2 players or more, the penalty is a lot steeper. Well we are talking about H/H... look at the subforum this thread has been created in...

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

11 Sep 2009 at 11:21 - 63

Originally Posted by kanuks

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Well we are talking about H/H... look at the subforum this thread has been created in... Heroes & AI.

Not H/H.

And for your information I can use 6 heroes even on my own.

Also, if the reason to justify the use of a superior rune is "deal more damage and don't die much" a very easy counter to that argument is "I die less and still kill". Basically they are both pointless arguments.

What matters is the overall speed you complete something.

If you have a build that can kill a mob of monster in 20-30 secs and another build that will kill the same mobs in 1 minute and we have around 10 mobs, but then the first build spend 20 minutes walking and setting up while the slower killing build only takes 10 minutes to do the same walking and setting up, build A doesn't seem superior to build B anymore.

Superior runes to power up minions always made sense, because minions get more of everything.

The MB hero was always about providing meat shields to absorb some damage and then deal some damage when they die.

Masochisms to power discords on the other hand seems pointless.

10-12 more damage seems loads but in fact is only 2% of the health of a 600 hp mob.

Then look at Jeydra build on forge hm (good job btw Jeydra) and from what I've read on other threads is also a build Jeydra use other times. The sup air rune increase damage of lightning orb and chain lightning, but a huge amount of the damage comes from the norn shouts and EVAS.

I think I've been in more situations "ooof I escaped with 10 hp" then "If only I had 50 more damage all over my team I would have killed that mob that then wiped us".

More - higher health allows you to take higher risks.

Concluding, higher damage at expense of health, in my experience, doesn't always translate in higher clearing speed.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

11 Sep 2009 at 12:33 - 64

Agree , since +2 changed to -35hp instead of -50 , those +3 runes were 90% of the times pointless. Even thou on MM .... dont think 1-2 more minions with 1 more lvl are going to make a diff .

Mr Emu

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/A

11 Sep 2009 at 18:50 - 65

so it seems as though our consensus is:
If the runes strongly affect defensive skills, a +3 is valid because it won't lead to more deaths and have additional damage as a side effect?

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

11 Sep 2009 at 20:52 - 66

Originally Posted by Improvavel

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Heroes & AI.

Not H/H.

And for your information I can use 6 heroes even on my own.

Also, if the reason to justify the use of a superior rune is "deal more damage and don't die much" a very easy counter to that argument is "I die less and still kill". Basically they are both pointless arguments.

What matters is the overall speed you complete something.

If you have a build that can kill a mob of monster in 20-30 secs and another build that will kill the same mobs in 1 minute and we have around 10 mobs, but then the first build spend 20 minutes walking and setting up while the slower killing build only takes 10 minutes to do the same walking and setting up, build A doesn't seem superior to build B anymore.

Superior runes to power up minions always made sense, because minions get more of everything.

The MB hero was always about providing meat shields to absorb some damage and then deal some damage when they die.

Masochisms to power discords on the other hand seems pointless.

10-12 more damage seems loads but in fact is only 2% of the health of a 600 hp mob.

Then look at Jeydra build on forge hm (good job btw Jeydra) and from what I've read on other threads is also a build Jeydra use other times. The sup air rune increase damage of lightning orb and chain lightning, but a huge amount of the damage comes from the norn shouts and EVAS.

I think I've been in more situations "ooof I escaped with 10 hp" then "If only I had 50 more damage all over my team I would have killed that mob that then wiped us".

More - higher health allows you to take higher risks.

Concluding, higher damage at expense of health, in my experience, doesn't always translate in higher clearing speed. Seriously if you're too scared to use sup runes when using 6 heroes then maybe it's because that you don't aggro very well and basically leeroy into everything, which is NOT the fastest way to kill. With 6 Heroes it's so easy that you can easily afford sup runes on all heroes and tune your attributes to reach better breakpoints on all of them. That doesn't necessarily means going 16 into their main attributes, it could mean reaching better bp's in lower attribute's skills.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

11 Sep 2009 at 20:56 - 67

Originally Posted by Mr Emu

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so it seems as though our consensus is:
If the runes strongly affect defensive skills, a +3 is valid because it won't lead to more deaths and have additional damage as a side effect? Well basically, higher life is more secure against spikes but less efficient in longer fights, especially against balanced groups like the dwarves in Slaver's Exile or the charrs in Rragar's Menagerie.

Dazzen

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2006

11 Sep 2009 at 21:32 - 68

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

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Agree , since +2 changed to -35hp instead of -50 , those +3 runes were 90% of the times pointless. Even thou on MM .... dont think 1-2 more minions with 1 more lvl are going to make a diff . More minions = better meat shield = better prot.

It's shining if you can spirit pull :

Put spirits at edge of aggro bubble, pull with bow (behind spirits), then run back => mobs will aggro spirits.
Run back to MM, cast summon spirits => the mobs will move toward spirits because they aggroed. At this time, minions should move forward to meet the aggroed mobs.
Then run forward (up to minions), cast summon spirits => you've set up an extreme body blocking meat shield.

I've been using this lately and it's really powerful. Some kind of AI abuse since they'll either target Spirits or minions first with this setup.

IF you can use minions as a good meatshield = you don't take damage = your life doesn't matter.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

11 Sep 2009 at 22:47 - 69

Originally Posted by kanuks View Post

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Seriously if you're too scared to use sup runes when using 6 heroes then maybe it's because that you don't aggro very well and basically leeroy into everything, which is NOT the fastest way to kill. With 6 Heroes it's so easy that you can easily afford sup runes on all heroes and tune your attributes to reach better breakpoints on all of them. That doesn't necessarily means going 16 into their main attributes, it could mean reaching better bp's in lower attribute's skills.

Yes I suck and I'm too scared.

Now that we set that question aside, exactly which breakpoints are so important that u need a superior rune?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Emu

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so it seems as though our consensus is:
If the runes strongly affect defensive skills, a +3 is valid because it won't lead to more deaths and have additional damage as a side effect? Not exactly. Very few people will advocate running superior runes on monks.

In the case of Minions and spirits it does add a bit - and minions and spirits are additional targets. For some reason junk meat walls work very well on this game.

For example, it isn't just an extra level or 2 on minion - it is 1 level or 2 on a bunch of them - more levels mean higher armor, health and damage. Higher death magic even raise the number of minions you can control.

Increasing 10 damage on a spell on the other hand, isn't that impressive. Or actually it isn't because it may force you to play more carefully and because 10 damage represents 2% of the health of 600 health mob (typical lvl 26).

For example, in the case of discords necro trio, where 3 discords will hit between 260-300 damage, adding another 30-40 damage to that total at the expense of 225 health on your team doesn't seem worthwhile.

Actually on humans, if you have 2 headpieces, one +1 and another +3 to swap in case of DP, it really doesn't matter much.

Then it depends how it fits your playstyle.

If you are a careful player, choosing your engagement point, flagging all you AI very well, etc, using the sup runes can make some sense.

If you prefer to play a more relaxed game or simply sometimes take risks and decide to take on 2 mobs instead of just 1, the extra health (or armor if you choose to run armor insignias over survivor runes) will help this play style more than extra damage. Don't forget the most efficient damage still is AoE and will scale better with the number of enemies.

Generally in GW never comes to a race to see who kills each other faster - generally your defense either stands and then the only way to go down is an enemy spike (that higher health is good against) or your defense crumbles.

Occasionally there is a resource attrition war, but not very often.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

12 Sep 2009 at 00:11 - 70

What you don't seem to get is that 75 life out of 600 isn't that much either... Not to mention that everyone uses PS so having less life means taking less damage. Also, you say that 10 damage increase isn't worth it but you don't mention that it increases all damage spells, not only one. Also, whatever skills that has a duration will last longer which means less cast and therefore more energy and more time to cast something else. I personally always used a sup rune on myself and heroes and I never felt like "oh shit that spike was nasty, I should of not used sup runes!" There is so few dangerous spike in GW and the ones that are dangerous won't be prevented by having more life, they will be prevented by using interrupts or prots.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

13 Sep 2009 at 09:58 - 71

@Improvavel - yes I spend most of my time H/H'ing, so I claim no experience over 2-man teams. That said, I don't see what's wrong with running Superiors in 2-man teams. If everyone in the party is running Superiors, then everyone has ~500 health and you won't be drawing aggro more than the next man. If your partner isn't running Superiors, then your heroes still have ~500 health, and you won't be drawing aggro more than they do ... and even if you are drawing that much aggro, so what? The monsters are there, they will be hitting someone. If you're not taking damage then your party members will be. What's the difference? Especially since you're human, which lets you prekite / switch to defensive set / micro Prot Spirit on yourself etc. I've been on higher DP than my teammates before and it's never really struck me as anything important (aggrowise - the DP of course is important).

What's more, it really doesn't take that long to set up. I've written elsewhere, things haven't changed. Executing a pull is simply flagging henchmen further away and using a Longbow. Facing powerful AoE is flagging heroes and henchmen manually apart, which takes all of 5 seconds, probably less. When DP'ed / facing really hard mobs, you execute a longpull, which is 5 seconds of setup and 20 seconds of running back and forth. You make it sound as though (real) care is necessary when playing with Superiors; that's simply not the case. Real care is necessary in hard areas, but the areas which require longpulls are few and far between, and if you're going to VQ an area like Varajar Fells or Riven Earth, you can should be able to play quite recklessly. If you think the setup makes it such that running Superiors actually slows you down, I'd appreciate something to compare with.

You're right that with the build I ran, a major part of the damage comes from EBVAS and the two Norn shouts, but Lightning Orb / Chain Lightning is still an integral part of the gameplay and very important in spiking down Flowstones / Burning Spirits / Summit healers. I realized just as much when I did Blood Washes Blood the other day and had to give up a spell for Volfen Blessing (I chose Chain Lightning, still felt hampered).

The game doesn't come down to who can kill the other first very often, but it does happen: e.g. Burning Forest in Sacnoth Valley. If you can hold against Borguus Blisterbark + his patrol of Burning Spirits indefinitely, I'd be interested in seeing how you do it (it should be possible with human teams with two Ether Prots maintaining Protective Bond on all 8 players, but I can't see anything else).

It may be possible that sometimes I wipe because my teams have -75 HP collectively, but if that happens too often I don't salvage the Superior runes off, re-equip with Minors and try again, I look critically at my teambuild and try to improve it.

@kanus - I still think the Superiors on defensive characters aren't worth it. Yes you heal more, but overhealing does no good. If someone has just taken 100 damage, healing for 120 or 130 changes nothing, and hence why not stick with Minors?

Here's what Div wrote over at the Monk subforum, I largely agree (except the Duncan part):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Div

Here's my argument on Superior vs Minor runes: Inexperienced players like to look at skills and when they see big numbers, they're happy. While it is true with damage attributes such as fire magic, what you have to realize is that most of the time, the extra few points of healing/divine doesn't really matter, since you're either going to be overhealing a target (aka bringing them to more than their maximum health), or it'll bring them to something like 80% (as opposed to 79% with a minor), the fight will end, and they'll regen to full. Having more prot works the same way (in terms of damage prevention, and the duration of the prot often doesn't matter at all since the fight is either over before it expires or the mob has already removed it by expiring. In either case, you won't feel the benefits of the superior rune, even though the numbers may look bigger. However, what you will feel is the cold floor when the elementalist or ritualist boss smacks you for 550 health (which just happened today--damn Duncan--and I was glad I had 640 health!). @Mr. Emu - the consensus I think is that there is no consensus. Run what you want to run. If minor runes have always worked for you, then by all means, use them. What works for you is the best for you, after all.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

15 Sep 2009 at 16:36 - 72

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

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@Improvavel - yes I spend most of my time H/H'ing, so I claim no experience over 2-man teams. That said, I don't see what's wrong with running Superiors in 2-man teams. If everyone in the party is running Superiors, then everyone has ~500 health and you won't be drawing aggro more than the next man. If your partner isn't running Superiors, then your heroes still have ~500 health, and you won't be drawing aggro more than they do ... and even if you are drawing that much aggro, so what? The monsters are there, they will be hitting someone. If you're not taking damage then your party members will be. What's the difference? Especially since you're human, which lets you prekite / switch to defensive set / micro Prot Spirit on yourself etc. I've been on higher DP than my teammates before and it's never really struck me as anything important (aggrowise - the DP of course is important).

What's more, it really doesn't take that long to set up. I've written elsewhere, things haven't changed. Executing a pull is simply flagging henchmen further away and using a Longbow. Facing powerful AoE is flagging heroes and henchmen manually apart, which takes all of 5 seconds, probably less. When DP'ed / facing really hard mobs, you execute a longpull, which is 5 seconds of setup and 20 seconds of running back and forth. You make it sound as though (real) care is necessary when playing with Superiors; that's simply not the case. Real care is necessary in hard areas, but the areas which require longpulls are few and far between, and if you're going to VQ an area like Varajar Fells or Riven Earth, you can should be able to play quite recklessly. If you think the setup makes it such that running Superiors actually slows you down, I'd appreciate something to compare with.

You're right that with the build I ran, a major part of the damage comes from EBVAS and the two Norn shouts, but Lightning Orb / Chain Lightning is still an integral part of the gameplay and very important in spiking down Flowstones / Burning Spirits / Summit healers. I realized just as much when I did Blood Washes Blood the other day and had to give up a spell for Volfen Blessing (I chose Chain Lightning, still felt hampered).

The game doesn't come down to who can kill the other first very often, but it does happen: e.g. Burning Forest in Sacnoth Valley. If you can hold against Borguus Blisterbark + his patrol of Burning Spirits indefinitely, I'd be interested in seeing how you do it (it should be possible with human teams with two Ether Prots maintaining Protective Bond on all 8 players, but I can't see anything else).

It may be possible that sometimes I wipe because my teams have -75 HP collectively, but if that happens too often I don't salvage the Superior runes off, re-equip with Minors and try again, I look critically at my teambuild and try to improve it.

@kanus - I still think the Superiors on defensive characters aren't worth it. Yes you heal more, but overhealing does no good. If someone has just taken 100 damage, healing for 120 or 130 changes nothing, and hence why not stick with Minors?

Here's what Div wrote over at the Monk subforum, I largely agree (except the Duncan part):

@Mr. Emu - the consensus I think is that there is no consensus. Run what you want to run. If minor runes have always worked for you, then by all means, use them. What works for you is the best for you, after all. Well first, what do you consider defensive character in this case? I barely ever use defensive heroes. I usually use ritualists or necros with some defensive skills but the superiors are used on an offensive attribute...

But let's take a look at those "defensive characters" :

Woh healer or Woh/Prot hybrid : Using a sup won't overheal since the bonus apply only when the target is under 50% which is roughly 250 health which is about the same amount as a 16 healing prayers woh heal. That's actually a point that favor the usage of the sup rune.

ER proter (Heroes can run it pretty fine) : This build needs a sup energy storage when used on a Hero since they can't use glyph of swiftness properly so you want that ER to last as long as you want for the times he cast it without the glyph (which is about half the time).

Aside from these 2 defensive builds, I don't see other builds that could be useful on heroes.

Edit : The only defensive Hero bar that doesn't really get any benefit from a superior is an interrupt mesmer with tease, cry of frustration and more interrupts. Very useful in Frostmaw's dungeon.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

16 Sep 2009 at 02:10 - 73

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

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If you think the setup makes it such that running Superiors actually slows you down, I'd appreciate something to compare with.

And does it make you finish it faster?

Quote: Borguus and his buddies is an example of "kill them before they kill you", because against them you will die eventually.

Extra armor has nothing to do with whether or not you run the Superior rune.

The game doesn't come down to who can kill the other first very often, but it does happen: e.g. Burning Forest in Sacnoth Valley. If you can hold against Borguus Blisterbark + his patrol of Burning Spirits indefinitely, I'd be interested in seeing how you do it (it should be possible with human teams with two Ether Prots maintaining Protective Bond on all 8 players, but I can't see anything else). Borguus and his bunch is either "party made a mistake like aggroing his patrol while fighting someone else and they spike a number of the team or they die" - one way or the other the fight ends fast. Actually it's a case where more health and/or armor will help.

The only fights that drag out, in my experience, are against mobs that have competent healers and protection and/or can rez. There the most important aspect seems to be resource management and the ability to spike an enemy.

It may be possible that sometimes I wipe because my teams have -75 HP collectively, but if that happens too often I don't salvage the Superior runes off, re-equip with Minors and try again, I look critically at my teambuild and try to improve it. It is a shame we can't use 8 heroes. I think if you could design the 8 builds of your team you would see that extra damage of a superior rune isn't worth over +75 hp or higher armor at the same plateau of health.

But as I said before, in a h/h team, where generally henchmen contribute in the offence is quite low, superiors make more sense for the damage dealers, since they are dealing a larger fraction of the damage compared to 2p +6 heroes or higher number of players teams.

Additionally, once a hero or an henchmen starts to get DP it is quite easy for it to get more and more. Again, on h/h this isn't as noticeable due to the fact higher health heroes only mean the AI will focus more and more on henchmen.

So I'm saying that in some h/h teams superior might make sense.

In Discords I don't think so, even though I don't see any problems on running superior on the MB, due to the nature minions scale. On the other hand if the minions are lower level doesn't make that huge of a difference.

I don't think it is worthwhile because the relevant damage skill the discord team has is discord. Basically the team can be reduced to the player and the 3 necros and still kill.

A discord team is basically a defensive team with spike kills, designed to survive to a huge amount of pressure. Increasing the health of the necro trio and of the player (that will generally deal much more damage than any henchmen, being a caller or otherwise) to keep the spike intact is the number 1 priority.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

17 Sep 2009 at 01:50 - 74

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And does it make you finish it faster?

If you don't think so, I'd appreciate something to compare with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel Borguus and his bunch is either "party made a mistake like aggroing his patrol while fighting someone else and they spike a number of the team or they die" - one way or the other the fight ends fast. Actually it's a case where more health and/or armor will help.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

It is a shame we can't use 8 heroes. I think if you could design the 8 builds of your team you would see that extra damage of a superior rune isn't worth over +75 hp or higher armor at the same plateau of health.

But as I said before, in a h/h team, where generally henchmen contribute in the offence is quite low, superiors make more sense for the damage dealers, since they are dealing a larger fraction of the damage compared to 2p +6 heroes or higher number of players teams.

Additionally, once a hero or an henchmen starts to get DP it is quite easy for it to get more and more. Again, on h/h this isn't as noticeable due to the fact higher health heroes only mean the AI will focus more and more on henchmen. I doubt it, since I have used 7 heroes before and didn't feel anything.

If you H/H and use Superiors to add more damage to your team, why can't you do the same when you 2-man? What's the difference? Sure with 2-man you got your ally's heroes to help you deal damage with so you can get away with less damage on your side, but it's still less damage.

So what if the AI focuses on henchmen instead of heroes? Why does that matter? Why should I want the AI to do that? I've had the AI focus on me before, and I didn't feel anything in particular.

@kanuks - it's a good point, I didn't think of it that way. Come to think of it the only heroes I currently have not equipped with Superiors are my three Monks, who these days are pretty much locked into Smiting. Which might make them better off with Superior Smiting runes, but then I can't be bothered salvaging and re-equipping every time I switch Monks to HB or whatever (rare though, admittedly).

I still think on a pure Monk-based healer (HB, WoH, whatever) you don't want the Superior, don't understand your argument though.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

19 Sep 2009 at 17:48 - 75

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

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If you don't think so, I'd appreciate something to compare with.

That is quite easy - run discord with sups and without them. Do a few areas and see if there is any significant difference in speed.

Quote: Borguus and his buddies is an example of "kill them before they kill you", because against them you will die eventually. If I keep them shut down, I wont.

Extra armor has nothing to do with whether or not you run the Superior rune. If I use a sup rune I'll have less life compared to someone without it. Now lets say you a want a health of around 500~525. You will have to use + health runes or weapons. Someone else can use some of those slots for +armor.

Quote: Depends on setup.GDW on pets/AoE physicals like rangers, YMLAD, EVAS, Earth shaker warrior knocking them down, Discord necro with wards and maelstrom, Daze from BHA or Stunning strike and then epidemic, cry of frustration on a para or 2, etc. I don't keep them shut indefinitely because after a few secs they are death. The only instances I get wiped vs him is if my party is already taking in 3-4 or so flowstone elementals (again, I generally don't play h/h but 2p+6h).

I doubt it, since I have used 7 heroes before and didn't feel anything.

If you H/H and use Superiors to add more damage to your team, why can't you do the same when you 2-man? What's the difference? Sure with 2-man you got your ally's heroes to help you deal damage with so you can get away with less damage on your side, but it's still less damage.

So what if the AI focuses on henchmen instead of heroes? Why does that matter? Why should I want the AI to do that? I've had the AI focus on me before, and I didn't feel anything in particular. Again I think its play style. I like to go in while chatting, and if I aggro 2-3 mobs by accident, well shit happens and still kill them, like when yesterday on frostmaws hm, minions or my pet aggroed 2 mobs of drakes, 1 of golems and some wurm pack and well we ended with 3 standing but they were dead.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

19 Sep 2009 at 19:28 - 76

Originally Posted by Improvavel

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That is quite easy - run discord with sups and without them. Do a few areas and see if there is any significant difference in speed.

If I keep them shut down, I wont.

If I use a sup rune I'll have less life compared to someone without it. Now lets say you a want a health of around 500~525. You will have to use + health runes or weapons. Someone else can use some of those slots for +armor.

Again I think its play style. I like to go in while chatting, and if I aggro 2-3 mobs by accident, well shit happens and still kill them, like when yesterday on frostmaws hm, minions or my pet aggroed 2 mobs of drakes, 1 of golems and some wurm pack and well we ended with 3 standing but they were dead. How do you keep Blitzer and his group shut down? I'm just curious because I usually beat him by wiping once and finishing him after.

Also, if you aggro'd 2 groups of drakes in frostmaw then that means you took a weird and long path because the fastest path doesn't involves any drakes (i'm not counting level 1 because groups have only 3 drakes and you can basically aggro everything and not wipe using superiors).

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

20 Sep 2009 at 11:55 - 77

Originally Posted by kanuks View Post

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How do you keep Blitzer and his group shut down? I'm just curious because I usually beat him by wiping once and finishing him after.

Also, if you aggro'd 2 groups of drakes in frostmaw then that means you took a weird and long path because the fastest path doesn't involves any drakes (i'm not counting level 1 because groups have only 3 drakes and you can basically aggro everything and not wipe using superiors). lvl 2 after the 2nd beacon (counting the starting one), you have that door opening and you can see a patrol of drakes and ice golems. While we were fighting the drakes some minions (or my pet) got locked on the golems that were on the right and somehow aggroed nearby drakes that are on the right path. So it became a nice chaotic fight between some 10-12 drakes, 6 or so golems + wurms

I guess I could have pulled (sometimes I do), but the good of PvE is that you can be lazy and it is also quite fun being in a big chaotic fight.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

21 Sep 2009 at 00:02 - 78

Originally Posted by Improvavel

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Depends on setup.GDW on pets/AoE physicals like rangers, YMLAD, EVAS, Earth shaker warrior knocking them down, Discord necro with wards and maelstrom, Daze from BHA or Stunning strike and then epidemic, cry of frustration on a para or 2, etc. I don't keep them shut indefinitely because after a few secs they are death. The only instances I get wiped vs him is if my party is already taking in 3-4 or so flowstone elementals (again, I generally don't play h/h but 2p+6h).

lvl 2 after the 2nd beacon (counting the starting one), you have that door opening and you can see a patrol of drakes and ice golems. While we were fighting the drakes some minions (or my pet) got locked on the golems that were on the right and somehow aggroed nearby drakes that are on the right path. So it became a nice chaotic fight between some 10-12 drakes, 6 or so golems + wurms

I guess I could have pulled (sometimes I do), but the good of PvE is that you can be lazy and it is also quite fun being in a big chaotic fight. Yeah I guess that 2 players 6 heroes is very different than 1 player 3 heroes and 4 henchies. 6 PVE skills rocks too. I don't think that the strategy you mentionned would work against Blitz with H/H though, unless you dedicate all 3 heroes to shutdown that one group.

Cobalt

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/W

27 Sep 2009 at 20:27 - 79

If your MM is at 16 death you can always switch out jagged bones for flesh golem and get a level 29 uber tank with masochism.