@syphonus - one problem with MoD testing is that it's very hard to get a level playing field.
Does one test with buffs or without? I opted for no buffs just to see the raw numbers. The problem with this approach is that Asura Scan is a percentage damage increase, which means WOTA appears to benefit more than the other elites. (due to high damage crits) However, other buffs just offer a flat increase.
Without ANY buffs I got these scores:
WotA: 87 dps
LF: 93 dps
MS: 84 dps
Have you tested LF vs WotA?
Are you recasting AS every time the MoD dies, as you would have to in actual gameplay? Probably not.
Conversely, when testing MS does one just cycle DB/MS or restart the chain? If you restart, you won't get the second Deep Wound counted correctly. See what I mean?
Additionally, MoD doesn't report the effect of AoE, so even occasionally getting a second DB from MS is going to raise the effectiveness of MS in a difficult to measure way. One could easily see scenarios where MS more than makes up for the difference.
One thing is clear: None of the elites leaps out as clearly superior offensively. Flashing Blades offers the strongest effect at least when paired with JS+FF.
The End of MS/DB... Or Is It?
Carinae
syphonus
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
One thing is clear: None of the elites leaps out as clearly superior offensively. Flashing Blades offers the strongest effect at least when paired with JS+FF.
I guess I can agree with that 
Though, I've gotta say, I have been running into energy problems.
Though, I've gotta say, I have been running into energy problems.
Carnivorous Cupcake
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Originally Posted by Bobby2
WotA is superior to MS at single target DPS -when enemies die of 1 chain-. Makes sense, since it's a buff that applies to Lead-Offhand, marginal as it may be. So what you're saying is that MS doesn't do crap to boost your Lead+Offhand. Big deal?
Look, you can run almost any Blossom combo in PvE and have wimpy stuff dying within 1 chain. It's stuff that doesn't that warrant the usage of MS. Granted, now with Scan and SoH and whathaveyou those enemies have become increasingly rare, but at least MS has a function outside just letting you deal with trivial stuff a little bit faster.
tl;dr: To each his own.
Bobby, I never said what you quoted me for, it's not even my style. D: Ups.
Only thing I said in this thread is that taking LF is almost the same as taking WoTA (all buffs considered) only that WoTA benefits your lead/off-hand/dual better. Also that MS is somewhat better anyway.
Bobby2
Wait what? I still blame you for all of this!
Jaigoda
Why is everyone arguing about which bad elite to take? Just grab Flashing Blades or Fox's Promise (ups, your blocking argument went out the window...) and be done with it. Or, you could be wierd and take something like "Coward!" or "Charge!" or even Shattering Assault.
And to the Moebius advocates, you do realize MS slows down your attack speed a good bit? Slower attack speed = less SY coverage. Less SY coverage (just for a tiny ounce of extra damage) = bad. And of course, everyone brings buffs in PvE, which means your DPS is going to go through the roof compared to any Moebius build. There is all this argument over DPS, yet if you just grab Barbs or SoH, JS>FF will surpass MS>DB in sustained single-target DPS, if lacking a bit in sustained AoE DPS.
Also, the cycle for MS>DB is off. There are two possibilities. One is that you hit with MS, then DB, cancel your autoattack, and start DB as soon as it recharges. This results in the cycle being every 2.8911 seconds. However, you only get 3 attacks per cycle. You get right around 1.03 attacks per second. If you let the autoattack in, you get a cycle every 3.5644 seconds, but ~4.2 attacks every cycle (taking into account the chance for double strike on the autoattack). This equates an attack speed of ~1.18 attacks per second.
JS>FF>DB, on the other hand, has a cycle every 3.33 seconds, constricted by Fox Fang's recharge. In this time period, you can chain the following: JS>FF>DB>JS>autoattack. This can be done just in time for the recharge of FF. So, now you have an attack speed of 6 attacks per cycle, or ~1.81 attacks per second. If you don't use the second JS in the cycle, you get an attack speed of ~1.5 seconds.
What does this mean? It means that every second, you get about 80% more out of damage buffs with JS>FF than with MS>DB. Barbs at 14 Curses is +14 damage per hit. 14 * .80 = 11.2. This means you're getting 11.2 more DPS out of Barbs than Moebius Strike would. Don't even get me started about SoH. Oh, and of course all of this is multiplied further out of proportion by Asuran Scan.
This is the reason why JS>FF feels so much stronger than MS>DB. It's not because it gets to DB faster, it's becuase it just attacks a lot faster, plain and simple.
And to the Moebius advocates, you do realize MS slows down your attack speed a good bit? Slower attack speed = less SY coverage. Less SY coverage (just for a tiny ounce of extra damage) = bad. And of course, everyone brings buffs in PvE, which means your DPS is going to go through the roof compared to any Moebius build. There is all this argument over DPS, yet if you just grab Barbs or SoH, JS>FF will surpass MS>DB in sustained single-target DPS, if lacking a bit in sustained AoE DPS.
Also, the cycle for MS>DB is off. There are two possibilities. One is that you hit with MS, then DB, cancel your autoattack, and start DB as soon as it recharges. This results in the cycle being every 2.8911 seconds. However, you only get 3 attacks per cycle. You get right around 1.03 attacks per second. If you let the autoattack in, you get a cycle every 3.5644 seconds, but ~4.2 attacks every cycle (taking into account the chance for double strike on the autoattack). This equates an attack speed of ~1.18 attacks per second.
JS>FF>DB, on the other hand, has a cycle every 3.33 seconds, constricted by Fox Fang's recharge. In this time period, you can chain the following: JS>FF>DB>JS>autoattack. This can be done just in time for the recharge of FF. So, now you have an attack speed of 6 attacks per cycle, or ~1.81 attacks per second. If you don't use the second JS in the cycle, you get an attack speed of ~1.5 seconds.
What does this mean? It means that every second, you get about 80% more out of damage buffs with JS>FF than with MS>DB. Barbs at 14 Curses is +14 damage per hit. 14 * .80 = 11.2. This means you're getting 11.2 more DPS out of Barbs than Moebius Strike would. Don't even get me started about SoH. Oh, and of course all of this is multiplied further out of proportion by Asuran Scan.
This is the reason why JS>FF feels so much stronger than MS>DB. It's not because it gets to DB faster, it's becuase it just attacks a lot faster, plain and simple.
Tenebrae
I was reading the whole thread and i gotta say you guys gotta know the difference between playstyles. If this is a battle of "hey , look at my DPS , my e-peen is better than yours" while taking all aggro ( to count DB +dmg ) , ok , fine for me but there are other playstiles about MS/DB combo and with some elites around that do a good job.
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
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And no , LF is bloody good. If you play like "hey guys , do your job and i will get some fast kills with your buffs" with SoH and GDW on you , this happens with the right combo :
- Select non-called target ( mostly those who run to your monks ) and asuran+combo+autoattack . Target drops fast.
And about the elites :
Quote: Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Temple Strike - (~EH) expensive, highly situational, doesn't bring much all-around. Poor use of elite skill.Locust's Fury - (BAD) trivial single target damage boost. Poor use of elite skill.
WoTA - (BAD) trivial single target damage boost. Poor use of elite skill.
Flashing Blades - (GOOD) At last, a viable elite for JS+FF. Survivability is good. Deals some damage back.
Moebius - (DEPENDS) not needed for JS+FF, required for GFox. When paired with GFox is still best all-around option.
Coward! - (???) might be a useful choice for a JS+FF Sin. This might be better than TS (@traversc) provided you can kill the target before it gets up. Cheaper, better shutdown, works against any class. Also lets you keep /W for SY! -Agree on Temple
-Hell no on Locusts
-Nerfed IAS not worth , agree.
-Disagree, dont find it worth .
-Moebius is awesome
-Coward , just dont see it
As for the MS/DB vs JS/FF/DB discussion im gonna go with the first one for cases with higher foe lvl , being main melee or first drawing aggro and/or places with good blocking spots ; otherwise the second option is better with buffs imo.
Jaigoda
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Originally Posted by Tenebrae
Quote: Originally Posted by Tenebrae
And no , LF is bloody good. If you play like "hey guys , do your job and i will get some fast kills with your buffs" with SoH and GDW on you , this happens with the right combo :
- Select non-called target ( mostly those who run to your monks ) and asuran+combo+autoattack . Target drops fast. LF in this case (with only one autoattack per 3.33 sec cycle) is really not worthwhile. It provides around a 10% IAS on top of Critical Agility, or about 0.4 more attacks per cycle. IMO, you're going to be doing much more with a 75% maintainable block (FB) or anti-block (FP) elite than Locust's. However, if you are running with a ton of extra buffs, LF could be a pretty viable elite. I still wouldn't take it if I was H/H'ing.
I never EVER said that WOTA was better than FB. In fact, FB being superior follows quite naturally from my arguments. It's like you want to argue with me just for arguing, even when we basically agree on this particular point. Let me quote myself several times so you don't forget:- Select non-called target ( mostly those who run to your monks ) and asuran+combo+autoattack . Target drops fast. LF in this case (with only one autoattack per 3.33 sec cycle) is really not worthwhile. It provides around a 10% IAS on top of Critical Agility, or about 0.4 more attacks per cycle. IMO, you're going to be doing much more with a 75% maintainable block (FB) or anti-block (FP) elite than Locust's. However, if you are running with a ton of extra buffs, LF could be a pretty viable elite. I still wouldn't take it if I was H/H'ing.
You're again forgetting the part where BHA requires replacing one of your heroes.
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Flashing Blades would generate more DPS boost than WoTA, and have and SOLID additional effect as well.
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The point isn't that WoTA is a great elite choice.
The point isn't that WoTA is a great elite choice.
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First off, the double strike chance is multiplied, not added. LF with 14 Dagger Mastery gives exactly a 59.8% chance of double strike (basically 60% for all intents and purposes. And in this case, autoattacking is the least optimal option. Jagged Strike and Fox Fangs will always be faster because of the .5sec activation (you'd have to have close to a 100% double strike chance to compete with them), and Death is just a double strike on crack. Thus, if you had a choice between an attack skill and an autoattack here, you'd always pick the attack skill. And there is only one point in the chain where you have no other option than to autoattack. That means that in the entire chain, LF has a chance to trigger only once.|
Flashing Blades would be better all-around. For the JS+FF combo, WoTA is a poor elite choice, period. So, is LF.
The point isn't that WoTA is a great elite choice. Quote:
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Locust's Fury!!!11!! BUFFZ
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Heres the thing , you could say SF is horrible for normal gameplay but for farming and SC ? its awesome. Same happens with playstyles , if you are mister DPS to kill calledtarget fast well , those elites might not be good for you but if you like to use them, know how to , and stack buffs with proper team sync , i can tell you LF is great. If you dont believe me ok , i have no interest in making you a LF user
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LF in this case (with only one autoattack per 3.33 sec cycle) is really not worthwhile. It provides around a 10% IAS on top of Critical Agility, or about 0.4 more attacks per cycle. IMO, you're going to be doing much more with a 75% maintainable block (FB) or anti-block (FP) elite than Locust's. However, if you are running with a ton of extra buffs, LF could be a pretty viable elite. I still wouldn't take it if I was H/H'ing.
Thats what i said above , you are seeing LF as an elite to complete a "cycle" , wrong. With that elite you gotta focus in hitting as much as possible on a stationary target and using skills that are only worth using for good bonuses . Even not using skills you have an 83% percent chance of hitting twice in 0,94 sec ( attack speed with CA ) and if you have per-hit-bonuses like GDW , SOH and JI .Its a good damage, maybe not the best , but definately not bad.
Thats what i said above , you are seeing LF as an elite to complete a "cycle" , wrong. With that elite you gotta focus in hitting as much as possible on a stationary target and using skills that are only worth using for good bonuses . Even not using skills you have an 83% percent chance of hitting twice in 0,94 sec ( attack speed with CA ) and if you have per-hit-bonuses like GDW , SOH and JI .Its a good damage, maybe not the best , but definately not bad.
Now think from the outside , what would happen if LF gets buffed and ads for example a bonus per hit if foe/you is enchanted or if foe is suffering from a condition ? it would be bloody overpowered. Imagine a sin with only 2 skills ( asuran/fast condition skill and LF ) doing +2....10 ( +buffs ) per attack every 0.42 sec.
Just so you know, before the dagger skill buffs, I was a huge advocate of LF and it was the main build I played. But I realize that in this build, it's just not worth it. However, I did say somewhere in my last post that LF could be useful if you had a bunch of buffs stacked. Otherwise, it's very mediocre and there are much better elite choices.
Originally Posted by Tenebrae
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Now think from the outside , what would happen if LF gets buffed and ads for example a bonus per hit if foe/you is enchanted or if foe is suffering from a condition ? it would be bloody overpowered. Imagine a sin with only 2 skills ( asuran/fast condition skill and LF ) doing +2....10 ( +buffs ) per attack every 0.42 sec.
Of course that would be overpowered, but there's absolutely no point saying "oh, this elite would be great if they buffed it into heaven." Unless you know the buff's going to happen, that's an empty argument.
First off, the double strike chance is multiplied, not added. LF with 14 Dagger Mastery gives exactly a 59.8% chance of double strike (basically 60% for all intents and purposes. Bla bla
Maybe , but im so sure that flashing blades and fox promise arent either. Again , i tell you it highly depends on zone/mission you are playing :
- Drawing all agro to make the whole mob attack you so Flashing blades do something noticeable ? no thanks , bad idea . It only protects from autoattacks and phys attacks.
- Using an elite for not being blocked ? yeah , good on the paper but the truth is that if you are not gonna face blocking stances ( 75% of cases imo ) that skill is redundant/useless. And if you are going to face it , just take an unblockable combo and thats it. Ofc it ends if you are blinded/hexed and fail a single attack. See my point ? i can say those elites are bad too , depends on how you look at them .
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Originally Posted by Jaigoda
- Drawing all agro to make the whole mob attack you so Flashing blades do something noticeable ? no thanks , bad idea . It only protects from autoattacks and phys attacks.
- Using an elite for not being blocked ? yeah , good on the paper but the truth is that if you are not gonna face blocking stances ( 75% of cases imo ) that skill is redundant/useless. And if you are going to face it , just take an unblockable combo and thats it. Ofc it ends if you are blinded/hexed and fail a single attack. See my point ? i can say those elites are bad too , depends on how you look at them
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While your argument is true, I don't think it's really a big enough point to warrant using MS>DB. JS>FF still does a good amount more damage (and WAY more with buffs), and really doesn't have much less DB spammage. If it kills single targets faster, that just means it gets to the next foe even faster, rendering DB's AoE damage less useful.
Is not way way more with buffs , little more yes but as i said , depends on situation. Im not saying is better because is AoE armor ignoring damage like im a brainless kid , ofc if you are not going to take advantage of blocking foes path and attack a non called target to pump out more DB then is almost the same as the other combo.
I was just refering the higher enemy level because the MS/DB highly relies on repeating that chain and if the foe dies fast , that combo has no case.
I was just refering the higher enemy level because the MS/DB highly relies on repeating that chain and if the foe dies fast , that combo has no case.
