GvG

Hey, I'm just saying the mindset of people looking to get in but simply cannot be buggered dealing with all the smurfs and vast changes to style of gameplay.

Maybe it's not the fault of anyone who plays, and just the style isn't attractive enough (see: rewards) for those looking to get into it. Personally I've love to GvG more but the only thing I'd want from it is the champion monument, which is too far a stretch when I could be getting other things for the HoM, rather than fighting through smurfs to get it.

It's a rather complex problem as to why GvG is simply not as popular as it used to be, and the solution is going to be very hard to get to.

I know you were talking about the mindset of people and I commented on it. I'm well aware of it and as I said, I see it outside of Guild Wars too. It is a shame but there really isn't anything we can do. It is the way perceptions have changed in the world from one generation to the next. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, people are generally more spoiled today than they were even 10-20 years ago.

My first post that quoted you was really all about the false idea of elitism, and my second was on the claim you made about it not being possible to form a guild of 8 new players and begin to GvG. You can do that still and it is still the most likely way to get into GvG. I won't deny it is a lot harder nowadays, but unfortunately it is still the best way to go about playing GvG.

And I believe the lack of rewards is the main cause for the lack of GvGers. Even people who loved GvG left when there were no live tournies and no real life prizes being given away. Most PvErs will look at PvP and if they have any interest at all it is mainly in RA or HA because of the titles being obtainable right away. HA even has the added bonus of emotes and an end chest. So it is only obvious that most would be unable to see the appeal in GvG over other formats.

As far as a solution goes, I've stated plenty of times that I don't feel there is one, not for GW1 GvG anyway. You could up the rewards and see a slight increase in people wanting to get into GvG, but it will end up being like HA where they will want to be invited into the groups who have the best chance of winning and don't want to spend the time losing. They would much rather just go vanquish an area where they know they will succeed and get a reward rather than failing multiple times over.

Yes, my son was a lot like that thought everything was owed to him by me because I brought him into this mess. lol So, I gave him what I owed him, a kick in the azz right into the army. Now he's finding out that other people don't really care what he thinks or what he wants or how he feels. Sometimes it just takes a kick of real life to find out how good you really have it in those places where you are griping all the time about what you are owed. I think too many parents are spoiling their kids too and giving them too dam much nowadays instead of making them get out there and work for what they want and get. That's why you have so many whinners here. I got .50 cents a week for my allowance and hear about kids today getting $20 a week and don't have to do a dam thing for it. Get your lazy azz up off the couch and do something for your old man or mom some of you ingrateful lil oaths.

one of the biggest problem with GW gvg (and pvp in general) is the lack of continuity between the different arenas. what i mean is, there isn't such thing as a "casual" gvg arena. there isn't anywhere where a player can learn the fundamentals of gvg on his own. let's face it, playing a thousand matches in RA will teach NOTHING about gvg. to learn how to play gvg you have to play gvg, and get thrown to the lions in the process.

my favourite example of a game that has this done properly is DotA (or heroes of newerth, as it's turning into). the casuals, newbies, and professions all play the same format. the casual games might not be as organized, and skill levels are not as high, but the same basic format still applies throughout all tiers. it means a much easier transition going up the ladder.

I haven't ever played DotA but I always hear great things about it. Could you maybe explain in greater detail how DotA adds a casual format and maybe theorize how Guild Wars can incorporate something similar? Because I agree that that would help a great deal.

there isn't a strictly casual format per se. everybody use the exact same map with the exact same heroes and exact same mechanics. however, it's also structured in a way that you can just jump into a game with a bunch of randoms and play. this is unlike GW gvg, where no amount of practice is lower end arenas can EVER prepare you to play gvg.

honestly though, what GW needs is a random GvG format of some kind. it also needs much better matchmaking systems to ensure nobody gets 8 monks on each side or other retarded teams. at the end of the day, GW might not be suitable for this kind of stuff. its emphasis on team play is too heavy; there's no way you can have 8 independent players be effective on a gvg map. even BYOB is not entirely random.

I've played a lot of War3 and a lot of Dota, and it's safe to say the game still has the same problems. At casual play, people leave the game if they think there team isn't going to win or if they die. There is a lot of yelling and screaming and just generally people being bad at the game. The only reason people think Dota is such a great game is because it is so simple. You control one unit with three skills and have a limited amount of items to choose from. You generally pick the same items each time.

Also, competitive Dota is VASTLY different from casual Dota. There is no way you can just "jump" into competitive Dota. You need a team of friends (four friends + you), organize a team to vs by yourself and even then, the game is decided by the hero choices. One person picks Hero A, Other team Picks Hero B to counter Hero A, next person picks Hero C to counter hero B and so on.

the point is, DotA has just one arena, while GW has a bunch of arenas that really has nothing to do with each other. you can practice for competitive play in DotA by playing casual matches. you can't do this in GvG.

I dunno, the skill level in Competitive and Casual play is so different. It's like a 8v8 Random Arena teaching you how to play GvG, I'm not sure how helpful it would be.

that's the thing though; only skill differentiates in DotA. not to mention, an 8v8 RA on GvG maps objectives is bound to be more helpful than 4v4 RA on totally different maps with no objectives other than "kill the other team".

Was not Fort Aspinwood the GvG transitional stage?

As a reply to your post I will use your own words from the other thread:


@OP We in the guild do not do gvg from simple logistics reasons. It takes too much time to form a team and the time the match takes is quite short. In this case TA is already more interesting choice since preparation times are significantly lower.

just wanted to say thanks again for everybody who responded to my post. I really do appreciate all the feedback I've gotten and it's given me a lot to think about. If you have any other questions or something you would like to add, feel free to pm me in game. IGN Canon Rock

Thanks!

I think too many people take it way to seriously
I've been in guilds where we tried to get the "perfect" build for over an hour, only to find out that the leader didn't want to risk losing rating, and being unable to find another guild in our alliance to challenge unrated.
I would just prefer to play casually, but it seems that everyone just wants to win. (well, i could see why, but it shouldn't dominate all the other reasons)

Also, finding eight people(or even 4) is also a problem, as well as the general lack of interest because almost everyone has the perception that we will lose.
I tired convincing people that lower rating is better because then we can work our way bottom up, but maybe only one person listened to me.

Finding in good guild with the same interests is also difficult.

I'm not arguing good players being good, I'm also not stating all of these good players are elitists. When I say elitists I'm talking about these players who go around bragging they are the best and act as though nothing else matters but their opinions, thoughts and feelings about GVG and anyone else who participates or tries to participate in GVG opinions, feelings and thoughts just don't matter, elitists have no class and they hide behind a monitor acting like they are somebody when it's just a game thus they are really nobody. Typical of those that make blanket statements like go find some of those 1000's of players like X and play with them. These are your elitists. Good players are just good players not braggarts or arrogant. Players like that are the TO's of football or R. Moss's. They are good, but, nobody really likes them or cares what they think. In the end they will be nobodys without many friends if any at all. Neither will probably make it to the HOF either. )

pffft, the barriers of entry into the high end gvg pvp are too high to bother putting the time into trying to overcome. besides, im just bad at the game anymore; laziness

Using the fact that New Zealand has a badp ing doesnt mean you cant Gvg. I do perfectly fine.

The biggest problem with NZ is the shitty time zone compared to Americans and Euro's we are right in the middle. and the time zone is dead for gvg

Getting noticed in the GvG world is like tossing a bottled message in a sea of bottled messages; the chances of your message being selected is painfully slim, and it's no easier than pinging your name for a spot for a DoA run when the team is 7/8 and what's needed is a monk, though your character is a warrior, and everyone else is gunning for that spot, none of them being monks because there aren't any around, or any willing to help. And about starting at the dirt bottom to get anywhere: the years have passed when that was acceptable, when just about anyone with some knowledge of the game was able to play GvG and get along to some degree. Of course, the bottom has gotten deeper, and it's at the level of hell today, where it's gotten to the point that people who want to start can't because they're permanently stuck in the hell level, so they have literally no choice but to play on the lower tiers of PvP, which I mean by anything below TA, because even that has gotten a bit fancy and ridiculously selective (though it will be gone soon).

I hate when people say "Make friends, make connections" or "Find like minded and make a guild from there" and the sort, but making friends in this game is as easy as building a computer; people who haven't done it before will find the task daunting and attempting the task, even with direction, failure is clearly imminent. Also, you can't make connections you don't have.

But simply, GvG to me is just another activity, but this format has Schutzstaffel-like requirements and is the primary focus on the game. It's the people in it that make the format seem like a spawning pool of elitists and their ilk.

i went into my first complete computer build armed with nothing but a screwdriver and common sense. the computer worked perfectly right off the bat. i went into my first gvg much the same way, armed with a build that i've practiced, keyboard+mouse and ventrilo. my team and i went 2 for 3 that night, the only lose came 10 minutes into VoD because one of our players never loaded. this was back in '06.

the excuse of "there are too many elitists" is just an excuse. there are a-holes in every corner of the game, and to paint an entire group of people as such is just insulting. more often than not, it's a PEBKAC issue.

when shit happens, first look to yourself before looking at your teammates. often, you'll find the problem right there.

I don't see the problem with getting into GvG. I think it took me about two weeks to find a GvG guild that I liked and after about two/three months of playing I'm their core ranger and we're playing top 500 and still gaining ranks every session.

The fact we lost like 100 rating in the first month actually didn't matter cause everyone was feeling we we're just finding the right build and generally getting better as a team. For me, to be in a team that constantely improves in a competitive format has been one of the most fun experiences in Guild Wars.

When I read this thread I wonder which game you're playing. It's most definetely not impossible to get into GvG and I haven't really encountered elitism as described here. Ofcourse, I didn't even try to play for experienced guilds when I just started, like people said, you have to start at the bottom. If you don't want to do that then YOU are the elitist, not the people who don't want to play with you.

I'm currently playing for a few various bad guilds, trying to help a bunch of newish players learn some ropes. I'm talking players who have only just begun to grasp the concept of kiting and weapon swaps - who have no idea what to do against a split of any kind, and who have generally only played their bar in half a dozen RA matches.

From my experience playing with these people, the single greatest obstacle for players new to the format is attitude. Of the ~25 people in varying guilds that I currently guest for, all of about two guys are happy to accept various facts about their matches. I'm going to throw these out here in an accusatory form, because I think this strongly applies to several posters in this thread.

- If you've never played a GvG before, or had a very small amount of experience, then please don't expect to win every game. I'll say it right now: You're going to lose. A lot. Hell, new players will probably go sub 900 rating before things change, probably less with K value as it is.

- Rating doesn't matter. I honestly have no idea why new guilds don't want to play because it'll drop their rating. So what? Unless you just don't improve you'll earn it back. Or hell, you could even just reform if you really cared about it that much.

- If you aren't prepared to religiously obs yourself and deal with mistakes you obviously made, then you are simply not going to improve. Obs mode (usually) doesn't lie. I've seen players consistently try to deny the same mistakes over and over as I observe them in obs mode each night. Stop shitting yourself - you won't get better until you man up to those mistakes.

- You will only improve as much as you let yourself. As others have said in this thread, people seem to expect wins on a platter. It doesn't happen, get used to it. You're going to have to put in the hard yards.To do that you need to play the fricking game. Practice your bar in RA or AB. Take note of other players playing the same bar - what do they do better? Do some reading. There are plenty of resources out there aimed at helping new players improve.

- Get some friends. GvG can typically be harder to get into because of the lack of an easy title - you need a reputation to land most guilds worth being in. So you need to build that rep. Once you get decent at playing a few bars then make some friends. Friendlist strong players you've played with and guest them, advertise yourself. Pm spam all the LF GvGers threads here and on QQ saying you'll join or guest. If you've put in the effort to learn the bars it'll show, and hell you might even get core/guested again if you do a decent job. Once you've built up a few connections it's easy. This game is so dead that people at your rank should start recognizing your name.

I have seen countless sub ladder players/guilds fail/disband because they are disheartened by the initial rating drop and can't be bothered expending the effort to get better. They simply dip a toe into the water and opt not to take a swim because it's a bit cold. Little do they realize that once they learn to swim that figurative water will be the most fun they can possibly have in this game.

This post turned into something of a behemoth, but what I'm largely trying to say is that GvG takes effort. By and large, PvErs or other potential new GvGers don't seem to want to expend that effort - they expect it to be handed to them. Whether this is something to do with the fact that PvE become incrementally easier with each update, or if it's just that people are becoming lazy I'm not sure. But what I am sure about is that attitude is a very significant factor in the lack of influx of GvG players.

TL; DR: People can't be screwed getting better at the game.

I tried getting in some GvG guilds before, but it just seems too difficult to make it to one of the good guilds and have a great team to play with. I have a lot experience from before, in all kinds of PvP, but now I can't find a good guild because I don't have GvG rank and ain't involved into GvG over last 2 years.

So, I can't play with skilled players, and I don't want to play with noobs because I have a lot of experience from before and don't wanna go trough learning process again.

GvG takes a lot of dedication and your time. Also, it requires mic and vent, and as I use 5.1 stereo, all my slots are used so there's no room for mic and I don't have headset.

From my experience and the people I know, definitely the latter. Yes there are some people who want to dive straight into higher level teams rather than start from the bottom and blame elitism when they can't. Of course its elitism's fault, it only exists in EVERY competitive sport. If people don't want to play with you then its your problem, not theirs.

Most of the new people trying to get into GvG don't really care about what rank or prior experience, they just want to guild wars. While you can hope a good guild might take you under their wing, its an unrealistic expectation so that leaves many to start from scratch with people near their level.

Enter logistics nightmare. For those of you who don't know, GvG is NOT made to be PUG'able unlike everything else in this game. Firstly, you have to either convince your guild to start GvG or leave your guild and join a GvG guild. That itself is a turnoff for many people as they don't want to leave their friends behind. Assuming you take this step you then have to find 7 other players, get them to log on at the same time regularly, and keep them from leaving after losing your first 10 matches. So many beginner GvG guilds end up inactive or disbanded because of this.

To answer the topic, I don't think there is anything the community can do besides more Kisu-like guilds. Telling people not to be elitists is like telling them not to be competitive. The problem can only be fixed by Anet making the format more accessible to casual players by making it PUG'able. Being able to PUG GvG means more less experienced people will try it, which leads to more people playing at that lower level and fighting each other instead of losing to good teams all the time.

Here we go again typical of your type. It's a team effort and a team loss there is no I in team.

What? Everyone on the team should look at what they individually could have done better, saying "oh well, it's a team effort and a team loss" is just avoiding the issue. Stuff the whole team could have done better is honestly rare in comparison...once you work past communication and such, it comes down to following your strategy and calls and people on your team making proper choices. That's stuff those individuals have to look at and see if & how they can improve - which in turn affects the whole team.

You do have to look at yourself...everyone on the team (including you) can always improve, no exceptions, even the best players can and will get better, learn from mistakes, and so on. No one is perfect.

A team is only as good as the people on it, and if those individuals never make attempts to make THEMSELVES better, then the team itself will never be better.

At this point in the game, the thing holding me back is finding a guild with dedicated, decent players who aren't morons. That and the fact that I've been quite busy, and I'm going to be more busy when I get a job (and when MW2 comes out <3).

Personally, I don't share OP's enthusiasm for GvG anymore. AT's are difficult to plan your life around, builds are boring to play and play against and finding the right aptitude and attitude level of guests / guild mates in an ever diminishing pool of players has put me right off. Ladder match wait times are also ridiculous.

I find BYOB is the only fun thing about GvG these days.

There is a "me" though.

inde delivers the ZIINNNGGG!!!

after 3 years of gvg, i'm just tired of it. its too hard to find a guild that functions properly, ie. enjoys playing together, plays well, thrives on improvement, has a decent play schedule, and most importantly...sticks with it. the wait times for gvg suck even at peak hours, and getting a match after 10pm is difficult. the monthly has become a joke, seeing as guilds can go 3-3 or worse and get a poop trim. anet doesn't help either sometimes, what with the vod changes and meta shift after meta shift. the gvg community just isn't what it used to be, and the decline of GW itself isn't helping. giving your all to something that few people seem to care about is rather unrewarding.

BYOB is still a lot of fun though, and i'm looking forward to sealed deck.

What's MW2???

shouldnt this go in the pvp section? O_o

It really wouldn't make much sense asking GvGers what there reasons are behind not getting into GvG. The question of the thread is asking people who don't GvG (mainly PvErs) why they don't. What are their reasons for not wanting to, or what is preventing them from doing so.

So no, it doesn't belong there, that is the last place it belongs.

Would it be too hard to imagine a group of people who just aren't interested at all in the PvP side of Guild Wars? I hate how PvE'ers are getting attacked in this thread for a "lack of effort" and "wanting everything handed to them," it's completely unfair to a large chunk of the PvE community.

Modern Warfare 2.

The OP is asking the general GW community what's stopping them from GvGing. As Still Number One said, asking strictly PvP players is pretty pointless.

I think the only one lumping the entire PvE community together here is you. Myself and everyone else (at least all to my knowledge) who has stated that "people want everything handed to them" are specifically talking about the people who try to get into PvP, but fail and decide to come onto the forums and complain about "elitism".

No one is naive enough to think that everyone wants to PvP and those who don't are lazy or spoiled. Of course there are people who don't want to PvP. There are also players who don't want to PvE. This thread is about and for those players who do want to get into GvG, and it is asking what is preventing you from making the jump.

*resses thread from page 5*

I'm one of those players that's been playing GW for four years, pretty much PvE exclusively (aside from a minor HA stint and a ton of Aspenwood, Alliance Battles and Jade Quarry). I'm not bored per se with GW, but my time logged in is mostly spent watching observer mode and playing JQ. I've always wanted to do some semi-serious GvG and I'm happy to report my guild is finally doing so

I'm in the same guild as Pansy Malfoy upthread ([BPA]) and we've actually been playing as much as all our conflicting schedules allow (we're a mixed Euro/American guild on a number of different timezones. Some of us even have lives outside GW, if you can believe it). And yeah, we've been losing a LOT of our matches, but honestly it's been some of the most fun I've had in the game in months. I don't even care about the losses, just having a challenge and doing something new is enough for me.

We had our best evening so far last night, when we won two out of the three matches we played (it really is a shame obs doesn't save more of your own guild's matches--the only one still up is our last one, which we lost). We're still pretty terrible, but at least I can tell we're improving. There's a lot more talking on vent now, a lot more communication about what's going on where and there's just more of a click, I guess. It was so much fun, I can't wait til our next GvG.

Yeah, I guess I just wanted to talk about it a little bit. We won despite having to run with a Vekk and one of our warriors having vent problems and being unable to hear us. One of our won matches should've ended way before it actually did (we won on Lord damage) and had a bit of an "oh shit" moment right in the middle, and the other one started out so bad some of us wanted to resign straight away. Good thing we stuck with it (they were running Life Siphon necros and dagger dervishes, so yeah) because it ended up so good.

Okay, done babbling. Have a brownie if you made it this far. My treat

Lets see
- Fact that you must be in a guild for more than 2 weeks to do it
- If you are going for ranked people are going to watch you
- I think I would come off as not myself on vent
- People always wanting the meta and nothing else

What most people overlook is the Guild Leader.

The guild leader is frequently considered to be just the one who created the guild and is able to kick people if they're being a dickhead. But, a real guild leader also organizes everything. The guild leader is different from the Guild Leader ( notice the difference in capital letters ).

The guild leader, is the the one who leads the guild, get everybody to come on, looks for guests when needed, will shout at you if you decide to leave randomly when setting up for GvG, etc. The Guild Leader is just a title, those 2 guild leaders don't have to be the same person.

This is something that the low-ranked beginning GvGers lack. In high-end GvG it doesn't play a role as much anymore, people know when ATs are, have a certain time for GvG and generally are online a lot. The beginning GvGers just need someone to actually take lead and not think someone else will do it.

Also, like Billiard said: you really have to make an effort. Don't think everything will go by itself. It takes hours of frustration to get to a level you're content with. If you feel like your teammates aren't progressing, it's time to leave your guild and look for a better one.

The getting 8 people thing can be very hard for beginning GvGers indeed; most of the times you'll be unable to get guests because you don't know anyone else who GvGs yet! I don't know any way around this either. At some point you make a name for yourself and people start asking you and then you can ask them back again as well.

So yes, you need to be as determined as... ...something that's really really determined! In the end all the hours of frustration will pay off, because GvG really is the most fun gametype.

This is it for me. Not enough friends who speak same language and have same interests.

That's the problem with organized PvP, you either organize or don't do it at all. Difficult to be casual...

Edit: sorry I didn't notice this thread had been ressed/necro'd.