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Originally Posted by fowlero
PvX not existing wouldn't change anything, since nearly everything on there comes from obs mode anyway.
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is pvx destroying the game?
Karate Jesus
Scythe O F Glory
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Originally Posted by Darth The Xx
PvX is a good source, no denying that. There is a REASON those builds are up there, simply because they are the (arguably) the best or close to it. People wouldn't rate the builds so highly if they sucked.
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Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by Scythe O F Glory
There's only about 20 people that actually are regular members of PvX, and they are all friends. So the build doesnt usually matter, just the person that made it. Their friends will 5-5-X anything for them. I've seen builds (made by non-regulars) get trashed, only to be made again by one of these regulars, and rated Great.
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EDIT: Apparently, the word for a Lady of the Night that rhymes with door gets RED ENGINE'd. Who knew?
snaek
standardized teambuilds existed long before pvx did i.e. pet/barrage. variations to pvx builds do exist, and if the party leader doesn't except your variation either hes bad or your bad. what really ruins pve is 1) broken skills and 2) broken hm mechanics limiting options.
pvp side of pvx is very slow to update. hardly affects anything other than helping random pve'rs trying to get into pvp without any help from an experienced pvp'r. hardly a bad thing.
pvp side of pvx is very slow to update. hardly affects anything other than helping random pve'rs trying to get into pvp without any help from an experienced pvp'r. hardly a bad thing.
Coverticus
I agree with Snaek in that the standardised build were certainly available before PvX and templates existed, you just had to work a little harder to create your build from your notes or spreadsheet with the skills and attibutes.
Unfortunately, with tools like PvX, whenever these are available to masses, it will be indeed used as gospel. The average player will more than likely look at PvX and see that a particular build is highly rated and therefore would (wrongly) assume that most of GW players are using it. Therefore he/she must.
The creativity of builds from players also suffers too because of this kinda tool - most do not have to think about it now. Grab the skills, load it, use it.
PvX though will never do one certain thing though - teach the player how to use the build.
To me, PvX is one part of lore that has made GW broken. In my own humble opinion, the worst aspect of GW now is that the average age mentality is now in single figures. Gone is the more "mature" attitude from early GW days.
As an example, my friend and I were sitting waiting in Gyala Hatchery for another friend to join us vanquishing Maishang Hills. So party of 7/8. Cue an assassin "LFG mission". Adds himself to us 3 times, which I decline each time. At this point "You f*****g retard".... "You need to learn how to play the game".... "Nooob"..."As.....e". To which I politely pointed out we were VQing and not missioning and, if he still had a problem in the way I/we played, he should take it up with the nearest available authorities.
It's that general attitude that has killed the game (mainly PUGs). No wonder so many people want 7 heroes.
Unfortunately, with tools like PvX, whenever these are available to masses, it will be indeed used as gospel. The average player will more than likely look at PvX and see that a particular build is highly rated and therefore would (wrongly) assume that most of GW players are using it. Therefore he/she must.
The creativity of builds from players also suffers too because of this kinda tool - most do not have to think about it now. Grab the skills, load it, use it.
PvX though will never do one certain thing though - teach the player how to use the build.
To me, PvX is one part of lore that has made GW broken. In my own humble opinion, the worst aspect of GW now is that the average age mentality is now in single figures. Gone is the more "mature" attitude from early GW days.
As an example, my friend and I were sitting waiting in Gyala Hatchery for another friend to join us vanquishing Maishang Hills. So party of 7/8. Cue an assassin "LFG mission". Adds himself to us 3 times, which I decline each time. At this point "You f*****g retard".... "You need to learn how to play the game".... "Nooob"..."As.....e". To which I politely pointed out we were VQing and not missioning and, if he still had a problem in the way I/we played, he should take it up with the nearest available authorities.
It's that general attitude that has killed the game (mainly PUGs). No wonder so many people want 7 heroes.
Lykan
Just ping it and then change it back.
Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by Terra Jim
To me, PvX is one part of lore that has made GW broken. In my own humble opinion, the worst aspect of GW now is that the average age mentality is now in single figures. Gone is the more "mature" attitude from early GW days.
As an example, my friend and I were sitting waiting in Gyala Hatchery for another friend to join us vanquishing Maishang Hills. So party of 7/8. Cue an assassin "LFG mission". Adds himself to us 3 times, which I decline each time. At this point "You f*****g retard".... "You need to learn how to play the game".... "Nooob"..."As.....e". To which I politely pointed out we were VQing and not missioning and, if he still had a problem in the way I/we played, he should take it up with the nearest available authorities. |
Teh [prefession]-zorz
Observe mode destroyed pvp.
Grumpy
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Originally Posted by Lykan
Just ping it and then change it back.
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The Juggernauot
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Originally Posted by gerlin
Why would you blame PvXwiki as the cause of the ingame mentality? PvXwiki is an incredible tool that i use to base buids on and customize them to my own liking. PvXwiki has nothing to do AT ALL with the fact that most people ingame act like 6 year olds and can only see black and white and don't have the common sense yet to develope the area grey where not standard builds exsist to actually work super.
The cancer that is destroying the game is the mentality of the people who play it. Nothing else can destroy a game. Also most of the time the people who act like little kids blame other stuff for their own incompetence. Just look at this forum, hundreds of people complain about the most dumb things that "destroy" the game but are mostly just random annoyance of the game. They wish for the game to be perfect and molded to their liking. Spoiled brats is what i would call them. |
Angel Killuminati
I guess looking at it from different perspectives having played the game from the very start I see both sides of the argument. For new players to the game in general it's great, and perhaps for new players to any aspect of the game - pvp, pve, running, farming, just so you have a basic idea of what's expected. It does get on peoples nerves though that what pvx writes is gospel and you need to run that build without any changes at all. For example, I recently got into an AB group, (I've maxed both alliance titles btw) and I was running a solo capping build, not the best for team play I know, (I wanted to cap shrines quickly while my team picked off the loose scraps,) but the leader demanded I change the build that takes shrines down in 3 seconds, to a longer build of AoE skills - so basically the second build wasn't built for team play either! I was quite mad and left. My point is that sometimes people don't appreciate creativity...EVEN THOUGH IT WAS BETTER.
From my own perspective, I don't use pvx for any of my heroes because when I bring them I like them to synergise with my character. A basic example being when I use my Elementalist using Searing Flames, I might bring Hayda with 'They're on fire' and 'glowing signet' for her energy management. I don't just stick to whatever pvx says, because it might not give me full potential with my team and the character I'm running. Sure you can play with any build and potentially do ok, but having a good think about things can make it 20, 40, 60% better etc.
I can see both sides of the argument having been in numerous situations myself so it's a hard call. As for pvx being erased, it won't happen, because copycat websites will be quickly created. You're always going to have a 'builds' website I'm sure.
From my own perspective, I don't use pvx for any of my heroes because when I bring them I like them to synergise with my character. A basic example being when I use my Elementalist using Searing Flames, I might bring Hayda with 'They're on fire' and 'glowing signet' for her energy management. I don't just stick to whatever pvx says, because it might not give me full potential with my team and the character I'm running. Sure you can play with any build and potentially do ok, but having a good think about things can make it 20, 40, 60% better etc.
I can see both sides of the argument having been in numerous situations myself so it's a hard call. As for pvx being erased, it won't happen, because copycat websites will be quickly created. You're always going to have a 'builds' website I'm sure.
![[MLM]Will Run](/static/static/../Img/avatar183550_1.gif){kind=avatar}
[MLM]Will Run
Posts 11, 12, 17 I'm in full agreement with.
moriz
people who thinks pvx is bad for the game, and then claim that their own "unique snowflake" builds are better, are the ones who don't realize that there's a human element in playing GW. execution of said build matters. if you have a build disadvantage, but is sufficiently stronger as a player than your opponent, then you will likely win. that doesn't mean your build is actually better though. case in point: my shove assassin build that i love to run around in low end pvp (AB primarily). it's utter crap compared to the standardized builds out there, but i can still win consistently with it, because i am consistently better than most of the players there.
and no, pvx doesn't add nor detract anything from the game. long before its existence, people were already running standardized builds. it's merely a convenient place to store those builds.
and no, pvx doesn't add nor detract anything from the game. long before its existence, people were already running standardized builds. it's merely a convenient place to store those builds.
Athrun Feya
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Originally Posted by Daesu
You'll be surprised, there are voters in pvx that would vote against a build or even trashed simply because they dont want it to be leaked out to the public.
If you think that the accepted builds are the best builds posted to pvx, think again. |
Once a good build is up, whether it is in userspace or the buildspace, it is indefinately publically available and BMs and Admins remove retarded votes. We do get a large number of user's who like to vandalise popular pages claiming they made it and noone else should use it, but nothing undo cant fix.
I'd say the builds are the optimum builds for a PuG group/less experienced group. For example, the absolute optimum build/tactics by experienced guilds for FoWSC will get you < 15 minutes, but a random PuG in ToA has no chance of running this, so a suitable build is posted instead. If anyone does want to go for that 15 minute run, they will just have to think for themselves a little and take friends or guildies - i think it is unreasonable to expect random groups to be able to perform quite that highly.
glacialphoenix
It's a handy resource, and it's good for giving people ideas for a build. You can use it well, or you can use it badly. You can take everything it has as the gospel truth, or you can look at what it offers and tweak that until you get the results you want.
It's not PvX's fault that so many people take it as the only thing that works. It's not PvX's fault that many people copy builds off it mindlessly because they are told to, and then proceed to play said builds badly. That's the player's fault. If I don't know anything about the class, I'd go look for ideas before trying to slap a build together, and I'd probably take a look at the stuff in PvX, because it's a database of builds.
I would not take the whole thing as the only viable bar, as so many PUGs are doing. That's an issue with mentality. I think PvX made it such that people didn't have to go sit down and think hard over their builds, which was both good and bad: good because most players could pick up what SHOULD be a decent bar. Bad because after that, it's anyone's guess whether the person running said 'decent skillbar' is actually capable of using it. Of course, it also provided an expedient method for PUGs to check someone's bar, especially if they weren't familiar with the class in question, and if many of them took it to mean 'Only PvX bars are good enough'? Ultimately, that's their fault. Not PvX's. You cannot blame PvX if players decide to take it too seriously.
It's not PvX's fault that so many people take it as the only thing that works. It's not PvX's fault that many people copy builds off it mindlessly because they are told to, and then proceed to play said builds badly. That's the player's fault. If I don't know anything about the class, I'd go look for ideas before trying to slap a build together, and I'd probably take a look at the stuff in PvX, because it's a database of builds.
I would not take the whole thing as the only viable bar, as so many PUGs are doing. That's an issue with mentality. I think PvX made it such that people didn't have to go sit down and think hard over their builds, which was both good and bad: good because most players could pick up what SHOULD be a decent bar. Bad because after that, it's anyone's guess whether the person running said 'decent skillbar' is actually capable of using it. Of course, it also provided an expedient method for PUGs to check someone's bar, especially if they weren't familiar with the class in question, and if many of them took it to mean 'Only PvX bars are good enough'? Ultimately, that's their fault. Not PvX's. You cannot blame PvX if players decide to take it too seriously.
Foe
No because seeing the term "wiki noobs" or "pvx noob" used in game always makes me laugh. Whats funny is this is like the basement level argument for build honor. Some dude running a mark of protection e/mo with lorb and chain lightning in ra getting mad at the "wiki noob" apply ranger for not having the ingenuity to play dumb/less powerful builds. Its essentially the same argument that's made against [rawr].
Konker2020
In short, yes it is.
HawkofStorms
People who kick you or get angry if you run a varient of a build are pretty stupid... mainly because they likely don't understand the mechanics of why some skills are needed or why some varients would be better. That's a problem with them.
However, PvX isn't the problem. People still copy and pasted builds off people from forums, etc.
The problem is people who can't think for themselves and use those things as a crutch. They are the first people to come on a forum and complain "WAH you nerfed Shadow Form/Ursan/etc." They also like to complain when a skill gets buffed that they use or a new functionality, mainly because they don't understand the game mechanics enough to even realize the skill got a buff, not a nerf.
However, PvX isn't the problem. People still copy and pasted builds off people from forums, etc.
The problem is people who can't think for themselves and use those things as a crutch. They are the first people to come on a forum and complain "WAH you nerfed Shadow Form/Ursan/etc." They also like to complain when a skill gets buffed that they use or a new functionality, mainly because they don't understand the game mechanics enough to even realize the skill got a buff, not a nerf.
Konker2020
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
People who kick you or get angry if you run a varient of a build are pretty stupid... mainly because they likely don't understand the mechanics of why some skills are needed or why some varients would be better. That's a problem with them.
However, PvX isn't the problem. People still copy and pasted builds off people from forums, etc. The problem is people who can't think for themselves and use those things as a crutch. They are the first people to come on a forum and complain "WAH you nerfed Shadow Form/Ursan/etc." They also like to complain when a skill gets buffed that they use or a new functionality, mainly because they don't understand the game mechanics enough to even realize the skill got a buff, not a nerf. |
Krill
Conceptually it's great, the problem (with PvX itself) is more how it's ran. A small group of generally terrible players with little understanding of the game have too much control over voting and others often vote as they do. PvP wise, outside low ranked HA pugs I think people are smart enough to think for themselves with alterations to meta builds or entirely new ones.
I'm sure it's far worse for PvE though and can understand how PvX is seen as a strangle on creativity for puggers (but is there any creativity in PvE?).
I'm sure it's far worse for PvE though and can understand how PvX is seen as a strangle on creativity for puggers (but is there any creativity in PvE?).
darkmexican92
stop QQing, popular builds will always find their way to players regardless of anything
Kumu Honua
Pugs are full of idiots. I don't do it. Not gonna deal with it.
My friends let me run whatever I want. We steamroll like always.
My bar?
R/Rt
PI
Assa
Naga summon
Signet of spirits
bloodsong
volley
dshot
fomf
Most definitely not pvx. I just like summoning all sorts of things for combat.
My friends let me run whatever I want. We steamroll like always.
My bar?
R/Rt
PI
Assa
Naga summon
Signet of spirits
bloodsong
volley
dshot
fomf
Most definitely not pvx. I just like summoning all sorts of things for combat.
Auron of Neon
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Originally Posted by Kumu Honua
My bar?
R/Rt PI Assa Naga summon Signet of spirits bloodsong volley dshot fomf Most definitely not pvx. I just like summoning all sorts of things for combat. |
...just lol.
Kumu Honua
Pray tell. What's so lol?
Why so serious? It's pve. I could run with an empty bar...
Why so serious? It's pve. I could run with an empty bar...
stuntharley
PvX builds in HA FAIL, so you must be under rank 3.
ShadowbaneX
my guild is fond of random-way. It's fun. 
fleshharvest
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kumu Honua
Why so serious? It's pve. I could run with an empty bar...
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EDIT: Might as well throw in my opinion. PvX is fine. Most people who never play anything on PvX are the same people using Healing Breeze, Ignite Arrows, Power Shot, Escape, Troll, etc. The people copying PvX skill by skill, are going to fail half the time because builds need to be modded for different areas. Also, most of the hero builds on PvX are atrocious.
Anywho, PvX isn't ruining the game, people who have been playing for 4 years and haven't learned game mechanics are.
imnotyourmother
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Originally Posted by harpharp
why cant people accept that instead of going omg, this wont work kick even before they look at your skillbar?
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This should be REMOVED in GW2. IF you find a great build.. NO ONE should be able to just join your party and steel your build cause well...they can.
If I spend a week making a build say - Hard mode Snow Wums for War getting Legendary Survivor then by gosh I should not be able to see it a day later on Pvx cause I helped someone.
This is crap. If someone wants to share their build that is one thing..but to steel it is just wrong.
Earth
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Originally Posted by imnotyourmother
^ Exactly. Here is the thing. The problem with the game is that people can SEE your skills.
This should be REMOVED in GW2. IF you find a great build.. NO ONE should be able to just join your party and steel your build cause well...they can. If I spend a week making a build say - Hard mode Snow Wums for War getting Legendary Survivor then by gosh I should not be able to see it a day later on Pvx cause I helped someone. This is crap. If someone wants to share their build that is one thing..but to steel it is just wrong. |
First of all you don't have to show your build.
Second of all you don't own a build, and if you show it to someone and it works then it's pretty damn obvious they'll share it.
Seriously, PvX is not destroying the game. It's the players' mentality.
ArlanKels
What's hurting the game isn't PvX, a site like PvX will exist in this day and age and nothing can be done to stop it.
What's hurting the game is that people are acting like this is SERIOUS BUSINESS when they do something like a NM ordinary mission run. They demand you use certain builds, certain skills.
What's hurting the game is that people are acting like this is SERIOUS BUSINESS when they do something like a NM ordinary mission run. They demand you use certain builds, certain skills.
Pinkest One
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Originally Posted by ArlanKels
What's hurting the game is that people are acting like this is SERIOUS BUSINESS when they do something like a NM ordinary mission run. They demand you use certain builds, certain skills.
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PVX does a lame version of the same thing. Don't think its bad nor SRS BSNS.
qvtkc
PvX is good for idiots who don't know the game well enough to make their own builds.
That said, a very very large part of the community consist of idiots who don't know the game well enough to make their own builds. In other words, PvX is good for them.
That doesn't mean it's a good thing to demand that everyone should use PvX builds. If you can put together an efficient build that's not on PvX, that should be fine. Unfortunately, see above, the party leader is most likely an idiot who don't know the game well enough to judge a build by himself. So of course he'll demand PvX builds since even though he's an idiot, he at least knows that PvX stuff works.
Oh, and by good build, I mean actually good build, not something like, trapper elementalist or Fireball monk.
One thing remains in my argument. Is there efficient builds that are not on PvX?
A quick glance reveals that some lolcrap Triple Chop build is listed under "great general PvE builds" for warriors. But there is no half decent, general PvE Hundred Blades build listed under "great". Point proven as I'm sure this is not the only example.
That said, a very very large part of the community consist of idiots who don't know the game well enough to make their own builds. In other words, PvX is good for them.
That doesn't mean it's a good thing to demand that everyone should use PvX builds. If you can put together an efficient build that's not on PvX, that should be fine. Unfortunately, see above, the party leader is most likely an idiot who don't know the game well enough to judge a build by himself. So of course he'll demand PvX builds since even though he's an idiot, he at least knows that PvX stuff works.
Oh, and by good build, I mean actually good build, not something like, trapper elementalist or Fireball monk.
One thing remains in my argument. Is there efficient builds that are not on PvX?
A quick glance reveals that some lolcrap Triple Chop build is listed under "great general PvE builds" for warriors. But there is no half decent, general PvE Hundred Blades build listed under "great". Point proven as I'm sure this is not the only example.
glacialphoenix
Quote:
| NO ONE should be able to just join your party and steel your build cause well...they can. |
willie nelson
1.find decent guild
2.stop PUGing
3.??
4.profit
2.stop PUGing
3.??
4.profit
Spiritweaver
There's nothing wrong with PvX. They don't tell you what you should or shouldn't run, players in-game do. All they do is document commonly used builds. Is the site perfect? Far from it, but then neither is GWG.
9/10 times players in a group tell you to switch your build because either your build fails horribly, isn't optimal, or it doesn't synergize with the rest of the parties setup. Not that all players are right, but if you get two or three telling you the same thing then there's generally a good reason for it in most cases, and they're probably more likely right than wrong.
If you're going to join a PuG then you better bring the best you've got because PuGs get sick of failing because people run sub-par builds just for the sake of running something original rather than running something optimal. If you want to be original do it with your heroes and hench or do it with your friends until you know for sure the build you are using is at it's most optimal.
9/10 times players in a group tell you to switch your build because either your build fails horribly, isn't optimal, or it doesn't synergize with the rest of the parties setup. Not that all players are right, but if you get two or three telling you the same thing then there's generally a good reason for it in most cases, and they're probably more likely right than wrong.
If you're going to join a PuG then you better bring the best you've got because PuGs get sick of failing because people run sub-par builds just for the sake of running something original rather than running something optimal. If you want to be original do it with your heroes and hench or do it with your friends until you know for sure the build you are using is at it's most optimal.
Daesu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by harpharp
every time i join a group, there would be at least one who insist i copy and paste every skill taken from pvx. Usually i cbb, but it really annoys me when you know there are better alts out there but cant use cos the group might kick you and you have to do things as a group e.g. uwsc, ha, e.t.c.
I used to love pvx, but got so sick of all these people insist you must copy everything that is shown there. If theres a better skill out there, why cant people accept that instead of going omg, this wont work kick even before they look at your skillbar? |
This is why they try so hard to ensure that their team uses "proven" pvx builds. Rather than "untested" and unknown builds that may or may not be effective.
The fact that they are willing to kick you out of their team for using an unproven build, already shows that socializing isn't their main concern. Face it, they are not interested to know you as a person, you are merely a tool for them to reach their goals.
RedNova88
Whether or not PvX was around popular builds would still hit the community, albeit slightly more gradually. The fact remains though that sooner or later it would get to everyone interested. If you want to blame something blame the community itself. They are the ones so shallow and stubborn that they don't allow anything less than some FotM build.
Play with friends. Play with INTELLIGENT people. Only idiots grab at the assumption that anything but PvX is bad.
Play with friends. Play with INTELLIGENT people. Only idiots grab at the assumption that anything but PvX is bad.
Qing Guang
I PUG all the time, and I can't recall a time in recent history (ie the last year or so of play) that someone has asked me to run a PvX build. Occasionally they'll ask me to substitute a skill or something, and sometimes they dislike my hero monk's build and ask me to kick mine so they can add theirs, but other than that... nothing.
Maybe it's because when they see my build, they give me up as a lost cause, since my builds are so weird. They don't even complain about my elite, which is weird... my current darling is Ride the Lightning, and before that it was Shockwave. My ele couldn't keep herself out of melee if her life depended on it.
Or maybe it's all just due to my habit of never pinging my bar unless someone explicitly asks?
Maybe it's because when they see my build, they give me up as a lost cause, since my builds are so weird. They don't even complain about my elite, which is weird... my current darling is Ride the Lightning, and before that it was Shockwave. My ele couldn't keep herself out of melee if her life depended on it.
Or maybe it's all just due to my habit of never pinging my bar unless someone explicitly asks?
kazi_saki
lol people are still complaining about PvX wiki? Some use it, some don't. What's your problem?
Its a tool. Its there to collect all the builds, trash or great, that many of the players come up with. If some players prefer you use a build from there its your choice if you want to use it.
There's also no shame in using builds from PvX. Some people just want to play the game without bothering much on analyzing skills too deep. Some people think its shameful because they didn't come up with it themselves. Also there are a few players out there who want to be "elitist" or have that feelign of superiority in a game that is very balanced so they found it in "looking down at pvx nubs".
I think that people will eventually end up using the same skillbar for their profession if it seems to work.
Also, some people just have unique playstyles and I think people should understand that. I have a friend who has played as long as me (1 year) but who has crazy/weird/lol builds but its still all fun :P
Its a tool. Its there to collect all the builds, trash or great, that many of the players come up with. If some players prefer you use a build from there its your choice if you want to use it.
There's also no shame in using builds from PvX. Some people just want to play the game without bothering much on analyzing skills too deep. Some people think its shameful because they didn't come up with it themselves. Also there are a few players out there who want to be "elitist" or have that feelign of superiority in a game that is very balanced so they found it in "looking down at pvx nubs".
I think that people will eventually end up using the same skillbar for their profession if it seems to work.
Also, some people just have unique playstyles and I think people should understand that. I have a friend who has played as long as me (1 year) but who has crazy/weird/lol builds but its still all fun :P
Daesu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by RedNova88
Play with friends. Play with INTELLIGENT people. Only idiots grab at the assumption that anything but PvX is bad.
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Pvx builds are generally good but very few of them are what I would consider optimal builds. Meaning there are better buidls than these, especially if you take the specific areas into account.
The problem the OP is talking about is not actually a problem with pvx but with close-minded people refusing to take risks or to trust you. I run a spirit spamming rit with a pet and GDW. I dont see the build accepted in pvx yet but I dont care. I can draw out a pvx build from my templates, ping it, then revert back to my own.