The State of Monks in PvE

With a small Patient Spirit Nerf, and a nerf to Selfless Spirit, I now find myself wondering why people play monk at all. The state of monking is as such, and is a petition for things to change.

1. Boonprot heals more then healing builds, not taking account for elite skills. It's a little less viable with Selfless Spirit nerfed, but then again, Selfless spirit was never really the problem. Prot monks should not heal more then healing monks.

2. Healing monks are severely underpowered in PvE. The only good, widely usable Healing spells are WoH, Patient Spirit, and usually Dwayna's Grace. Typically, everyone runs Hybrid bars now because of this fact. Rits heal better then healing monks in most cases nowadays, but Rits aren't really the problem. (AKA, they don't need nerfs on the healing side). It'd be nice to see other healing skills be buffed to a usable state, and healing elites that aren't WoH be buffed a bit to be more useful in situations (in other words, don't try to compete with WoH)

3. Ether Renewal. With just two skills, ER and Aura of Restoration, Ele's can outheal or outprot ANY monk without breaking a sweat, and people have been bugged about it for quite some time with no hope of change in site. I don't think anyone can name a single thing that monks can do that ER eles can't.

On a basic level, I believe that ER should be nerfed to be not usable with monk skills.

Selfless Spirit's recharge should be brought down to a level that would make it widely usable again (25-30 seconds), and perhaps make it only usable for healing and smiting skills (at least not usable for Prot skills. in this case, make it maintainable again?)

Other healing prayer spells need a bit of a buff. Not much, mind you. Many have good potential (Ethereal Light, Healing Whisper) but are unfavored. Others (10 energy spells like Heal other, those AoE spells that can heal enemies, Orison of Healing, and a few others) just aren't usable by monking standards, and most elites (Healing Burst, Healing Light, Healer's Covenant, Glimmer of Light) fail to warrant use instead of WoH

The reason why full heal bars suck and hybrid bars are much more favored is not something that you can fix by buffing healing prayers. Healing sucks because prot always is - and always will be - more energy effective, more efficient, and more effective overall than red bar pushing. A single PS can stop more damage than the effective health of the protted character, which means that you can pump up the heals all you want on all manner of healing spells and they still could never compete with a hybrid bar. This really isn't anything that I see in need of a change; proper monking (read: not heal-botting) requires pretty much the most skill of any job in PvE, especially in a PUG where you literally are all that stands between your team and a wipe, constantly. And yet, monks still manage to be both desired and useful everywhere in PvE, despite the effectiveness of ER healers (which, yes, should be touched a tad, but it's so far down the totem pole of OP-ed s*** in PvE that there's little point). In short, I don't see a problem here.

Yes, I believe there is an awful problem on the monk-cure role.

I also dislike a lot that monks doesn't have much felxibility in the use of different skills as other professions, most of monk skills are underpowered for viable use on pve.

Elite areas are only done successfully using only a few skills and bar templates, not entering into the debate on whether the elite areas are supposed to be hard, the point is that monk players have a great disadvantage of free play vs any other class.

As said, ele with Ether Renewal and IH is just too much to compete in the pve eviroment. My solution, besides of nerfing ER+IH combo, would be to give a buff into the Divine Favor attribute so monks could really get into curing role without being outcasted by secondary prof chars. IMO monk skills should be only viable to use by primary monks, and should less effective (about the half of the heal)for second classes as a self heal.

ER sucks balls. Infuse spam? Noobish thing ever, you fail 100% of the time unless you were an Infuser God with "Imma Firin Mah Rojway" title. Which we all know doesn't exist. AP Monks > everything, end of story.

Noobish but it still exists. Anyways I don't need monk classes to be changed to like them, but any monk loving skill update would still be appreciated.

What about Healer's Boon...that's pretty great raw healing power. Even with the Patient spirit nerf, WoH monks are still more effective monks than boon prots

Exactly! I saw your post regarding this in the relevant thread. Ele infuser fails even in NM!

Now, we all know everything works in NM. How to respond to this paradox?

Ele infusers force the other team's monks to heal them constantly, thus doing the impossible and actively killing their team in a situation where the monsters can't.

UA says hai.

ether renewal isn't comparable to a healing monk. one enchantment strip or interrupt and you're useless. I play an Ele and no one wants me in groups anymore, monks, mesmers and necros took the solo farming, nuking and support positions :/

Anyone remembered before patient got buffed, how it was never used?

It was the ice ages then. . .

Generally not dieing is preferred instead of fast rez if you are H/H. If you're PUGing, it's your own fault XD

spamming a no recharge skill that can bring a character to full health while maintaining protective bond and many other characters is definitly something that should not exist.

This is actually the first time I've heard anyone say that infusers actually suck. I don't honestly see how they could possibly suck.

heroes are dumb and when they see how quickly you lose health, they waste all heals on you while rest of your party dies

Monks are fine in pve atleast they can still use the proper form of Aegis unlike its pvp counterpart.They still are the best at removing conditions except Paras.Healing is still good in hex heavy areas no one can do that as best as Monk can.

the idea behind a hybrid bar is exactly what this game is based off of. You create a build combining two professions to increase the effect of your skills.

In other words, learn to play.

Rits are much, much better.

And why are you using other healing heroes when you have a skill that can bring a person to full life in one second with no recharge?

-Thinks- No, not always. You can't play Prot in FA on the Kurzick side because the turtles rip all your enchantments, you end up using too much energy to cover your enchants, that it is NOT more effective. That is one place that a full heal bar is better.

But, aside. This selfless spirit changing is making absolutely no sense to me. They changed it in the first place because they said no one used it and that at inopportune times you might accidentally cast something on yourself and then you're left with nothing. I DID use it before all the changing that occurred and found it to be very effective at what it was, energy management. They changed it, which made HBing a whole hell of a lot easier and yes, it was OPed, but it's PvE... Anyway, this change basically reverts it back to how it used to be EXCEPT it only reduces energy cost by three (BFD) and it doesn't end when you cast it on yourself.

So, for the tl;dr people, they took a skill they said was crap, buffed, and then nerfed it into something that was worse than what it started out as. It doesn't make ANY SENSE. >,..,< I hate the developers.

With 5 enchants on your bar..who would actually bother to cover ER, but you know, useless

Selfless Spirit was too powerful and too easy too use, it deserved a nerf, now it's more in line with other e-managment skills.

WoH should recive a small nerf and other healing prayers elites a small buff, but overall monks are fine in PvE, and buffing them over the top because another broken, overpowered build exists is stupid.

Roll an ER Ele, head over to Slaver's and take on the first group in Duncan HM.* ER builds cannot cope well with heavy pressure very well and cannot pack hex or condition removal (their bars are very tight as it is).
A Monk in team with an ER Ele should try to fulfill the roles the Ele can't. Namely, cleaning and party heals.
For once, I would advocate Healer's Boon and Heal Party, or perhaps Restore Condition.

Ether Renewal has weaknesses. It has weaknesses a Monk can build around without too much of a problem. Ether Renewal does not make a monk redundant. It just makes accepted builds redundant.


*You may succeed, but that mob and what you face in the rest of Slaver's should point out the weaknesses.

@ Desert Rose,

Why on earth does WoH need a nerf? Its the ONLY decent heal elite. You don't nerf it so other, less-used elites get a look in thats just retarded.

The nerf to Patient Spirit has done little harm and is still as good, just not spammable, which you shouldn't be doing anyway. Which leads me to Selfless Spirit "nerf", if you need that much E-management then you're spamming to much. Learn to use the skills correctly and you shouldn't run into energy issues.

Monks are still playable. Two nerfs does not stop a whole proffesion,

Oh no! You can't play with your elbows anymore /cry ...

Selfless needed a bit of a hit and although i liked patient as is was the change doesnt render it useless , just less spamable.

Monks are not even close to useless just because of 2 skill changes and i personally rarely ever see anything other than monk healers while pugging or playing guild groups.

This thread is like asking why a flare ele doesn't work in HM.

A heal monks don't work because they aren't supposed to work. You are supposed to use a hybrid prot build and be an active defender, looking at positioning. Your profession does not "push read bars up."

No they don't.They have the power of divine favour as well as hex and condition removel.

Monks as healing and prot are fine.

I'd say smiting is what needs a serious overhaul.

Ugh, more bad players who think Selfless Spirit nerf was the end of the world. Monks did well without it before, and will continue to do well with it now. It's even still usable, 20 seconds of -3 on your monk spells isn't something to be pushed aside. Better than it was before anyway. Sorry you can't hit it on recharge anymore guys.


Well yeah you do. Other healing elites could be bought up just a little to compete with WoH. At the moment, it's just a stupidly insane 5E heal for anyone who isn't a moron.

If WoH is the "only" good healing elite... doesn't that mean WoH is way better then every other one... and therefore, overpowered? After all, what is a "balanced" is defined by how good it is in comparison to all other skills. Lil Leena... your own argument on why it shouldn't be nerfed is the reason it should be nerfed.

For PvE I run a 2 Monk setup. Neither of the 2 are hybrids, one is Heal+Divine Favor, the other is Protection+Divine Favor. I do this with humans and heroes/hench both. I have no problems, and the skill changes don't effect me as I don't use Selfless Spirit, and rarely use Patient Spirit.

Learn HOW to Monk, and the skills you use can be quite varied.

I was talking about his comment about condition removal. Please read before you post.



I'm not saying that Selfless Spirit is the end of the world so much as it actually put monks more 'in line' with ER eles. Since Anet doesn't seem to want to nerf ER....

Basically, there's no real reason to play a monk over an ele save a few certain builds that utilize a second profession on a monk (AP for one). It takes the skill out of monking, because instead of proting smart, you just prot on anything that is taking damage and your good. Infusers can heal any character to full health, and even if you don't want to use IH, Heal Other and Jamei's gaze works well for healing.

Who's comment yours as I quoted your post no one elses.

I am board Administrator so I do read everything.

WoH is just fine.

At spamming the two big prots, ER Ele's are better than monks.
At restoring a single red bar, ER Ele's are better than monks.
When the entire team is taking heavy pressure, Infuse isn't wonderful. A monk geared to dealing with pressure is better than the ER Ele. As long as there's a copy of Prot Spirit floating around somewhere that is.

Wait, wait, that post wasn't a joke?

Do you even know how the ER build works? Half the point of ER is that it gives you back the health you lose from infuse. So, no, it doesn't force anyone else to heal you. And if you do need health, just cast any spell except infuse (ER doesn't just give you health when you spam infuse, after all).

I almost fully agree with this post (except for the heavy pressure part; there's nothing preventing an ER ele from packing Heal Party; and their infinite energy will make them better at party healing over the long term; plus there's shield guardian to consider; which easily allows an ER ele to out-party-heal a monk).

ER bars require a lot of enchantments, so they can't fit condition or hex removal on their bar. That's the one place where monks can beat them, and in a party with an ER healer that's what a monk should focus on.

It's not much, but it's better than nothing.

How would you fit Heal Party in there?
Shield Guardian is carried because it's spammable. You can cast it very quickly between Infuses to get your health back up. Heal Party is at a 2 second cast time, in that time you'll probably want to hit something else.
And don't suggest carrying Mindbender, because you really cannot fit that in.

There's also the healing spec to consider. Heal Party requires a pretty high investment in healing. Normally, an ER Ele doesn't need to consider a healing spec.

Even if we ignore Heal Party, a 50 or so party heal every 2 sec will quickly defeat an HB+Heal Party.

Agreed.
About the only roles left the monks beat eles at are...
1. Party Healing with HBoon
2. Self-chaining Aegis and Seed of Life with AP
3. Heavy Condition/Hex Removal (although Foul Feast almost gives condition removal all the way over to N/X or X/N midliners...)

These are all situationally useful, but none as useful as spammable bigprot + huge spotheal. At best, the monk has become the secondary character to provide gap coverage for the ele.

2 second cast time.

Shield Guardian will not achieve that. Even if it did, it is not reliable enough and more situational.
And "Nearby Allies" doesn't equate to party healing.

You still don't have the healing power of a Monk and some protection spell do well with it.I will say if this was the case then why don't they just use as you said in HA,TA as well Tourneys' instead of Monks.Mesmers can always replace an Eles as they can cast spells faster than Eles can.

If they made smiting stronger we Monks would just go and smite and do big damage.

What?
Two reasons why ER Eles don't popup in any PvP setting:

1. Ether Renewal is an enchantment. Your energy management is enchantment based and if ER is stripped, you're in trouble. Without ER, the ele has no advantages over the monk.
2. Ether Renewal (PvP).

I understand that Eles using elite e-management to pump out expensive heals and prots is not a recent concept though.

Thats what I was referring to when I said Rits were better. also in that I was referring to non-elite options. Obviously RC monks are going to defeat Rits.

So yeah, sorry, I was a bit vague