allowing heroes to be used in GvG and HA

http://www.guildwars.com/events/cont...l_bar_contest/
AI abuse, just like an 8 man team, is a tatic, just that the knowledge of it is easy to comprehend and far spread.it should not be undermined just because we understand the mechanics of the Ai better than human players. AI abuse also come with its flaws too which many do not want to address when confronting the update changes.

the only difference between heroes and henchmen is customisation. the henchman that are coming out from xunlai contest are going to have the same AI as the heroes. does that mean we ban henchmen with AI that function better than human ability in pvp?

AI abuse is a small issue compared to player microing. player microing requires skill, it is not an innate AI. why should we deprive the expansion of more talented players from exhibiting their skills just so that they can win? It is not an unfair advantage if some1 has more control over more characters in a battle. i agree that player to player coordination is harder compared to microingas players lack communication, but it is reduced with the help of vent teamspeak etc. microing has noo "add-on" to help in it and unskilled players usually lose focus if they try to micro too quickly, thus it is equally difficult.

henchmen cannot comprehend complicated builds and would only make it worse for the team sometimes. thus microing is needed to add the fair advantage

heroes add a different game play to pvp. microing is an aspect of pvp that is overlooked but equally important in the realm of the competitive. microing and player coordination are 2 different situations and tatics, and it adds more creativity to the game.

it should be seen in the same light of Hero battles as heroes are allowed to be used in it and it adds colour to the gameplay.

adding heroes with fixed set of skills will stagnate and make gameplay stale. there will be builds revolved around countering those henchman builds and the creativity of the range of skill build design will be limited. GW is only better than other games because of the unique game play which is mostly made up of the skill build selection. GW pvp world is a constantly changing world and the builds keep changing too, with the static build of the henches, players would find it hard to adapt.

the fact is the underlying problem is not solved if heroes are being removed from gameplay. they play an important role to both skilled and unskilled players as they help find people within their skill range. there are already henchmen provided in this areas but the reason why they are not used is not because of the skill compatibility but the fact that it is stale and does not change with the meta. pvp is about counters of skill builds and synergy. skill compatibility could also be measured in its adaptation to the current pvp situation.it greatly limits the number of strategy present, and thus people would rather not play than use the henchemen, and it would only result in less people doing this pvp grounds.

what is the difference between a hero and a henchemen anyway other than the flexibility of skill build?

the context and intention are meant just for fillers for low ranked teams, but if high ranked teams are not using it,it just shows they are not compatible for play and does not serve the purpose of the group if it doesnt even work out for a win.

Anet can change the skill anytime and make builds obsolete. the only builds that survive are those 1.using underused skills that wont get change or 2.meta builds like shock axe WoH healer
the problem of the first is that underused skills dont usually compliment the meta and cant usually fit into most formations , while the problem of the second is that the playable builds are usually important enought to be needed to be taken by a player, and no one would ever let a henchmen play it for them eg. frontlines and infuse monks

(edit)

Just say no to heroes in PvP.
Besides, Little Thom has a trash mouth on vent.

If you say no to heroes in PvP then you should also say no to henchies in PvP. They are worse than heroes.

There's no diversity lost unless you're planning on not playing with a full team.

Heroes are easier to exploit (Tease Hero etc) and Henchmen can't be exploited really. Henchies are good for fooling around, but depending on your hero setup, you can actually play fairly serious with heroes and win some games because their AI is too "good" at certain tasks, better than any player, and you can make builds that exploit that AI. Henchmen have viable generic builds but nothing that couldn't be played better by a human a lot easier, and that's the key difference.

I agree heroes are easy to exploit and they also have the biggest game bug the game has ever seen. Many matches come down to corpse control in halls. example: Someone dies on a spike on altar in a king of the hill match. A hero gets a well of profaine up with no 40/40 faster then a necrotic traversel human can traverse to the corpse. You can not tell me that the necro is late because he uses pod and while pod is casting he has nt selected to be used right away after. Neither of them using 40/40 the 3 second cast well goes up before the 1 second cast nt. This is because the hero ai is actually casting the spell before the target is dead. It has been a huge problem for teams not actually running crappy hexways.

I fully support the removal of heroes and if people can't play with out the heroes then go pve please. High end pvp aka gvg is not for you.

Are some of you completely missing the posts where people want neither heroes nor henchmen in PvP?

Learn to make friends geez.

You just said it, henchmen suck. The team, who doesn't have enough human players would be in a HUGE disadvantage. How is this going to be a fair fight? So what is the point of taking part in GvG/HA if you dont have enough human players? Who would enter a pvp match to lose?

Therefore, having henchmen replace heroes is a stupid move. ANet might as well just remove heroes and do nothing else about it since they have been complaining how busy they are.

Daesu, if you don't have enough human players, then simply don't play pvp. Because pvp is about PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER NOT ABOUT HERO AI VS PLAYER.

I have no problem with AI in GvG, it just forces the players on the other team to micromanage a bit more, making them more susceptible to panic and overloading themselves. Although I think interrupt skills should have a lowered rate of use unless a human player pings an enemy is using Empathy or what-not, to SOMEWHAT emulate human reactions.

/facepalm
I apologize for my humor..(or lack there of)
MY point is exactly that, no heroes OR hench should be allowed.
The whole point of PvP is : Player vs. Player.
And before anyone QQ about the lack of f-list, guild, ect. being on at the same time you are...guesting is funzor.
If you wanna swim in the big pool with the 'good teams', get better, and make more friends. (Not an insult..just a fact)

Except for the part where the best teams are the ones that use heroes.

Then IMHO they aren't the best...they rely on hero/hench to carry them.

Right, because it takes less skill to micro additional characters!

Selket, Do you really think they herowayers micro their smiter hero, (max 1 skill, so hard...), hexer hero, me/rt tease hero?...
Don't make a joke of yourself please..

So I guess things I did to hold halls clearly never happened?

Tease claim resource, micro weapons, micro roj to actually kill things?

Nope never did those, it can't be possible. I guess I've never played with heroes before.

ther r moving heros from pvp soon

That's kind of like saying:

"What's the difference between a lump of clay and a rock?"

Customization is everything

yes you can make more friends and wait for same time join good guild etc

but using heroes is also part of strategic playing
you also need skills to micro hero to synergise in combos
some people purposely bring heroes just because they can coordinate better and i dont see a problem in that, it cant be considered unfair, if a person is good enough to play 2 people's role why deprive him the priveledge of doing so

if hero's AI is so bugged, wad is the diff with with henchmen AI anyway
hero AI btw is not that good for all classes or builds. it has its strengths and flaws and we shouldnt be so dismissive just because people are abusing its strength.

I don't agree with this so called contest and the only thing I agree with is removing heroes from PvP. They really should remove henchmen as well but they'd rather bloat the game more with useless things.

These are not a big deal to do actually. Interrupting a 3sec skill with a Hero is not a big accomplishment when you mainly focus on it. Microing roj should not be perfect you just press it and do your combo. Microing weapons? I'm sure Gwen catches spikes far better with weapons than you.

You just don't understand that if you bring a hero you abuse its assets (interrupts, AoE awareness, spike predictability...) to win the battles, not that you micro it good..


OP: If you want to play "Who can exploit heroes more" then go to HB (you have one more month).

Usually heroplayers are pretty bad.. Their heroes carry them to victory not their skill this is why they should be removed.

Nowadays with observer mode Guild Wars is about using your skillbar correctly (+tactics+blahblah+buildwars ) and not about creating that skillbar so don't come with this "explotigin hero ai takes skill" shit.

I just don't know why some people can't understand this game is about PvP not about Player versus exploited OP ai + bad players.

@above - if you really believe that, then nerf hero AI, not remove them from PvP.

Then we would achieve the same as now but with less dev time so it might be a solution(but don't nerf pve heroes!!).

Sounds like you're just really bad and don't like being replaced by a hero that can play better than you can. Especially since your argument went from PEOPLE DUN MICRO AT ALL to "o ya they micro its not hard". I'm sure I've won more halls matches with my tengu hat than the amount of times you've even made it to halls.

The first, and yet strongest arguement that makes all others obsolete:

It's PLAYER vs PLAYER.

No matter how good, or bad heroes are, No matter how much, or few people there are playing, If PvP becomes PvAI, it obviously is no longer PvP, but rather PvE.


(Don't compare this to NPC's - They have set "weak" bars, and little effect on the match in the longer run )


AI does not belong in PvP, ESPECIALLY NOT if it can determine the out come of the match...

I am sure you have more hours played in HA because I don't really like it..

And yes, a Tease hero is better than me with that bar.

"Selket, Do you really think they herowayers micro their smiter hero, (max 1 skill, so hard...), hexer hero, me/rt tease hero?...
Don't make a joke of yourself please.."

Okay maybe I shoul've written that max. 1 skill at every hero in a 1 minute period. >< sorry



^Very true.

So why should your opinion matter if you don't even play HA? The people that do well with heroes micro them often. The bad/mediocre players do not, and lose much more often.

They're pretty much removing AI from pvp completely. After all, how long do you think the henchies can stand up before an update breaks them and they become dead weight? Or do you really think they'll set aside a guy to go over hench skill bars after every update? Though I guess with the new rate of updates this can get drawn out a bit.

be happy that anet is making new henchman instead of removing every form of AI in pvp,

scrubs

Gwen owns you.
spread the word.

I'm suprised that this is causing so much upset.

It's called "Player versus Player" for a reason.

Shoo away now, y'hear?

The reason heroes shouldn't be in PvP is because of their effectiveness at playing 'gimmicky' shit like smiters and N/Rt healers or Me/Rt healers with interrupts.

The reason henchmen should is because it allows you to quickly grab one and enter an AT match when someone happens to drop 10 seconds before the match (not a rare occurence, trust me).

That being said it's not hugely important what bars the henchmen have.

Because I stopped playing HA when the meta was 2 assassins +4smiters+2monks and every RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing team ran this build with heroes and every match lasted for 15+minutes. From this on I mainly focus on GvG.

And the new henchmen are "players"? Right...

This update doesn't make sense either way.