Enchantment Spam

My Dervish can use a scythe quite well. If you feel a Warrior or Assassin can use a scythe better, maybe the problem is with the Warrior and Assassin. I still haven't seen you list any enchantments that SHOULD be spammed. All of the enchantments I use work well for their current energy cost and recharge times. Changing this would mean something is wrong. Please tell me what is wrong.

What enchantment(s) do you want to 'spam' and why do you want to spam them?

LIIIIITLE Problem with your mysticism. at 16 every potential enchantment costs 1 energy, even a 25 energy enchant would still cost 1 (16*6=96). At 17 or above you would gain energy for casting one. I can already see a D/Mo enchant spammer. 4 is the maximum to never go over (you can get 21 temporarily), and then it's underpowered.

Because you say Dervish is underpowered when it isn't. Since Dervish is balanced at present, if you're experiencing difficulty playing it then it means the problem is with you specifically. I would be just fine with that if you didn't whine on the forums about your lack of ability.

I actually made a Dervish and rolled through Nightfall; did not experience difficulty finding groups in NM or playing through HM with H/H (there are usually no HM PUGs except for ZQ). Having seen for myself that the Dervish isn't underpowered at all, I deleted the character because I need that PvP slot for PvP

Because a Dervish is a melee physical damage dealer with good survivability and good damage output, ideal for soaking up enemy damage and helping the party's Spirit Spammer kill things.

If you want a character of that sort on your team (I'm prone to putting together pure caster teams in PvE, myself, but that also boots out Warrior and Assassin just as it does the Dervish) then a Dervish is an excellent choice.

*sigh*

Here we go...

First, survivability:

Most of the best skills for survivability in the dervish's arsenal lie in earth prayers, which can be used by Warriors and Assassins. A dervish can use runes to get a point or so more in it, but let's not forget the energy management advantages that the warrior and sin possess (the only way a dervish can compete is with zealous vow, and with that skill your energy regen is even worse than a warrior's unless you're attacking, which you aren't doing while you're casting spells).

Furthermore, Warriors have their natural 80-100 base armor as well as Lion's Comfort. Hence, they are tougher than dervishes.

Assassins get critical agility and critical defenses, so they too are tougher than dervishes.

Enchantment spam:

Enchantment spam sucks. If we ignore energy, the most dps you can get out of enchantment spam is Mirage Cloak + Signet of Pious Light (around 60 earth damage in 1.25 sec). Of course, there's no way you'd have the energy to spam that, but even if you did the scythe can easily beat it. So, then comes the conditions that dervishes can inflict with their enchantments. Bleeding and Burning are degen, which is damage (still doesn't let enchantments compete with the scythe). Blinding and Weakness are outclasses by SY!. That just leaves crippling.

Now, attack power:

Let's assume some full-out damage builds.

Dervish gets AoHM, Asuran Scan, "By Ural's Hammer!", Zealous Vow, Mystic Sweep, Eremite's Attack, Protector's Strike, and HoF (12+1+1 SM, 11+1 Mys, 6+1 Wind)

Warrior gets AoHM, AS, BUH, Flail, WE, MS, EA, and PS (12 SM, 12+1+1 Str)

Assassin gets AoHM, AS, Critical Agility, MS, EA, Victorious Sweep, Critical Eye, and Way of the Master (12 SM, 12+1+1 Crit)

Raw Damage = avgdmg*noncritrate + max*1.41*critrate
Derv = 25*(1-0.196) + 41*1.41*0.196 = 31.43076
War = 25*(1-0.17)+41*1.41*0.17 = 30.5777
Sin = 25*(1-0.55)+41*1.41*0.55 = 43.0455 (WoTM, crit strikes, and CEye)

Damage Rating = 5*threshold + 2*(rank-threshold) + AoHM
Derv = 64 + 32 = 96
War and Sin = 60 + 32 = 92

Armor Effect (60 AL) = 2^( (DR - AL(1-AP) )/40)
Derv = 1.866065983
War (no AP) = 1.741101127
War (w/ AP) = 2.0139111
Sin = 1.741101127

Keep in mind that armor penetration becomes more useful as enemy armor increases.

Assuming no one is under 50% health, BUH will last 1/3 of the time.

Dmultiplier
Derv and War = 1.2*1.15*1.75*(1+(.25*.33)) = 2.6142375
Sin = 1.2*1.15*1.75*1.25 = 2.415

Effective Damage = RD*AE*Dmulti + 5 (assuming vampiric mod here, because it adds most damage)
Derv = 158.3299234
War (no AP) = 144.179045
War (w/ AP) = 165.9867568
Sin = 185.995963

Now, attack skills.

Energy shouldn't be much of an issue with all three of these builds. So:

Attack Speeds:
Autoattack (no IAS) = 1.75 sec
Autoattack (IAS) = 1.17 sec
MS/EA (no IAS) = .75 sec
MS/EA (IAS) = .5 sec
PS (no IAS) = .5 sec
PS (IAS) = .34 sec

2/3 of the time HoF will be up for the dervish, so the average attack speeds will have to reflect that. The war and sin each have a maintainable IAS.

Dervish Average Attack Speeds:
Autoattack = (1.75 + 1.17)/2 = 1.46 sec
MS/EA = (.75 + .5)/2 = .63 sec
PS = (.5 + .34)/2 = .42 sec

Assume a consistent 3 enchantments (after all, other people are enchanting you too), enemy is not moving, and 2 foes being hit on average. So MS adds +30 damage for derv (+27 for wars and sins), EA adds +20 for derv (+18 for wars and sins), VS adds +25 damage, and PS adds nothing (but still has quick activation).

Dervish
Action | Time | Damage | Total | Recharge at
MS | .63 sec | 188 | 188 | 4.63 sec
EA | 1.26 sec | 178 | 366 | 5.26 sec
PS | 1.68 sec | 158 | 524 | 4.68 sec
AA | 3.14 sec | 158 | 682 | N/A
AA | 4.6 sec | 158 | 840 | N/A
N/A | 4.63 sec | 0 | 840 | N/A
MS | 5.26 sec | 188 | 1028 | 9.26 sec
EA | 5.89 sec | 178 | 1206 | 9.89 sec
PS | 6.31 sec | 158 | 1364 | 9.31 sec
AA | 7.77 sec | 158 | 1522 | N/A
AA | 9.23 sec | 158 | 1680 | N/A

1680 dmg in 9.23 sec = 182.02 dps

Warrior
Action | Time | Damage | Total | Recharge at
MS | .5 sec | 192 | 192 | 4.5 sec
EA | 1 sec | 184 | 376 | 5 sec
PS | 1.34 sec | 166 | 542 | 4.34 sec
AA | 2.51 sec | 144 | 686 | N/A
AA | 3.68 sec | 144 | 830 | N/A
AA | 4.85 sec | 144 | 974 | N/A
MS | 5.35 sec | 192 | 1166 | 9.35 sec
EA | 5.85 sec | 184 | 1350 | 9.85 sec
PS | 6.19 sec | 166 | 1516 | 9.19 sec
AA | 7.36 sec | 144 | 1660 | N/A
AA | 8.53 sec | 144 | 1804 | N/A
AA | 9.7 sec | 144 | 1948 | N/A

1948 dmg in 9.7 sec = 200.82 dps

Assassin
Action | Time | Damage | Total | Recharge at
MS | .5 sec | 213 | 213 | 4.5 sec
EA | 1 sec | 204 | 417 | 5 sec
VS | 2.17 sec | 211 | 628 | 6.17 sec
AA | 3.34 sec | 186 | 814 | N/A
AA | 4.51 sec | 186 | 1000 | N/A
MS | 5.01 sec | 213 | 1213 | 9.01 sec
EA | 5.51 sec | 204 | 1417 | 9.51 sec
AA | 6.68 sec | 186 | 1603 | N/A
VS | 7.85 sec | 211 | 1814 | 11.85 sec
AA | 9.02 sec | 186 | 2000 | N/A

2000 dmg in 9.02 sec = 221.73 dps


Ok, I guess I should have specified this earlier. This is about the dervish in PvE. I don't PvP much, and therefore don't know how useful the dervish is there.

It's becoming clear that people are misunderstanding what I mean when I say the dervish sucks (my fault, really; should have used "suboptimal"). I'm not saying the class is unusable. Far from it. In fact, if it weren't for scythe sins and scythe warriors beating dervishes at just about everything, then the class would be fine.

Circular reasoning detected. I'm wrong about dervishes being underpowered because I suck at playing them because I think they're underpowered.

Under that line of logic, I could argue that you must suck at playing rits because you think Spawning Power is still near-useless, despite the fact that it contains Boon of Creation and Feast of Souls, increases the length of weapon spells, and makes spirits tougher (the latter two are especially important, because they ensure that the ritualist will be the best at what it does). I'm not saying I actually think you're a bad rit player (I suspect you're quite good), but it gets the point across.

And even if you could demonstrate that I lack skill, that still wouldn't invalidate my argument. If a person with an IQ of 60 says that 1+1=2, are they any less correct? Of course not. Math is math.

Once again, a class' ability to get into a PUG does not reflect how useful it actually is. It only reflects the community's opinion of how useful it is. A huge portion of the community believes that pure redbar monks are the way to go. Does that mean we're all wrong about prot being more useful?

You can get through PvE with mending on your bar. The true measure of effectiveness in PvE is not what works (because even crappy builds will often work), but what works better. Scythe sins and scythe warriors simply work better than dervishes. They pump out more damage and soak more damage. And they do it to a high enough degree that there's really not much point in bringing a dervish. The dervish "sucks" because a party that brings one is gimping itself, since they could have brought a scythe sin or scythe warrior who would have done the job better instead.

No, you're wrong about dervishes being underpowered because they aren't underpowered, and I know this because I made and played one. Not circular logic, bro.

Spawning Power is near useless; I can run a spirit spam build and kick ass without a single point placed into Spawning Power.

Boon of Creation is made irrelevant by the existence of Spirit Siphon. Feast of Souls is a pretty nice spell, though, particularly for griefing spirit spammers. Of course, I always struggle getting heals off in time in PvE, so I always cast it too late. Ironically I don't have this problem when I play in Heroes Ascent and the like. PvE messes me up as far as heal/prot goes.

True, though it generally doesn't do so enough to make itself worth dumping points into beyond what you have to spare after spending on good attributes.

Armor of Unfeeling and Summon Spirits will already keep your spirits alive through most everything in the game unless you're a terribad ritualist. And the few things they won't - Spawning Power isn't going to help either.

I'd rather see it as a function of level raising to make them more resilient against damage in the first place, and so that I could run an MM build effectively on my Ritualist.

Oh, I probably am. Playing a support class has never been my strong point (and the Ritualist is a support class), though I seem to pick them unnervingly frequently in every game I play.

The problem is that the person is saying 1+1=2, which is true, whereas you're saying the Dervish is underpowered, which is not

Wasn't that your entire complaint though? Dervishes not getting into groups and such because they're "inferior?"

And yet a Dervish has a much better chance at getting into a group than an Assassin. Why is that?

Um... *raises hand*

Sort of off topic, but what does "MSDB" mean?

Ah, but you kick more ass by putting some points into SP than leaving it empty, right? Just because the other attributes are better doesn't mean SP is worthless. However, that's getting off-topic.

Dervishes being inferior does not equal dervishes having trouble getting into groups. It just equals dervishes being inferior. Nothing more, nothing less.

Honestly? I'd say there are several reasons:
A) PUGs will often settle for "good enough" instead of trying to get the optimal party (and again, it's not that dervishes are unusable, they're just outclassed by warriors and sins)
B) The majority of the player base probably doesn't realize that dervishes are inferior, just as they don't realize WoH monks are inferior to ER eles
C) Player skill matters more than having a good profession
D) Not all sins and warriors use scythes, whereas if you see a dervish you can expect it to be packing one

However, none of this has anything to do with how useful the dervish actually is, which is what I'm talking about.

If the dervish isn't underpowered, then why are warriors and sins able to use their stuff better than them? Last time I checked, that was a textbook example of a balance problem, much like Me/E nukers in PvP, N/Rts before the rit buff, and ER healers now.

EDIT: MSDB is Moebius Strike + Death Blossom, a dagger combo chain very popular among assassins due to spammable armor-ignoring AoE damage.

Moebius Strike
Death Blossom

There isn't any particular enchantment I want to spam; just the damage ones uin general (since the suggestion is geared towards making PBAoE viable competition as AoE).

So you want to spam enchantments, but can't list a single one that you want to spam? How about listing ALL of them you want to spam, and then give a reason why each of those you will list SHOULD be spammed.

Here is an example:

Dust Cloak. It does damage when you use it, and causes Blind when it ends. Having the ability to spam it would provide more damage, and more blinding.

Now, I don't believe Dust Cloak needs to be spammed, but you can see what I am looking for. Your topic is titles ENCHANTMENT SPAM, yet you fail to talk about what enchantments should be spammed. If you feel Dervish is underpowered compared to other classes, that doesn't mean enchantments should be spammed, and only able to spam them with a Dervish.

Dervish has several options for energy management. Several skills give energy back, a Zealous scythe provides energy, and they also have use of signets and secondaries. If you feel enchantments cost too much energy, maybe you're using poor builds.

I still haven't seen you list a single reason WHY enchantments should be spammed. Enchantments and scythe use are different. So stop complaining about Warrior and Assassin using scythe better, and tell us why ENCHANTMENT SPAM should be used. Or did you just title the topic poorly?

Dead wrong. Earth Prayers accounts for only a fraction of dervish options for survivability. If warriors and assassins can use earth prayers to good effect, then by the same logic you have to allow that the dervish can use healing/protection prayers, shadow arts, inspiration, resto magic, blood magic, ele earth magic, etc. Patient Spirit? Reversal of Fortune? Shielding Hands? Try spamming those on a warrior or assassin (or even a monk). For a dervish at 15 Mysticism, the net energy cost for any of those spells is 0 which means you will never run out. Combine that with Avatar of Dwayna for indefinite perpetual hex removal plus MORE healing - can warriors and sins do that? Or if you want, go with Balthazar (a more traditional choice) for an unconditional, untyped armor boost that easily puts you above a warrior's default 80-100 AL. For either option note that unlike Critical Agility/Defenses (BTW one of them is completely useless against spellcasters), avatars CAN'T be stripped.

You're only considering Enchantment Spam as having an offensive use, in which case no wonder you think it sucks. For example take a monk secondary with Smiting Prayers, and throw Zealot's Fire with Reversal of Damage on your bar. Now add Avatar of Dwayna. With ZF and AoD active, is the damage output from spamming Reversal on yourself that impressive? No, but it probably shouldn't be considering you're (A) actually reflecting the damage YOU'd be receiving back at your enemies instead, (B) dealing minor aoe damage which also affects other adjacent foes, (C) removing a hex, and (D) healing yourself. All this for a net cost of 1 energy from Zealot's Fire (at 15 Mysticism), and a SINGLE 0.25s cast. Offense, defense, and utility all in a single click of the mouse - that's how Enchantment Spam actually works. If you're on par for damage with warriors and assassins (or even your own scythe) on top of all that then I think we have a serious balance problem.

Do me a favor: can you swap out Zealous Vow + Protector's Strike for Avatar of Lyssa + Strength of Honor (if you're worried about energy management, also switch MS + EA for Zealous Sweep + Lyssa's Assault)? Then take a point or two off Scythe Mastery (and dump Wind Prayers entirely) to pump Mysticism (I use +3 +1) and Smiting, then rerun those numbers for me will you?

I'd spam enchantments if they were 1/4 or 1/2 cast, so the damage they give actually DOES something. Otherwise, I could be spending more time hitting people with my scythe and less time casting. Stripping your own enchantments is also unattractive since its more time casting again, unless its one of the attack skills.

Actually, you don't. It doesn't improve spirit damage at all, and the extra health it gives them is unnecessary since you can keep them alive with laughable ease anyways. Unless you suck at playing Ritualist or are at a place with incredibly high damage, and in either such case Spawning Power isn't going to help you.

On the Ritualist vs. Dervish primary attribute discussion, the major difference between the two is that Ritualists actually have an arsenal of skills that are usable and not underpowered. Yes their primary sucks, so what? You got 14 Channeling Splinter Weapon (as an example.)

Whereas the Dervish has plenty of enchantments which noone even takes a second look at, can't blame em because as said earlier...

Those enchantments do mediocre damage, and in the time you're casting em you could've landed an attack.
There's also no real reason to strip one's own enchantments, again: you would be better off attacking.

Problem with this; if enchantments are of little use to a dervish, and attacking proves more effective in terms of damage (and tbh, the conditions applied with those enchantments aren't really worthwhile...) what has the Dervish got to offer?
Because as proven earlier by Reaper, Warriors and Assassins do better scythe damage.

Also, as far as I'm concerned the Dervish class was supposed to resolve around enchantments. Atleast, that's what was said when the class was released.

Dervish class is better balanced than warriors and sin. Mysticism is great the way it is, most of the skills under mysticism can be used to great advantage. Lets see Vow of Silence if used properly can rape almost anything(especially if you have a bonder). Any of the Avatars, use PvE skills keep Avatars on all the time since they cannot be stripped. Faithful and Watchful Intervention keeps you alive, you dont even have to bother maintaining one of them other has decent cast and recharge time, Heart of Holy Flame does dmg to all adjacent foes does holy dmg then causes burning. Now you can add attack skills. Can use earth or wind prayer skills just need to make YOUR OWN BUILDS AND TEST THEM to see what works well in what situation. You can even use other professions. Dervish's maintain enchantments to last longer tank if it maybe but they are not made to spam skills like Ele's that's why there are different professions seems most people that whine want their favorite profession to do everything just as good or even better than the rest. Learn how to play and test things out before whining and not even giving a reason besides saying this sucks ect.....

All very fun and nice, that survivability. But as stated earlier, damage still lacks.

Not to mention dead stuff don't do damage so if you are actually good at dealing damage and killing foes faster you shouldn't need to take skills to increase your own survivability. Keep the healing/prot to your backline, which with the current Ether Renewal (hero!) template shouldn't even be a problem.

My issue is dervishes deal mediocre damage, and don't excell at using their own weapon. Sins and Warriors do, and Warriors do it with better armour. Meaning they shouldn't need all that Watchful Intervention and other survivability skills.

Also, any skill you put on your bar to boost survivability, is one less skillslot that could be used to pump out more damage.

About Vow of Silence, that'd be gimmicky at best. A big waste of your elite imo. And still no increase in damage done.

Then about the Avatars, the only ones worthwhile that increase your damage output are Avatar of Grenth and Avatar of Lyssa, both still don't compare to WE Scythe or Critscythe damage.

It shouldn't be too hard to understand that if one class is less effective at their own job then other classes, it'd mean they're either underpowered or need a revamp.

Last explanation incase you still didn't get it, GW has been around for years, just about every skill combination has been tried and tested. Gimmicking yourself for survivability or whatever reason would be one's own choise. But it still doesn't make you any more effective if you do. Sure it can be fun. And yes I've tried it. But I'm talking about effectivity here. And as stated earlier the Dervish class is simply outshined by other professions. That's my one and only issue with the class.

Apart from that, I like the class as a whole. But due to it's lack in effectivity I find it reasonable to call for a revamp or atleast a buff to the profession.

Like Buns United said you cant do dmg if you are dead, War and Sin will die before a Dervish so survivability is great since the Derv can keep attacking and do dmg while the war and sin lay on floor thinking why they died(prob ran in agroe like usual). A dervish can do plenty of dmg like i said before need to learn to make a good skill set, PvX does not mean that every skill combination has been tried and tested. There are so many builds you can make that are not on PvX that would make a dervish do lots of dmg. My dervish in PvE can do lots of dmg a hit then just add an attack speed buff to do even more. Even if you say warriors and sins do more dmg a Dervish the same can be said about them. A dervish with daggers can do more dmg than a sin, I have seen Rangers and Eles with swords that do more dmg than a warrior. Like previously stated if you want to spam and do lots of damage you can always bring Eles, Mesmers, Necros to help you out, you cant have everything on your favorite profession which is most of the whining seen on guru.

Once again, dying shouldn't even be a problem in PvE with one Ether Renewal ele dedicated to prot/heal and a bit of common sence. (Pulling...)

Not to mention the WE Scythe has "Save Yourselves!" (usually), and 100AL. Although this is probably more of a Warrior balance issue (who am I kidding, balance in PvE???) the template still exists.

Again, I'm talking about effectivity. If an Elementalist or a Ranger with a sword outdamages your warrior, you should really reconsider bringing that paticular warrior... and Ele or Ranger.

No it does not, nor did I ever mention PvX. (I hate PvX being dragged in every single argument.) I was talking about GW being around for well over 4 years. The playerbase GuildWars has (and has had) didn't sit still all that time. I'm fairly certain that most effective skill combinations have been tried and tested.

Yet is has been proven (ugh, how many times must I keep saying this) that none of those builds will compete with the damage a Warrior or Assassin does with a scythe.

Proof of this? (Actually, nevermind as it has nothing to do with the subject.)
Also a Dervish with daggers, even if he manages to outdamage an Assassin with daggers, still can't take "Save Yourselves!" whereas the Assassin can (and probably will.)

Ofcourse, GuildWars is a team-based game. But saying that if you want to do lots of damage, you should leave it to the other professions...
^
Did you even read this yourself?

I keep forgetting I'm not talking to my old 3 man guild that was great with every profession since we actually knew what we where doing, our dervish's didn't suck(not our main profession). Good luck all trying to get these people to understand that theres no problem with dervish enchantments and dmg output. Just play the game and have fun, thats what we do.

You don't even hide the fact that you're cherry-picking. Splinter Weapon is a valid excuse for a whole primary attribute (increased spirit health is an even bigger joke now with .75sec spirit casting) being useless? Given that I don't see why it matters if any dervish enchantments suck. Since you've still got Vow of Strength, Vow of Silence, Faithful Intervention, Heart of Fury, plus dozens more I could list off the wiki, the obvious response to a problem with any other dervish enchantment would logically fall under "so what?"

Unless the stuff you're trying to hit can still kill you (or your backline) faster. If they're 8 to 10 levels above you, attacking/moving/casting 33% faster than normal, and packing an extra skill along the lines of say, Battle Scars or Shield of Fire, I wouldn't bet my whole bar on being the faster killer. Assassins do that often enough, which is why they're notorious for spending most of their missions waiting for a res instead of spamming their 1-2-3s.

If I said that about Primal Rage everyone would be all over me with that "cancel stance" dogma. Vow of Silence works on similar principle: if it's not working, strip it. A "gimmick" like that is a pretty good price for indefinite near-immunity to spellcasters as a whole.

Do you know how many possible combinations of skills are out there? If we were to calculate it, the answer would easily dwarf the figure of "X million active players" Anet keeps reporting (most of whom prefer to zombify themselves on PvX rather than actually test new build ideas). I've only scratched the surface with my experimenting, and yet I've come up with several concepts on the dervish alone that have yet to be matched by whatever passes for the latest OP build. Either people don't know a good build when they see one (I guess they better "L2P instead of whining" after all), or there's much more than you realize that even now goes undiscovered by the masses.


On a more general note, recall that Warriors were inarguably the quintessential melee combatant when Guild Wars first opened. That wasn't just a coincidence, but a result of their intended role as no other profession was designed to be anywhere near the fray. This changed with the introduction of Assassins, who could make swifter, easier kills at the cost of endurance and relative durability (presumably this was the rationale to argue that their functionality wasn't redundant). So now with the Dervish, what do you (in your own personal opinion) think they should offer that makes them competitive with yet stand apart from the warrior? Should they have better damage than the "original melee master"? If so then logically they should have lower survivability to compensate, but then all you're left with is a second-rate clone of the Assassin. Should they have lower damage? If so then we wouldn't be arguing your point.

To be fair, I think the Dervish wasn't created to actually offer a new role to experience so much as satisfy a perception that Nightfall simply needed two extra professions. But for you to argue in favor of buffs you must see some form of specialized purpose in battle that they were intended for. So share that with us.