My PvE Grenth dervish

zelgadissan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2008

The Warrior Priests [WP]

Me/Rt

03 Sep 2009 at 15:42 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post

You don't need the stance removal as the only threatening stances are blocking ones and you cannot be blocked. Elite Form. (10...74...90 seconds.) Enchanted foes cannot block you. Your attacks deal cold damage and steal 5...17...20 life. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

Personally I would run Wild Blow in any area with buttloads of blocking rangers, like Kournans or Rain Beetles. Past that, it's a good skill on a derv if you're looking to fill a slot, but by no means necessary.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

03 Sep 2009 at 16:07 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan View Post

Elite Form. (10...74...90 seconds.) Enchanted foes cannot block you. Your attacks deal cold damage and steal 5...17...20 life. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.
Sorry, not fully with it today. Forgot that clause and it's been ages since I actually used the skill.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

03 Sep 2009 at 16:34 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

First of all, permanent unblockability alone is worth an elite slot. If only... but it doesn't so it isn't.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

03 Sep 2009 at 16:56 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg View Post

Actually, I agree it was fail. After all, a scythe user without AoHM? Instant fail.

And yet, it still beats your build in every way. Guess that makes your build fail as well. No matter what your build can accomplish, it will still suck because a scythe warrior can do it better.

PvE can be vqed by mending wammos. Being able to do the same with an equally crappy build doesn't make it any less crappy.

It's not about what dervishes are supposed to do (it's believed they were meant to spam and strip enchantments, but that sucks for various reasons), but what they are good at. Your build works, but it's not good. I'll tell you your build is good when it can't be done better by some other profession.

You want some dervish builds that are actually good? Ok, here's some:

"For Great Justice!"
Aura of Holy Might
Heart of Fury
Asuran Scan
Wounding Strike
"Save Yourselves!"
Optional
Optional

Avatar of Melandru
Eternal Aura
Aura of Holy Might
Asuran Scan
Wearying Strike
Heart of Fury
Optional
Optional

Avatar of Dwayna
Eternal Aura
Aura of Holy Might
Asuran Scan
Heart of Fury
Optional
Optional
Optional

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Guys, PI works FINE with SY!. The damage doesn't only come from party members, but allies, which, guess what - include minions.

I've stated before that AoG is the best dervish elite available and that WS is completely overrated. First of all, permanent unblockability alone is worth an elite slot. +20 lifesteal on top is just overpowered. WS is capped at 100 damage every ~5ish seconds. Guess about how much lifesteal AoG adds in on that time?

On top of that, WS basically is an inferior version of wearying strike. The self-inflicting weakness condition is marginal because base damage is and always will be, crap EVEN FOR SCYTHES.

As far as base damage, crits in the 100s are nice, but are rare, you are far more likely to pew pew at ~30 damage a hit, ESPECIALLY against tougher enemies in the level 30,32+.

About Paul's bar:
1) I agree with other people that AoHM is probably better than PI, but only with damage buffs (cough SoH).

2) Victorious seems pretty redundant, considering the amount of lifesteal.

3)Eternal aura isn't needed, because AoG has very little downtime, anyway, and if you REALLY need it, you can just wait a few seconds.

If I were VQing with a derv, my bar would probably look like:

Avatar of Grenth
Drunken Master (with alc)
"For great justice!"
"Save yourselves!"
Wearying Strike
Protector's Strike
Wild Blow
AoHM (if using SoH) Eternal Aura is needed if you want to get an acceptable amount of kills in an acceptable amount of time. AoG, like the other avatars, has a lot of downtime (120 seconds is a long time to wait between mobs).

That's why WS is considered a better elite than AoG. AoG requires EA to be useful (which means either no Asuran Scan or no SY!; either way a big sacrifice). WS does not. Also, you forget the bleeding. That's an additional 6 damage per second. In the time it takes most attack skills to recharge, WS will do 24 damage. It's minor, but for the sake of completeness I figured I'd mention it.

Also, Drunken Master? I could understand if you weren't using SY!, but you are, and you're sacrificing the possibility of Asuran Scan for an IAS, when you could just use HoF (which you already have the points in mysticism for)? HoF + Asuran Scan > Drunken Master.

Wearying Strike? Seriously? You are willing to sacrifice 66% of your attack power just for a single DW+20 dmg spike? This completely contradicts your assertion that +20 lifesteal is better than WS's deep wound. Weakness makes you lose a lot more than 20 damage per swing.

Saying damage for scythes will always be crap is like saying there's no reason to use them at all. Guess there's no point to any of these builds, then. Base damage doesn't mean much when you've got the kinds of buffs scythe users can get. But weakness will certainly mean something.

Oh, yeah, one more thing. Your build suffers from the same problem as his. It's redundant. Scythe warrior can outdamage and outsurvive it.

Scythe O F Glory

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2008

New Jersey

League of Elite [LoE]

03 Sep 2009 at 21:45 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Ummmm, says who? Is the game called "Guild Wars" or "The Way IronSheik Likes to Play Guild Wars"? You can make all kinds of dervish builds based on what dervishes are "meant" to do (they're all over pvxwiki), and, guess what, they're not very good for hero-henching. In fact, the reason why most people don't even try extended hero-henching with dervishes is that they don't think dervishes are suited to it.

Guys, say what you want, the build works. I've been able to hero-hench every zone I've tried in HM with it. It might not conform to your notions of what a dervish is supposed to do, but obviously that wasn't my goal. And it is absolutely untrue that anything will work in PvE. I'd like to see another dervish build that can hero-hench any zone in HM. Reaper with no name's suggestion was fail. I'll repeat what I said before, but more in-depth. It's not YOUR build that's hero-henching every area HM. Anybody with half a brain can load up Sabway/Discordway with whatever fail build they may have, and Poof! PvE is easy! I could probably go in naked and still H/H some HM areas. So this discussion isn't about what "works" (because damn near everything works), but about what is the best. And your build is clearly not the best. I could give you a list of builds that can h/h any zone in HM, but I would be here for days.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

03 Sep 2009 at 21:54 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post

Eternal Aura is needed if you want to get an acceptable amount of kills in an acceptable amount of time. AoG, like the other avatars, has a lot of downtime (120 seconds is a long time to wait between mobs).

AoG lasts 90 seconds at 15 Mysticism. That's 30 seconds of downtime, which isn't too bad, but enough to justify bringing Eternal Aura.

Quote: Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Wearying Strike? Seriously? You are willing to sacrifice 66% of your attack power just for a single DW+20 dmg spike? This completely contradicts your assertion that +20 lifesteal is better than WS's deep wound. Weakness makes you lose a lot more than 20 damage per swing. Weakness reduces your base damage only. It does not affect the +damage from skills or buffs. It also reduces all non-zero atts by 1, which has a small effect on your attack skills.
I did a little test earlier and ran out into a zone in HM and auto-attacked the first thing I ran into - a level 26 Graven Monolith*. I was hitting for 13 a lot.
All weakness affects is that 13 damage hit.** Weakness will make you lose a lot less than 20 damage a swing.

*Not sure if it affects them or not, but I was not under the effects of the Lightbringer title.

**Customised 15^50 Zealous Scythe of Enchanting at 14 Scythe Mastery.

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

04 Sep 2009 at 01:05 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post

Why Protector's Strike? Mystic sweep has a slightly lower activation time and 1 second longer recharge, but you should be doing more damage with it.

You're probably right on mystic sweep is better, but I'd like to see some math on it

Quote: Wild Blow also seems unnecessary; is a garunteed crit every 8 seconds worth it when you could take a different attack (Mystic would be better here if you keep Prot Strike). You don't need the stance removal as the only threatening stances are blocking ones and you cannot be blocked. You're only unblockable vs. enchanted foes, not all foes and there are a lot of stance RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs throughout the game. I guess there could be a better skill for the slot, but I couldn't think of any. Mystic/eremite's seems too energy intensive, IMO. Zealous Sweep maybe?

Quote:

AoHM is worth it even without Strength of Honor. AoHM is kinda sucky without damage buffs unless ur going up on undead. Even against undead, I still get 30s on threshers now and then.

Edit:

Quote:

1) Eternal Aura is needed if you want to get an acceptable amount of kills in an acceptable amount of time. AoG, like the other avatars, has a lot of downtime (120 seconds is a long time to wait between mobs).

2) Wearying Strike? Seriously? You are willing to sacrifice 66% of your attack power just for a single DW+20 dmg spike? This completely contradicts your assertion that +20 lifesteal is better than WS's deep wound. Weakness makes you lose a lot more than 20 damage per swing.

3) Also, Drunken Master? I could understand if you weren't using SY!, but you are, and you're sacrificing the possibility of Asuran Scan for an IAS, when you could just use HoF (which you already have the points in mysticism for)? HoF + Asuran Scan > Drunken Master.

4) Oh, yeah, one more thing. Your build suffers from the same problem as his. It's redundant. Scythe warrior can outdamage and outsurvive it. ^Lot of bad information there. Where to start. Xeno pointed out most of it, but let me re-iterate to make sure you understand.

1) Downtime is not 120 seconds. Mysticism is not at zero. 90 seconds of avatar is more than enough to last the entire fight.

2) Weakness doesn't make you do 20 less damage. Most of the time it's removed pretty fast anyway. You should have RC or FF somewhere.

3) Drunken master is much stronger than HoF. HoF has a downtime of 6 seconds every 30 seconds. That means you are losing ~4-5 hits every 30 seconds.

Also, let's not underestimate the speed boost - getting into the fight faster and then moving between foes faster should not be underestimated. The perma speed boost alone makes it far better than HoF + asura scan, considering if you're VQing, you need to cartography as well.

4) Outdamaged by a scythe war? Please tell me you are joking.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

04 Sep 2009 at 01:32 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

AoHM is kinda sucky without damage buffs unless ur going up on undead. Even against undead, I still get 30s on threshers now and then. I mentioned hitting for 13 against the Graven Monoliths.
Been there again, and I was less consistent and varied between 8 and 20. A crit did hit for 30ish, but they were reforming I think.

With AoHM up (at Kurz R4*), I varied between 20 and 60 with a crit at 97 (again, they were reforming). Either way, the damage output was considerably greater.

The thing is, the extra damage from AoHM scales with damage from each scythe hit and that means it varies a lot. Other buffs have a more flat output. But I don't see why you hold that "AoHM is kinda sucky without damage buffs", because it doesn't increase the damage from those buffs as far as I know.

IronSheik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Wolfenstein: Goldrush

Zombies Go Nom Nom [Nom]

04 Sep 2009 at 01:48 - 49

Saying AoHM is sucky without damage buffs is like saying damage buffs are sucky without AoHM.

AoHM IS the damage buff.

And no paul, you have 25 second downtime of FGJ where I'm keeping it up the same speed/faster than you because I brought that fast activating attack skill instead.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

04 Sep 2009 at 04:30 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You're probably right on mystic sweep is better, but I'd like to see some math on it

You're only unblockable vs. enchanted foes, not all foes and there are a lot of stance RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs throughout the game. I guess there could be a better skill for the slot, but I couldn't think of any. Mystic/eremite's seems too energy intensive, IMO. Zealous Sweep maybe?

AoHM is kinda sucky without damage buffs unless ur going up on undead. Even against undead, I still get 30s on threshers now and then.

Edit:

^Lot of bad information there. Where to start. Xeno pointed out most of it, but let me re-iterate to make sure you understand.

1) Downtime is not 120 seconds. Mysticism is not at zero. 90 seconds of avatar is more than enough to last the entire fight.

2) Weakness doesn't make you do 20 less damage. Most of the time it's removed pretty fast anyway. You should have RC or FF somewhere.

3) Drunken master is much stronger than HoF. HoF has a downtime of 6 seconds every 30 seconds. That means you are losing ~4-5 hits every 30 seconds.

Also, let's not underestimate the speed boost - getting into the fight faster and then moving between foes faster should not be underestimated. The perma speed boost alone makes it far better than HoF + asura scan, considering if you're VQing, you need to cartography as well.

4) Outdamaged by a scythe war? Please tell me you are joking. AoHM is kind of sucky? It's the single greatest attack buff a dervish can get. It makes your autoattacks as powerful as attack skills. If you're not using AoHM, you should not be using a scythe at all. That's how powerful it is. Not using it is like using a max sword with 6 swordsmanship. You're missing out on so much damage it's ridiculous. The only reason you would ever not want to use AoHM is for synergy with physical buffs such as MoP. However, scythe users have no place in parties that do that anyway, because Hundred Blades is far, far better at that kind of thing. So there's no reason not to use AoHM.

HoF + Asuran Scan > Drunken Master alone. Sorry, but it's true. The damage buff you get from Asuran Scan is far greater than what you lose when HoF is down. And speed boosts aren't that useful in PvE.

Ok, you're right about the downtime thing, but still, having to wait 30 sec (or more, if the battle lasts less than 90 sec and you don't want to risk losing your avatar in the middle of battle) for your avatar to recharge between mobs? Come on. You're sitting there doing nothing when you should be killing stuff.

If you have AoHM up (which, again, you need in order to do any real damage with a scythe), then yes, you lose more than 20 damage if you have weakness on you. And if you're relying on the fact that it can get removed quickly to nullify that problem, guess what? You've introduced another downside: energy cost. Condition removal costs energy. Maybe not for you, but your poor monk is wasting energy keeping you effective that he should have been using to heal and prot.

Oh, and in the time it takes Wearying Strike to recharge, WS's bleeding will have dealt 36 damage, greater than Wearying's +dmg.

Also, you ignore the recharge time. Often, you don't need rapid deep wound, but sometimes it comes in handy.

And yes, it is outdamaged by a scythe warrior. Any build a dervish can bring to the table short of Vow Of Strength can be outdamaged by a scythe warrior (and VoS requires your party to gimp itself to work). That's why it's pointless to go for pure attack power on a dervish (same with survivability). The only way a dervish can avoid redundancy is to go for some sort of utility that a warrior or sin cannot get (such as WS or GftE). Honestly, where have you been? This has been well-established by countless threads.

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

04 Sep 2009 at 07:15 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post

I mentioned hitting for 13 against the Graven Monoliths.
Been there again, and I was less consistent and varied between 8 and 20. A crit did hit for 30ish, but they were reforming I think.

With AoHM up (at Kurz R4*), I varied between 20 and 60 with a crit at 97 (again, they were reforming). Either way, the damage output was considerably greater.

HoF + Asuran Scan > Drunken Master alone. Sorry, but it's true. The damage buff you get from Asuran Scan is far greater than what you lose when HoF is down. And speed boosts aren't that useful in PvE.

You cannot be serious... can you? Since you need to cartography, an IMS will speed up PvE more than ANYTHING you can bring to a VQ. Drunken Master is IAS/IMS combined, making it one of the most overpowered skills in the game for main characters.

Quote:

Ok, you're right about the downtime thing, but still, having to wait 30 sec (or more, if the battle lasts less than 90 sec and you don't want to risk losing your avatar in the middle of battle) for your avatar to recharge between mobs? Come on. You're sitting there doing nothing when you should be killing stuff. It is personal preference. I don't see how you can argue this. You don't need Grenth going into every fight. For small skirmishes, the time difference is almost completely negligable. You can probably skip it for the most part. For big fights, it WILL make a difference though, and it should last more than long enough.

Quote:

If you have AoHM up (which, again, you need in order to do any real damage with a scythe), then yes, you lose more than 20 damage if you have weakness on you. And if you're relying on the fact that it can get removed quickly to nullify that problem, guess what? You've introduced another downside: energy cost. Condition removal costs energy. Maybe not for you, but your poor monk is wasting energy keeping you effective that he should have been using to heal and prot. With FF, it costs anywhere from 3 energy to an actual energy gain. That's hardly a downside.

Quote:

Oh, and in the time it takes Wearying Strike to recharge, WS's bleeding will have dealt 36 damage, greater than Wearying's +dmg.

Also, you ignore the recharge time. Often, you don't need rapid deep wound, but sometimes it comes in handy. Come on, man. That's pure misinformation. You are completely discounting the fact that Grenth already equals WS in damage. Damage from Wearying is ON TOP of that. It's not fair to compare WS to Wearying. Rather, compare WS to Grenth and Wearying.

Quote:

The only way a dervish can avoid redundancy is to go for some sort of utility that a warrior or sin cannot get (such as WS or GftE). Honestly, where have you been? This has been well-established by countless threads. Uhm... except WS isn't utility, it's damage. GftE.........

Seriously... um, I can't tell if you're just trolling or not. I don't mean to be offensive, but some of the stuff you've just said is.. sorta far out.

I've also read some of your other posts.... Pet dervish? I don't know how you came up with that....

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

04 Sep 2009 at 10:39 - 52

Originally Posted by traversc View Post

Seriously... um, I can't tell if you're just trolling or not. I don't mean to be offensive, but some of the stuff you've just said is.. sorta far out.

I've also read some of your other posts.... Pet dervish? I don't know how you came up with that.... What reaper with no name is talking about is "How to make a dervish wanted on a 8(12) player party?", "Why will that party take a dervish instead of something else?" - basically he is talking about Balance between Professions.

Of course that doesn't matter much if you have a dervish and are playing with it. Unfortunately, the most efficient dervish builds are builds that other professions can do better (with the exception of some areas where the Avatars, mostly Mel and Dwayna, can shine) hence why reaper with no name is looking for no redundant builds.

Again, unfortunately, other than those niche areas Mel and Dwayna can shine, Dervishes are subpar because their Primary Attribute is quite bad compared to others.

Unless a completely dominating skill (like Shadow form) requires runes to reach an important break point or some really powerful skills are linked to the primary attribute (like Ether Renewal, for example), a profession is down to armor, primary attribute effect and energy pipes. Rarely does the primary profession/secondary profession combination matters.

In the Dervish vs Warrior and Assassins dispute, due to them being the 3 frontliner professions, Assassins have the same or better armor and a much better primary attribute and the warriors have better armor and an attribute that is at least as efficient and also brings to the table power attack.

And this the sad reality of the dervish.

Lopezus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

MDD

D/W

04 Sep 2009 at 12:40 - 53

Quote:

HoF has a downtime of 6 seconds every 30 seconds. That means you are losing ~4-5 hits every 30 seconds. not really, that's what eternal aura is for, it deals nice damage and recharges all your dervish skills HoF included.

Catchphrase

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2009

04 Sep 2009 at 16:40 - 54

^ No... It highly depends on the order and time span between which you casts Eternal Aura and other dervish enchantments. If you chain cast Eternal Aura, HoF, AoHM in 1 shot, I doubt HoF would be recharged after 2 repetitions of the cycle. Ideally, you should allow roughly 5s between casts of Eternal Aura first and HoF if you want to have HoF constantly recharged.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

04 Sep 2009 at 19:45 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc View Post

My mistake. The skill description is incorrect, and I was assuming it acted like asura scan, multiplying final damage. The skill actually adds quite a bit more damage. From wiki:

"The damage increase from this skill is not added as a percent; instead, it is added on to your effective damage rating. So, an increase of your damage rating by 21 (rank 1) increases damage by approximately 43%. "

You cannot be serious... can you? Since you need to cartography, an IMS will speed up PvE more than ANYTHING you can bring to a VQ. Drunken Master is IAS/IMS combined, making it one of the most overpowered skills in the game for main characters.

It is personal preference. I don't see how you can argue this. You don't need Grenth going into every fight. For small skirmishes, the time difference is almost completely negligable. You can probably skip it for the most part. For big fights, it WILL make a difference though, and it should last more than long enough.

With FF, it costs anywhere from 3 energy to an actual energy gain. That's hardly a downside.

Come on, man. That's pure misinformation. You are completely discounting the fact that Grenth already equals WS in damage. Damage from Wearying is ON TOP of that. It's not fair to compare WS to Wearying. Rather, compare WS to Grenth and Wearying.

Uhm... except WS isn't utility, it's damage. GftE.........

Seriously... um, I can't tell if you're just trolling or not. I don't mean to be offensive, but some of the stuff you've just said is.. sorta far out.

I've also read some of your other posts.... Pet dervish? I don't know how you came up with that....

Eh, it's ok. The skill description on AoHM really needs to be updated. It probably is the way it is because of how complicated the damage calculations are.

I don't see your obsession with IMS.

AoG without EA nullifies any speed benefits you might get with an IMS. Also, an IMS is kind of pointless if it doesn't affect your whole party, because you still have to wait for them. Well, unless you expect your entire party to burn a slot just for IMS (ie, if your entire party gimps themselves).

One slot for spammable deep wound and bleeding > two slots for an elite with 20 lifesteal and huge downtime + deep wound with weakness

It's AoG that can't be compared to WS. Wearying, however, can. Guess what? WS is far superior to Wearying. And AoG is just not very good without EA. There are 3 scenarios for AoG:

1) The battle lasts almost 90 sec, in which case you have to wait 30 sec until the next mob

2) The battle lasts significantly less than 90 sec, in which case you still have to wait until it recharges or else have it run out during a fight

3) The battle lasts longer than 90 sec (incredibly rare), in which case you're left without AoG

No matter what, you're going to have to either fight without your elite sometimes or wait for it to recharge between mobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Speed boosts are useful in PvE, but single character aren't that powerful. And while drunken master is very powerful if you are using consumables (booze), I reckon it is way better just to use consumables like green/blue/red candies and/or celerity.

For some reason Warrior builds in PvE don't run Bull's Strike and/or Protector's strike.

Party wide speed buffs are quite powerful though. Still Charge and Incoming aren't exactly justifiable. Fall back on the other hand is - 2 copies of fall back remove loads of walking time.

Probably not that easy to slot on h/h but quite easy on 2 players+ parties.

What reaper with no name is talking about is "How to make a dervish wanted on a 8(12) player party?", "Why will that party take a dervish instead of something else?" - basically he is talking about Balance between Professions.

Of course that doesn't matter much if you have a dervish and are playing with it. Unfortunately, the most efficient dervish builds are builds that other professions can do better (with the exception of some areas where the Avatars, mostly Mel and Dwayna, can shine) hence why reaper with no name is looking for no redundant builds.

Again, unfortunately, other than those niche areas Mel and Dwayna can shine, Dervishes are subpar because their Primary Attribute is quite bad compared to others.

Unless a completely dominating skill (like Shadow form) requires runes to reach an important break point or some really powerful skills are linked to the primary attribute (like Ether Renewal, for example), a profession is down to armor, primary attribute effect and energy pipes. Rarely does the primary profession/secondary profession combination matters.

In the Dervish vs Warrior and Assassins dispute, due to them being the 3 frontliner professions, Assassins have the same or better armor and a much better primary attribute and the warriors have better armor and an attribute that is at least as efficient and also brings to the table power attack.

And this the sad reality of the dervish. This. If you don't have something the scythe warrior and scythe sin can't get, then there's no reason for you to be a dervish at all. That's why I have GftE or a pet on some of my builds; so that there's actually a purpose to my build. It's better to be better than the competition in one way, no matter how strange, than to be beaten by them in every category.

That's also one of the reasons for WS; scythe warriors can't take it without sacrificing WE (the thing that allows them to beat out dervishes in scythery). Combine it with SY! or the like and you avoid redundancy. AoG doesn't offer that. It's just redundant.

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

05 Sep 2009 at 08:27 - 56

Quote:

Of course that doesn't matter much if you have a dervish and are playing with it. Unfortunately, the most efficient dervish builds are builds that other professions can do better (with the exception of some areas where the Avatars, mostly Mel and Dwayna, can shine) hence why reaper with no name is looking for no redundant builds.

Again, unfortunately, other than those niche areas Mel and Dwayna can shine, Dervishes are subpar because their Primary Attribute is quite bad compared to others.

AoG without EA nullifies any speed benefits you might get with an IMS. Also, an IMS is kind of pointless if it doesn't affect your whole party, because you still have to wait for them. Well, unless you expect your entire party to burn a slot just for IMS (ie, if your entire party gimps themselves).

It's AoG that can't be compared to WS. Wearying, however, can. Guess what? WS is far superior to Wearying. Yes, because comparing an elite to a non-elite skill is completely fair.

. Saying that WS is superior to Wearying is like saying Soldier's Fury is superior to Agressive Refrain. It's technically true, but missing the point sorely.

Quote:

And AoG is just not very good without EA. There are 3 scenarios for AoG:

...
No, no no. This is lazy thought mind cancer. The downtime is incredibly minimal. Truthfully, against smaller skirmishes, you don't NEED AoG. The difference is very minimal. Against a large mob with a healer backline, you better believe that AoG will help a LOT. Added pressure will end a large fight on a non-linear scale. Thus, the time saved by using AoG is not a linear difference based on number of foes.

Even if you were to look at AoG completely linearly (which again, is completely wrong), at the very limit, the downtime is 1/4, which means worst case scenario, AoG will provide an average of 15 life AoE life steal. That's still pretty kickass. You can of course do better by smart usage. EA thus provides 100/30 + 5 = 8 DPS. I am nearly positive you can find a PvE skill that can do better.

IronSheik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Wolfenstein: Goldrush

Zombies Go Nom Nom [Nom]

05 Sep 2009 at 16:18 - 57

Okay, you say no warrior can output more damage than a AoG derv, but then you add the clause if they have zealous+Orders, and by bringing zealous they lose a lot of damage.

That is making you bring a orders party member to keep up a dervs energy, which would be 2v1 dervs+orders vs. warrior.

Alone, a warrior does out damage a AoG, the limited energy, casting times for enchants, and 15-20 life steal doesn't beat strength 1v1. Before battle let's say you normally use AoG, eternal aura, AoHM, and heart of fury, that's 7 seconds where you aren't fighting. Warrior only uses AoHM.

And let's face it, WS is better than AoG in most cases. DW adds 100 damage, let's say.
And, it's PvE, if you aren't killing the average monster in 3-4 hits as a scythe user you're doing it wrong.

So estimating you hit an enemy 4 times at 15 myst, it does 80 life steal.
Sounds great if you don't kill that monster right away, since you can just bring wearying strike with AoG, but this gimps some of your attack damage, and also has twice the recharge on WS.

But, then you factor in either bring eternal Aura or not, you bring it, that loses a PvE slot and most likely DPS. You don't bring it, you factor in waiting around for 30 seconds, or entering battles without it, which then makes you a elite-less derv.

Slasher of Darkness

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2008

Lots of places~

05 Sep 2009 at 16:21 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

And, it's PvE, if you aren't killing the average monster in 3-4 hits as a scythe user you're doing it wrong. QFT! Scythe has such a great potential for damage output, should not gimp it, 200 dmg on HM destroyer warriors is orgasmic.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

05 Sep 2009 at 18:45 - 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

That's simply not true. First of all, no, scythe war does not outdamage an AoG build. If the derv can keep his energy up, which is clearly possible with zealous and orders, then AoG outdamages the scythe war by far.

Secondly, you've COMPLETELY overlooked AoG's unblockability. In all other cases, permanent unblockability requires an elite. No other option provides 20 AoE life steal as well.

Furthermore, if you say that Mel and Dwayna can have niches, then it's pretty clear that AoG can as well (when there are a lot of enchantment based blocking). Charr come to mind. AoG should be miles better than scythe war against Charr aegis spam whoru.

Last time I checked, heroes/hench don't need to cartography. H/H simply do not need to move as much for PvE, and like you said, dual FB! is not feasible in H/H. A permanent IMS will save nearly 10-20 minutes off of a VQ because of cartography alone + another few minutes by actual combat effects. There is no other single skill that can do that.

Yes, because comparing an elite to a non-elite skill is completely fair.

. Saying that WS is superior to Wearying is like saying Soldier's Fury is superior to Agressive Refrain. It's technically true, but missing the point sorely.

No, no no. This is lazy thought mind cancer. The downtime is incredibly minimal. Truthfully, against smaller skirmishes, you don't NEED AoG. The difference is very minimal. Against a large mob with a healer backline, you better believe that AoG will help a LOT. Added pressure will end a large fight on a non-linear scale. Thus, the time saved by using AoG is not a linear difference based on number of foes.

Even if you were to look at AoG completely linearly (which again, is completely wrong), at the very limit, the downtime is 1/4, which means worst case scenario, AoG will provide an average of 15 life AoE life steal. That's still pretty kickass. You can of course do better by smart usage. EA thus provides 100/30 + 5 = 8 DPS. I am nearly positive you can find a PvE skill that can do better. Yes, a scythe warrior does outdamage AoG. Would you like me to do the calculations for you? Or, you could save me the time and actually browse this section of the forum, because I'm sure I've done them before here.

The reason scythe warriors beat dervishes with scythes is because they have strength and the ability to spam attack skills until the cows come home (which dervishes cannot unless they take zealous vow, and in that case they still don't have the benefits of strength). Constant attack skills + strength > AoG's lifesteal

No, no, no, you're missing the point. A party can only move as fast as it's slowest member. In other words, for an IMS to actually decrease the travel time, everyone has to have one, or else the people who have one will end up having to stop and wait for the others to catch up, nullifying any benefits of having it.

There are very few places in which you will face foes with blocking enchantments. Stance-based blocking is FAR more common. If you want to say that unblockability vs enchanted foes gives it a niche, ok.

If you're fighting without AoG, then you're suboptimal. Whether you need it or not is irrelevant. You don't even NEED an optimal build to beat everything in PvE.

How can you say AoG's downtime is minor? Once again, either you let it run out and play without your elite, or you have to wait for it to recharge after the mob. So, either you play without an elite (and if you tell me your build is good without your elite I'll laugh), or you're wasting time (and if you tell me a build that requires you to wait 30 sec or more between mobs is good I'll also laugh).

Ok, then, how about this? One slot for WS > two slots for AoG and Wearying.

An average of 15 lifesteal doesn't justify bringing AoG, since scythe warriors (and scythe sins; can't forget those) can do better. Neither does 20 lifesteal, for that matter. Other than the unblockability vs enchanted foes which you feel is so useful, there's no reason to ever use AoG.

Well, no, I shouldn't say that; turns out AoG works wonders when you use it with a bow and the right skills. But for a scythe user? Uh uh. Your attack power is subpar, and so is your survivability (yes, scythe warrior beats you at that too). Never mind that self-healing is bad in PvE.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

05 Sep 2009 at 21:31 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Avatar of Melandru
Eternal Aura
Aura of Holy Might
Asuran Scan
Wearying Strike
Heart of Fury
Optional
Optional I tried that build several times. That avatar costs quite a bit, which makes recasting it hard. You either run in without it or wait. Perhaps you can give good suggestions for good optional fillers.

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

05 Sep 2009 at 23:23 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post

The reason scythe warriors beat dervishes with scythes is because they have strength and the ability to spam attack skills until the cows come home (which dervishes cannot unless they take zealous vow, and in that case they still don't have the benefits of strength). Constant attack skills + strength > AoG's lifesteal

No, no, no, you're missing the point. A party can only move as fast as it's slowest member. In other words, for an IMS to actually decrease the travel time, everyone has to have one, or else the people who have one will end up having to stop and wait for the others to catch up, nullifying any benefits of having it.

Last time I checked, heroes/hench don't need to cartography. H/H simply do not need to move as much for PvE, and like you said, dual FB! is not feasible in H/H. A permanent IMS will save nearly 10-20 minutes off of a VQ because of cartography alone + another few minutes by actual combat effects. There is no other single skill that can do that.

Quote: There are very few places in which you will face foes with blocking enchantments. Stance-based blocking is FAR more common. Have you ever been to EotN? Enchantments are nearly ubiquitous in EOTN. Stances are statistical outliers.

Quote: Yeah right nice try. You say something mildly relevant with no supporting evidence in hopes of appearing not like a troll. Let's face it, the only reason you posted was to post flamebait.

If you want to contribute to this thread, make an actual argument, please.

Quote:

If you're fighting without AoG, then you're suboptimal. Whether you need it or not is irrelevant. You don't even NEED an optimal build to beat everything in PvE. No, that's incorrect. AoG is not suboptimal.

Quote:

How can you say AoG's downtime is minor? Once again, either you let it run out and play without your elite, or you have to wait for it to recharge after the mob. So, either you play without an elite (and if you tell me your build is good without your elite I'll laugh), or you're wasting time (and if you tell me a build that requires you to wait 30 sec or more between mobs is good I'll also laugh). The downtime is incredibly minimal. Truthfully, against smaller skirmishes, you don't NEED AoG. The difference is very minimal. Against a large mob with a healer backline, you better believe that AoG will help a LOT. Added pressure will end a large fight on a non-linear scale. Thus, the time saved by using AoG is not a linear difference based on number of foes.

Even if you were to look at AoG completely linearly (which again, is completely wrong), at the very limit, the downtime is 1/4, which means worst case scenario, AoG will provide an average of 15 life AoE life steal. That's still pretty kickass. You can of course do better by smart usage. EA thus provides 100/30 + 5 = 8 DPS. I am nearly positive you can find a PvE skill that can do better.

IronSheik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Wolfenstein: Goldrush

Zombies Go Nom Nom [Nom]

06 Sep 2009 at 04:14 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc View Post

On the other hand, it's entirely feasible for dervs to maintain energy and spam attack skills with a zealous scythe and orders. Constant attack skills + AoG lifesteal + unblockability > constant attack skills + strength.

Okay, but then you're bring an orders just to keep up the dervs energy, and is only unblockable by enchanted, not stances, warriors win.

Last time I checked, heroes/hench don't need to cartography. H/H simply do not need to move as much for PvE, and like you said, dual FB! is not feasible in H/H. A permanent IMS will save nearly 10-20 minutes off of a VQ because of cartography alone + another few minutes by actual combat effects. There is no other single skill that can do that.

Not my arguement here.

Have you ever been to EotN? Enchantments are nearly ubiquitous in EOTN. Stances are statistical outliers.

Lols blocking

No, that's incorrect. AoG is not suboptimal.

Re read his statement, he said if you are not under AoG effects, you are crap.

The downtime is incredibly minimal. Truthfully, against smaller skirmishes, you don't NEED AoG. The difference is very minimal. Against a large mob with a healer backline, you better believe that AoG will help a LOT. Added pressure will end a large fight on a non-linear scale. Thus, the time saved by using AoG is not a linear difference based on number of foes.

For 30 seconds I'm totally kicking your ass in damage, and the other 90 I still am.

Even if you were to look at AoG completely linearly (which again, is completely wrong), at the very limit, the downtime is 1/4, which means worst case scenario, AoG will provide an average of 15 life AoE life steal. That's still pretty kickass. You can of course do better by smart usage. EA thus provides 100/30 + 5 = 8 DPS. I am nearly positive you can find a PvE skill that can do better. 12 char12char12char

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

06 Sep 2009 at 04:26 - 63

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

12 char12char12char IronShek, please take Ensign's advice and stop arguing with traversc.

On topic, dervs are a second-tier class, period. Both warriors and sins can out-damage them with scythes, and greatly out-damage them utilizing superior skills in other weapon lines. I you want to make a derv useful, it's going to have to be some oddball caster/support/ranged/something-other-than-melee build. Good luck finding one.

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

06 Sep 2009 at 08:47 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon View Post

IronShek, please take Ensign's advice and stop arguing with traversc.

Wow, you're totally not childish at all.

I've brought up completely valid points.
1) AoG is at least equivalent to WS in damage.
2) An IMS saves huge amounts of time compared to any other skill possible.
3) Unblockability is insanely useful a large majority of area of EoTN.

Quote:

On topic, dervs are a second-tier class, period. Both warriors and sins can out-damage them with scythes, and greatly out-damage them utilizing superior skills in other weapon lines. I you want to make a derv useful, it's going to have to be some oddball caster/support/ranged/something-other-than-melee build. Good luck finding one.

Okay, but then you're bring an orders just to keep up the dervs energy, and is only unblockable by enchanted, not stances, warriors win. But I wouldn't take orders "just to keep up the dervs energy." An orders is useful in its own right, even if it didn't give dervs energy. So is that "okay" an "okay, dervs CAN outdamage a scythe war?"

Quote:

For 30 seconds I'm totally kicking your ass in damage, and the other 90 I still am. How do you figure? Wearying provides deep-wound similarly to WS. AoG does 20 dmg per hit on top of wearying. I suppose you will bring up weakness condition as a counter argument, correct?

Look at it this way:
For the sake of argument, say that WS and Wearying do exactly the same thing, except wearying self-inflicts weakness. (I understand that WS is still slightly better even without considering weakness, but they're very similar.) A hero can remove it with FF every time costing the hero 3 energy and 1 second of time every ~6-7 seconds. AoG does 20 damage per hit. In 6-7 seconds, you hit ~5 times, dealing 100 damage with AoG. All else equivalent, by removing weakness, the hero effectively adds on 20 damage per hit compared to standard WS.

Thus, for an investment of two extra skill slots (one on you, one on hero), 1 second and 3 energy every 6-7 seconds, a hero is capable of doing 20*5 = 100 AoE damage. Agreed?

That's seems worth it to me, as that's above par for any skill option available.

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

06 Sep 2009 at 09:46 - 65

Ok. Stopping this right here,obvious where it's going and unless Paul Dawg asks for the thread to be unlocked it will stay closed.