Whats the idea with locusts fury?
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vazze
You need two skill slots outside your bar to get similar dps as ms/db (...I have no idea what that translates into in your very open mind, "decent", "omfg"...something else perhaps?
) and that is =/= "entire party build".
What 2 skills? Let's try to keep the argument as concrete as possible. 
HigherMinion
As a sin that used to run a MoP trigger-sin (Locust's Fury) I was SY spamming, Using Dodge This and Whirlwind for a burst of AoE damage and to activate SY faster. It was better AoE damage than MS/DB due to MoP, and better Single-target, due to the fact that all the buffs that are placed improve every hit.
If LF hits more often, then obviously that must tell you the buffs affect it more?
If LF hits more often, then obviously that must tell you the buffs affect it more?
Vazze
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
What 2 skills? Let's try to keep the argument as concrete as possible.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=33
The two skills are GDW and SoH.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=33The two skills are GDW and SoH.
Bobby2
So what you're saying is
[LF + SOH + GDW] has more DPS than [Blossom combo + SoH + GDW]
?
[LF + SOH + GDW] has more DPS than [Blossom combo + SoH + GDW]
?
riktw
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDave
For MS/DB + SoH + Barbs - 182 DPS
For LF + SoH + Barbs - 184 DPS
The numbers are near enough the same with the buffs. Any further buffs (like GDW) would result in LF doing significantly more single target damage. This is of course against a 60AL target. The attack chain i used in the LF build is only there to apply deep wound. I didn't spam the skills if DW was not on the target, just auto attacked.
Both builds have their plus points. LF hits more often meaning SY! can be used more often, but it's more vunerable to enchant stripping and without buffs it's damage is pretty low. MS/DB does more AoE damage and doesn't need buffs to do high damage but hits less often making SY! harder to spam.
Both builds work well.
that
LF + 2 buffs is at least close to the damage of moebius spam.
and more SY! is awesome to.
bad part is enchantment ripping as stated by bigdave.
and pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 and then C-space is nice, as i am lazy.
add dodge this + SY! on your bar, and your just as good as a blossem spammer imho
For LF + SoH + Barbs - 184 DPS
The numbers are near enough the same with the buffs. Any further buffs (like GDW) would result in LF doing significantly more single target damage. This is of course against a 60AL target. The attack chain i used in the LF build is only there to apply deep wound. I didn't spam the skills if DW was not on the target, just auto attacked.
Both builds have their plus points. LF hits more often meaning SY! can be used more often, but it's more vunerable to enchant stripping and without buffs it's damage is pretty low. MS/DB does more AoE damage and doesn't need buffs to do high damage but hits less often making SY! harder to spam.
Both builds work well.
that
LF + 2 buffs is at least close to the damage of moebius spam.
and more SY! is awesome to.
bad part is enchantment ripping as stated by bigdave.
and pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 and then C-space is nice, as i am lazy.
add dodge this + SY! on your bar, and your just as good as a blossem spammer imho
_Nihilist_
Not to burst anyone's bubble, but the testing parameters to prove which is better are going to be hideously difficult to set up.
LF+buffs is only capable of dealing AoE when supported by MoP, while MS/DB - regardless of whether or not there are buffs - deals AoE damage on its own.
The only way you can crunch the numbers is to set up a table comparing the number of foes you are hitting with each, and even then, unless you are actually testing it in-game, the numbers are still going to be theoretical, and therefore in the eyes of many, moot; in other words, just another trollbait/flamebait thread/discussion/whatever. You would also have to check different MS/DB variants, as some players prefer a faster frontload to the unblockable/stance-ending GFS/WS L>O chain which was, for a while, the standard L>O lead-in for MS/DB.
Suffice it to say that theorycraft will tell you one thing, which is that an MS/DB variant is going to eat face when against multiple adjacent foes, which, in the end, is going to happen enough that LF+buffs might outstrip it on single targets, but unless you can absolutely guarantee single-targets with no adjacents, MS/DB is still gonna win.
I might be wrong, but then again, I can live with it. At least my explanation is solid.
LF+buffs is only capable of dealing AoE when supported by MoP, while MS/DB - regardless of whether or not there are buffs - deals AoE damage on its own.
The only way you can crunch the numbers is to set up a table comparing the number of foes you are hitting with each, and even then, unless you are actually testing it in-game, the numbers are still going to be theoretical, and therefore in the eyes of many, moot; in other words, just another trollbait/flamebait thread/discussion/whatever. You would also have to check different MS/DB variants, as some players prefer a faster frontload to the unblockable/stance-ending GFS/WS L>O chain which was, for a while, the standard L>O lead-in for MS/DB.
Suffice it to say that theorycraft will tell you one thing, which is that an MS/DB variant is going to eat face when against multiple adjacent foes, which, in the end, is going to happen enough that LF+buffs might outstrip it on single targets, but unless you can absolutely guarantee single-targets with no adjacents, MS/DB is still gonna win.
I might be wrong, but then again, I can live with it. At least my explanation is solid.
Tenebrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
You don't even need MS to beat LF. Even just JS+FF+DB is going to always cause more AoE bursts than LF. Much more, even, since the entire chain (4 hits) activates faster than 2 autoattacks.
Excuse me WHAT ? no.
Btw , MSDB has more potential due to its AoE but lets not take that as a "hey a do AoE dmg sometimes and you dont so i win" card because its so far from reality that is almost lying.
Btw , MSDB has more potential due to its AoE but lets not take that as a "hey a do AoE dmg sometimes and you dont so i win" card because its so far from reality that is almost lying.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vazze
That's true. If lead and offhand are 1/2s, that is a major speed buff.
Cue me screaming JAGGED EXHAUSTING MOEBIUS BLOSSOM (again)
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae
You are incorrect. Yes is the correct answer.
Dual attacks = automatic double strike. There is a .125s delay between double-strike hits, they do NOT strike at once.
JS+FF+DB = .5s + .5s + 1.33s + .125s = 2.455s.
Under IAS the total is: 1.62s for FOUR hits. Lead, Offhand, Dual1, Dual2
2x Auto attack = 1.33 x 2 = 2.66s.
Under IAS the total is: 1.76s for TWO hits.
If LF triggers BOTH times (unlikely) under IAS then the result is: 1.92s for FOUR hits.
Tenebrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Dual attacks = automatic double strike. There is a .125s delay between double-strike hits, they do NOT strike at once.
Quote: Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
JS+FF+DB = .5s + .5s + 1.33s + .125s = 2.455s.Under IAS the total is: 1.62s for FOUR hits. Lead, Offhand, Dual1, Dual2
2x Auto attack = 1.33 x 2 = 2.66s.
Under IAS the total is: 1.76s for TWO hits.
If LF triggers BOTH times (unlikely) under IAS then the result is: 1.92s for FOUR hits. JS+FF+DB = 1,62 + 2x .125 = 1,87s
2x Auto Attacks with LF means FOUR attacks , 80% of that to happen so that "unlikely" is more like sci fi pal. He said that the full 3 skills go faster than 2 autoattacks ( NOT dual attacks wich have the same DELAY between them and skill usage ) wich is in 80% of the cases ( or more ) 0,88seg and worst case scenario ( VERY VERY unlikely ) 1,72seg under IAS so yes , the correct answer is no .
And btw , this has no case because if i can remember well , LF sins can have 3 skills for a combo so this "hey i have this and you dont" doesnt work here .
Bobby2
Chthon
1. In case anyone missed it, my last few posts have been directed narrowly at the misconception that LF is a good skill for triggering MoP.
2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vazze
2.
Quote:
In my calculation lead and offhand had "normal" activation times. If LF is compared to a JS+FF+DB chain alone, the chain is always going to have higher single target dps (as well) no matter what the buff is since JS+FF takes less time (1s) than a simple dual attack (1.33s).
3.
Quote: Reality might be a bit different: queuing these attacks under IAS is not gonna be perfect After some practice I got much better at it. No one's perfect, but it's quite easy to bring it in MUCH faster than 3 normal-speed attacks.
4.
Quote: and the 1.5s execution time (under +33 IAS) is not exactly ideal for the 3s recharge of FF. I was accepting your premise that the initial l-o-d killed the target. Insofar as that premise is true, it's not a problem since 1.5 sec travel time to the next target isn't unrealistic (especially if MoP+DB killed everything adjacent). Insofar as that premise is false, I'm going to run JS+FF+DB+MS to get the best of both worlds.
4.
Quote:
This. Though I hate it mostly because of the cast time.
Really ? huh , how fun , i had the same impression about you ( cough cough*Rangerforum* cough ). At least i dont insult and drop some random BS , i guess that unbalances the "equation".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
Quote:
As usual, you happen to be wrong about the activation times. (Car is right. Wiki1. Wiki2.) But even if you were right, you'd still be wrong about the larger point.
The thing is that you spelled it wrong but you are never going to admit it. I dont care about MoP but as i aswered to this part:- "Much more, even, since the entire chain (4 hits) activates faster than 2 autoattacks"
Wich is false ; 2 autoattacks with LF happen in 0,88s with 33% IAS because it double strikes and i dont know in your country but in mine 1 autoattack wich is a double strike = 2 autoattacks ( 80% of the times if you like ) so no , is not faster. It would be FASTER than 4 autoattacks ( about 0,10s if car is right ).
Excuse me WHAT ? no. Quote: Quote: "Much more, even, since the entire chain (4 hits) activates faster than 2 autoattacks" Wich is false ; 2 autoattacks with LF happen in 0,88s with 33% IAS because it double strikes and i dont know in your country but in mine 1 autoattack wich is a double strike = 2 autoattacks ( 80% of the times if you like ) so no , is not faster. It would be FASTER than 4 autoattacks ( about 0,10s if car is right ). Quit trying to muddy the issue by redefining "auto attack." The second hit on an auto attack is not an independent "auto attack" any more than the second hit on DB is an independent dual attack. My point was that JS+FF+DB delivers hits faster than auto-attacking under LF (as does MS+DB). This is undeniable true. So stop trying to weasel around it by playing with the terminology.
Quote:
You're confusing critical strikes with double strikes.|
Maybe your problem ( or mine ) is misunderstanding but for me 1 autoattack with LF = 2 ,
Your problem. You can't nitpick about a 0.125 sec delay (that doesn't exist) and then turn around and lazily round 80% up to 100%. An auto attack under LF with 14 mastery yields 1.8 hits, not 2. If you can't be assed to work with decimal points, you shouldn't even venture into this sort of conversation. Quote:
Im not playing with nothing dude. The second hit on an autoattack wich double strikes is not an independent "auto attack" ? lol then what it is ? an attack skill ? a bonus damage ? a bonus attack ?. I know your point but here on earth autoattack = attack that character does when its on attack mode and therefore YES , 2 autoattacks with LF will be equal to 4 autoattacks due to doublestrikes 80% of the time. THAT is a FACT like 2+2=4.
Quote:
You got it wrong , i understand it so well that all explanation is not needed. The point is that theres some point that maths =\= real GW experience and thats it. The first bolded part is undeniable but if you wanna go with "mister maths player" ok , im right 80% of the time and wrong 20% .Quote:
Oh and in relation to that screenshot that puts LF and MS/DB close in dmg, remember this is an unarmoured (60al) target armor ignoring bonus DB Dmg remains constant on a 100al target where as LF's dmg will be cut in half.
Have a nice day. EDIT : The actual chance of getting 3 double strikes in a row is 0.8^3 = 0.512ie, this is far from 100% Fixed. Anyway non-stupid ppl will use weaken armor in curses hero for HM but thats another stuff. And btw , LF chance is a + , not a 50% more chance of the current doublestrikes chance you have with daggers ( wich is 30+2 % ) wich is about 82% . Test it and youll see that is closer to 80-85 than 45-50% . PS: All guild still lol'ing about that "The second hit on an autoattack with double strikes is not an independent "auto attack" .
_Nihilist_
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae
PS: All guild still lol'ing about that "The second hit on an autoattack with double strikes is not an independent "auto attack".
It's not an independent auto-attack. If it were an independent auto-attack, it, too, would have a chance to double strike, which it does not. Semantics Wars can end now, thanks.
Nosam
Hmm. Locust's Fury as along with Temple Strike are underrated Elite Assasin Skills. People don't like to use these skill because of either of these reasons:
1.)Don't understand the skill and it's capabilities. 2.)Don't know how to use it correctly and would rather use MS/DB or the overrated Assasin Elite Skill Palm Strike. (Rarely do I use MS/DB don't even use Palm Strike period.) That is my debate on Locust's Fury.
BlackSephir
And I bet you're going to help us understand LF's awesomeness and how to use them correctly.
Bobby2 Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
And I bet you're going to help us understand LF's awesomeness and how to use them correctly.
Yes, please help us understand LF's awesomeness. You get bonus points for including lots of unwarranted personal insults and brilliant calculations like 1.8 * 3 = 6.
Seriously, though, I'm open to the possibility that LF might be good for something in some context, even though I sure as hell can't imagine how. But you've got to show it. Unsubstantiated claims (and unwarranted personal insults and brilliant calculations like 1.8 * 3 = 6) don't convince anyone and just make you look like a fool. Or, to put my point more briefly: put up or shut up.
BlackSephir
Yeah, so far so good with proving his points.
All talk, no shock.
Kaleban
I still like my idea of changing LF to IO...
 I've actually been using an LF build recently, using a simple attack chain along with it. Of course, without buffs, it doesn't hold a candle to MS/DB. But what got me thinking was the difference in how the two builds work. DB spam is basically AoE armor ignoring damage (nice) and can get rediculous in a big group. Thing is, once you max out your DM, DB's damage can't increase any more. And while it does a lot of aggregate damage, it might not be as efficient at taking down a single target, which is what the Sin SHOULD be about lol. The advantage to LF, at least theoretically, is that the second autoattack when it triggers can proc all sorts of benefits. From simple conjures to Rit weapon spells, which DB cannot. Does that outweigh DB's simply massive AoE ability? Perhaps not, but there have been times in PvE where I wish I hadn't relied on DB, such as using GPS and MS, and having either skill interrupted or disabled. Autoattacks can't be disabled, Rit spells and Paragon shouts can't be removed, etc. Not that I'm arguing for either way, I use many different Sin builds in PvE, based around what area I'm in and what I feel like playing at the moment. I'm generally not a min/max type of player, so the math guts of these arguments don't interest me terribly. It IS fun though playing a LF build, and not having to worry so much about timing attack skills, or hitting the same sequence of skills over and over again. And while it is extremely inefficient to do so, it is also fun to load up heros with a bunch of buffs like SoH and conjures, cast them all on the sin and see just how much damage it can rack up!
Dark Paladin X
Comparing Locust's Fury to let say, Moebius Strike, Assassin's Promise, and Shadow Form, this elite skill isn't often used. And besides, assassins do have a high double strike rate in conjunction with an non-elite PvE skill, Critical Agility. However, like many pointed out, Locust's Fury can have some good synergy with Mark of Pain or Splinter Weapon. Besides, I did found a decent PvP build that can help maintain "Save Yourselves!" if Locust's Fury is used in conjunction with an IAS. However, compared to Imbagon, this build isn't as effective (since Paragons get more benefits from shouting).
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X
|
Quote:
Presumably, the same would apply to a player with the intelligence of a hero.
Quote: Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X
I think it is completely worthless to waste an elite skill that increases the chances of double striking while you can have high attributes of Dagger Mastery and use the non-elite skill, Critical Agility to get the similar DPS results.
I agree.