The State of the Game...

Can we hold on until GW2?
- easily
Do we really want to?
- I do
When GW2 lands, will you desert GW1 for it, go to another game entirely or stay?
- I'm going to quit GW1 and go on to GW2.

No

Yeah

Yeah

I will play GW2 because of the lack of a monthly subscription.

I think the HoM and instance details will determine if I go to GW2 or not. If all we get are a couple shinies that don't mean much else, or if they're just way common, and if the perpetual world results in ganking, camping and all-out asshattery I'll probably just move on to another game or just stop playing computer games altogether. This is the only one I really play any more. By the time GW2 is out I should be full-swing into my career and building my toys (Jeep, car) so I probably won't have the time to play games anyway.

Guild Wars initially wasn't based on grinding, but that is definatey the state of the game now. It started in Factions, got bigger in Nightfall, and exploded in EOTN. Frankly, I think that had a bit of fault in driving people away.

I knew people who beat EOTN twice over and still had some armor smith NPCs that wouldn't give the characters the time of day. Rather than play through four or five times to make NPC's happy, they just left. And this was from some old guildmates that did play through the originals multiple times. They just did the originals with different characters each time. A little variety like that can add alot. (And yes, I know they could have played through with multiple characters on EOTN. It was more or less just a sense that they hadn't done everything that they needed to and should be working on titles for GW2 rather than moving to a second character.)


In my opinion the best PvE experience was Prophecies. Nightfall was better than Factions for PvE, and had a bit more polish since the dev team really seemed to be hitting their stride by the third game. But, to say that the PvE in Prophecies wasn't cared about just doesn't ring true.

None of the "grind" is REQUIRED to play through the game, minus elona-born chars. It's purely optional. You aren't punished by the game for not maxing titles and such, but you are rewarded if you do. The multiple ranks of titles are there to show the achievement from dedication and effort used to get your titles that high or for your alliance to own a town, and those people have the right to display their hard work.

And some people like grinding. I personally hate grinding, but GW is one of the few games that doesn't make it feel like I HAVE to grind if I don't want to.

I do as I want and generally just have fun playing, and I end up gaining title ranks and faction without really trying.

At level 2, Ether Nightmare does 5 degeneartion. At level 12, it does 8 degen.

For maxing asuran ranks, you get an additional 20 seconds on summon skills, and pain inverter does 40% more damage.

You need to get to rank 5 before some EOTN NPCs talk to you. I have finished the game with characters and not been this high in different ranks.

While I know you can get statistical equivalent armor, limiting access to content once you've finished the game is punishment for not grinding. Not having a high enough rank for build X has also gotten me kicked from groups for some areas. And I would consider that also as punishment for not grinding.

I'm not trying to troll here, I seriously am curious on your opinion, how underpowered do skills have to be, or what content must be cut off for it to fit your definition of punishment?

GW1 is fine...just sit in town sometime and look at how many "advanced" titles flash by. They take a significant time dedication so there has to be more than a handful of people still playing and interested enough to finish.

I agree with Clone and to be fair I think they noticed they screwed up with some of the grind and we got a slight fix with the scaling changes. Graphically EotN is very impressive but it did wander way into grind central. You can beat it in a matter of hours but why sprint when most of your content is locked because of title requirements.

Grind didn't bother me nearly as much as how some areas were designed. Arbor Bay/Varajar Fells are ridiculous and Zerg-like in how many enemies you have to wade through. Compare those to the new Charr groups which are surprisingly well designed, maybe among the best in PvE. You shouldn't need a sheer numerical advantage (450+ foes packed into a medium size zone) to provide a challenge to the average player.

First of all, I do understand your concern and value your opinion, and I speak purely out of discussion, not trying to attack you.

"Underpowered" is relative; yes, higher ranks are better, but even at lower ranks, most of these skills still give functionality. Ether Nightmare still removes energy and does a hexed degren, and there are other skills that complement hexed foes and empty energy pools. Summon skills still summon something that provides an extra target to distribute party damage, and the summoned creature still has skills, such as Immolate that provides burning, to work on. Rank 2 of Breath of the Great Dwarf still cures burning on the party as Rank 10. Personally, I don't get mad that I only have Rank 3 at the end of EOTN. And they are all PvE skills, so this doesn't affect people's ability for the entire other half of the game. Also, there are hundreds of other skills available. You gotta work with what you have, not delve on what you dont have.

The NPC's that are limited in EOTN are Consumables (3), Weapons (4), and Armor (5). Most chars are Rank 3 by finishing EOTN. You can still play the game without consumables. Weapons and Armor are purely aesthetics, which I know you know. They work like titles... achievements where you get to show off and show your dedication to getting that armor you wanted. They are considered "prestige" armor, and at least the cost of the sets are cheaper than campaigns prior.

Plus, I did agree with you... I hate grinding too... but I dont mind GW's because there are SO many options to go about it, and I can gain ranks without even trying (a.k.a. storybooks, shrine buffs, HM, dungeons, etc.) I can passively level my EOTN ranks without feeling like I am burdened to.

Being kicked from groups for not having "Build XYZ" is a punishment by the community, not the game. I have been kicked for not having certain builds, but I choose to avoid playing with those people. A little patience shows that there are others who are more open to other's builds as long as they can play like a champ, or just go with guildmates or in-game friends. I've been in plenty of groups where if the skills arent there, somebody else compromises for the team, or we discuss alternative ways to get it done. Sometimes, people ragequit before we start "Nobody has XXX? Screw that!", but we just fill up the spot and work with whatever we get.

The game beyond the lore and content is behind achievements. But I am sure you would agree that there is no sense in achievement if everybody gets all of the titles right away. At least ArenaNet designed the game to have a variety of different ways to gain those achievements to cater to as many playstyles possible.

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TLDR Version: You are only "burdened" by the "grind" if you let yourself feel like it, and you are only "punished" if you view it like that. You can choose to feel "achieved" by getting high ranks just by playing the game, and feel you are being "rewarded" if you view it like that. Otherwise, work with what you have, and if you simply continue playing the game, those title ranks will always increase (if you value higher ranks so much). The grouping barriers are only hyped up by the community, and its not really fair to put all of the blame on the game. It's not the end of the world that you dont have Rank XX or Skill YY since you have hundreds of other skills, and being "underpowered" is relative.

In the end, if you don't like it, don't play it. Don't go ruining it for everybody else by being a Negative Nancy or Debbie Downer, though. (Not speaking specifically about you, Clone.)

I know it is all "optional," but to that extent, so is playing the game. There is a huge amount of content that is tied to grind, most of it giving some pretty substantial advantages. With Anet obviously encoraging players to start grinding for GW2 by maxing titles for their monuments, I feel that this definately is the focus of the game. They've promoted it quite heavily, and despite being "optional", I'd still say it is encouraged, perhaps even expected. That goes for community based punishment of "you must have rank X". Anet has given the community the system by which players are deemed not worthing, and they know very well the system is used in that manner.

I know I'm being negative, but I'm doing it in hopes that they won't go any further down this road. I loved Propheceis, but every bit of grind and pay for stat boosts items they've added since then has left me more and more annoyed. However, I still want to voice these opinions since someone might be reading and shaping the direction for GW2. The talk of more grind including infinite leveling has me very concerned, and is a huge leap away from the original game that "wasn't about time spent playing" that I loved.

I've never even heard of it, and I've been playing for ~3 years.

1)Out of curiosity, what content is restricted by grinding? I can think of 2 pVe builds (SY and Old Ursan, the first one being paragon only and only 1 per team needed(aka acceptable in my book) , the later being nerfed because it WAS too powerful to be tied to grind) and Lightbringer giving noticeable advantage (but not on another powerlevel compared to non grinded) almost only in DoA, an elite area.

2)About being expected... Well, you are in a game populated mostly by gamers. Gamers play and playing after you've beaten the game means grinding one way or another. So it is logical for grind to be expected.
We also expect ANet to keep the required grind (that also means enough to be accepted in groups) low enough that it doesn't really feel like grinding. The rest of the game cna only be grinding.
Wether you feel like they acted according to expectations is up to debate.

Also, what groups really need rank X to enter. I can think of DoA for LightBringer and PvP (i know, they wanted pvp to be grind free), but beyond that...

3) It's kinda ironic whenever someone who's against grind mention Proph era. The prices were absurdly high for "needed" items (runes, 75k for sup Fire magic, anyone?), ectos were... reserved to 55 and nukers (necro of course) and money was harder to come by than now.

On the other hand, I'll agree with you, it is annoying. Even though I'm stilll more annoying that people seem to be dependent on FULL con sets. I mean, when your tanks are all SF-sins, do you really need them to be immune to crits AND have dmg reduction? How much time will the 100hp and +1 stats buy you? The only one which have any real impact on casters is celerity.

ANd last thing. Real infinite leveling would be stupid, the game would need to be either IMpossible for everyone save the full-time farmer, or ridiculously easy for half the players. Or both at the same time. I can only be cosmetic or a form of reputation ("how much of a hero are you?" kind of reput).
edit: and I forgot Pvp, where you will probably come back to lv 20.
Actually there's also the possibility of having monsters scaling to you... But I prefer to banish the tought.

Monsters scaling their level to players?

It was annoying in Final Fantasy VIII and I doubt it being good for any game. The game was actually easier the lower your level is.
It's REALLY annoying going around avoiding battles all the time to stay low-level.

I'd rather have something to make monsters appear in less numbers until almost extinction or nomad behavior so when people kill them a lot in one place they avoid it.

Crossing Tyria was a fansite much like this one and GWOnline (incgamers) and had been up for about 3 years I think. It is now closed down as on September 1st. It is/was listed on the Guild Wars site as an "Honored Fansite".

I'm sorry you missed it, but I'm sure others have heard of it or have been members there.

Grind was created by Anet because players asked for it. Thats the long and short of it, they just made it so you do not have to grind to be able to play or even finish the game.
My wife and I have the whole set and we've played the game for about 4 years now, we each have 3 maxed titles (the storyline ones) and arent even close to reaching max titles for anything else, we never grinded and never will simply because we play the game for fun.

If grind was required then we wouldnt be able to accomplish all that we have, yeah sure, we die more often because we dont have SY maxed out, so what?
Grind is still optional in GW imho.

Maybe GW2.. but for now: Aion FTW!

GW is dying since end 2006. It's peak was mid 2006.

He said Tied, not Required.

Example:

'Content' of Getting max vanguard title and its skill powers/title effects is vanquishing three areas over and over again.

The title is content and has content necessary to get it attached.

If we define content as something to do, GW has tons of grind-related content, like getting and consuming 10k point worth of consumable X.

I find it kind of alarming that there are so many doom-speakers talking about the death of the game, but oh well.

I think it's imperative for people not to let their own personal experience with a guild, an elite area, or other microcosm speak for the state of the game as a whole. I'm not going to go ahead and say that everything is bright, cheerful, and on the upswing, but I don't think now is the end of days either.

I've seen nothing but consistency, to be honest. You just have to come to terms that GW is a game of limited content. Though you can't "beat the game" so to speak, there exists a point where all your goals have been achieved. That could be wealth, titles, whatever, but that point does come. When that realization hits, players have a choice to make: 1) make new goals, 2) quit the game, or 3) appreciate the game for the social network it has allowed you to build. I myself am in the third camp. I've gotten my titles, my shiny objects, so I've moved on to helping people, to having fun with my friends. If you're always playing by yourself, or not building relationships with your groups/guilds, this game is going to get boring very quickly after you've achieved your personal goals. The game isn't fun for me because of the content, it's fun because of the people who play it.

I think that if people worried more about building relationships and less about title grinding and item farming, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but that's probably my hopeless optimism speaking for me.

Here's hoping that the people I've met in GW1 move on to GW2 when it comes out

well i hope everyone isnt expecting some great reward that passes on to GW2 for what you've done to fill your HoM. Anet has seem to always tried to keep things on a level playing field so whatever we get from the HoM wont cause any imbalance in the game. so things ive considered we might get, special set of weapon skins that are customized to your character like the bonus weapons in GW now, an emote of some kind showing your character has a past in GW1 or maybe an armor skin that only characters with a GW1 past can buy. ill bet they wont give out anything that can be used to make money on because of their trying to keep everyone equal apporach they have used in GW1. the lack of HoM info is the biggest reason ive still yet to get mine even 1/2 full yet. i didnt run out like alot of people did when it was announced stuff in your HoM would pass on to GW2.

as for the state of the game, well im in a 3 guild alliance that agreed about a year ago to stick together til GW2. we dont recruit and for the most part its been very dead for activity. its pretty clear that most towns are near empty all the time unless theres a reason to be there, like the z-missions or bounties. in the last few months ive even switched to playing in the international districts just to get away from some of the stuff i can careless to see. although the gold sellers and acount buyers are still active in GToB. ive been reporting as much as i can when i go there to pick up the bounties, which makes me wonder at times how come those NPC's arent availible in the guild halls if you have one?

^^^^ This ^^^^

Heh, those voices have been on this board for years now, the game seems to survive anyway

GW is still alive, its not at its peak for sure but, quite remarkably for a game 4 years old, its still garnering new followers. So, yeah, its past its prime but its still, even for a 4 yr veteran like myself, enjoyable.

This is very true although, I do still enjoy playing the game itself, I never really had any goals I set but when Prophecies was the only iteration there wasnt that much you could set as a goal either. No titles then
Over 4 years we've made a lot of friends in GW, including RL friends...if anything thats the biggest titletrack there is.
Oh, I still have this notion that one day I'll manage to get the Kind of a Big deal title though, I hope to accomplish this sometime before GW 2 comes out

Aye, wise words indeed.

Well spoken... Are you my Doppelganger

Amen. I agree completely up to this point.


But it's here that I differ. I did find that when I jumped back in - and got all the joy and satisfaction that I did years ago - that the heavy focus on Dungeons, Speed Clears, High-level item farming, etc. tended to exclude me. In my silliness, I was playing characters I found FUN, Ranger and Dervish. Unfortunately, I needed a Necro, Sin, or Monk to be 'useful' to anyone in these tasks.

Thankfully, there is enough content that I can H/H my way through areas I'd never been before. So, I've taken that time to create a Sin, unlock / capture skills, and supplement my weapons and armor to get a strong PvE platform (a MS/DB Sin, with req runes and weaps, 3 Necro Heroes with req runes and skills for SABway and Discordway, D/N Arcane Orders Hero, etc.) Soon I think, I can join people on VSF farms and Speed Clears, and EotN dungeons. :-)

Amen once again. I was severely burned by a certain Star Wars MMO long ago, and I have loved GW for all the things it is and isn't.

Wait...Crossing Tyria's gone? Why? I used to be in CTG (Crossing Tyria Guild) back when the game was new and we won guild of the week! That is sad news indeed.