State of the Nolani

Super troll!

I'm so late to this convo, and I apologize I haven't addressed it as I've been busy but this has been discussed with me. (Ironically I do graphic design, more print then online work so this issue is near and dear to me.) I disagree with Slayer on the idea that art should be done for cheap or that there should be a single-file line for it. Viewing of art? Yes. Creation of art? No.

Artists possess a rare talent. It's something that is paid for. Good art gets charged more. And typically custom art even more! It is completely up to an artist to set the price that they want someone to pay (if someone desires it they will pay), and even more welcome for someone to pay more for something they want.

An artist is under no obligation to anyone to bring down their prices. If you don't want to pay it, then don't. If someone wants to pay more... then they're in line ahead of you. It's rather that simple. A good artist is going to stay in "business" with people who want his art at the price they are willing to pay. There's not enough traffic to justify separating out the section.

Sorry to be so harsh but the same system works in real life. In demand artists can push a client back for someone willing to pay more for a higher commissioned piece. I find it silly that some of those complaining about the long waits and prices are not artists themselves and all ready have multiple pieces done for them by various artists. I'm not identifying anyone but it should be obvious if you can't draw or do a piece such as it yourself then of course that artists time is in demand. It's up to the artist to decide how valuable that time is.

I know you wanted a discussion between the artists and clients but honestly, if someone wants the work they will pay for it. It's really in the hands of the artists. And if an artist is willing to do work for cheaper then that is their choice as well to gift that to people.

I know this section can actually be really helpful and quite an asset to new artists. To get critiques on their work, ideas for how to improve and more. If I can find a way to highlight these threads more I will be happy to do that. Or even if I can find some way to emphasis non-commission posts more if that's the artists' here desire. Let me know of any ideas you have so that we can improve the contributing nature of this forum. I don't believe a separation is the way to go but I am certainly open to ideas.

(And yes, I deleted out all the trolling as it derailed the thread.)

I agree except for the fact that the highest bidder may have a character that the artist thinks is butt-ugly. If it was real life money I'm sure that it would still be done but since it's in game gold I'd think that the interest should come from the artist. Hence my idea, they open a commission thread for example and perhaps name prices, but there is no waiting list. The artist themselves get to choose who they want to draw based on whatever (being easier, better looking, etc). Each artist may have different ideas on what they would prefer to draw.

Just observing the current active artists around Nolani nowadays, it seems that it has really become a painters' world around here.

*Hides her chibis and whistles inconspicuously*

I quite like the variation in styles and quality around here. I've come from a.. Uh, similar site to gaia myself, and it was always flooded with chibi/anime artists whilst, unless very popular, those with a more realistic style were pushed back to the bottom of the forum.

Not that I've a problem with anime-esque styles (hell, I sometimes draw in said style myself), it's just... Pleasant to see the variations.

As for pricing, I think tips are the safest way to go. I've noticed a few artists list what they recieve and whilst intimidating to buyers if the tips are high, I think it provides a reasonable price range to their artwork.

Hmmm are you saying we need more anime? I can do that!

Lately, there has been some unhappiness amongst people wanting art and somehow being unfortunate enough not to be able to get it.

As far as I know, discussing of matters in a sane, civil adult-like fashion, has always been encouraged as long as they conform to the rules of this forum. I would like to outline my opinion as to what the artist-client relationship should be, as far as my understanding of it goes. If you disagree with me, i would appreciate in hearing your counter-view. I would like to make it clear that i am speaking in broad general terms and as this has been an ongoing issue at Nolani since forever, perhaps we should clear it up once and for all.....

RE: Commissions and services
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Lets get technical :

An art advert under contract law is not an "offer" which upon acceptance of the "offeree" becomes a binding contract. There is no consideration in any way, shape of form to make it so.

Like shops, who may at any time refuse to sell you something, an art advert is an "invitation to treat". It is the client that makes the offer and the artist who finally decides if they will accept the offer. In the event the artist accepts the offer, there becomes a "binding" contract. I use the term "binding" here very loosely as this is a game enviroment and there is an unwritten rule that RL takes precedence over ingame or inforum matters at any given time. Furthermore there is no legal framework to enforce this "contract".

An artist is at anytime at liberty to refuse an offer, and even after a "deposit" is paid, i think most would agree that it is acceptable to cancel the contract provided all ingame funds are returned duly.

Although this may seem subjectively "unfair" to some, this is a real life practice for people who make their living through art and design. It is for practical reasons because a new "good" is being created and which is not as straightforward as transacting an already existing good such as an ingame weapon/materials/tonic. The practice takes into account the limited resources of time, energy and inspiration which are a variable human resource that are subjected to sometime inconceivable real life situations.
Hence, as unfair as it might seem, it exists only out of necessity and practicality.



RE: Free threads
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Although tips are appreciated, artists don't expect payment for free threads. Why do they do that one might wonder? So they get to draw a wider range of characters other than the usual YSJ, Hailfall (its a joke). They do it because they get some form of enjoyment out of it. I can ofc only speak for myself, i am not Star , Tzu or Blue. Free threads are nice because not every one has pots of money (or overflowing ectos) to throw at for commissions. But the artist needs something in return, which is the freedom to pick and choose which characters would give them a good time drawing. Yes, last week i drew necros exclusively. Why? cus i felt like it. Do i know who i'm going to draw next? nope it happens how it happens and who is online at the time i log in.

Free threads are giveaways. When stuff is being given out for free, it cannot fall into the laps of everyone. It is impossible because the supply is limited. It is not and has never been personal. Of course some people might take offense at not being picked or chosen, but that's really their problem not the artist's. However if you are going to piss the artist of in some way, then it is more than likely they will not be endowed with the motivation to do a piece of art for you. At that point it might become personal .

RE: Prices
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As Inde has clearly outlined in her earlier post, an artist is at liberty to charge whatever they want for their work. If you think its too "steep" it is perhaps that you have simply placed a lower value on their work then they have. Just as a client is within their rights to offer an invitation to treat or not, an artist is equally within their rights if they feel that a client has not placed sufficient value on their work and therefore do not feel inclined towards doing the piece.

More often then not, it is not about the Plat, it is about the egos, and artists have more often than not pretty sensitive ones. It is probably not a great idea to tell an artist they are 'expensive' it is like telling them, your work isn't worth that much. They are very likely to see your gesture as bad manners and to tell you directly or indirectly to go away and do it yourself.

Artists in Nolani, unlike the real world, are not starving and desperate for work. They do it cus they have a good time doing it. Using the simple economical model of supply and demand. If a price isn't high enough, the drawing simply becomes much less attractive to do.

Basic Respect
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Like any other members of the human race, artists and clients alike would like to be treated with basic respect. While none of us are perfect and are occasionally predisposed to flare ups etc., i think it would be a good idea to have at least basic respect between artist and client. If you want someone to draw for you or are interested in drawing for a certain client, it helps nothing if posts are made all over Nolani that carry innuendos that attack the integrity or professionalism of the artist/client. It is also bad manners to start something in the thread of an innocent third party without their consent, whatever your frustrations. (friendly trolling exempted esp. if its YSJ.) Unfortunately, if you attack someone, they will more than likely hit back. That is when the thing tends to spiral and the Mods have to step in and intervene. We can avoid such instances simply by employing basic respect.

Favourtism
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It is no secret that artists will draw for people they like, especially if there is friendship involved. That happens in the real world to. Doing something for someone you like or because you think they deserve it gives someone a nice warm feeling. Not much can be said about that but.... get over it and maybe make friends with some artists :P

Social groups will form in all human situations. From prison to kindergarten. But i do not think it applies to getting art. If you look at the number of avatars i've personally made on my graphics thread, it is proof in contravention to the belief that i only do commissions for people i talk to and hang out with.

Hasn't this been posted on at least 2 other threads already? <<

There seem to be two slightly different arguments going on.... most people are discussing artists' rights, and there's another one about the social/clique situation in Nolani which people understandably avoid.



RE Commissions and Services: Agreed, hoodie.

RE Free Threads: The intention is (hopefully) never personal, but nonetheless bias/'personal' stuff will creep in no matter what.

RE Prices: lol agreed, agreed and agreed again.

Honestly? Cliques happen. It's ridiculous to believe otherwise. You toss together a bunch of people with similar interests and small groups will form.

But. I will say this. I've gone through school and everything, and am an adult now, so I know how cliques can be. I've been on many a website, some with nicer userbases than others. And yes, GWG is full of cliques. But Nolani? Is probably the nicest section of the site. That's not to say we're all happiness and light and rainbows and unicorns, but in general I find Nolani regulars to be nicer and more welcoming than those in other parts of this forum.

So yeah, there's definitely a clique mentality here. But that fact is really not so evil as people can make it out to be. Personally, if you're willing to be a decent person, I'll be friendly with you. I'd like to think that I'm normally a pretty nice person

But I do certainly like the feeling and atmosphere of Nolani better than most of the rest of GWG.

Yes, cliques happen. I stopped QQing about it a while ago. What I don't get is why everyone is still getting on Caged's arse about it. I think you guys have made your opinions very clear, so there's no need to keep reiterating it. Why can't we just all accept "human nature" and leave it at that, since that's the point you seem to want to make.

...kay, I'm not going to get into the whole artists and fragile egos thing that hoodie mentioned earlier, because it's true, and god help you if you insult a well-liked artist on an art forum. Figures it would be a nice place, right? The rest of forums--actually, forums in general--are full of trolls. There are less "trolls" on Nolani because it's not considered socially acceptable here.

Honestly the rest of the forum is the way it is because the game is the way it is currently. Hard to be nice nice and everything on forums when the company that runs the game has us always wanting their heads on pikes for shit they did.

I haven't been here long enough to know what this forum was like before, although I do agree with Hoodie.

Verene, i think ur art is fine. Just open up a commission thread.