Farming variants...what's next for the chop?

Axeman002

Axeman002

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2008

A/Mo

Let see how many different kinds of farms there are i.e solo or duo, WHEN SF gets nerfed these will be a fallback ....the question is whats the next to get QQ'd at and why...so:-

600/smite....needs nerfed with SF imo nerf prot spirit of Spell Breaker.

MB ele...gonna get nerfed anyway..i dont know much about the build.

55 builds..e.g 55 monk/necro/ele etc...will all die with a prot spirit nerf.

melandru's touch ranger..not 100% effective but still works.

duo trappers..this will probably go back into ToA when SF is nerfed.

330/105 rit...also will die with prot spirit nerf.

There is more i just cant think atm like derv and warrior, but if you look i reckon Prot spirit may need a nerf too, just to cheer these 'SF is bad.. 600 is good' people up.

600 is as bad as SF to me, you can vanquish anywhere...run nearly all ELITE dungeons u can farm UW (if they thought hard enough they could clear UW and FoW pretty fast) so in theory 600 can do MORE than any SF farmers can...

So how many have i missed and how should they be nerfed?...and also why would you like to see a nerf?

My vote.....Nerf Prot spirit please Anet, maybe make it removed when a heal spell is cast on target.

also i like the idea of making ectos customized...that should instantly solve the games economy lol

Coverticus

Coverticus

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

The Zodiac Elites [TZE]

Mo/

Quote:
My vote.....Nerf Prot spirit please Anet, maybe make it removed when a heal spell is cast on target
For one, 600s rarely (if ever) use heal spells, only prots. Sure it will break a 55 though.
One slight problem with what you are wanting there - breaks everything else when using Protective Spirit in teamplay, would become redundant (unless monks purely used prot spells and the healer monk (for example) knew to leave that ally well alone).

If you wanted to make it harder (keeping farming alive still) make protective spirit not self targetable.

(at work atm, would love to post more)

Songbringer

Songbringer

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

EastCoast

E/Me

Thats idiotic. Make ectos customized...it is a rare material not a darn festival hat. Prot spirit won't get nerfed for farming when it would break it for everything else.

Kattar

Kattar

EXCESSIVE FLUTTERCUSSING

Join Date: Mar 2007

SMS (lolgw2placeholder)

Me/

They've stated a few times that they know solo-ing is difficult in GW, so they take a long hard look at any solo builds before messing with them (intentionally messing with them anyway).

I don't think they'll be changing anything else anytime soon. How long did it take them to start looking for a "fix" to Shadow Form?

Darcy

Darcy

Never Too Old

Join Date: Jul 2006

Rhode Island where there are no GW contests

Order of First

W/R

ANet isn't looking to kill all farming builds.

Gift3d

Gift3d

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Las Vegas

Enraged Whiny Carebears [oR]

W/E

The way to nerf farming isn't to nerf skills, not at all.

Think about it. How many times has a relatively new farm been released with great drop rates, then all of a sudden the drop rates went to crap, like bergen hot springs. That effectively nerfed the farm without decimating skills that wouldn't make any sense to begin with.

600/smite is the fastest, most flexible, and safest way to farm in general. Nerfing that will be difficult because it's either nerf a skill that has tons of use in pvp and other pve gameplay (spirit bond, prot spirit), or nerf a skill so that it'll only make it take a little longer to get through mobs (holy wrath, retribution).

ischuros

ischuros

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2006

Ireland

N/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gift3d View Post
The way to nerf farming isn't to nerf skills, not at all.

Think about it. How many times has a relatively new farm been released with great drop rates, then all of a sudden the drop rates went to crap, like bergen hot springs. That effectively nerfed the farm without decimating skills that wouldn't make any sense to begin with.
Problem with that is that the farmers will move onto another area, and when the 'real' players come along to those areas, they get diddely squat.

Xanthe Dashka

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2009

Epic QQ thread.

The spiritspammer will be QQ'ed about when SF gets nerfed.

Anet is smart... they will tell the testcrew to balance SF. But the obvious turns out that even the testcrew will fail and get flamed for whatever they do with the skill. Hope those testcrew have a thick skin. :P

rabwatt

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/Me

I thinking they dont want to nerf any farming build, but may pick on the "worst / best" one to appease certain players.

Why dont I think that? Well a lot of the farming centres around Ecto..... Anet could easily do away with the need for ecto by increasing how much plat you can trade and increasing the plat you can have in your storage, but they choose not

theraven000

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2007

Every time I hear about a prot spirit nerf...I die a little inside.

Xsiriss

Xsiriss

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

Dungeon running is where it's at and where most of the money comes from...Possible frog sceptre every 4mins FTQ.Q

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

rabwatt: Much, much too late for that. No question that the design decision was poor. But the existing system is sufficiently entrenched that lifting the gold cap would either lead to absolute chaos or do nothing. Any effective cure would be worse than the disease.

OT: The PvE/PvP split makes it possible to nerf 605. But the build is much, much less efficient than SF. It requires two players where SF required one. It's slower because it cannot bypass fights. (Ex: It takes a 605/smiter about 35 minutes to clear HM Sepulchre of Dragrimmar. It takes me ten using a fully defensive SF character and a character to kill the boss with.) It's vulnerable to deep enchant strips, so altering the skills monsters carry rather than the skills themselves can slow the build further.

The ability for two characters to clear numerous areas is OP, perhaps, but it is not gamebreaking. The game breaks when a method or approach is vastly faster than all alternatives. It is the ability of SF to bypass opposition and mitigate damage while still leaving room on the skill bar for damage that creates the problem.

It's extremely unlikely that we'll see a 605 nerf in the near future.

Shayne Hawke

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

600/Smite is too powerful, but nothing else you listed really seems that extreme.

Damian Manson

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

D/

Hmm so from what i read in your op is that

1/ you want to nerf prot spirit that is on an entirely different plain from sf just cause sf is getting looked at and that you dont think you could pull off 600/55/330rt/ anything with PS so want to nerf it for revenge.

2/you want ectos to be customised so that all the games wealth from ectos become redundant in one update and only be able to be sold for the gold there in turn making them worth next to nothing ie there 100g sell price.

well i think i got that in my head but you dont make much sense and sinse i will take 600/smite as an example using them yes they can do alot in game but the pay off is it needs 2 people to pull off and it takes alot longer to do than what sf takes which allows you to just run past mobs where 600/smite have to fight.

lol martin alvito just beat me to some of the things i mentioned
just a thing btw i dont use sf and also nor do i use 600/smite so you cant say i just want to save a certain build lol

hmm well lets see where this ends up more than likely a close from almost every other thread that starts like this but we will see

Captain Bulldozer

Captain Bulldozer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2008

Servants of the Dragon Flames [SODF]

I really doubt there will ever be any kind of nerf to the 600/smite, 55 and 330 rit builds. While its true that these (particularly 600/smite) can farm a lot of places, none of them is particularly over-powered. Even though 600/smite can run about half the dungeons in HM, it is not the ABILITY to do that which matters, it is the TIME it takes to do it. Taking 40 minutes to an hour to do a dungeon is not really broken and does not flood the market. Taking 8 minutes to do UW (or a dungeon other than Frontis or Snowmen) is just plain faster than was ever intended by a lot. In addition, 600/smite and 330 rits don't really do well in NM in most places, and 55 is pathetically fragile in all but a handful of zones. Anet is concerned with how wide spread the usage of OP skills is, hence why Ursan got the nerf only when people started using it for trivial tasks and now the same has become true of SF.

As for a prot spirit nerf, no. That's just the worst possible idea I can image.

Painbringer

Painbringer

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

Minnesota

Black Widows of Death

W/Mo

Protective Spirit -While enchanted with Protective Spirit the next attack damage against you is limited to 10-5 percent of your current hp 5-10 second enchantment double divine HP bonus 5 energy and a 5 second recharge.

Signet of Spirits please don't touch pretty please with an ecto on top. Its extremly slow to solo anything, but gives my ritulist something to do besides hold storage items.

Shadow Form (change to Stance)-all spells against you have a 25-50% chance of spell failure (both allied and enemy) physical attacks against you have a 50-75% chance to miss when attacking you.

10 energy 10-20 second duration 45 second recharge

Killamus

Guest

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito View Post
OT: The PvE/PvP split makes it possible to nerf 605. But the build is much, much less efficient than SF. It requires two players where SF required one. It's slower because it cannot bypass fights. (Ex: It takes a 605/smiter about 35 minutes to clear HM Sepulchre of Dragrimmar. It takes me ten using a fully defensive SF character and a character to kill the boss with.) It's vulnerable to deep enchant strips, so altering the skills monsters carry rather than the skills themselves can slow the build further.
Except that there are very few areas where SF can be solo'd. In DoA, it requires a bonder, as well as a full team to clear it. This can clear DoA in about an hour, but 600/smite/QZ can clear a single section in about 20-30 minutes. Double the time, true, but that's 3 people. So they're more then able to take 5 runners and make a TON more cash that way, more then just doing a DoASC.

Same with underworld, 600/smite can effectively clear the entire UW, although it does take a while.

I love how people keep bringing up "Omfg people do this in 8 minutes nerfbatnerfbatnerfbat" until I want to hit them with a REAL bat. 8 minute SCs are done perhaps 1/10000 times, even by the elite. Mountains blocked? Add in another minute or so. Your wastes sin overaggro? Add in a few more minutes. Some idiot walk next to a terrorweb, and now two are dead? That's probably close to 10 minutes extra time. Seriously, the majority of UWSCs are probably guild-based now, but there are still a significant amount of PuG groups. Even the guild-based ones are hard-pressed to get <15 minutes, and I have yet to see a pug group that's <15 minutes.

Yes, 30 minutes to clear the UW IS too fast. But the way I see it, if they kill shadow form as a viable tanking tool, the UW is going to be dead (No pun intended) as soon as the build comes out. Because, let's face it, doing it balanced is about as fun as pulling teeth, and no one is going to waste 3-4hours for an ecto or two and 2 crappy chest drops. Now, even at 30 minutes/run, an ecto or two and 2 crappy chest drops still isn't the best farming area. Feather farming would give you more then that. However, it's easy to do, and as such it brings the UW down to more "Normal" play.

I personally find it enjoyable. I do mountains when I can simply for the challenge of doing it.

Note that challenge != waste 5 hours meticulously pulling groups and then smacking them down. That's not challenging, that's just time consuming.

If they did remove shadow form, I would vote to increase UW (Not FoW - That's easy enough with a balanced party) to a 10 or 12 party max. Actually...
It'd be pretty cool if the UW was a town, and you could go and explore it, and you could enter it similar to like Urgoz.

pinguinius

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killamus View Post
Note that challenge != waste 5 hours meticulously pulling groups and then smacking them down. That's not challenging, that's just time consuming.

If they did remove shadow form, I would vote to increase UW (Not FoW - That's easy enough with a balanced party) to a 10 or 12 party max.
Maybe if they added res shrines a la the EotN dungeons, the immense pressure to bring the "best" party would be somewhat alleviated and people would be more likely to run balanced groups. I bet lots of people would whine about "casuals" though.

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killamus View Post
Except that there are very few areas where SF can be solo'd. In DoA, it requires a bonder, as well as a full team to clear it. This can clear DoA in about an hour, but 600/smite/QZ can clear a single section in about 20-30 minutes. Double the time, true, but that's 3 people. So they're more then able to take 5 runners and make a TON more cash that way, more then just doing a DoASC.
We should blame the Zaishen quests for creating a market for running players through DoA then, no? There was little reason to pay for a run previously; if you had gemstones in quantity you were able to complete an area to exchange them.

But if getting run through DoA is worth 210 zcoins (market value +/- 4k via eventual conversion to Heavy Equipment Pack), and 2k, then paying 6k to a runner turns a profit. You get to leech drops and collect two gemstones from the end chest, and the Zquest underwrites the cost of paying for the run.

Isn't it neat how an update intended to promote teamplay ends up promoting running?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killamus View Post
If they did remove shadow form, I would vote to increase UW (Not FoW - That's easy enough with a balanced party) to a 10 or 12 party max.
You do realize that we were doing HM UW in 35-40 minutes before Bleys persuaded Tis to let him bring the SF sin to clear Chamber, right? And that was with all kinds of inefficient stuff (eg: two Ursan, a Necro and a healer clearing Vale, no SF anywhere) in the team build. 10-12 man UW would be very nearly as bad as things are right now.

HM UW is very, very easy if you know what you're doing, and will continue to be easy once SF is nerfed. Nerfing SF will slow down the UW/SoO groups. It won't stop them.

Ebony Shadowheart

Ebony Shadowheart

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

USA

SSW

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinguinius View Post
Maybe if they added res shrines a la the EotN dungeons, the immense pressure to bring the "best" party would be somewhat alleviated and people would be more likely to run balanced groups. I bet lots of people would whine about "casuals" though.
This is an elite area, not a dungeon, therefore it shouldn't have res shrines. You die, you're out. It's the same way in: FoW, DoA, Urgoz, and the Deep.

'Casual' players can still do this, in a decent amount of time if they use their brains when they play instead of just rushing around and aggroing everything on the map.

pinguinius

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebony Shadowheart View Post
This is an elite area, not a dungeon, therefore it shouldn't have res shrines. You die, you're out. It's the same way in: FoW, DoA, Urgoz, and the Deep.

'Casual' players can still do this, in a decent amount of time if they use their brains when they play instead of just rushing around and aggroing everything on the map.
My point was that the idea of an elite area is not conducive to balanced play. There are usually balanced groups forming for the day's ZQuest. I haven't seen a balanced UW or FoW group forming in years. Nerfing one farming build doesn't make people run with a normal group, they just move onto the next farming build or quit playing that zone.

So maybe the idea of a huge area where one mistake can ruin the hours-long run is not attractive to most people. Not that it will ever happen, just a thought.

Ebony Shadowheart

Ebony Shadowheart

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

USA

SSW

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinguinius View Post
My point was that the idea of an elite area is not conducive to balanced play. There are usually balanced groups forming for the day's ZQuest. I haven't seen a balanced UW or FoW group forming in years. Nerfing one farming build doesn't make people run with a normal group, they just move onto the next farming build or quit playing that zone.

So maybe the idea of a huge area where one mistake can ruin the hours-long run is not attractive to most people. Not that it will ever happen, just a thought.
Oh I agree, nerfing one build still won't force people to build balanced teams. Hell, nerfing all of the farming builds still won't accomplish that because some people simply refuse to PuG areas like that. Partly because one idiot can ruin the whole thing, as you pointed out, but also simply because some just don't like PuGing in general.

You still occasionally see balanced teams attempting to form (took one to UW myself 2 weekends ago) but they tend to get drowned out in the 'looking for mnts, pits, pools' or 'hb looking for manly' spam.

I wasn't trying to be snappish with my previous comment, and I can understand where you're come from, but res shrines just shouldn't be in those areas.

Edit: My terrible typos

Another Felldspar

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2006

Alchemy Incorporated

Mo/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito View Post
OT: The PvE/PvP split makes it possible to nerf 605. But the build is much, much less efficient than SF. It requires two players where SF required one. It's slower because it cannot bypass fights. (Ex: It takes a 605/smiter about 35 minutes to clear HM Sepulchre of Dragrimmar. It takes me ten using a fully defensive SF character and a character to kill the boss with.) It's vulnerable to deep enchant strips, so altering the skills monsters carry rather than the skills themselves can slow the build further.
But, the 600/smite team infuses much more gold into the economy for just this reason. 600/smiters kill things, and those deaths result in cash. SF'ers do dungeon runs for the chance of a rare item falling, but rares don't infuse cash, they just shuffle it around. Selling all the crap drops is what pumps cash into the economy.

Ectos from the speed runs don't fall at any better rate than ectos from any number of other solo farms. Speed clears just combine the ecto farming with the end chest farming. And, along the way they open up a gold sink in the form of consumable crafting. 600's usually don't.

I use my monk for 600 farming and I have recently leveled a sin that I'm using for farming a little bit. The monk is a steady source of income. I'm still hoping for a killer drop for 'sin -- haven't gotten it yet.

Axeman002

Axeman002

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2008

A/Mo

i dont disagree with SF getting a nerf, as skill balances are part of this game we just havent seen many good ones recently, but to me the whole point of the game from day one was to make builds run area's as fast and efficient as possible..which has happened and is now way overdue a nerf for us to learn a new way.

the only reason i mentioned 600/smite is people cry on about SF groups being overpowered..its not really its just became the lazyway to do a dungeon/elite area (look at how fast 600/smites do DTSC or MQSC)...sins cant do nothing there.

as for the times, i wont run a group doing a dungeon thats gonna take 2 hours ...when i have a build that will do it in 20 minutes, i cannot understand why people prefer slower builds but thats just a personal gripe i have.

and the ecto thing was just for a laugh lol

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayelet Feldspar View Post
But, the 600/smite team infuses much more gold into the economy for just this reason. 600/smiters kill things, and those deaths result in cash. SF'ers do dungeon runs for the chance of a rare item falling, but rares don't infuse cash, they just shuffle it around. Selling all the crap drops is what pumps cash into the economy.
True, but it's clear that the rate of ecto generation is outpacing the rate of cash generation. Otherwise the price of ecto at the trader would not be creeping down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayelet Feldspar View Post
Ectos from the speed runs don't fall at any better rate than ectos from any number of other solo farms.
lolwut?

Suppose that you 605/smite the smite crawlers. Two players create an average of two ecto (one each) in ten minutes.

A good speed clear produces around ten ecto every fifteen minutes distributed over eight players. The chest then tosses another six or so ecto at them. A bad speed clear takes twice as long to finish.

Now, if the 8 man speed clear divided into four 605/smite teams to clear the crawlers, they would be generating eight ecto every ten minutes. But the good speed clear is creating sixteen every fifteen, which is about a third more efficient before you consider the expected value of other chest drops.

Of course, the bad speed clear is losing to the 605/smite on ecto drops, although stuff like EBlades, CCs and VSes probably mean the speed clear creates more value.

Now, you might assume that most speed clears are bad, and that nerfing SF will just increase the amount of ecto in the system except for one thing...

SUBSTITUTION EFFECTS!

If UWSC gets nerfed, the good speed clears will go elsewhere, because they can crush the return of +/- 25k per hour on smite farming! In short, they will stop producing ecto.

Nerfing SF would slow down the rate of ecto generation, unless you want to make the following heroic assumptions:

1) The ratio of good speed clears to bad ones is not just low, it is extremely low. (1:99 rather than, say, 1:9).
2) Every bad UWSC would immediately turn to smite farming or other UW solos.

The odds that both of these assumptions are true is quite low.

Mouse at Large

Mouse at Large

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Scotland

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axeman002 View Post
Let see how many different kinds of farms there are i.e solo or duo, WHEN SF gets nerfed these will be a fallback ....the question is whats the next to get QQ'd at and why...so:-

<snip>

MB ele...gonna get nerfed anyway..i dont know much about the build.

<snip>
Lolwut????? Please show me the uberpowerful MB ele farming build. I believe there has been some QQing about MB eles in PvP, but from what I've seen, the meta has coped. R/A seems to be the current problem.......

Owik Gall

Owik Gall

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

Guardians of the Light

W/Mo

Anet will nerf farms and farming builds accordingly. However, they are very hesitant to do so as it took a long time for them to try and fix SF and it's now because they saw the skill being way too prevalent and abused. In the same sense, they didn't even want to do anything to Ursan because it made people group more. Granted, most team members had Ursan.

So, I imagine after they fix the problems associated with SF they won't do anything else to other farming builds unless we see one that's abused. 600 would be the next candidate, but this requires like 2 or three more healers to make the run work. Plus, it takes a while. It's not as fast as SF builds in my opinion. More importantly this team build won't work every where. I've even heard there are difficulties pulling this off in elite areas, specifically the faction elites. Bottom line, if this requires a team, it's no problem to Anet and that means they won't be doing anymore farming nerfs anytime soon after SF fix.

Age

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

This thread has failer written all over it just because the OP is a Sin.

FengShuiDove

FengShuiDove

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Trinity of the Ascended [ToA]

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Age View Post
This thread has failer written all over it just because the OP is a Sin.
And, using the same logic, your post is invalid because your profession is listed as a Monk .

Regardless, I'm with the folks here that say that Speed Clears won't slow down and runs won't stop until the fundamental problems of the areas themselves are looked into. Forcing more killed foes instead of skipping to key ones, etc., is going to be the only way to stop it.

I also proposed something in an older thread about scaling rewards based on time... so (with caps at either end) a group that takes their time and finishes an area "balanced" has a better chance at good drops, while a faster team has worse end drops but more opportunities in the same time period.

However, this thread is about what farming variant is next for nerf. Obviously SF, since they've publicly stated they're looking into SF and Speed Clears. However, the uproar over 600/smite is high, so it'll probably be nerfed similarly, then both will be replaced and the QQ will resume.

Esprit

Esprit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Dvd Forums [DVDF]

E/

Meh, just leave the farming alone. It lowers prices for high-end items, which is win all the way around, except for people who need more in-game gold.