Just another style of Imbagon

Michael von Inferno

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Aug 2009

Farmer's Union [CASH]

P/W

Hey all,
I'd like to start with this: I hope that the build I'd like to present here has not already been presented by somebody else. In that case, please, forgive me.
Anyway, the build looks like this:
12+3+1 Leadership
12+1 Spear mastery
3+1 Command
(sometimes u can drop from spear mastery to get better command, I usually do that when i want to take skills as Stand your ground or others.)
1: Soldier's Fury (elite) 2: Save Yourselves 3: There's Nothing to Fear
4: They're on Fire 5: Anthem of Flame 6: Burning Refrain 7: Blazing Finale
8: optional, depends on situation, area etc.

Useful is one meele in team. With heroes and henchies its easy to keep up Burning ref., because they usually stick close to u. In human party its best to echo them shortly before battle, after battle its not so easy to keep up 6 before players are usually running somewhere else, making it hard to shout/chant them. One important thing is also not to use this build against foes who cannot be set on fire, for example destroyers.
I hope u'll like it atleast a bit
Cya and have a good time with your para

zelgadissan

zelgadissan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2008

The Warrior Priests [WP]

Me/Rt

Since you're going to be the only one without retarded amounts of armor, why run an imbagon without a maxable shield? Also, why use 13 Spear in your primary setup without a single spear attack?

Honestly it seems like you were bringing They're on Fire for Soldier's Fury, but then you decided to try to make it useful and devoted the rest of your build to it. Your party should always have +100 armor so the reduction is often pointless (not to mention you have TNTF), and if you really want to make sure ToF is working, synergize with your team for a SF ele or something. Don't eat up your entire build just to work with a single skill.

Grim Aragorn

Grim Aragorn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

A/

i saw 16 leadership, then i stopped reading

Michael von Inferno

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Aug 2009

Farmer's Union [CASH]

P/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by zelgadissan View Post
Since you're going to be the only one without retarded amounts of armor, why run an imbagon without a maxable shield? Also, why use 13 Spear in your primary setup without a single spear attack?
Like I've said, u can drop from spear mastery and put to command or motivation to max your shield.

Quote: Originally Posted by zelgadissan View Post
Honestly it seems like you were bringing They're on Fire for Soldier's Fury, but then you decided to try to make it useful and devoted the rest of your build to it. Your party should always have +100 armor so the reduction is often pointless (not to mention you have TNTF), and if you really want to make sure ToF is working, synergize with your team for a SF ele or something. Don't eat up your entire build just to work with a single skill. If I'd need something to cover Soldier's fury, i'd bring Can't touch this. Lower price, longer duration... +37% protection from burning foes seems pretty good to me, monks dont have to do much with this protection.

No matter how many times you say it , Agg Ref is not the best and will never be. Soldiers fury solves many problems and doesnt leave you on almost perma -20 armor wich is like "Hey ! spike the hell out of me , im the lowest AL with SY up !" . Any useful shout can mantain SFury and add support to the team (yes , SY and more ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight View Post
I prefer aggressive refrain and always will. I can upkeep it with tntf which is actually a useful skill which is good to bring for everyone. TNTF is but the rest of your entire bar is devoted to 1 skill.

86 armor = "spike me"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
TNTF is but the rest of your entire bar is devoted to 1 skill. Focused Anger (and FGJ! as an option) is an "entire bar"? O_O
... im the lowest AL with SY up . Reading ftw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Picuso View Post
Focused Anger (and FGJ! as an option) is an "entire bar"? O_O Option ? yeah because without FGJ you are gonna keep 100% of the time SY up. Focused anger , Agg refrain , FGJ , SY and Enduring Harmony if you are wise . In my town those are 5 skills , not sure in yours and i dont think you can do a lot of things with the rest of the slots but there you go , maybe not "entire bar" but most of it .
You can say the same about Godmode Wars. Invalid argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
Option ? yeah because without FGJ you are gonna keep 100% of the time SY up. Focused anger , Agg refrain , FGJ , SY and Enduring Harmony if you are wise . In my town those are 5 skills , not sure in yours and i dont think you can do a lot of things with the rest of the slots but there you go , maybe not "entire bar" but most of it . FA, AR and SY are enough. FGJ if you really need SY 100% up. I don't know why would you take Enduring with FA + FGJ (FGJ is used only to cover FA recharge)

I started using FGJ too, but 15 seconds is not a "nightmare" without extra adrenaline. (And you can time your last SY to cover some more seconds).
Argument ? invalid word dude. Im not arguing about SY here nor Godmode wars , you are getting it wrong. Read OP , keywords "another style"


Quote: Originally Posted by Picuso View Post
FA, AR and SY are enough. FGJ if you really need SY 100% up. I don't know why would you take Enduring with FA + FGJ (FGJ is used only to cover FA recharge) You would if adren gain wasnt capped or bugged ( better said ) but anyway , like i said before , that is offtopic , has nothing to do with this thread.

There are no useful shouts that can maintain Soldier's Fury without being redundant and requiring an outside source to make them useful. Soldier's Fury works out to 5 extra attacks a minute over Aggressive Refrain when you factor in the time you take to recast Soldier's Fury, with significantly less adrenaline coming in compared to Focused Anger.

The Cracked Armor argument only comes into play when using Hero/Hench in Cantha because the AI is so terrible condition removal. Even then the massive amounts of defense provided by the Paragon are still enough to overcome that issue.

Also, Focused Anger and "For Great Justice!" fuel offense as well. You will not be able to hit your energy attack skills with as much frequency without those skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood
It doesn't take much for one of the seven other party members to remove the cracked armor from you once every what? 26 seconds @16Leadership. That's still 5 energy that could be put to better use elsewheres. Be it a Shield of Absorption, a 200+ point Word of Healing, there are always better things to do with 5 energy then remove Cracked Armor from a Paragon.

MercenaryKnight

MercenaryKnight

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2006

Wolf of Shadows [WoS]

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae
View Post
No matter how many times you say it , Agg Ref is not the best and will never be. Soldiers fury solves many problems and doesnt leave you on almost perma -20 armor wich is like "Hey ! spike the hell out of me , im the lowest AL with SY up !" . Any useful shout can mantain SFury and add support to the team (yes , SY and more ).


TNTF is but the rest of your entire bar is devoted to 1 skill.


Dont be mistaken , saying imbagon is the best alternative for a P ever is a lie . Imbagon is a "always good , and at least not bad" set up for the only P in the group but is far far from being the best alternative to a P in all cases.

Talking about that build .... yeah 16 leadership is def not worth , not at all . Soldier's fury requires a shout to be on you at all times. Most of which you use will be useless. Their on fire is pretty much useless as well as can't touch this. So your wasting that skill right there just for your own ias.

With my regular imbagon bar I can buff any damage characters with my vanguard ward. I can also do decent amount of damage with my spear attacks.

Even with soldier's fury your still the "lowest al class". Even if it's 20 more armor it won't matter much to the real points that matter. A lot of the fatal damage comes from skills that won't be effected by al.

People keep trying to prove soldier's fury is better. Yet most of the people still fight back to say the original is better. There will always be a few people on soldier's fury side.

If none of them are willing to open their minds to see things without a bias then this thread is doomed to be closed. Be open to both sides or don't bother debating which is better. The only way for it to be solved is to have one side see the other is better.

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
There are no useful shouts that can maintain Soldier's Fury without being redundant and requiring an outside source to make them useful. Soldier's Fury works out to 5 extra attacks a minute over Aggressive Refrain when you factor in the time you take to recast Soldier's Fury, with significantly less adrenaline coming in compared to Focused Anger.
False. Redundant and an outside source to make them useful ? lol sorry for trying to SYNC with my team while playing a support class . Yes , you know im talking about SYG , its great and works great. Remember that if you have TNTF on your bar ( cough*always*cough ) you only have to cover about 12-8 secs to keep SFury working therefore ,theres no valid argument in "mantaining" SFury being an issue. If someone cant mantain Sfury working 100% of the time , please delete your paragon.

Quote: Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post The Cracked Armor argument only comes into play when using Hero/Hench in Cantha because the AI is so terrible condition removal. Even then the massive amounts of defense provided by the Paragon are still enough to overcome that issue. Its not an argument , its an issue no matter what you say and if you get hit in HM by 2-3 good damage spells in 1 sec , hell you well see the diff in those 20 less armor.

Quote: Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post Also, Focused Anger and "For Great Justice!" fuel offense as well. You will not be able to hit your energy attack skills with as much frequency without those skills. The thing is that this thread is about another style of imbagon , if you are gonna come selling FAnger , FGJ and Agg Ref + SY this is not your place , that is the same imbagon we all know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
That's still 5 energy that could be put to better use elsewheres. Be it a Shield of Absorption, a 200+ point Word of Healing, there are always better things to do with 5 energy then remove Cracked Armor from a Paragon. Yea, and Calista post its assuming the imbagon has no GFTE or anything else and theres no other P or Shouter in the party that can make Cracked Armor reapply every 5-10 sec. Yes , tell your monk/healer not to remove the condition , i dare you ... fair enough.

Seriously , try to stick to "another style" of Imbagon or Paragon with Sy or whatever but dont tell a story we already read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight View Post
If none of them are willing to open their minds to see things without a bias then this thread is doomed to be closed. Be open to both sides or don't bother debating which is better. The only way for it to be solved is to have one side see the other is better. Good recomendation wich i suggest you to follow. Imagine for 1 sec that Agg ref , focused anger and FGJ dont exist and you have to make another style of imbagon that is not better , not worse , just different .... please dont come up with the same story over and over ....

Reverend Dr

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

Drunken Master.

-only 1 skill slot required

-no stopping to recast anthem/soldiers ever

-no cracked armor

-costs only 5 energy every 90 seconds

Hell I use this on my paragon sober simply because I can't stand stopping to recast shit every 10-30 seconds and even sober it is still not difficult to keep SY up 100%.

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight View Post
Playing with -20 armor doesn't suddenly mean you are going to die when you go out even in the hardest of areas. You still have healers, and most likely if you have heroes will have a protective spirit for the huge damage dealers (most of which ignore armor).
You are guessing centurions armor right ? because if you play with anything else your general armor will be 60 ( 80-20 ) + 16 = 76 . Not good , def not good if you get spiked or attacked while low HP. Healer prots react , dont prevent , they are IA , you will have to micro it .

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight View Post
I generally don't notice much if any difference with -20 armor. Because a simple protective spirit on my hero will basically make most of the lethal damage (that'd still be near lethal with 20 more armor) easier to manage.
Yeah and frenzy is great but you better dont use it under attack . Like ractoh say , those 5 energy can be used for a lot of things instead removing/preventing damage on you because you didnt use SFury or Drunken Master.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight View Post Stand your ground is only for you. Save yourselves is boosting all your allies armor. So your slotting stand your ground only for your own ias again. Wrong , read skill description before writing , its so easy. SYG and SY are for party members , not allies .

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight View Post
Yes every paragon does bring tntf, but the case is your still slotting stand your ground to keep up your ias. Classic Imbagon has free slots and no one is gonna argue what you use in them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight View Post
I think instead of arguing about the soldier's fury skill set maybe Tenebrae could post your entire soldier's fury based imbagon build and then we can compare it to the original. Kind of hard to debate each build if the main argument on soldier's fury doesn't have a set build up to find problems or improvements. So you realise you were arguing against something that wasnt even there just because your blind faith on classic imbagon right ?. The thing is that this is not FAnger vs SFury , its another style of imbagon . The OP choose Sfury as the elite , not me , but you can try a diff aproach instead trying to bring down any build someone shares.
And btw , i dont play as an imbagon , i play as a P with SY

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Sincerely I'm not that sure if the AI can tell the armor difference that well.

I've never seen mobs suddenly bypass the front line to whack my imbagon just because I've cracked armor and/or the front line is under SY!

Actually what I see is the mobs bypass the frontline, and me with my cracked armor and lack of SY!, to go after some caster.

The mobs aggro deciding factor seems to be current health and if its caster profession or not.

Picuso

Picuso

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

far far away

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
Wrong , read skill description before writing , its so easy. SYG and SY are for party members , not allies . If you are keeping SY 100% up (or 85-90%), SYG does nothing to your party members. Only gives you some armor and keep your IAS up.

laksa and curry

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr View Post
Drunken Master.

-only 1 skill slot required

-no stopping to recast anthem/soldiers ever

-no cracked armor

-costs only 5 energy every 90 seconds

Hell I use this on my paragon sober simply because I can't stand stopping to recast shit every 10-30 seconds and even sober it is still not difficult to keep SY up 100%. Me too. Not sure its the best way but I recently changed my IAS to drunkard master. 15%IAS or 25% does not make that much of a difference.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr View Post
Drunken Master.
I can't justify losing "There's Nothing To Fear!", "Save Yourselves!" or Ebon Battle Standard of Honor for a skill that performs worse than other IAS options. By worse I mean outputs less damage, slower adrenaline gain, theoretical counters as it is a stance, and uses a PvE skill slot. If people will argue that Cracked Armor from Aggressive Refrain is an issue then I will argue stance removal against Drunken Master as both only come into play when the Paragon is under attack. I would argue the frequency of my deaths when playing Paragon as a direct result of pressure the monks couldn't deal with are about as frequent as dealing with enemies using stance removal.

In any case, swapping the headpiece on the initial Aggressive Refrain cast creates a large enough window to hit "There's Nothing To Fear!" shortly after it recharges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
The mobs aggro deciding factor seems to be current health and if its caster profession or not.
Precisely why an Order hero and henchmen are attacked first over the player and their heroes because we have Survivor runes, +health mods on our weapon/shield, and the vigor rune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen Explain to me how this is different from taking anthem of flame on a bar with aggressive refrain. Personally I don't use Anthem of Flame and never have when running "Save Yourselves!". The only skill I consider worth interrupting the attack process is Ebon Battle Standard of Honor for obvious reasons.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tenebrae False. Redundant and an outside source to make them useful ? lol sorry for trying to SYNC with my team while playing a support class . Yes , you know im talking about SYG , its great and works great. Remember that if you have TNTF on your bar ( cough*always*cough ) you only have to cover about 12-8 secs to keep SFury working therefore ,theres no valid argument in "mantaining" SFury being an issue. If someone cant mantain Sfury working 100% of the time , please delete your paragon. "They're On Fire!" or "Stand Your Ground!" are the two options that everyone latches onto and yes I was assuming that was what a Soldier's Fury variant would use. They're redundant, you have "Save Yourselves!" and "They're On Fire!" requires an outside source of burning, typically an Elementalist running Searing Flames which means they're not running Mind Blast or Ether Renewal which in turn means we're wasting an entire party slot (read, 8 skill slots) for something we don't even need. A better option to using "Stand Your Ground!" would be another Paragon with Motivation spec and Purifying Finale since it will also do more than keep your IAS working; using Aggressive Refrain that is.

You could argue that Blazing Finale makes "They're On Fire!" work but that skill best works on a melee, and any melee I use are generally Earth Shaker Warriors. As is the nature of that bar, anything it locks on the ground can't deal any damage anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae
Its not an argument , its an issue no matter what you say and if you get hit in HM by 2-3 good damage spells in 1 sec , hell you well see the diff in those 20 less armor. If I'm running hero/hench I pull out my bow when I pull while all of the AI runs in ahead of me so all of the spells and attacks target them, with Dark Fury and Focused Anger/"For Great Justice!" this means I will have at the very least a halfway full "Save Yourselves!". Swapping immediately to spear/shield and C + Spacing whatever melee are now running in at AI, building a full "Save Yourselves!" shortly after combat begins. I can now call a target for the AI to attack while casually throwing my spear at whatever I want while I quarterstep into range of the casters or continue to attack the melee depending on my positioning in proportion to the rest of the group. Naturally if I'm concerned about spell damage I have to consider spreading out as to avoid any AoE hits.

If I'm playing with people the monks will know how to keep me alive quite well.

We have monks in the group, if they have energy no one should be dying. As flawed as the AI may be they will cast and cast until they no longer can. I will die because of poor AI design with condition removal, not because of Aggressive Refrain. One player with -20 AL + higher/100% "Save Yourselves!" uptime vs. longer periods of time where seven other players don't have +100 AL and less damage from the Paragon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae
Yea, and Calista post its assuming the imbagon has no GFTE or anything else and theres no other P or Shouter in the party that can make Cracked Armor reapply every 5-10 sec. Yes , tell your monk/healer not to remove the condition , i dare you ... fair enough. Monks are better off not being the ones removing conditions in PvE. I've linked my arguments before on the matter. There are much better things they could be doing with the energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae
Seriously , try to stick to "another style" of Imbagon or Paragon with Sy or whatever but dont tell a story we already read. If someone is going to suggest an alternative I'm going to inform that person what they may not have considered regarding the community accepted norm. In this case, Soldier's Fury. As such I and others are going to continue to argue the pros and cons and let everyone come to their own conclusion about which would be better suited for their play style. Comments may seem rather off-topic at times but their words need to be taken into consideration.

Bobby2

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

AR complaints make me so sad. People don't run curse necs anymore?

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
"They're On Fire!" or "Stand Your Ground!" are the two options that everyone latches onto and yes I was assuming that was what a Soldier's Fury variant would use.
And yet , they are good , no matter what you say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
They're redundant, you have "Save Yourselves!" and "They're On Fire!" requires an outside source of burning, typically an Elementalist running Searing Flames which means they're not running Mind Blast or Ether Renewal which in turn means we're wasting an entire party slot (read, 8 skill slots) for something we don't even need.
You are talking like you were stating facts and you are very far from that.
1- No , they are not redundant.
2- "Typically" doesnt mean always and you cant lean on that to state something like the opposite to...
3- An Ele not running Mind Blast or Ether Renewal =\= Wasted slot
4- "Need" is a very personal matter , for example i dont think you need SY up 100% , not even 50% because like i said before , i dont play as an imbagon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
A better option to using "Stand Your Ground!" would be another Paragon with Motivation spec and Purifying Finale since it will also do more than keep your IAS working; using Aggressive Refrain that is.
Theres only a 10-8 secs lapse to keep SFury working 100% , there are so many useful shouts or chants that can be used that im not even going to bother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post Bla bla bla H/H playing stuff and whatever ....
Naturally if I'm concerned about spell damage I have to consider spreading out as to avoid any AoE hits.
If I'm playing with people the monks will know how to keep me alive quite well. No one said that having cracked armor = dying , at least not me , but having cracked armor almost all the time ( if you slot GFTE and something else ) or making the AI remove it its an issue. Wont kill you ofc , but is definetly not good , and that is a fact .

Quote: The original Imbagon build has zero downtime spent keeping IAS up, zero downtime in SY spamming, zero downtime in maintaining +100% Adrenaline, and provides decent damage and a party-wide buff at the same time.

SFury may be maintainable, and there may be useful shouts and chants to maintain it, but the issue isn't can it be done, but is it a good build while doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
We have monks in the group, if they have energy no one should be dying. As flawed as the AI may be they will cast and cast until they no longer can. I will die because of poor AI design with condition removal, not because of Aggressive Refrain. See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
One player with -20 AL + higher/100% "Save Yourselves!" uptime vs. longer periods of time where seven other players don't have +100 AL and less damage from the Paragon. The thing is that diff between a Sfury + SYG paragon is 44 armor about 12-15 sec and 20 the rest of the time. 100% is great , hell like having an eternal E/Mo spamming heal party while your prot does the rest but .... is it really needed ? do we REALLY NEED SY! 100% of the time ? ..... not even 50% of the time imo. If the answer is "yes" , you must be doing something really wrong but im not gonna argue here if SY should be up 100% or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
If someone is going to suggest an alternative I'm going to inform that person what they may not have considered regarding the community accepted norm. In this case, Soldier's Fury. As such I and others are going to continue to argue the pros and cons and let everyone come to their own conclusion about which would be better suited for their play style. Comments may seem rather off-topic at times but their words need to be taken into consideration. Comments that are like "nah , that sux and classic imbagon is better" but said with diff words shouldnt be taken into consideration. This is a thread to make an alternative version , not to destroy builds that ppl try to make or show. Comments that are constantly telling ppl to leave the idea of making an alternative are so far from being constructive that tend to be annoying.

Like i said before , think before posting , just think that Fanger and Agg refrain dont exist .... just a little imagination to make some suitable team configuration or build that could give some good results instead of arguing with ppl that give ideas .

MisterB

MisterB

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2005

Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy

[ban]

W/

If I'm not mistaken, one of the primary goals of the "Imbagon" build design is maintaining SY! 100% or as close to that as possible. If you are discarding that as a goal, then it's not an Imbagon. It's a different build.

An ele running Searing Flames is not very effective in Hard mode.

ToF is redundant with both SY and TNtF in play. The only thing it will do is reduce armor-ignoring damage further. SYG will only protect the user. That makes it redundant, because the backline can prot or heal. If you don't need SY, then why bring ToF? Because you want Soldier's Fury.

Alternative builds are fine, but labeling them as Imbagon invites comparison and criticism. Call it a Soldier's Fury build, or something else besides Imbagon, and it's just a Paragon build.

Axel Zinfandel

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

Am I the only one who rarely gets attacked using AR+FA? enemies ussually aren't smart enough to realize that you're the only one without retarded armor.

And even if they do, you have high enough armor to last pretty long, so stop mashing the SY button, let it end and let some of the other people gain aggro.
They are good when the builds support them.

"Save Yourselves!" plus any party wide armour boost is bad, simply because that other armour boosting skill will literally do nothing.

"They're on Fire!" is good, but only when you're dealing with damage that is a threat to a constant SY and a half-up TNTF...which isn't very much.

Quote:
You are talking like you were stating facts and you are very far from that.
1- No , they are not redundant.
2- "Typically" doesnt mean always and you cant lean on that to state something like the opposite to...
3- An Ele not running Mind Blast or Ether Renewal =\= Wasted slot
4- "Need" is a very personal matter , for example i dont think you need SY up 100% , not even 50% because like i said before , i dont play as an imbagon
1) SY reduces damage by 83%, TNTF makes that damage even more piddly. SYG literally does nothing for your party, because of armour stacking limits, and ToF is redundant because you have a ridiculous amount of damage reduction already.

3) Either way, Searing Flames in hard mode is a poor choice of Elite skill.

4) That's a dumb argument. An Imbagon is a SY! Paragon. If you don't want to run an Imbagon, that's perfectly fine, but don't argue that a build doesn't need to do what its entire intent is. It's like trying to make a good Healing build and throwing in Smiting skills because you don't need to be healing 100% of the time. Make a Smite/Healer hybrid, we don't care, just don't go telling someone who wants a Healing build that he should go hybrid instead.

Quote:
Theres only a 10-8 secs lapse to keep SFury working 100% , there are so many useful shouts or chants that can be used that im not even going to bother.
No one said that having cracked armor = dying , at least not me , but having cracked armor almost all the time ( if you slot GFTE and something else ) or making the AI remove it its an issue. Wont kill you ofc , but is definetly not good , and that is a fact .

See above. Which is why Racway ignores targeted condition removal altogether.

Quote:
The thing is that diff between a Sfury + SYG paragon is 44 armor about 12-15 sec and 20 the rest of the time. 100% is great , hell like having an eternal E/Mo spamming heal party while your prot does the rest but .... is it really needed ? do we REALLY NEED SY! 100% of the time ? ..... not even 50% of the time imo. If the answer is "yes" , you must be doing something really wrong but im not gonna argue here if SY should be up 100% or not. An Imbagon is a build that is designed to spam SY.

Do you need SY up 100% of the time? Yes, when the rest of your party is built with the expectation that it will be up all the time.

Quote:
Comments that are like "nah , that sux and classic imbagon is better" but said with diff words shouldnt be taken into consideration. This is a thread to make an alternative version , not to destroy builds that ppl try to make or show. Comments that are constantly telling ppl to leave the idea of making an alternative are so far from being constructive that tend to be annoying. Alternatives need to be comparable to be worth considering. You can run the build if you want to, and enjoy it just fine.

But if you want other people to consider using it, you're going to have to give some good reasons why.

Axel Zinfandel

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

True Facts:

AR+FA maintains SY! better, with less offense

SF Maintains SY! less then perfect, with more offense.


It should be mention that in the long run, Soldier's Fury imbagon mathamatically has more adrenaline gain in the long term. However since battles in PvE normally aren't "long term", the fact is irrelevant.

Soldier's Fury is probably the better choice if you have a good enough rank for SY! There's definitely a sweet spot in allegiance rank there in that Soldier's Fury will maintain SY! just efficient enough without being over effective, and taking away from the offensive capabilities

It's the same concept with energy management. If you're gaining too much energy, your build could probably be revised to gain just enough energy, but give you more benefits or skills

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusk_ View Post
They are good when the builds support them.

"Save Yourselves!" plus any party wide armour boost is bad, simply because that other armour boosting skill will literally do nothing.

"They're on Fire!" is good, but only when you're dealing with damage that is a threat to a constant SY and a half-up TNTF...which isn't very much.
They are just 2 skills that can be used and you are guessing 100% SY time wich doesnt happen with this build. SYG will add armor to you and SY does not , just because of that ( whatever you think its important or not ) is not redundant 100% .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusk_ View Post 1) SY reduces damage by 83%, TNTF makes that damage even more piddly. SYG literally does nothing for your party, because of armour stacking limits, and ToF is redundant because you have a ridiculous amount of damage reduction already.
If you have SY ! 100% of the time , TNTF is redundant . It only reduces an already reduced damage , only would work as a party heal and for reducing armor ignoring damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusk_ View Post 3) Either way, Searing Flames in hard mode is a poor choice of Elite skill.

4) That's a dumb argument. An Imbagon is a SY! Paragon. If you don't want to run an Imbagon, that's perfectly fine, but don't argue that a build doesn't need to do what its entire intent is. It's like trying to make a good Healing build and throwing in Smiting skills because you don't need to be healing 100% of the time. Make a Smite/Healer hybrid, we don't care, just don't go telling someone who wants a Healing build that he should go hybrid instead.
I dont care about eles , burning can come from other sources too and i didnt mention SFlames , rahctoh did.
If you define a Imbagon as a SY ! Paragon then this build is also an imbagon , its another style and theres NO unbreakable rule that says imbagon = 100% time SY! up . Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusk_ View Post
The original Imbagon build has zero downtime spent keeping IAS up, zero downtime in SY spamming, zero downtime in maintaining +100% Adrenaline, and provides decent damage and a party-wide buff at the same time.

SFury may be maintainable, and there may be useful shouts and chants to maintain it, but the issue isn't can it be done, but is it a good build while doing it. Like i said before , original imbagon doesnt matter , this thread is for a diff aproach , dont tell a story we already read and no , that "issue" doesnt exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusk_ View Post
An Imbagon is a build that is designed to spam SY.

Do you need SY up 100% of the time? Yes, when the rest of your party is built with the expectation that it will be up all the time. Rule not carved in stone. You need it 100% of the time ? no , unless you are doing something very wrong


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusk_ View Post
Alternatives need to be comparable to be worth considering. You can run the build if you want to, and enjoy it just fine.

But if you want other people to consider using it, you're going to have to give some good reasons why. And yet you are just trying to bring down things instead trying to make them better. Btw , you are wrong , im not the OP , i dont care. Just amazed on how ppl is unable to imagine for 1 sec that FA and Agg Ref dont exist and keep going offtopic instead making a constructive post.

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revelations View Post
HOWEVER (and this is a big however), those skills DO exist - so there is literally no point in running an inferior variant to them other than shits and giggles. Your argument about 'different style of imbagon' is completely irrelevant. Yes, it's a different style - but it's a different style that is inferior to the meta imbagon - that's what nearly everyone here is trying to tell you, and what you appear to be blatantly ignoring. Excuse me but .... are you on crack ? did you even bother to READ ? this thread is about that . Is about "playing" a game where classic imbagon doesnt exist and ppl try to make a diff approach. WHERE did I or ANYONE say that THIS or ANY other build is EQUAL or BETTER than the classic one ? WHERE did I or ANYONE else say WHAT ppl should use instead of classic imbagon ?.
You accusse me of ignoring things that i already stated to know about 4 or 5 times based on something that you just made up.
Like i said before ( about 3 or 4 times ) if you dont wanna "play" this game ( to go on with the OP purposal ) , feel free to leave. But if you are going to tell same story that WE ALL know , your posts will be just a totally pointless +1.

Seriously , go on thread topic or dont but stop being annoying ffs . just getting tired of answering the same sht over and over .....

MercenaryKnight

MercenaryKnight

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2006

Wolf of Shadows [WoS]

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
Excuse me but .... are you on crack ? did you even bother to READ ? this thread is about that . Is about "playing" a game where classic imbagon doesnt exist and ppl try to make a diff approach. WHERE did I or ANYONE say that THIS or ANY other build is EQUAL or BETTER than the classic one ? WHERE did I or ANYONE else say WHAT ppl should use instead of classic imbagon ?.
You accusse me of ignoring things that i already stated to know about 4 or 5 times based on something that you just made up.
Like i said before ( about 3 or 4 times ) if you dont wanna "play" this game ( to go on with the OP purposal ) , feel free to leave. But if you are going to tell same story that WE ALL know , your posts will be just a totally pointless +1.

Seriously , go on thread topic or dont but stop being annoying ffs . just getting tired of answering the same sht over and over ..... The point is the person posted the build for the public. So we are taking it a part and seeing if it is better to run. You have been attempting to argue about fa and ar not being real skills. So you were trying to defend soldier's fury.

We are trying to compare the build to the regular imbagon build. If you don't care about comparing them then don't bother talking in this thread.

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

N/

This is going nowhere.