A Third Glance at Spirits, Undead, and Constructs

Note: This is the last update of this research until I can fully (or mostly) explore and research Guild Wars 2 after its release.

Spirits



First, there are three stages of "life," which is how the first part of this topic is split up. Each stage deals with a different type of body or location. The stages, as I have named them, are “Mortal Life,” “Ghostly Life,” and “Afterworld Life.”

Stage 1: Mortal Life

This stage is the life of corporeal beings, with physical bodies. Basically, it is the original life of creatures.

How I view this stage of life is that there is a physical body that traps (for lack of a better word) the soul and keeps it in the physical world. While it traps the soul, it also protects the soul, preventing any damage to it. The reason why I say "trap" is because the soul cannot freely leave the physical body, not like many would want it to. The “Mortal Life” can take place on any plane of existence, whether it is Tyria, or somewhere within the Rift where the spirits seem to go.

As evidence by Shiro, it is possible to return to this stage, through use of powerful magic. Because Shiro was able to return to his mortal body, something I now wonder is "Will we meet others who will return from the later stages to the 'Mortal Life?'"

That is, other then the undead and constructs, which are souls who were forced into inanimate bodies and inanimate objects (respectively), unlike Shiro, who took on flesh and bone from his spirit form. But these are for later discussions.

Stage 2: Ghostly Life

In this stage, souls wonder the world, waiting to be taken to their afterlife destination (usually the Underworld, sometimes other realm of the gods). It is this stage that all of the spirits in the world are in (i.e. the spirits in the Crystal Desert, Desolation, Ascalon, etc.).

This stage can also be considered the stage for "spirits who cannot find rest," as this is the same idea. Spirits here are simply waiting to move on, or unable to move on due to some regret or mistake regarding their "Mortal Life." For instance, the spirits in the Crystal Desert and the Desolation are unable to move on due to one of two things: First, wanting to finish the journey/be reunited with their loved ones. Second, wishing to see Turai Ossa go through Ascension (which is implied to happen when the heroes Ascend, by Turai’s dialogue in Amnoon Oasis):

When under the order of the gods, it seems that spirits are allowed to travel between this stage and the next stage freely. This is most evident by the Avatar of the gods (most of which look like spirits, Lyssa being the exception) – who grant special people access to their god’s realm and in some cases guide a spirit themselves – and the Envoys (as they are the spirits of past criminals) – who have to shepherd the dead.



Stage 3: Afterworld Life

First, I will start off by saying that there seems to be two ways into this stage. The first being obvious, an Envoy takes the spirit to the Underworld – or a spirit is taken by an Avatar to the respective Realm. The second is that when a ghost is killed, it is sent to the Mists, supposedly the Rift (see my theory on the Rift here).

The evidence I have for this is the quest Refuse the King, mainly the reward dialogue:

Seeing how those who take this quest has to kill the spirit of King Jahnus, and his spirit is sent to the Underworld, then that means that killing a spirit that is in the "Ghostly Stage" just sends it to the next life.

The biggest mystery in all of this is what happens to the spirit if it is killed in the Rift. Vizier Khilbron and Shiro Tagachi are perfect examples for this. After the heroes killed them in the Gate of Madness, as they were spirits, what happens to them?

Well, as it seems, what happens to the spirit depends on how the spirit “died.”

Outcome 1

When a spirit is killed in the Rift, it disappears forever. This currently has little to no support, and is just a common belief of what happens to a spirit. The most common background for this belief would be an “exorcism.” If this outcome ever happens, it would be a rare outcome and would only happen in unusual times (as this happening a lot would throw the universe out of balance – see below for why – that is, if this ever occurs).

Outcome 2

The second possibility would be when the spirit dies in the Rift, the "spirit energy," as one can call it, is sent back to the Mist. This would be the case for most of the deaths of spirits, as the Mist cannot create something out of nothing (despite it being “just a game” as many who are not interested in lore would say, even the universe of Guild Wars must rely on physics most of the time), and energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Because energy cannot be created or destroyed, a soul cannot be created out of nothing, and therefore the Mists must gain something or else all new life will eventually stop. The best source of this “something” would be the energy from spirits when they get killed. This would mean there is reincarnation – to a degree – however, it is possible that the “spirit energy” can mix, therefore the next spirit (and, in effect, living being), would not be the same being.

Outcome 3

The final outcome is to be eaten by a demon, or something demonic, such as a Margonite. Along with what happens to a spirit when they die normally, we do not know what actually happens to a spirit when they are eaten.

According to the quests Vanishing Spirits, A Tasty Morsel, and The Growing Threat, it is known that Margonites and Torment Demons eat spirits as food.

What I see as the most likely thing to happen would be the same as the above Outcome 1, the complete destruction of the soul. However, the difference between here and Outcome 1 is that, while Outcome 1 has no export for the energy of the soul, being eaten does have an export of energy.

This Outcome would support why Dhuum’s and Menzies’ forces attacked the Hall of Heroes, to gain a food supply for the upcoming attempt to release Abaddon (which would also be why the Fury attacked Shing Jea during the Dragon Festival, to gather the Celestial Essences as a food supply – as Celestial Essences appear to be the same substance as a spirit.

River of Souls

A lovely topic with the Rift and spirits is the River of Souls. There are many thoughts about this going all over, most dominant seems to be that many people believe that it is the River of Souls that decides where people go. This is far from correct, and we have but to thank the incorrect person who put this idea on the wiki for this. The River of Souls’ purpose is unknown.

However, I have a theory of its purpose. One belief is that it goes through all the Realms of the Gods, I would agree to this. But I will expand on this idea. I believe that the River of Souls goes in a circular path, never ending, never beginning. Some spirits are stuck in this River, as punishment, similar to that of the Envoys, but this is a lesser punishment.

From death, the spirit is taken to Grenth to be judged by the Envoys, except in rare cases. After being judged by Grenth, they are put in the River of Souls and the River takes the spirit to its correct resting place, as such, it passes through all the Realms, and nearby the Hall of Heroes, until it comes back to the Underworld.

The River of Souls never “dries up” because there are the spirits who are meant to be the “inter-Realm guides” for other spirits. These punished spirits could very well be the ones that help break the dam in the Gate of Pain mission.

Formless Spirits

While most Spirits have a shape and look like normal creatures, there are some Spirits that are seen that have no form. These are rare encounters, but everyone has seen them.

“Normal” Formless Spirits

These Formless Spirits are seen during Halloween, in Lion’s Arch (and possibly other towns) and in the River of Souls. These look like your typical depictions of a ghost, a white creature with a head, hands, torso, and looks like it’s wearing a sheet over it. At first, I thought that these spirits are the spirits of those who had little power (i.e., did not have a profession) in life. However, the Ghosts in the Crystal Desert, Desolation, and the Realm of Torment and Underworld disprove that.

“Demonic” Formless Spirits

These Formless Spirits are seen during Halloween, above the cauldron in Lion’s Arch and Tombs of the Primeval Kings (possibly other towns as well), are seen in Abaddon’s Mouth (the bridge prior to the Bloodstone), it’s counter-part bridge in the Gate of Abaddon, and coming out of the Door of Komali (along with being on the other side of the Door of Komali). These Spirits are similar to the Normal Formless Spirits, however, they have horns on their heads, and seem to be a little slimmer.

My current theory about these two Formless Spirits is that the “Demonic” Formless Spirits are the spirits of those who were evil in life and the “Normal” Formless Spirits were good in life.

I believe that their form is the true form of spirits. Seeing how denial and disoritentation are “common among the newly dead” (stated by the Envoys), those who don’t subconsciously take on their “real form” when they die are in denial of the fact that they died and subconsciously took a form, while those who know themselves to be dead could choose to take on their true form.

This is supported by the Ascalonian Spirits in the Desolation (Ruras, Chessa, Larano, and Kane) who have no idea that they are dead (even when looking at each other) and therefore would never have been able to take on this shapeless form. Unfortunately, there is no dialogue of or from these formless spirits and thus cannot support (or deny for that matter) this theory from the formless spirits’ point of view.

Another possibility is that these formless spirits are just simply “another model” of spirits – that is, a model used by the developers to avoid the boundaries of the lack of a Z-axis (thus no lore value to them aside from the fact that the common model is just a non-lore related “limited form”).

Envoys



The Envoys were, in the past, great villains. After death, they were punished with the task of guiding the newly dead spirits to the Rift. Usually, the Envoys would take the spirits to the Underworld, but on rare occasions – such as Shiro Tagachi’s second death – would take spirits to the Realm of Torment.

While punished into a forced “community service” by Grenth, they are also given very strong powers. Such as controlling spirits, and the ability to resurrect people easily.

Spirits of the Wild

These “Spirits of the Wild” are an interesting thing to look at, as we know very little about them. What we know of them can be summarized with Egil Fireteller’s dialogue in Jaga Moraine:

There are at least seven “good” spirits among the Norn folklore, these all take the aspect of an animal (Bear, Wolf, Raven, Snow Leopard, Owl, Wurm, and Ox). Along with these, there are at least four “evil” spirits, which take on aspect of nature (Mountains, Seasons, Fire, and Darkness).

Animal Spirits

There are several traits that each spirit has, and (at least for the animal spirits) each seems to have its own personality. For instance, the Raven Spirit is a trickster, cunning, wise and is connected to the Underworld, while the Wolf Spirit is a tracker, savage, and represents the thrill of battle. These spirits are much like avatars of the gods, in terms of power and some representation. However, overall, the connections fail due to far too much cress-crossing of representations. Due to this, for the time being, it is too hard to tell of the origin or nature of these spirits.

Hostile Spirits

As for the “nature spirits”, it seems that the Norn just link an aspect of nature to have a hostile spirit because these parts of nature prove as challenges to the Norn, that they might not be interested in (they are more interested in fighting then trying to survive blizzards and the like). Each of the Nature Spirits that we know of can be related to something in the Far Shiverpeaks that prove troublesome for the Norn, without giving a challenging fight.

It has been brought to me that these spirits could be hostile spirits which hide or affiliate themselves to aspects of nature – such as the Vaettir.

Summoned Spirits

Nature Spirits

This is a short and simple thing. Although they have the name "spirit" in them, they are not the same type of spirit as a soul. As their own name says, they are Nature Spirits, which are, technically, aspects of Nature, from winter to Favored Winds, they all bring about a different natural affect.

Interesting thing to note, is that none of these Nature Spirits share a name with a known Norn Nature Spirit, while some ideas can be seen to be similar between what we know of the Norn Nature Spirits and these Nature Spirits.

Binding Ritual Spirits

The quest Haunted helps explain where the spirits that Ritualists summon come from. Although not directly explained, it has spirits summoned with the names Anguish, Sorrow, and Regret, and those spirits are suffering from such things. It seems to me, that the spirits that are summoned are regular spirits, that are filled with a certain type of emotion (e.g. Pain, Anguish, etc). It also seems that the more the emotion is stuck in them, the stronger it is.

Now of course not all of the spirits have the emotion of the name, as Empowerment and the like are not emotions. But they have the intent to do what the spirit does, such as the intent to help, so it’s not jut emotions, but personality and intentions as well.

In other words, the spirits that Ritualists summon are regular spirits that just take the form of those aspects, as they are bound to where they are summoned (other spirits are not bound, so they have the shape of their physical form). When a summed spirit "dies" - whether by damage or time – it simply returns to the afterlife which it came.

Undeath



As we all know, undead are dead bodies that have been animated. And of course, only a Necromancer can make an undead. True undead, not minions like what those of the *barely mentioned* "Order" of the Necromancers create, are created by attaching a soul to a dead body, creating an *usually* obedient servant.

This means that the spirit is trapped within the body, forcing a second Mortal life on the spirit. When that body is killed *again*, the spirit would be released and move to the next stage, a Ghostly Life, until the spirit is taken to the Rift or is put into yet another dead body to create a new undead.

Difference between Minions and Undead



There are two differences between minions and true undead, but these two things make the two completely different as well.

The first difference is the physical difference. Minions are formed of shambles of bone and flesh, while undead are formed of the entire body *or what is left of it*. This means that an undead’s body is much more stable then that of a minion, which is why a minion will die over time, while an Undead will not.

The second difference is how they are made. Minions are created from just a portion of the Necromancer’s energy, while undead are created from the use of an entire spirit, and probably the creator’s energy as well (and a lot more of it to add). This means that it is more difficult to make an undead compared to making a minion.

Afflicted

Afflicted, despite their origins, are very much like undead, and can even be considered a sub-species of undead. They are created by Shiro when he does not move spirits to their destination. However, their appearance seems to be caused by the plague, not a cause of them being undead.

In the Minister Cho’s Estate mission, Cho dies, then he becomes an afflicted. Likewise, in the Vizunah Square mission, those affected by the plague (those that are maddened, and hostile) and those just in the nearby area become afflicted after they die.

Also, there are the quests Drink from the Chalice of Corruption and Chasing Zenmai. These two quests show the ability to “imbue” the affliction without the help of Shiro, and well after he is sent into the Realm of Torment. This then goes against the initial idea that the Afflicted are a form of undead.

Through those two quests and two missions, there is a way to suggest the Afflicted being Undead even without Shiro. The Chalice can cause the “disease” part of the affliction, then a Necromancer, or both a Necromancer and Ritualist chain the soul to the body. The most likely people for this job among the Am Fah would be:

Chan the Dragon's Blood (Necromancer) – Said to do “anything what so ever to get what he wants.” By the Most Wanted Am Fah # 2 sign in the P.O.X. mission.
Brother Tosai (Profession Unknown) – Involved with the quest
Cho, Spirit Empath (Ritualist)



Liches



Liches are powerful magicians that casted a spell before they died that would preserve their spirit in their body.

There are three known liches - Vizier Khilbron, aka Undead Lich, Palawa Joko, and Zoldark - and of these liches, only one's origin is known. That being Khilbron, an Orrian Vizier who was corrupted by Abaddon and used an ancient scroll to destroy Orr, which in turn, transformed him into a lich. Palawa Joko's and Zoldark's origins are unknown as of now, and it seems that Zoldark will not be mentioned again in the future as he was just a side-boss that we killed *supposedly, it is unknown if he, like Joko and Khilbron, can reanimate himself*.

As I just stated, Palawa Joko and Vizier Khilbron can both reanimate themselves upon death. That is, their souls do not leave their bodies. This is the main thing that separates a "True Lich" from the powerful Undead that lead others. It is because of this, that Zoldark may not be a "True Lich," but just a powerful undead. It is also known that "True Liches" have to be killed in a very specific way, such as how we kill Khilbron.

Vizier Khilbron

How Khilbron became a lich by reading the words on the Forbidden Scroll. This would mean that the making of a lich would require powerful magic – possibly requiring magic from pre-Bloodstone times, as the Forbidden Scroll held the magic of all four schools.

Nature of the Cataclysm and How it made Khilbron a Lich

As the Forbidden Scroll contains magic of all four schools, that means that it may take all four schools of magic – or at least more then one – to make a Lich. The four schools are: Preservation (Linked to Monk), Aggression (Linked to Necromancer), Denial (Linked to Mesmer), and Destruction (Linked to Elementalist). The Destruction school of magic is what would have caused the blast. Denial could have prevented the souls of the Orrians to go to the Rift – which means that very few were unaffected by the Denial part. Aggression would have made the Orrians, primarily Khilbron, into Undead. Preservation, which would have only affected Khilbron in this case, resurrected him – and made it so that he could not die a true permanent resurrection.

Khilbron’s Appearance

As many can tell, Khilbron’s appearance in his true form after the Cataclysm is very much draconic. This could easily be because of his proximity to Zhaitan, seeing how Arah was built over Zhaitan.

Palawa Joko

By going off of the idea that it was the Cataclysm that caused Khilbron to become a lich, then a powerful magic would have been needed to turn Palawa Joko into a lLich. At least two schools of magic seems to be needed to make a “True Lich” – Aggression and Preservation. As only two schools of magic can be wielded by a single person, it is possible to make a “True Lich” after the Bloodstone’s creation – however, it would either be easier with at least two powerful mages (a Monk and a Necromancer) or magic prior to the Bloodstones. Aggression would have no range in what it affects, but Preservation would only affect the one who becomes a “True Lich.” The event that best fits the time for Palawa Joko’s becoming of a Lich would be the Scarab Plague.

Nature of the Scarab Plague and How it is connected to Palawa Joko

As stated, only Aggression and Preservation would be needed to make a Lich. The Scarab Plague would only see the affects of Aggression, as Palawa Joko is the only Lich – that we know of – in Elona (therefore only Lich possibly created at this time). The Scarab Plague is believed to be caused by scarabs coming out of people’s skin after the ingestion of scarab eggs. But what would cause the eggs to not get dissolved by stomach acid? Well, the most likely Bloodstone to be Aggression is in Bloodstone Caves, and that gives health upon the death of others, so the scarab eggs – and the scarabs in those eggs – became aggravated, hatching prior to proper ingestion, allowing the scarab babies to live and burrow out of the victims’ skin.

Zoldark the Unholy

While Zoldark is a lich, I do not call him a “True Lich” as he dies. His origins are completely unknown as there is no major event on Tyria – that we know about – that could be Zoldark’s source. He may in fact be the oldest Undead in all of Tyria. All that is known is that he is ancient and was sealed away – meaning that he could not be killed when he was last loose. This may mean that his “death” was just a fake when he gets killed. Knowing he could not win the fight, instead of constantly suffering, he just plays dead – similar to The Hunter in the Realm of Torment – and waits for us to leave. His power over his minions may simply fade away while “faking” his death, which would further convince his enemies that he is dead.

This may mean that we could very well see Zoldark in GW2.

Zhaitan



Sadly, even with the name, very little is known about Zhaitan, who resides under Orr. But what is known is that it is able to change at least the dead into draconic undead servants – possibly the living as well. This implies that Zhaitan acts very similar to that of a lich. Also, it’s possible that Zhaitan has the ability to create “True Liches” himself, as such he could be a combination of both Zoldark’s power and a “True Liches” power. In that, the “True Liches” he makes are in fact just simply very power Undead (like Zoldark) who are bound to be eternal servants (like Zoldark’s servants) until Zhaitan’s own death.

Constructs

What are Constructs?

Constructs are, in simplest terms, spirits that have been put, whether by force or by self-will, into materialistic bodies. Constructs are very similar to undead, in that a spirit is put into a formerly inanimate object.

Difference between Constructs and Elementals/Golems

Constructs and elementals and golems are seemingly commonly misinterpreted to be the same thing. This is not true. While elementals and golems can be considered the same – which they are technically are not – constructs on the other hand cannot. There are three main differences between constructs and elementals and golems.

The first difference is the source of animation. This is also the main difference. Constructs are animated by souls of the dead – much like undead – which is the reason why I add them to my research. Elementals and golems are animated by Magic. The only connection that this difference has is where magic actually comes from. There is a theory that magic is the power of the Mists themselves, and the souls are a part of the Mists. If this is the case, the difference would be reduced to the amount of the soul used to power the object.

The second difference is the Material used, although this is more of a difference for telling golems apart from elementals, this also is a difference for constructs. Constructs can be made out of any material and be called a construct – excluding full bodies, that is an Undead, however parts of a body is different. Elementals are made from nature and the elements themselves – any form of the four basic elements of Fire, Water, Air, and Earth (unless you go by Ancient Chinese elements there would be five, adding Metal), and can also be made from non basic elements such as Ice, Lava, Crystal, and Sand. Golems can be made from any material (usually not including any body parts, but very well could) and therefore is not limited to the elements. Asuran GOLEMs for instance use metal and plants.

The last difference is the realm of professions which would control these three things. Constructs, like undead, and would fall under the ability of Necromancers and Ritualists – mainly Necromancers. Elementals and golems would fall under the ability of Elementalists and Mesmers – mainly Elementalists.

Things Commonly Believed to be Constructs which are not:

Stone Summit golems – Elemental, created by Magic
Asuran GOLEMs – Golem, created by Magic
Graven Monoliths – Golem, Source Unknown, most likely Abaddon’s Magic, plausible but highly unlikely to be constructs
Roaring Ethers – Elemental

Enchanted Armors



The origins of the Enchanted in the Crystal Desert are unknown. Although their naming goes by what weapon they use, in order to separate them from the Enchanted Weapons in the Dungeons of Eye of the North, I am calling these Enchanted Armors – which is nothing new for their names.

Because their origins are unknown, their source of animation is also unknown; therefore they can go under the category of “golem” just as much as a “construct.” The only thing known about them is that they are animated armors that fill the two “attacker” core professions that the Forgotten do not use, thus implying that are Forgotten made – i.e., that they are golems and not constructs.

As well, the name of these imply that these are simply magic animated, therefore Golems.

Jade Armors



The Jade Armors are also confusing on whether they are actual constructs or simply golems. There are three theories about how these Jade Armors are animated and controlled. The first and longest existing is that they are constructs that are powered by the souls of the Chosen slain on the Bloodstones – just like Soul Batteries are. This I find unlikely due to the fact that after putting the soul into the Jade Armor, the Mursaat would then need to control them. There are not that many Soul Batteries to control and they are all stationary, so comparing Soul Batteries to Jade Armors, which are much more numerous and mobile – therefore a bigger threat if they were not allied with the Mursaat or constantly controlled – is like comparing a group of ten to a group of a hundred. In short, there are too many Jade Armors for the Mursaat to control along side the Soul Batteries.

Another theory that is out and about is that it is in fact Mursaat souls that are controlling these things. This would be done the same way Lazarus split himself into many aspects to survive the Titan onslaught. This I find to be much more reasonable.

The third theory is that the Jade Armors are in fact golems, therefore animated and controlled by magic. Also reasonable but has the same downside as the first theory – the amount of Jade Armors that exist would make it hard to control them all.

Titans

The Titans are constructs that are formed by tormented spirits. Their physical appearance resembles the area in which they are currently in. Due to such, they have no true “form.” The way in which they are exactly formed is unknown, but it is known that The Fury was in charge of making the Titans. Once killed, they spawn other – smaller – titans, which almost always have different profession than the originals. Also, most of their leaders’ names are Latin – and those that are not Latin sound like Latin. There is no known singular leader of the Titans that is a Titan itself.



Juggernaut

Juggernauts are constructs of nature and plants. Formed by the Forever Trees and powered by a volunteer Kurzick’s soul. Juggernauts are immortal constructs as long as the Forever Trees remain – which make these fighters powerful due to their own strength, and fearlessness. Many see the creation of the Juggernauts as “barbaric” by “sacrificing” – something that is not true, as sacrificing means death and Juggernauts still hold their own free will and their own personality, they just give up their bodies – others to guard the Kurzick leaders, while these volunteers are, by the term, wishing to do this – for various reasons. This can be seen as barbaric to outsiders but is far from it from insiders, just as Aztecs may seem barbaric to others, but not to themselves.



Stone Guardians

There are two types of Stone Guardians, Temple Guardians and Kurzick Guardians. Temple Guardians are unknown in their source of animation. Could be that they are golems just as well as being constructs. These constructs seem to have a single goal: Guard the area in which they are in. Usually they seem to bend to the will of those with Royal Blood (as when Kisu is present, they are all docile, but after Shiro past – who has the blood of the first emperor – they are hostile). Only problem with this is that they attack Togo as well – but that could be that they are following Shiro’s will, which would include killing Togo.

The Kurzick Guardians are empowered and animated by the House zu Heltzer. Originally made along with wards to protect the Kurzicks from danger, their wards can fail and the constructs – or golems – could turn against the Kurzicks until a Stone Singer goes to control them again. As mentioned, the Kurzick Guardians are also unknown whether they are true constructs or simple golems. It would seem to be the later though.

Shiro'Ken

In order to create Shiro'ken, Shiro must take spirits and bind them to Soul Stones, which then control armor and other objects, such as bone, flesh, and scraps of metal. These constructs are the more like undead then any other construct, because Shiro’ken are all fleshy creatures, but are not living things in any ways. Excluding some special Titans, they are the only fleshy constructs.

The Spirits that inhabit Shiro’ken can be Human, Naga, Mantids, or anything. As they are all controlled by Shiro, what spirits he uses does not matter as long as, in life, they had magical powers.

It is very possible that Shiro took the spirits of all the enemies we killed on our quest to kill him and turned them into Shiro’ken, including those of Afflicted. This would explain how he got such a big army so fast – as what we see in Raisu Palace is not even half of his Shiro’ken army.



Shiro’ken in the Realm of Torment

These Shiro’ken are of a slightly different class than the Shiro’ken. Although still spirits trapped by armor and other materials, they are inhabited by the spirits of those in the Realm of Torment, giving him a much wider range of army “material.” Most of the spirits in the Realm of Torment are Humans, so most of the Shiro’ken must then be Human too.

What is interesting to note is the lack of Shiro’ken in the Realm of Torment. They are only encountered in two quest chains (the one dealing with "The Hunter" and Fortune Teller) and one mission (Gate of Madness). There should be even more Shiro’ken, seeing how material is not an issue, and spirits are in very big supply.

Enchanted Weapons

Just as with Enchanted Armors, their name implies being animated by magic, and therefore being golems. However, the creatures in the places they are placed with may say otherwise. Enchanted Weapons are always seen with either Forge Masters – in Catacombs of Kathandrax and Bloodstone Caves – and with undead. The Forge Masters in the Bloodstone Caves are believed to be controlled with aspects of surviving Mursaat (implied through quest dialogue for the dungeon). Undead are animated by spirits not magic. Due to this, it can be surmised that the Enchanted Weapons are constructs.

However, those with Forge Masters are also tied to their life. If the Forge Master dies, then the Enchanted Shields around them die. This implies that at least the shields are magically powered – therefore I come to this conclusion:

Enchanted Weapons are a combination of constructs and golems.

interesting, nicely prsented (in most parts, im slighlty sceptical of the info on Jade Armors particularlly) however, im not sure ur rules of "life" apply to GW perfectly.

*Copy and paste for any research assignment for the future*

Anyway,hats off that's some good shiz.

Actually, conservation of energy, while observed exclusively in our own universe, is possibly one of the easier things you can get away with violating in a fantasy universe - as long as it's mostly conserved, then you could get away with having situations in which it appears out of nothing or disappears into nothing. (Of course, in such circumstances it would be reasonable to theorise that the energy is actually coming from or being sucked into another level of existence that we cannot perceive, which is just offsetting the issue, but if there are specific circumstances that conservation of energy can be violated, this may still allow the rest of the laws of physics to work well enough for a fantasy universe.

I'd hesitate before declaring that the process of becoming Affliction actually involves death - the apparent death and resurrection may simply be the mechanics ANet has used to represent the character collapsing onto the ground as their body undergoes massive changes as the Affliction enters its final stage, until the physical changes are complete and the sufferer rises again as a fully-formed Afflicted. Likewise, I don't think it can be confirmed that they're the result of Shiro not moving spirits on - we know what he does with those spirits (namely, shoving them into Shiro'ken) and we know that the Affliction is an effect of Shiro's presence, but I don't think it can be stated as fact that the Affliction is the result of the universe being tipped out of balance in that way - it may be that his proximity causes the Affliction in some other fashion.

Furthermore, if we simply treat the Affliction as a disease (albeit a supernatural one), it doesn't require the intervention of a Necromancer or Ritualist - corporeal or otherwise - to create one; simply that the victim succumb to the disease.

I must say that I find this hard to consider a strong argument. For all we know controlling a legion of Jades may be trivial even for a single Mursaat.

Personally, my suspicion is that if the Jades are constructs powered by the souls of the Chosen, then this is all that the soul provides - motive energy, with the constructs will completely subordinate to its programming or the will of a controlling Mursaat. Essentially, they'd be soul-powered robots.

A simple explanation for this is that while in high supply, they're also in high demand - to produce Shiro'ken, Shiro is competing with demons who want to eat the souls, the Fury who wishes to forge those souls into Titans (actually, this gives me an idea - see below, if I remember to put it in by the time I've finished), and who knows how many other uses the denizens of the Realm of Torment may have for souls. Shiro may simply be outcompeted by demands for souls from other entities.

Another theory I have is that Shiro'ken require a single soul above a certain level of power to be bound - the numbers at the Imperial Palace suggest that this cutoff can't be too high, but considering that the heroes within Tahnnakai Temple were basically simply Shiro'ken bosses, it seems reasonable to require that a soul at least be established in an adventuring profession in order to be a suitable candidate - meaning that while still fairly common, suitable candidates remain a minority in the total number of souls available. This, combined with the competition and the fact that Shiro had only been in Torment for three years (possibly lowering him on the totem pole when it comes to receiving choice souls compared to older, more established denizens of Torment), may serve to explain the relatively low numbers of Shiro'ken in Torment.

Now, onto that aside on the Titans: At first glance, it appears curious that the home of the Titans is also the last bastion of Abaddon's Dhuumish allies - but on further consideration, this might actually explain a discrepancy - that the Titans are often implied to be ancient, but are servants of Abaddon (which would intuitively place their creation as being within the last thousand years). However, what if they originally weren't creations of Abaddon, but of Dhuum? The twisting of souls into Titans would certainly serve as a justification for the labelling of Dhuum's treatment of the dead as unjust, and such an origin would justify the label of the Titans as ancient in a way that a mere thousand years of existence really doesn't. The question then remains of how they ended up in Torment. One possibility is simply that Abaddon knew the process Dhuum had used and replicated it, creating an entirely new batch of Titans. However, a more interesting possibility could be raised by considering that even within the prison-realm of the Realm of Torment, the Foundry served as a prison. Could the Foundry have been the place where the gods imprisoned the Titans after Dhuum's fall, even before the Abaddon's realm was converted into a prison?

Perhaps the Foundry was the original prison-dimension, and the gods simply attached Abaddon's realm to it after his defeat (possibly in much the same way that Abaddon was planning to merge Tyria to the Realm of Torment if Nightfall had been left unopposed). Or perhaps the Foundry was always a part of the realm of the god of knowledge - perhaps Abaddon took up the responsibility of incorporating the prison of the Titans because the confinement of the results of dangerous knowledge such as that required to create Titans was part of his domain, because he was already gathering fell creatures to himself in anticipation of a time when he may seek to challenge the other gods, or maybe every god has some part of their realm set aside for the confinement of undesirables.

This, of course, raises the question of just why the gods confined the Titans rather than destroying them. One explanation may be a form of misplaced mercy, but a simpler may be that once created, the spirit of a Titan can never actually be destroyed, only its physical form dismembered and its spirit sucked back into the Foundry. We are assuming, here, that the Titans can't simply reform on Tyria after their dismemberment or we'd have never got rid of them after Prophecies - however, it might explain the nature of the Titan Source if its function was to allow Titans already on Tyria to reform there after dismemberment rather than being forced to return to the Foundry. On the other hand, maybe they simply skedaddled into remote parts of Tyria after the destruction of the Source. Either way, this makes it possible, even likely, that the Titans may reappear in some fashion in GW2.

My issue with this is that you're basically saying "we can't tell shit" and can say that all theories are pointless because sense doesn't need to exist. Of course, a fantasy world where sense and logic doesn't exist leads to a poor story and lore...

One could think that for the Vizunah Square NPCs, but if you re-watch the Minister Cho's Estate cinematic, Togo turns away as if he were dead. Also, about "we know that the Affliction is an effect of Shiro's presence" - NOT TRUE! As I linked, there are two quests which has the creation of Afflicted (or attempt of) without Shiro being around! In fact, one of those two quests is three years after Shiro's death.

Control over one's self and many others simultaneousness may easily be difficult.

I thought of this, however, what prevents me to think this is possible is the fact that the souls of the Chosen go into Soul Batteries - which only seem to go into the Door of Komalie. The closest evidence to support the souls of the Chosen are in the Jade Armors would be Leah Stone. Though which she was held in - one of the various soul batteries on the dock, or the Ether Seal guarding them - is hard to tell. I personally think it was the soul batteries.

That does make sense.

I thought it was said (or at least highly theorized) that the Titans were originally Dhuum's, not Abaddon's. I think it would be Aurus Trevess' dialogue which I think of:

The followers of Dhuum have gathered under the command of the Fury - since those with the Fury are "Guardians of Komalie", I doubt those are Dhuum's followers (and more likely to be the surroundings twisted by the Fury when it broke free), which just leaves Titans and a few Dryders/Dream Riders (when excluding the Margonites).

As for why they are in the Realm of Torment - The Foundry of Failed Creations was a prison (which got turned into a prison of the Forgotten *that is, the wardens became the prisoners*). As for when it became a prison, not sure.

The Foundry being the original prison makes since, due to the fact that all of the prisons, except the foundry of failed creations, were more or less just Margonite Cities.

All the quest dialogues point to the Margonites being the ones in control, and them torturing souls. I think these titans are "new" titans created by the Fury, those who Dhuum once created (if he did), were probably destroyed. If this is the case, then the "followers of Dhuum" would be the Tortureweb Dryders and Greater Dream Riders, and the Fury (of course).

Instead of being a "summoned spirit", I think the correct term for them would be "bounded energy", manifestations of the feelings and energy (with a specific purpose) of the spirits.

This "energy" would be taken from any type of spirits that posses it (destruction from necros, empowering from soldiers, union from monks, preservation from nature or monks, making it more like a type of special selected energy from a spirit) and stockpiled by a ritualist on a shell Spirit, the more stronger the ritualist is the more energy he can bound to it, not the other way.

This would make sense of why another spirit of the same kind would disrupt the other in the same area, perhaps it is just ingame mechanics but, and only but, if the spirits were a representation of that kind of energy summoning another spirit(with the same energy and purpose) would only move that energy to another place.

The quest does state that the are spirits unknown to a Norn, but it doesn't state in anyway that those are the same spirits summoned by the rits. I just interpret this as if those were different from the spirits they worship, just like a common angry human spirits (like the ones of Nolani Academy) being attracted by the Necromancer (perhaps /Ritualist according to the relationship of Xandra's family in his life) Tanto. As Xandra states in the same quest "Stories speak of Ritualists so powerful that spirits(common human spirits IMO) are drawn to them" as an argument I point out that you can see they all have profession skills.

It is hard to tell whether Spirits are summoned or created, descriptions of skills like "Boon of Creations" and "Consume Soul" point that the answer is perhaps both.

Nice reading BTW.

For the first: I'll have to pay close attention next time I do it, but Togo may have been mistaken or making an assumption on the basis that the minister looked like he'd just succumbed to an illness - not knowing what the result of that was.

For the second: Yes, we know that new Afflicted can be made without Shiro being presence - but I was talking about the Affliction, not the Afflicted. In those quests, the Affliction is within the Chalice of Corruption - but how did it get there? My theory is that the Am Fah managed to get hold of a supply of water tainted by Shiro.

Or it might be easy - especially if the others have sufficient programming that the controller only needs to give sufficient orders. (Remember that a construct isn't necessarily under the volition of the soul its powered by.)

Actually, I'd be inclined to think a better example is the guy on the docks of the Inner Council mission, who's worried about being put in one of 'the statues' - and that we see statues turning into Jades in Iron Mines. Come to think on it, though, this might be an indication that while it's the Chosen who are dangerous to them and who can power the Door, the Mursaat can make use of non-Chosen souls (since if the boatman was Chosen, he'd probably have been long dead).

How long did this take you to write? In that amount of time you could have improved your life skills considerably.

Seriously though! I don't know what to say!

As usual, a job well done!

As to not divert the other thread further...Can we differentiate life and afterlife? There are several basic factors of a specimen's existence to keep in mind, their corporeal form and their incorporeal form. The characteristics of these are, in fact, quite similar.

Corporeal Form:

• Capable of interacting with the physical plane without extensive effort.
• Contains biological systems i.e. circulatory/nervous/muscular/respiratory.
• Lives for a brief duration i.e. until old age or disease shuts down biological systems.

Incorporeal Form:

• Capable of interacting with physical plane with extensive effort.
• Lacks biological systems.
• Exists for a brief time i.e. until dissipation into the Mists, consumption by Demon, or other means.

The major distinguishing features are clear, the lack of biological systems and difficulty interacting with the physical plane. Both, however, are quite mortal. The concept of an "eternal" soul does not exist here, ergo, the soul is just as mortal as the physical body. Provided this observation, then, should we say that there is in fact a difference between life and afterlife? Or is it simply a continuation of life? You could certainly say that the afterlife is simply that, but I would rather we redefine the entire perspective on life in Tyria, since we know that it's a dualistic universe.

I would say death does not occur until the soul is completely terminated, either by being consumed by a Demon and digested, or dissipation into the Mists. I suggest this due to the nature of the personality being preserved after death. In a sense, brain death nor the halting of a pulse can be considered death due to this preservation of personality.

That is, however, only if we define life as existent through the personality. Nevertheless, since this is the main carryover trait in the loss of the physical body, it seems only appropriate to say so. Dividing life up into "mortal life", "ghostly life", and "afterworld life" simply seems inappropriate when we take into account the mortality of the soul and body. The body's halting of operation means nothing, as life persists in the incorporeal form, therefore it is consistent, and indivisible. The only division would exist in the transitional phase to the incorporeal form, as noted by some souls in the Underworld in remembering only a flashing of light and then appearing there.

There is an unfortunate fault with this redefinition, though, and that is that some would suggest personality is closely in tune with the memory, and that saying the persistence of personality defines a specimen's life is improper given the souls in the Domain of Pain. My argument against this though would be that those souls drained do in fact lose their life and their form when they are completely void of it all, which is suggested by the quests Faded Memory and A Fleshy Operation. E.g.

Given this, would it not seem to make more sense to redefine life as the persistence of personality? There are exclusions to this, of course, such as cases of memory loss or other such matters that would alter the personality of an individual and would not be death, but then it would simply shift to that new personality's existence being maintained.

Edit: Although, if we would rather an artistic pun, we could say the persistence of memory.

Unless the idea of death and life in GW copies from the Japanese anime "Bleach" - where when a human dies he becomes a spirit and when his spirit dies he becomes a human - I do believe we can put a difference between life and afterlife.

Why? Because after the afterlife, your current idea of self gone for good (unless you mimic Shiro, who is a special case by all we see and know).

Ever since Dhuum finally appearing, it has become a constant belief in the forum that there are two deaths: Death of the body, and death of the soul. The afterlife, or life of the spirit, is just an incorporeal version of life - this has never been denied (and in fact something I've always stating, though never point blank) - but there should be a separation of defining life.

Why? Because life in a corporeal body is not the same as life as a spirit. The spirit lives far longer, and even when devoured can last over 200 years as energy. For all we know, there is no aging by death, thus spirits are as immortal as the gods themselves. This is far different than living in a corporeal body, where you age and your life is far more fragile.

What I call the mortal life is far more fragile than the spiritual life - whether in the mortal plane or the afterlife (which is basically a retirement home for spirits if you think about it).

But the reason why I split the three isn't so much because they are three different lives - no, instead it is because life is vastly different in each stage and the only reason for the second (or Ghostly Life) stage is for the sake of showing that a spirit can live, but by our knowledge not be killed, in what is normally a world for corporeal beings.

Life can be said to be one, but death is still the life of the spirit - whether one speaks for the world of Tyria, or a dualist's perception of reality. Why bother redefining what is defined and has been defined for hundreds of years? Living as a spirit without a body is called death. The death of the spirit - unless reincarnation takes place (which is impossible to know at the moment) - is called non-existence. There is no need to get more complicated than this, and my three stages is just to separate the three (mainly a spirit in the "mortal realm" and a spirit in the "spirit realm") in an understandable manner.

I wouldn't really call this extensive effort, as spirits who don't even know they are dead constantly interact with the physical plane as if they were living (in the sense of having a corporeal body).

That flash has a name. Every one of those spirits which mention the flash are spirits which died in the Searing.

However, the essence mentioned is in fact just the essence of memory, not the spirits themselves. The spirits, by every showing, are left in tact and unharmed - with the exception of amnesia. The first spirit is devoid of all memory, yet it still exists. All it knows is that it cannot remember a thing. The personality is still there, but not what made the personality - and in essence, perhaps a different personality and we cannot tell the difference due to our lack of knowing both the amnesic spirit and the spirit which remembers his past.

So either your idea cannot be correct, as memories are lost yet the spirits live unharmed, or lack of memories doesn't affect the personality and thus that quest - and in fact everything - does not help your hypothesis.

All the quest chain proves is that the essence of memory (or perhaps the mind as a whole) is not the same as the spirit and can be separated. Which could very much lead not to a dualistic reality in the lore, but a "Triplistic" (I have no clue what a three, instead of two, way ideal would be called).

...How would that make a difference? That process is just a rigged reincarnation where you come back as a human when you die as a spirit.

Which is why I'm getting at death not being death but just another stage of life, and the actual death occurring after the afterlife when the idea of the self is gone.

But it is extremely similar. Both forms are mortal, and both are fragile, the soul perhaps more so as they can forced into a variety of contraptions as a power source, including the..Biological, systems of demons.

Yet it isn't that different, really. I know you're not suggesting it as three different lives, but three stages of life, but I think this is unnecessary. As to Ghostly Life, it would seem that they can be killed, according to the dialogue of Palawa Joko's forces in certain quests. At least, in a sense, as the demons consume them, I can't recall the particular case where we rescue a soul from the insides of a demon that has been there for several centuries, but it may depend on the plane with which the spirit resides. If it's on Tyria, the process of soul digestion may be different, and quicker, whereas in the Mists it's slower. That depends entirely on where we save the soul though.

Life has never been properly defined in our Universe due to the many different religions, as far as I'm concerned. See, I personally view death as when the brain shuts down, and that is in fact the legal definition in the United States. When that happens, the person is no longer existent, the mind has left the building, so to speak. However, in Tyria, when the body dies, life goes on as usual, just in a slightly less corporeal form. What I'm suggesting is a simplification, not a complication as I see it, but your divisions are an unnecessary complication from my current perspective.

I don't see a large enough difference between the soul's existence on the physical plane or in the Mists (afterlife) to necessitate the divisions. Souls in the Mists are harnessed for energy just as they are in Tyria, they exist for long lengths of time in both realms, both, provided the incentive, seem capable of interacting with the physical plane.

The only reason for the soul's lengthy existence, I would say, is because the soul is not exposed to the elements as the body is, and since the soul cannot, as far as we can tell, be affected by the elements, its degeneration is a much slower process than the body, but I suspect it does occur, at an unnoticeable rate.

Every time I talk about this, I'm basing my arguments on what is provided by the Manuscripts, and keep in mind the lines in Odran's Folly about the spirits. It's clearly been changed in-game, but it's still there.

Which I'm well aware of, perhaps I phrased that area poorly. What I was trying to illustrate was the point that the only division in the transition to an incorporeal form was that of a bit of a gap in memory from death to the new form.

I'm not being stubborn on this point, but that's not how I understood it. The spirit we encounter has not lost all memory, he still remembers what the area is called, and we cannot say with any certainty whether his fellows have been completely stripped of their memories, but I suspect they haven't. You're a .dat diver, check out the description of the Leech Tunnels, it seems to be the same one found on the wiki, which suggests that once they are completely drained, they become completely unrefined spirits. Most likely those are the type used in the creation of Titans in the Foundry of Failed Creations, as it's easier to shape an unrefined spirit and its mind into what you desire.

Where you see the essence of memory, I see the essence of the soul, basically, which seems to me their memory, which affects their personality, so it kills two birds with one stone.

I'm not proposing a hypothesis here, what I'm suggesting is a change in perspective on life due to the dualistic nature of Tyria's universe (or multiverse).

First of all, great job on the post. Very interesting things.

Anyhoo, my comment is about Vizier Khilbron, and his connections to Abaddon and Zhaitan.

From what I understand you are suggesting, is that Khilbron was corrupted by Abaddon before his transformation into a lich, and that Khilbron's Lich form was affected by Zhaitan's proximity. Now onto my point:

We understand that it takes quite a lot of magic to turn someone into a lich, and obviously it would take a lot of magical energy to level an entire city, so I find it hard to believe that all this was done by reading a scroll. (Though it does remind me of "The Magician's Nephew) Now we know the dragons "Bleed Magic" so could Khilbron have tapped into Zhaitans power? And if Abaddon was corrupting him at the time, was Abaddon aware of this?

Then again if we assume Abaddon is aware of the Dragons, which we can easily do so since he was a god, this brings up a few oddities. If Abaddon knew about the Dragons, why did none of his plans involve them at all? Though they were all the way in Tyria, and his main force was in Elona, it seems wierd that he didn't do anything about them. Of course this could all be because at the time of Nightfall, the writers hadn't thought of the Dragons, but nevertheless.

Which makes me wonder if there is a connection with Pawala Joko and the "Desert Dragon"

Do we actually know this point is true? It's a common hypothesis, yes, but I'm not sure we've ever had conclusive evidence that anything apart from Dhuum can permanently destroy a spirit (evidence so far suggests that demons can keep the soul intact for long periods of time - possibly even an indefinite period of time, more like a solar battery that's recharged than a fuel supply that is gone after its burned). Certainly, while I know it's a common theory that souls do dissipate back into the Mists over time, there's no evidence that spirits can't, like Tolkein's elves, live indefinitely until and unless it falls victim to some mishap.

That's a good point..I'm not aware of anything off the top of my head that provides concrete evidence for it, except, of course, the Lich and Shiro scenarios, which I seem to recall being the trigger to the line of thought that led to the hypothesis of soul dissipation. Hm.

Wouldn't the Afflicted Soul Explosion suggest that the soul is a sort of energy, as in an explosion it simply undergoes a change into heat and sound, which is in itself an expression of energy? As such it wouldn't be completely gone, but it would have to shift to something, in that case what I already said, so..It still seems to me that the energy of Shiro and the Lich's souls would have to do something. Eve even mentions feeling the amount of energy from the Lich's death, so his final death should release some amount of energy..

Yes, you're right, there's still no concrete evidence, but it seems to me that it would be implied. It might even be said that the transition to the incorporeal form is the remaining energy of the body shifting into a new form, which is a completely tangential thought.

The whole concept of reincarnation is the difference. Though that is pretty much the simplest way to describe the act of reincarnation, thus making life eternal.

I've already responded to this in my previous post, which, in short, is basically "death has always been used to describe what happens after the life in a corporeal body, it has always been a second life (in dualist terms), so why bother renaming it."

Which, how I see it, all views on life can come down to three kinds of methods: Life as a Mortal then nothing (no afterlife); life as a mortal then as a spirit (some afterlife); reincarnation.

The first kind is just life in a body then death which is the same as non-existence. The second kind is life in a body then death which is life as a soul. The third kind is life in a body then another life in a body.

As Tyria matches the second view of life, death would just be another name for living as a spirit.

It is only similar in concept of how they live and what their limitations are. Souls are a more free, and more durable, version of the body - souls are made of one kind of state of materials (forgot the term for it - such as solids, gases, liquids, and the two that are in between solid/liquid and gas/liquid - souls are the inbetween of solid and liquid, while bodies are all three of the primary states) - and souls are energy in of themselves.

That seems like a mighty fine difference if you look more at the specifics and less at the generals.

The case where two souls are freed after 200 years imprisonment. And as I stated in my first post, there are 2 ways to "kill" a spirit (according to observation and dialogues): Consumption (or simply draining the energy that makes the spirit) and killing one in the "spirit realm" (any of the afterlives) - note: killing a spirit in the "mortal realm" (such as Tyria) would only send it to the afterlife, according to some dialogues.

So Joko's forces saying that the demons are killing them (which is only implied, I believe, by things such as "demons are roaming the Desolation, and with an army of undead, that is not good" or something of the sort) is not that surprising as they would be devouring the soul, or killing the undead and the spirit of the undead are not intended in the dialogues.

My divisions were just to show what happens with what was believed to be death. The only real death is "death in the third stage" - the act which is called death in the first or second stages is not death. How would you explain this without the three stages? How would you keep the confusion to a minimum if you do not describe how one can life before you describe how one can have a "false death" (so to speak) before having a real death?

My three stages, to one as smart and knowledgeable in lore as you, may seem unnecessary, but to those not knowledgeable or who get confused on my wording easily, the stages may be necessary.

The real difference is the reason why the spirits are in the mortal realm and what happens to them when they die. To prevent misunderstanding and for simplification of the topic to readers, I've thought it was best to have them separate. Instead of saying "this is what happens, except in this case and that case" I said "These are the cases, and this is what happens in the first case, this is what happens in the second case, and this is what happens in the third case."

Might be "unnecessary" for some, and it might be "longer" but it is easier to understand. And with how often I am misunderstood - intentional or not - it is always best to keep things as simple as possible, even by the sacrifice of length.

Perhaps this is why people don't like your research as much as people like mine - or at least in the past.

Another reason is the lack of known aging, unless there is aging, and if there is. then it would most likely be the same as energy of the soul being spent, which in reality, whenever they move they are making themselves "age," thus the more movement (which would include fighting), the faster they'd die naturally.

Ah, you mean the spirit's "shadow form" - what I believe to be the "formless spirits" (as I think I mentioned in the OP, if not then it is in my fourth revision), a form of spirit that is able to go through anything. However, the case of the manuscripts is a special case - and I know how you love to separate special cases from the norm. The spirits there have not interacted with corporeal things for ages, thus they have forgotten how. However, those we meet on a regular basis - for instance those in Tyria - have been constantly been interacting with corporeal beings, and some don't even know of their own death.

Though this is not always the case, as shown in Factions cinematics constantly - they meet with the Envoys and as shown by Shiro in the Gate of Madness, their memory remains intact.

This is where you are incorrect. That line is said after the spirit regains all of his memory.

I am not a .dat diver (I just use the information divers give, which if I knew how to translate the coding, I'd find landmarks and descriptions of Prophecies, Factions, and Eye of the North locations). Also, that description, proven by this thread is not from the .dat. That description is a fan-made one based on the quests, thus hold no lore value (and an interesting note: When you need it, you use the .dat as a backup, but when you don't need it for your own theories, you discredit the theories because they use the .dat! Hmmm....)

Though your thoughts seem to be incomplete and even agreeing with mine in some parts where they are complete, or not understanding why I have formatted the research as I have.

Based on [url=http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Escape_from_the_Torment#Dialogue]the dialogue here[/ur] and here, along with this dialogue, and the dialogue from here, it is safe to assume Khilbron was corrupted prior to the Cataclysm. Everything points to him reading a scroll - and who knows how much magic could be contained in a scroll? Especially magic from before the bloodstones - the scroll (who said the scroll was even parchment?) would of been acting like a time capsule for the magic.

Just because Abaddon is a god, does not mean he knew of the dragons. In fact, based on him causing so much ruckus without killing the dragons or by point blank trying to wake them, one can easily assume he knows nothing of them, or he thinks nothing would wake them.

Unlikely, as the desert dragon is Kralkatorrik from the Charr Homelands, where would the connection be.

That doesn't make life eternal unless the mind or personality remains intact throughout the entire process, which is the basis for my argument.

The explanation for each was rather unnecessary. My main argument is that life in a body and life in a soul is indistinguishable. If it was not, we wouldn't have souls in the Forgotten Vale:

The distinguishing feature, then, I would say, is simply the perception of a transition into the incorporeal form. Otherwise a being that made the transition could simply go on as usual, as if they were still within their body, and if Grenth and the Underworld didn't exist, on the physical plane, as many others do.

Plasma is the state you're looking for. Anatomically, though, they are much the same, at least, on the exterior. If they even have an interior is hard to say, but their physiological features suggest they haven't the ordinary viscera, they don't seem to need food or water or any of the other bits of sustenance we do. In this regard there is a massive difference in particulars, but that's to be expected, however, they are still very alive. They're conscious, they're coherent, and their personality is intact.

Can't expect all bits of your life to be the same, now can you? I wouldn't expect to be the same if I lost the use of a body part, after all, and I'm still wary of car doors after just a minor scrape with one.

Then I'd say you need to add another method, and that's by draining the souls of who they are, of their memories and personality. They're not technically gone, but the person certain as hell is. As to the two souls..That's an interesting case altogether, it may be possible that family ties to one another bind each other to the physical plane. Even though he didn't know it, his wife's remaining there may have prevented his complete digestion..Or perhaps the Scarabs simply aren't adapted to soul consumption.

I just looked over every quest in the Desolation, except for She Hungers, and I'm not even finding the dialogue where one of Joko's men mentioned that, so I can't say for certain.

Simple: No one dies in Tyria. When biological functioning of the body ceases something occurs (perhaps remnant energy coalescing and abandoning the body to become the incorporeal form) in which life is maintained in an alternate form.

It's essentially the same principle as energy being incapable of destruction. It simply changes form. Except, of course, that life does eventually cease, when the mind and personality is destroyed which seem to be the only maintainers of the incorporeal form as we see it.

I fail to see how my perspective on the matter would make it at all more difficult to comprehend. If it's all just life, then it's obvious that there would be business tend to in certain cases and none in others.

I get the audience I'm aiming at, and that's all that matters to me. You aim towards a more general audience, which is probably what gets you so much praise and insult.

Aging is nothing more than exposure to the elements, but in this case, as they seem to be energy, then yes, their form of aging probably is activity expending energy.

I'd be wary of calling them formless, given those we see in Hell's Precipice and over the cauldron in Lion's Arch on Halloween. As I said though, it has been changed in-game.

Let's also keep in mind that the Envoys weren't apparently thought of during Prophecies, though, as all of the souls we encounter in the Underworld are, as we're both aware, from Prophecies and display a gap in memory.

No, this is where you're incorrect, or misunderstanding, to say the least. The quotes in my original post which spurred this discussion are from the beginning of the respective quests. The first quote is from the beginning of A Faded Memory, and he recalls the name of the Leech Tunnels. The second quote, you're correct, is after he regains all his memories, but prior to that, he still remembered the location's name.

Ah, a misunderstanding on my point, for some reason I want to consistently think you are.

As I recall, the majority of those theories are also based on Arachnia.

Also, you need to be more thorough, it was in a post later in the thread. See this. As to my usage of it, the Leech Tunnels are not only mentioned in-game in dialogue, but their description by Jutu is in line with that found in the .dat, thus not only is it real by its mention in-game, but we are provided with more detail by the area description.

There is no mention of Arachnia in-game, and I wouldn't point that out on its own except that I can't currently recall any other cases you may have in mind.

I didn't start the discussion arguing against any of your major points to begin with, but simply offering a different perspective on the matter, as I continue to emphasize.

Though your argument is less of "what is life" and more of "what is self" - is the idea of being who one is, or what one is (that is, their body, or their mind).

And honestly, not entirely relevant - that is, in continuing the argument - as your argument is in fact not opposing my stance.

A contradiction is made about the souls which reside in the Forgotten Vale:

These souls are not souls which do not know they are dead, they are souls who are serving Grenth. As for your statement of souls existing on the physical plane if they knew of their death - this is clearly quite the opposite. Souls which do not realize they are dead are all around the Desolation, the first description of the Orrian undead is the same of them not realizing they are dead. There are also souls which realize they are dead in Tyria, and they realize they are dead in the afterlife (Underworld, Fissure of Woe, Hall of Heroes, and Realm of Torment).

Thus, the perception argument fails, as both perceptions exist on both sides.

We've gone through this. Plasma is a state between gas and liquid. Draxynnic corrected you on this.

Going back to the first response: That isn't so much one's state of life as it is one's being. You're saying someone who is brain dead (or in a vegetable state) is dead, when their body and possibly even consciousness, thus their self, is still working and living.

So you're arguing semantics here.

After extensive searching, as I thought it was a primary quest and stated in the Bone Palace:

The thing is: While I understand what you mean here, it still isn't a clear picture of what you mean to me. Not to bloat, but I've always been an "above average" person, so would the mentally average person be able to understand what you mean? On the other hand, as shown moreso in the previous two versions of this research, how I worded my theory and research was understood and in fact interesting to read.

That is my goal, not shortest way to put it.

It isn't your perspective, but how you're trying to reword it. You give it point blank where I gave examples.

Besides, it isn't "all just life" - it is life in a form that is called, by everyone except you even in reality's equivalent, death.

So I ask the question, again, which you constantly ignore: Why rename something which has a name?

I'd rather aim to the general audience and get more people interested in lore than push people away from the interest of lore by making things more complicated to understand.

Not quite, aging is more than exposure to the elements. What you speak of is more of erosion. Does the physical appearance of a spirit go from a kid to a man? No. That is aging. A spirit will not have 4 legs in the morning, 2 legs in the afternoon, and 3 legs in the evening. Bodies will.

Formless is just a nickname, a "lack of a better term" use. But those seem to fit the idea of the "spirit's shadow form" from the Odran's Folly in the manuscripts better than any other instance, and those models are not just used during Halloween (in far more than the one cauldron) and the Door of Komalie. There is also the River of Souls and a couple circles of them in the Foundry of Failed Creation. Just for reference sake.

Though there are still the spirits we speak to in Ascalon, Sanctum Cay's bonus, Abaddon's Mouth's bonus, and throughout the Crystal Desert.

Hmmm, not quite Leon. He only remembers running around. He heard the place being called the Leech Tunnels - after his memory loss. The moment he lost his memory, he lost all of his memory.

So yes, I was mistaken, but the spirit still didn't remember anything, else he would have said "I recall that this place is..." or something of the like instead.

Not correct, as only one theory is on Arachnia. And you disagree with other statements that I have made based off of the .dat (though I'm surprised you didn't comment on the Abaddon thing yet!)

Thought I looked through it all. Meh.

Though usually different perspective means a different idea on the case (thus something that wouldn't be agreeing fully). In which case, you're only redefining death, which I honestly see no point in doing. Why create a new term and new definition for an existing term when people are used to the old definition of said existing term? It only makes things more complicated, as I continue to emphasize.

Not entirely. The self is clear cut in my mind, and that is that it is the mind and personality of an individual.

I would think it quite clear that the Forgotten Vale serves a dual purpose, for those souls and the souls already mentioned.

Do note that I said if Grenth and the Underworld didn't exist they would reside there. Since they do, they exist on both. It wasn't intended as an either/or argument, although that wasn't clear. What I was attempting to point out is that without a perception of having died, they proceed as if they are still alive, therefore death is merely a perceived occurrence, when it is not perceived, life simply continues as if it never happened.

I didn't read that closely enough, a fault on my part.

When the brain ceases function, a person is dead in our world. Tyria is dualistic, when a person is brain dead, they keep on living even if their body doesn't. The mind and personality are on an entirely different level in Tyria, separate from the brain, this is proven by the existence of souls.

It doesn't matter if the body is still alive in our world, there are cases where the brain is inoperable, but the body is quite fine, at least so long as it is kept running via life support systems. Beating heart cadavers they're called. A person in a vegetative state is difficult to say, and it would be inappropriate to generally cover it given the differences in each case, but if consciousness is still present, I'd say they're alive. Nevertheless, Tyria's a different sort of universe, so this line of argument is irrelevant. Once the body ceases operation, life persists in the form of a soul.

Ah, thanks, I thought it may have been in that quest, but I was glancing over many different ones.

As long as you don't mention death, and say once the body stops functioning..You may be able to avoid confusion. It's fascinating, really, as when you mention death or a different opposing subject to get to another point, it lingers in their thoughts, and they find it difficult to understand when you get to your point or you say that they're still alive after that, just in a new form.

Because it's not the same, and it's not the same universe. Let's put it this way, if your body stopped functioning, and you made the transition to an incorporeal form, would you say you were dead? Even though you're still conscious and aware and capable of thinking about it, would you say you're dead? If there had never been an established identification of death, I would say an entire civilization could die and under those circumstances, they wouldn't think themselves dead.

What I find extremely strange is that in universes, such as Tyria's, where souls exist, they still have a perception of death. I can't for the existence of me see why, especially if one considers life to be conscious activity.

Perhaps I should put a disclaimer on my more complex threads then.

Not precisely what I was aiming at. The body has to continually produce new cells through mitosis, but, telomeres at the end of the chromosomes slowly degrade during every division, meaning eventually, they will be gone, and cell division will cease. This more or less produces the end result of aging. Cells wouldn't need to continually divide if we weren't alive and exposed to the elements, as such, yes, it is more than just exposure to the elements, but that is an essential aspect of it. The point you're making is pointless when it comes to souls, as they haven't cells, as far as we know. So while they won't age in the sense we're familiar with, I do suspect they would degrade over time.

Which still makes me wonder if perhaps, the Envoys are exclusive to Cantha. There is a noticeable dearth of souls there, which you would think there would be more considering the nature of the continent. The starving in the city, the Jade Wind killing so many people suddenly..It's quite curious.

Now that's what I was expecting you to latch onto. Something must have remained though..I think, that kept him from becoming another of the formless spirits, as you call them. Think about it, if we trash this as a possibility for how they turn into those, we're simply left with the vague "torture" description. I'd think you'd be all for this.

Well I certainly can't recall them at the moment, I can say that much, but I'm sure there's some valid reason for it beyond cherry picking the .dat in my favor, which I do try to avoid. (I can't even recall the majority of the information extracted from it, to be quite honest, and didn't realize the Leech Tunnels description on the wiki was from it until I looked into it further.)

Because I'm not creating a new term and new definition? I'm simply stretching an existing term and its definition beyond the normal scope as I see it appropriate given the difference in the Universe.

However, to others, this is not the case. I was speaking from a general idea and bringing up the different views. Now you're showing that you're trying to force your philosophical beliefs on others by telling them your views of this topic.

However, another descrepency is that the Icy Wastes is the home of Grenth's servants. Then again, one could argue that the whole Underworld is the realm for those who wish to follow Grenth.

If Grenth and the Underworld (untrue, instead the afterlife as a whole) didn't exist, they'd do just as they do now: Exist. There is no difference on this, they just wouldn't have their version of a retirement home. But your argument is still flawed as a lack of realization does not mean that something did not occur. For instance, take the case of a baby and an adult playing "peek-a-boo" with the baby by hiding his or her face behind their hands. The baby doesn't realize that the adult is still there, but that doesn't mean the adult is not there. If your point were to be true, then it would require all perceptions of the being, not just one's own perception. Even without believing they are dead, ghosts will do things which they cannot while living. For instance, the curator from rin will walk on the sulfurous wastes, or will continue on without water, food, or sleep (assuming those are not necessary for a spirit). Or the spirits Gwen helps out in The Flight North, they will repeat the events, yet they have no clue of their own death. Constantly they re enact their failure which led to the Charr being able to advance and eventually cause the Searing.

Just because a spirit doesn't perceive his own death doesn't mean he'll live as if he was alive. He'll act similarly, yes, but not the same, and that by far doesn't mean he is "alive."

Once more you're forcing your philosophical view of reality upon us. You speak as if reality isn't dualistic - can you know for sure? No. But the death of the brain does mean death, yes (even in the so called brain-dead state, the brain is active, just unable to move move the body). But the death of the personality is not always the same as the death of the brain.

But that is beside the point, though the way your forcing your view isn't the reference to reality, but the fact that if there is a soul, that death is not just death of the body, when it really is.

Not really, and this shouldn't be an issue with you either, due to your location. The concept of the soul is a common and known idea - even to those who are materialistic in their belief of life (that is, don't believe in the soul, like you implied for yourself and slipped in above). Saying someone dies and knowing that souls exist in GW would, even to materialists, show that death means passing on, or losing one's body to be just a soul. I do not see how this can be confusing since it is such a wide known and seen concept.

So because it is another universe, we should redefine anything we see fit? Even though it is used in game as the same meaning? Okay, immortality does not mean unkillable, but instead has no separation from mortality. A tree is not a tree, it is a dog, which is in fact a cat, that is a catapillar.

Using the argument that it is another universe so death is not the same (which is not true, as I've tried to point out, but since you're clearly a materialist I guess my words would fall on deaf ears) as reality's death and thus allows a redefining the word is flawed greatly. If my body stopped functioning and I was a spirit, as long as I knew I was a spirit, I would say I was dead. I would be dead because death is the cease of a functioning body, not a functioning soul.

In essence, what you yourself define death in reality is still death in Tyria. Why? Because the body ceases function. Yes, you still perceive yourself as a being, but you are still dead. You are still just a soul.

And you know they don't have cells, how? If they are made out of a material, whether it is gas, liquid, solid, plasma, or whatever a semi-gas/semi-liquid (ectoplasm? ) would be called, they would still have cells.

Though if that is why they are exclusive to Cantha... what about the constant Guild Wars and the Scarab Plague? Or Joko's invasion? The Searing and the Cataclysm even, and the Charr/Human war. All those would produce equal, or more, souls in short times. So then there would be a need of Tyrian and Elonian Envoys.

I don't call your "refined" spirits the same as the "formless" spirits. These are two different subjects, to be honest. And surely, the presence of Titans imply that a "blank slate" is needed, though that could just be that the "essence of memory" is a portion of the soul being devoured for energy. And after all, the place is near the River of Souls, perfect feeding ground. Why have your food supply turned into more mouths to feed?

But you are changing the definition! Not expanding it. You're changing it from the cease of body functionality to the lack of existence on a whole scale (body, soul, and mind).

Let's lay out the definitions that relate to our discussion, shall we?

In reality:
Life=A corresponding state, existence, or principle of existence conceived of as belonging to the soul
Death=Also called spiritual death. loss or absence of spiritual life.

Now, I was unaware of that definition in regards to life, but that is essentially what I'm trying to get across here. The soul is not yet dead in Tyria, and as such, still qualifies as alive.

..What else is the self? The body and soul together? And simply by telling them my views, I am not forcing them on others, however, by attempting to suggest that life only exists as long as the mind exists otherwise the self ceases to exist and that is death, then am I forcing them on others. Simply telling someone your views is not forcing anything.

What I was intending to mean was to the self. A lack of realization on the self's part means that as far as they're aware, nothing happened, while something may in fact have happened, until they're told, it may as well not have. Although technically I'd still say that the transition they call death is nonexistent, even if it does occur, it's not as if they're really dying.

While true, that does not display life, the very act of doing anything and having conscious activity should be a clear sign of life as far as I'm concerned.

How about I go and murder a few people in a hospital, run them through some scans, and tell you if there's any evidence of mental activity after death? That's not the point though, there have been quite a few experiments to test the existence of the soul, with each one failing to prove so. If our reality is dualistic, it certainly has a way of concealing it. And actually, unless I'm mistaken, as I looked into the definition of brain-dead to be a bit more certain, the brain is no longer functioning when it's classified as such.

And death of the personality isn't death of the brain, this is true, as the personality is in a state of constant change. One moment I may be discussing this side, the next I may not be due to an alteration in my perspective. I think we're a bit off on what we're trying to discuss here, though, are you going on about death in regards to the body? Of course the body dies, but the person does not. Therefore death cannot be pinned to both.

When someone dies in reality, we acknowledge the death of the body and person, for the most part. Although you do tend to get those who go to mediums and the like to try and maintain communication with them.

However, in Tyria, the person remains alive, would it make you feel better to say existent? Whatever the case, as far as I'm concerned, they're alive and well.

Actually, I was just referring to how to present my viewpoint without confusing people that aren't you, as you mentioned you being able to comprehend it, but what are the chances of others doing the same.

See this is where our main point of contention is. I think, or would like to think, the only reason brain death is considered death in the United States is due to the halting of conscious mental activity. Considering this, the fact that conscious mental activity does not cease after death in Tyria, it would not be appropriate to classify death of the body as death. That's all I'm really attempting to say here, for the most part.

Each culture has its own definition of death, anyway, so why should this be such a big deal? Some cultures view death as occurring when the heart stops functioning, others, like our own, when the brain stops functioning. This is despite the fact that the brain can continue functioning for a short amount of time after the heart stops functioning, and vice versa. So why do cultures define death differently, regardless of medical evidence? Because it's a difference in believing where the essence, the soul, the mind, whatever you prefer to call it, lies in the body.

Since we actually know that the soul does not lie in the body in Tyria, or at least does not appear to considering the separation after the body stops functioning, then it would necessitate a redefinition of death. This isn't simply a case of it being a different Universe, despite my reasoning earlier, this is something that would dramatically alter our own definition of death in reality were it found that souls existed. So, tell me then, why shouldn't we?

Well, like I said, as far as we know. Let's get some spiritual reproduction going on and then we'll have firm evidence they've also cells.

That's what I'm getting at, it's curious that there don't appear to be. You'd think they'd resurrect us or something when we stupidly dance in front of Abaddon and get killed by him, saying it's not our time or something of the sort.

Well then, what are they being drained for? To be placed in the River of Souls? To charge the Soulweir? Considering the Flesh Gluttons aren't a part of the main forces, I wouldn't say they're being kept to themselves to be entirely consumed.

We're thinking of a different term then. Where you're talking about death, I was talking about life. I'm extending life to being present beyond the body, whereas I was under the impression you were restricting it to the body, which it seemed you were.

Oh, and about me forcing my views on others, if I really was, I'd be arguing against the very existence of these souls, considering I don't personally believe in them in reality.

Funny how you only put the definitions which suite your need. And the definition for life that you gave is for eternal life, as it says right next to the definition on Dictionary.com

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/life
There are more, up to 25 to be exact, but those are for other uses of life, such as "life of the party."

Note that definitions 1 and 2 point to organism - which a soul clearly is not. And seeing how a soul is not eternal, 3 would not fit.

Like life, there are multiple unrelated definitions, so I cut them out. "the total and permanent cessation of all vital functions of an organism" - once more, not fitting your desired definition. These two definitions are also the most common.

"What else is the self" - some have and would say that it is the body, or just one memories and not the personality, or none of those and say that it is the soul which doesn't have a personality but is still different from others' souls (these explanations are coming from my memory of Philosophy class). And you are not forcing by telling, but forcing by saying "this is how it is in Tyria" when we cannot be sure that is the case. Yes, we know that there are souls, but we cannot say what the true self is. We cannot tell if memories and personalities are needed for a self, which would go to your Leech Tunnels argument, in that the act of taking memory doesn't kill the spirit, or the self.

Though if they are told then they will just deny it as "denial and disorientation are common upon the newly dead." Of course, we don't know what that transition is, or even if they are fully aware of the act. The soul leaving the body might be an act caused by the Id of the mind thus being almost always automatic and the soul doesn't have to be aware of the transition of the soul leaving the body (maybe staying in the body suffocates the soul? We don't know what would happen if the soul didn't leave the body truth be told).

The closest case we have a this "transition" is the soul jumping out of the body, though the jumping out part uses a pop up animation and thus may not be entirely accurate to how it would look.

Unless you ignore the eternal life idea which you posted, which in fact goes against the case of the souls as a soul is not eternal. And if you drop that definition, all you have left is what separates the moving organic from the inorganic and non-moving organic.

Or we, being corporeal, have no method yet of how to find the incorporeal.

Except in the case of eternal life, which is not the case here, death is the death of the organic body. So while the soul lives on, it is still called death. A tricky and confusing topic: One can still exist in death, and I do not mean being an undead.

It is easier to just use terms people are familiar with, instead of using unusual, incorrect, or brand new terms.

Actually, I think, though it may not be the case, that brain death is considered death because the person cannot act for themselves. They may be able to think, their soul - if such exists in reality - may be in their body, or it might not be and they are unable to think. It is death because we cannot know what the true case is, so instead of having a copy of the abortion argument, a set line was put. Meaning the person might not actually be dead, but we know the person cannot be respond, thus it would become a case of mercy killing if they were deemed alive - to prevent such, call them dead.

In other words, they are called dead to avoid massive debates and arguments, I would think. Which kind of puts your analogy out the window.

Er... they souls are in the bodies, this is rather clear. They just separate, that doesn't mean that they are always 2 loosely connected or completely unconnected things.

Though in the storyline, our characters don't die, and the Envoys are not in the realms of the gods/rift or where ever you prefer to consider the Realm of Torment until we get confirmation.

So the reason why we don't see them is because we're not dead, and every person who dies in the storyline, aside from the enemies, after our Ascension for Prophecies dies elsewhere, same in fact goes for Nightfall (even though, lore wise, there is no Ascension there).

I would assume the spirits came from the River of Souls - perhaps fleeing from being devoured or stored in the abyss which the River is supposedly said to lead (according to the .dat). Assuming this, the spirits would have gone where they were not meant to go: The Leech Tunnels. Thus, their run in with the Flesh Gluttons was unintended.

Not entirely, I am just keeping with the idea of the body being life and the soul being death. It is still existence - or what you call life - but it isn't the common idea of life. I am trying to keep the difference between life and death to be as similar to reality as possible to prevent confusion, where if I were to call being a soul life, well, everyone in Tyria would scream foul.

But that would be clearly outside of the lore. What I meant was that your forcing a portion of your view (for example, the self) while keeping to what is definite of the lore.

I put the definitions which I viewed as being relevant, like I said. I am not entirely concerned with the body, which the other definitions relate to. Also, the italicized bits next to the definitions are examples to help explain the usage of the word with that definition in a particular scenario. The humor then lies on you for disregarding my initial statement prior to the provision of those definitions.

Not desired because they're, again, irrelevant to what I view us discussing, and that is, and was, the soul.

In the sense that the self is managed by memories and a personality stored or managed by the brain, I would say that the body then is in fact the self, to an extent. Saying that the soul lacks a personality makes it pointless fluff to me then, as I always viewed it as quite synonymous with the mind, which was, as I saw it, in our Universe, existing in the brain. That's perhaps my main fault, assuming that the self lies in the soul as the soul=mind and the mind itself is the self. That strikes me as common sense, so I'm foolish in that regard. I think it would make sense now then, why I would say that in Tyria the self lies in the soul.

The transition always struck me as being quick, like being knocked unconscious and then reawakening to find yourself dragged to a new location, but we can't be certain, that's true. As to what happens if the soul doesn't leave the body, according to the Manuscripts, it would rot with the body, but that's another element that seems to have been altered.

If you read the definition, disregarding the example of its usage, it seemed to me suggestive of life being a quality associated only with the soul. As you also looked there, you'll be aware of the absurd definition beneath related to "Christian Science" suggesting death doesn't even occur. That aside, even if I don't drop it, the definition was getting at what I've been trying to say, in a way, that life in regards to the individual is a quality tied to the soul and not merely the body.

Although, if I didn't know any better, I'd say we're quite good at finding the electromagnetic spectrum which is almost a "ghostly" affair, seeing into other wavelengths of existence, if you will.

I blame souls for this entire discussion. If the soul didn't exist, I wouldn't even be discussing this, but since they do, it seems necessary. If we were discussing the nature of death in reality, I'd be all for that usage of death, but given the spiritual attributes of death in both, one literally, one likely not, it seems even more so. As long as mental activity occurs, they're alive to me, and seeing that it does after death, means they're still alive, even if their body is no longer functioning. Which I've been continually repeating these past few posts.

Well, as I said though, from the definition I read, it's the complete halt of brain functions. Due to this, and an inability to read thoughts after death, the lack of brain activity is taken as a halting not only of a biological function but of all conscious activity permanently.

What I was aiming at is that the souls aren't in a particular organ of the body, like many try to tie it to in reality. In the cases mentioned, those cultures believed the soul exists in the heart.

We do die though, not storywise, but we do. I suppose that's the difference you're illustrating, but it's a pretty weak excuse not to make Envoys present in the other continents. Although it would get annoying after awhile, having to deal with them each time you died in a mission.

I always viewed those in the River of Souls as being mostly unrefined, due to their appearance, despite being pulled out by the Dryders and tortured in the Gate of Pain mission retaining their form. So I saw it the opposite way, going from the Leech Tunnels to the River of Souls.

Irony is fun, isn't it?

The first isn't ironic, but the latter two are, as they are souls, and you still call those stages life. So, either your views have changed since writing that, or I've made that fault clear to you.

Considering that no part of the game, that I'm aware of, has touched on the self, except perhaps Razah, it's a tad difficult not to impress some view of the self into this sort of discussion.

Though in reality all views of the soul points to it being eternal, as a mortal soul has, as far as I know at least, only existed in fiction and never in faith, thus the definition, not relating to works of fiction but instead faith and opinion of the soul, would be speaking of an eternal soul even if just the word soul were used.

"Lets lay out the definitions related to our discussion" - how did I disregard this? You pointed out 2 definitions, one per term, I pointed out others, more frequently used, definitions which I have been using.

The soul is the original topic, but we've delved into the difference between life and death and definition of the terms. Thus it is relevant. Albeit, the point for this particular discussion is without one.

This is the view of every philosophical work I've read, that is, that the soul and the mind are one in the same. Personally, I disagree, as the soul seems to me more to be one's life force, while the mind is one's personality. That is, a soul is what makes us function, the mind is what separates us from others, and the body is the catalyst for the two.

And since a spirit can exist without memories, which is the base foundations for a personality (change the memories, you change the personality), it would seem that Tyria acts in a similar manner to my personal belief.

The Manuscripts clearly was altered there, as it says that either the spirit goes to the Hall of Heroes, or rots in the body. Seeing how we see spirits elsewhere, this cannot be so. However, it may be soul if a soul somehow managed to stay within a body. Which now makes me wonder how the undead's soul's states are - are they as withered as the bodies? Or are they unharmed due to the rotting of the bodies being stalled (presumably) with the undead?

And you just gave me a thought for editing my side project regarding my views of life.

You know, if death meant non-existence, then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you, however, since that isn't the case, I'd have to wholeheartedly disagree with you.

Of course, by the definition you pulled, there would be more kinds of death than spiritual death, hence "also called" at the beginning of your definition. So really, by that definition, we can say both cases is a case of death. Death of the body, and death of the spirit.

A simple misunderstanding.

If it isn't purposely done in a quest or a mission, then by most understanding, in the official lore, it wouldn't take place. And instead of having Envoys appear every time you die, whether in a mission or explorable, it would just be easier to set up the Resurrection Shrines with a maintaining personnel.

The direction in which the River of Souls goes is an interesting one. Within the domain of pain, it heads one way (away from the gate of pain), in the Nightfallen Jahai, the river again heads away from the gate of pain. Thus, the River of Souls goes to direction.

But my question for you, Leon, is why would the spirits who know nothing go to the River of Souls to go into the "abyss"? In fact, how would they know to go there? And what good to the demons would heading there do? Seeing how the dam and the Leech Tunnels is done so by the demons (supposedly on the tunnels, due to the Flesh Gluttons, that is), sending unrefined souls - if they are such - to the abyss would work against the demons, would it not?

At least, to me, this abyss sounds like a natural occurring place, perhaps one which destroys spirits to send the energy back to the Mists.

Also, they cannot be "refined spirits" as the idea just does not work with how widespread those models are. Would Thorn have mindless spirits working with him? Would the spirits released from the Soul Batteries (it's hard to spot, but in Abaddon's Mouth mission, when you destroy the final seals, if you see the soul battery, it explodes with 5 or so "refined spirits" or "formless spirits" coming out of it), clearly not all are such. I think this is just another model for spirits, their shadow form - if it has any lore behind it, and isn't just a way to create spirits which avoids the issue of the lacking z-axis and going through models.

In the op, I use the term life in the idea of existence. I was speaking of one usage of the word, and later another usage. Not that ironic if you put thought behind it.

Of course, I never did deny that existing as a spirit is not life (note: saying "the body being life and the soul being death" does not mean that the soul is not life), but what I deny is that it is not death.

You don't have to bring in your own idea of the self though, you could do what I attempt to do and find a median between the various opinions and views, or find one which fits the lore and back it up, not just imputing your own view without any backing to why it would be the case in lore.

I doubt all views of the soul do so, the majority, yes, but I bet there's a minority somewhere that believes otherwise.

In saying that I chose the ones that suit me, you disregarded that I was choosing the ones that related to the discussion from my perspective. In this way, both of us chose definitions that suited our viewing of the discussion.

If the soul is the life force then the body shouldn't die until the soul is terminated then, if I understand what you're getting at here correctly. That doesn't click with the information we have on Tyria, as the soul still exists despite the body ceasing operation. Unless you're simply suggesting that the soul is what makes our mind exist and function or something of that sort, and the two working together permit us to consciously utilize our bodies.

I've not read many works that seriously consider the interaction between soul, mind, and body, if that isn't apparent here.

I think if the Undead are created by forcing the soul into an old corpse, it may be that it does cease the degenerative processes in a way. How, I'm not sure, but it may. Then again, the majority of the Undead we encounter, excluding the Desolation's, are just bones, with maybe a few scraps of flesh, or a mix of the two. At least, as I recall, the majority we encounter in Kryta are more bone than flesh or flesh and bone.

Views of life in a sentence: The majority of what we perceive is mostly illusory, due to the nature of humans to impose their subjective reality on objective reality.

I don't see why death isn't defined as nonexistence, but that's just me and my views of reality again. At least if death is defined in a more personal manner, regarding the existence of the person or the self.

I think we're misunderstanding each other here (and I'm not entirely sure if I understand your refined/formless definitions any longer). I wasn't talking about the actual direction of the River of Souls, what I was talking about was the process they go through. Do they go through the Leech Tunnels to then be inserted into the dammed area of the River of Souls? Or do they extract souls from the River to be placed in the Leech Tunnels to be later taken to the Foundry of Failed Creations to be turned into Titans? (This latter idea actually makes more sense to me.)

Returning to the refined/formless part...You've kind of lost me a bit. I think of unrefined/formless as being one in the same, with refined having a more solid (what we see of most ghosts on Tyria and in the Underworld) form. I see, however, where refined would be more appropriate in the case of those seen escaping the Door of Komalie to form the Titans. In the other cases though, they strike me as merely unrefined.

Not really, you chose the ones that suit your perspective of the discussion and disregarded those which have a sway on the discussion, while I showed all those which could be related to the discussion.

Not quite. The body cannot live without the soul and the soul is needed for the body to live. This does not mean that the body will die when the soul leaves, this means that if the soul leaves the body will die, but the body still die while the soul is within the body, but at that moment the soul and mind will leave the body.

That's because I was speaking of my own view of reality, not Tyria.

In terms of Tyria, I'm unsure if they are 2 or 3 at the moment. If they are three, then it is just like what I said above: The soul is needed for the body to live, but the soul is not needed to leave (first) for the body to die.

Realized that by now.

There are zombies (take the Ghouls for instance), though a majority are Skeletons, or mostly skeletal in appearance. Though due to not seeing the progression of normal undead (it is clear that Joko no longer decomposes), it cannot be certain that the decomposition stops.

Probably due to the people who say things like "he'll exist as long as we remember him" or the like. Which would mean in their view that the soul is perception - but not perception of the self, perception of the whole (thus even Julius Caesar is still alive because we remember him).

Oh, I know you didn't mean regarding the direction of the River of Souls, I was bringing that up because it goes two directions thus (both directions technically starting from the Gate of Pain) because we need to know which way the River of Souls should go before we say that they first went through the Leech Tunnels. Basically, if the River of Souls starts elsewhere, why would they join mid-way?

You said refined and I forgot that previously you called them unrefined not refined. I don't think there is a refined or unrefined idea to them. They are just another model for spirits. It is their "shadow form" mentioned in the manuscripts that allows them to go through anything and for everything to go through them (which really fits the current skill of the same name). Either they will take their mortal/body form, or they will take a more unanimous form which allows them to fly, go through objects, be unharmed, etc, but also prevent holding objects and from harming others. And that it is unrelated in general to Titans.

What is related to titans is the "demonic formless" spirits - those which have horns on them, and seems to be the older of the two models used. These exist within the Soul Batteries, in the spirit bridge, from the Door of Komalie, around the Halloween Cauldrons (no where else), and in the Foundry of Failed Creations. But these are not "Titan spirits" - instead they would either be tortured, insane, or evil spirits. As such, they are spirits which are more likely to become or are Titans, but not all will be the spirit form of Titans.

Man, has anyone told you two that your hard to keep up with? Maye it would be worth having these discussions before hand and adding them as footnotes.

I've been told that a lot, even by Leon. And a pre-posting discussion has occurred before, such as with my old research on the Centaurs. And even slightly on my Depths of Tyria structures research.

That's why I'm just taking a break at the moment. Besides that, you should have seen Durmand Priory over on GW2Guru when all the info was being released. Now that was hard to keep up with, considering it was multiple threads with discussions somewhat similar in nature to this one, in length and speed of response.

It's not overtly hard, but I find myself having to read quite a bit, and with so many conflicting opinions, it's hard to make a sold descision(sp?) on something. Either way, I do find it all interesting, and it is fun to read, so I don't mind. Though it does make me question some of my views on things, like the Dragons, The Lich, and the Titans, I do still like following along in these threads.

Sadly I lack the time or patience to research as much as you two do, otherwise I would have more to say. Also you two have a knack at making me re-check facts six or seven times.

Plasma isn't between liquid and gas, it just has properties that are similar to each. As a state, it actually comes after gas.

A Deal's A Deal:

Why?

And in some cases...how? A biological cell has a structure that relies on its components being in the states they are in at temperatures we find comfortable - a mix of solid, liquid, and aqueous states. Cells as we know them couldn't exist in a life form composed mostly of plasma - while it's possible that they might have something similar, it could just as easily be a homogenous mass of plasma material constrained into a given shape.

On the discussion about the definition of death - I had a brief discussion with Leon during the Wintersday finale. Basically, I'd consider them to be different kinds of death - the biological death of the body (which in Tyria I would define as the moment the soul departs) and the final death of the consciousness.

If I had to choose one to be the one to apply the term "death" to, I'd probably label the biological death as such (since life after death is common enough in various religions to imagine that the people who believe in those religions at least consider the consciousness to remain after death) while the death of the consciousness would be "oblivion".