So im kinda amazed right now...
jay02483
so ive been playing guildwars for almost 4 years now, so i seen alot of fad builds come and go....to be honest i dont know who actually comes up with like the 55hp monk or the perma sin...but is it just me or like if its a person who just play guildwars wayy too much but...arent you completely bogggled that someone is so amazing at videogames they find builds and these skills and items and just figure out how to exploit a whole games mechanics?
MrTev
Its a simple idea, it just takes creativity, and thinking outside the box.
Black Metal
it's more mathematics and understanding game mechanics and calculations
55 is a pretty simple formula: use 5 supe runes plus the -50 cesta, your life is 55. constantly have ps up, you only take 5.5 dam at a time, with +10 health regen you are constantly regening to full health, if you start taking tons of hits, put up spirit bond
as for perma, same thing. You know the duration of sf, and the recharge time. Use skills and + enchant mods until you can get sf last slightly longer than it's recharge.
It's not like someone just kept trying random combinations of skills until the magic combination appeared.
55 is a pretty simple formula: use 5 supe runes plus the -50 cesta, your life is 55. constantly have ps up, you only take 5.5 dam at a time, with +10 health regen you are constantly regening to full health, if you start taking tons of hits, put up spirit bond
as for perma, same thing. You know the duration of sf, and the recharge time. Use skills and + enchant mods until you can get sf last slightly longer than it's recharge.
It's not like someone just kept trying random combinations of skills until the magic combination appeared.
jay02483
no but im saying ur breaking it down like neone could have figured that out...i mean i seriously doubt 95%+ guildwars players could figure out suc ha effective build
Operative 14
I don't know. Personally I have a hard time keeping track of skills. I've never been terribly interested or good at coming up with combinations, usually I just slap a build together that sounds good and works okay and head off to do my business.
However when my guildees are on TS, they banter back and forth like pros about switching this skill for that and coming up with this. And I've seen them come up with some amazing (albeit odd - like an Ele build for FA that cripples an enemy so they move around at the speed of molasses for 30 seconds while being completely invulnerable to attacks. So you can keep them alive indefinately having them walk around super slow just to annoy them) builds that I would never have thought of. I think some people are just geared to remember things like skill mechanics, they get bored, and they come up with stuff.
When you look at the mechanics behind the Permasin and 55, they're incredibly simple. 55 seems out of the box to me, though Permasin makes sense. If you had a skill that made you invulnerable and you only needed it to last a *little* longer to keep it up indefinitely, I'd start looking around for things to keep up enchantments. Also, remember in its original form, Shadow Form had a little more time on it (if I remember correctly).
However when my guildees are on TS, they banter back and forth like pros about switching this skill for that and coming up with this. And I've seen them come up with some amazing (albeit odd - like an Ele build for FA that cripples an enemy so they move around at the speed of molasses for 30 seconds while being completely invulnerable to attacks. So you can keep them alive indefinately having them walk around super slow just to annoy them) builds that I would never have thought of. I think some people are just geared to remember things like skill mechanics, they get bored, and they come up with stuff.
When you look at the mechanics behind the Permasin and 55, they're incredibly simple. 55 seems out of the box to me, though Permasin makes sense. If you had a skill that made you invulnerable and you only needed it to last a *little* longer to keep it up indefinitely, I'd start looking around for things to keep up enchantments. Also, remember in its original form, Shadow Form had a little more time on it (if I remember correctly).
Shayne Hawke
Am I surprised that synergy exists? No. Perhaps the degree to which a build can be effective, but there's nothing shocking about the creation of an efficient build.
Eragon Zarroc
nah, it's not shocking that people find ways to exploit games. lol. u find the easy way, u use it till it is taken away from u. basic ;-)
Gun Pierson
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jay02483
i mean i seriously doubt 95%+ guildwars players could figure out suc ha effective build
|
Everybody can say the 55 setup is easy now, point is they didn't come up with it. One person did, but forgot his name. His way of thinking inspired others to come up with the 100 and later the 600 build when Spirit Bond arrived.
moriz
to be fair, the A/E perma build was extremely obvious. the day anet made that change, i went into ToA with my assassin, and saw twenty people all sitting there, with the exact same primary/secondary.
for shits and giggles, i typed in all chat: "glyph of swiftness+deadly paradox+shadowform+enchant mod?"
the replies were:
"lol yep"
"awesome"
"gg anet"
"free ectoz!"
actually i forgot what the reactions were, but i think i got it pretty close.
for shits and giggles, i typed in all chat: "glyph of swiftness+deadly paradox+shadowform+enchant mod?"
the replies were:
"lol yep"
"awesome"
"gg anet"
"free ectoz!"
actually i forgot what the reactions were, but i think i got it pretty close.
Coney
After being directly involved in the development of the 100LOLz/MOP W/N raptor build (+ para hero runner), I have to say it's not surprising that a group of thinkers can come up with a min-skillset that deals with the opponents in a (mini-)max sort of manner.
Not very shocking, to be sure. The influx of nerfage clearly indicates they've acknowledged their lacking in game development...
Not very shocking, to be sure. The influx of nerfage clearly indicates they've acknowledged their lacking in game development...
MMSDome
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jay02483
no but im saying ur breaking it down like neone could have figured that out...i mean i seriously doubt 95%+ guildwars players could figure out suc ha effective build
|
Martin Alvito
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jay02483
sarent you completely bogggled that someone is so amazing at videogames they find builds and these skills and items and just figure out how to exploit a whole games mechanics?
|
No. You can reduce any situation (in the abstract) in Guild Wars to mathematics, bounce optimization theory off it, and spit out a solution. The only real skill involved is setting up the equations, which requires deftly managing the sheer number of variables and mechanics the game throws at you and making quality assumptions.
Optimization theory won't teach you how to kite, how to counter kiting, how to set up your keyboard, or how to recognize adversary skill usage visually. But it will tell you things such as which skills to interrupt, which skills to bring and why Warriors put out more damage over time than anything else, assuming skillful play.
Since the AI is predictable and uses fixed skill sets, it is almost absurdly easy to exploit PvE. Once you solve the problem, it stays solved. PvP is a lot more complicated, because you have to start accounting for opponents' reactions to your decisions. There's another branch of mathematics (game theory) that deals with this, but it's more challenging to learn, easier to screw up, and limited in its practical applications to GW because non-strategic skills like kiting have more of an impact on match outcomes than the proper application of game theory.
Note that you don't have to bother with the calculus when doing this stuff. Concepts like damage over time serve perfectly well.
Jerrodh
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MMSDome
Doubtful, that 95% of GW players have no creativity and leech builds off an even smaller population.
|
Doesn't mean they have no creativity. Everyone has a creative side with some of their builds, just because they find different things more effective.
But the point that was being made is not everyone can just come up with pro builds that work so vastly in given situwations in PVE or PVP for a wild range of players.
Back more on topic: Do I think the person doesn't have a life. No Im sure s/he does. A person can easily play 5hrs a day and have a life, and putting that much time into things and NOT being stupid could easily lead to some people figuring out incredibable builds that exploit the game in multiple ways.
Not to say said person even plays that much, like they said just actually taking some time and considering options and outcomes, doing the MATH, and putting things together, then testing them, and whala it works!
It's very possible.
Icy Spicy
of all the builds, i think 55 is the only one that was somewhat thinking outside of the box, everything else is simply stack the right enchants and extend them for as long as possible etc etc... most people simply would not have considered reducing health to increase survivability, until they find out that it worked better than doing the usual things
mage767
Those who are willing and able to adapt to every situation and make the best of it are the ones who come up with optimized builds to counter that given situation.
It has nothing to do with how good the player is, how many hours he plays or how many titles he has. A player can be 'GWAMM' tier 6 and still suck at build adaptation if he used the same few bars throughout his adventures. In fact, I met a pve warrior player the other day 'GWAMM tier 5', who had no idea what SY (save yourselves) stood for. He used ursan to get the z-mish done...good for him.
Personally, I like to adapt to every map I play. That's what makes the game fun for me. My hero bars are also changing to produce close to optimal synergy with my updated build. And yes, I do like using heroes from ALL professions.
My current goal is to find ways of effectively dealing with Charrs in HM (for vq, and books) in EOTN. When I am done with it, and find a new 'threat', I will develop ways to deal with it as well.
It has nothing to do with how good the player is, how many hours he plays or how many titles he has. A player can be 'GWAMM' tier 6 and still suck at build adaptation if he used the same few bars throughout his adventures. In fact, I met a pve warrior player the other day 'GWAMM tier 5', who had no idea what SY (save yourselves) stood for. He used ursan to get the z-mish done...good for him.
Personally, I like to adapt to every map I play. That's what makes the game fun for me. My hero bars are also changing to produce close to optimal synergy with my updated build. And yes, I do like using heroes from ALL professions.
My current goal is to find ways of effectively dealing with Charrs in HM (for vq, and books) in EOTN. When I am done with it, and find a new 'threat', I will develop ways to deal with it as well.
zzyawn
When people hungers for money, they will inevitably come up with new and improved farming builds 
.
.
dr love
its really not that amazing. it was bound to happen.
Alleji
I'm surprised a lot of people here don't consider 55 monk an amazing and remarkable build. I can't help but assume they either weren't there for when it happened or don't remember it well.
Other farm build (including shadowform) are just that: creative farming builds, but the 55 monk was a revolution. Not only in farming, but in thinking.
There are quite a few things that set it apart from any other farming build:
1. It was the first of its kind. All previous farming builds were just warriors stacking damage mitigation. A light bulb doesn't seem very impressive to us, but surely you wouldn't dismiss it just because someone was bound to think of running current through a wire immersed in gas sooner or later.
2. Stacking superior runes takes a fair bit more "thinking outside the box" than just coming up with a creative bar. 55 monk was the only build at the time that used nonstandard equipment, including a quest item (later the 600 PS/SB build used low AL armor to artificially increase damage taken).
3. People haven't even thought of equipment as a part of a build at that point in the game... and this didn't completely change until a while later when people started using shields on casters in PvP, etc
4. It's not a whole bar, but rather half a bar without even using the elite slot that could be put on any class with a monk secondary. This turned the game's economy on its head because anybody with any class could farm... something only warriors have been doing previously. I did quite a lot of stuff with my 55 necro back in the day.
5. It could farm absolutely friggin everything. In its pre-nerf form (with prot bond) and before anet started designing and fixing areas to make it harder, 55 monk was literally a solo button for the whole game... a much easier solo button than shadow form almost 4 years later.
Yes, someone was bound to think of it sooner or later, but it didn't happen until 2 or 3 months after release and if you've been playing back then I simply don't see how you can't acknowledge it as anything short of amazing.
Other farm build (including shadowform) are just that: creative farming builds, but the 55 monk was a revolution. Not only in farming, but in thinking.
There are quite a few things that set it apart from any other farming build:
1. It was the first of its kind. All previous farming builds were just warriors stacking damage mitigation. A light bulb doesn't seem very impressive to us, but surely you wouldn't dismiss it just because someone was bound to think of running current through a wire immersed in gas sooner or later.
2. Stacking superior runes takes a fair bit more "thinking outside the box" than just coming up with a creative bar. 55 monk was the only build at the time that used nonstandard equipment, including a quest item (later the 600 PS/SB build used low AL armor to artificially increase damage taken).
3. People haven't even thought of equipment as a part of a build at that point in the game... and this didn't completely change until a while later when people started using shields on casters in PvP, etc
4. It's not a whole bar, but rather half a bar without even using the elite slot that could be put on any class with a monk secondary. This turned the game's economy on its head because anybody with any class could farm... something only warriors have been doing previously. I did quite a lot of stuff with my 55 necro back in the day.
5. It could farm absolutely friggin everything. In its pre-nerf form (with prot bond) and before anet started designing and fixing areas to make it harder, 55 monk was literally a solo button for the whole game... a much easier solo button than shadow form almost 4 years later.
Yes, someone was bound to think of it sooner or later, but it didn't happen until 2 or 3 months after release and if you've been playing back then I simply don't see how you can't acknowledge it as anything short of amazing.
obsidian ectoplasm
I too am amazed!
Who could of thought a skill that makes all attacks and spells fail which can be kept up permanently could be used as a solo farming build?
Who could of thought a skill that makes all attacks and spells fail which can be kept up permanently could be used as a solo farming build?
My New Name
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Black Metal
it's more mathematics and understanding game mechanics and calculations
55 is a pretty simple formula: use 5 supe runes plus the -50 cesta, your life is 55. constantly have ps up, you only take 5.5 dam at a time, with +10 health regen you are constantly regening to full health, if you start taking tons of hits, put up spirit bond as for perma, same thing. You know the duration of sf, and the recharge time. Use skills and + enchant mods until you can get sf last slightly longer than it's recharge. It's not like someone just kept trying random combinations of skills until the magic combination appeared. |
i was always baffled when i played 600 or perma i was thinking:
man who made this stuff...
AtomicMew
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by moriz
to be fair, the A/E perma build was extremely obvious. the day anet made that change, i went into ToA with my assassin, and saw twenty people all sitting there, with the exact same primary/secondary.
for shits and giggles, i typed in all chat: "glyph of swiftness+deadly paradox+shadowform+enchant mod?" the replies were: "lol yep" "awesome" "gg anet" "free ectoz!" actually i forgot what the reactions were, but i think i got it pretty close. |
How about specific builds for different areas in UWSC or FOWSC? A lot of the original builds are just well thought out and I don't think most of them are particularly obvious
damkel
Concerning the 55p build.
Jesterbot is the orginal creator.
His first build can be found here.
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=357625
He then altered it so that it could be doable with a level 20 character by including the -50hp offhand item and 5 superior runes.
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=362793
Very interesting and well written guides.
Jesterbot is the orginal creator.
His first build can be found here.
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=357625
He then altered it so that it could be doable with a level 20 character by including the -50hp offhand item and 5 superior runes.
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=362793
Very interesting and well written guides.
QueenofDeath
What makes you think Jesterbot is the origional creator just because he was the first to have it posted on the web?
stanzhao
guildwars is nothing but a numbers game. with the way the skill system works with second proffesions and attribute points, its merely finding a stronger counter/attack then those of your foes. especially in PVE where the people you fight against have a fixed set of skills, its easy to look up those skills and manipulate them for farming. especially mele foes.
with the skill system GW uses, and with just a basic knowledge of skills, most people could come up with the builds. its just a case of who gets there first. or who bothers to announce it to the community first.
with the skill system GW uses, and with just a basic knowledge of skills, most people could come up with the builds. its just a case of who gets there first. or who bothers to announce it to the community first.
Brother Andicus
It basically comes down to 3 elements, knowledge of the game (skills and mechanics), knowledge of what you require the build to do, and creativity.
The HUGE majority of players (90%+ i'd say) dont have a good level of any of these.
Occasionally there is a person that is particularly good at 1 of these things and competent at the others and they come up with the really good stuff.
The best example I can think of is pretty old, but I think theres still some around here that will remember.
If you go back to GvG when obs mode was still in its infancy, you'd see loads of guilds with terrible builds. Top 100 guilds tended to have better builds because they had 1 maybe 2 members that understood the game a bit better. And then you had guilds like [rift] who were fortunate enough to have an excellent build maker and came up with several inventive builds that went on to be copied by numerous others.
Along similar lines, I'm sure most of us that have been around since the start all remember Ensign, who understood the game mechanics far better after a few months than most people do even now.
Its people like that who are able to make history if you like in a game like GW, all the other 99% of us can do is hope to follow by their example. Much as everyone likes to think they are GW gods (especially in RA!!), and we can all farm the title of course, the reality is there are very very few that can make a justified claim to such a thing.
The HUGE majority of players (90%+ i'd say) dont have a good level of any of these.
Occasionally there is a person that is particularly good at 1 of these things and competent at the others and they come up with the really good stuff.
The best example I can think of is pretty old, but I think theres still some around here that will remember.
If you go back to GvG when obs mode was still in its infancy, you'd see loads of guilds with terrible builds. Top 100 guilds tended to have better builds because they had 1 maybe 2 members that understood the game a bit better. And then you had guilds like [rift] who were fortunate enough to have an excellent build maker and came up with several inventive builds that went on to be copied by numerous others.
Along similar lines, I'm sure most of us that have been around since the start all remember Ensign, who understood the game mechanics far better after a few months than most people do even now.
Its people like that who are able to make history if you like in a game like GW, all the other 99% of us can do is hope to follow by their example. Much as everyone likes to think they are GW gods (especially in RA!!), and we can all farm the title of course, the reality is there are very very few that can make a justified claim to such a thing.
Olim Chill
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jay02483
.arent you completely bogggled that someone is so amazing at videogames they find builds and these skills and items and just figure out how to exploit a whole games mechanics?
|
While someone figuring out how to pwn a video game might seem impressive, I'd save my amazement for exceptional feats in real life (medical breakthroughs, technological advancements, etc.).
damkel
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by QueenofDeath
What makes you think Jesterbot is the origional creator just because he was the first to have it posted on the web?
|
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=357625
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=362793
If you actually read the guides you'll learn how he developed the build. There is another post somewhere (can't find it right now) where he wins an in-game competition for being the first person to solo farm ectos in the underworld
BenjZee
55 was clever, the whole concept of reducing your health to mean they dont do any damage to you.
permasin not quite, the idea of a skill like shadow form where you can't get hurt would have had little thought behind which other skills.
permasin not quite, the idea of a skill like shadow form where you can't get hurt would have had little thought behind which other skills.
Gun Pierson
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alleji
I'm surprised a lot of people here don't consider 55 monk an amazing and remarkable build.
|
rohara
i think the 55 and 600 are probably the most clever/creative and not blatantly obvious (ala SF) farming builds ever created. i would never have thought to put all sup runes on my armor, AND get the -50 cesta. never would have thought to wear non-max armor either. they're versatile enough that with a slight tweak, can handle just about anything - so kudos to their creators.
things like 'sabway' though, i don't think are very impressive. exploiting soul reaping/minion masters is certainly nothing new. it was abused in pvp long before it became a standard in pve - same with smiters.
things like 'sabway' though, i don't think are very impressive. exploiting soul reaping/minion masters is certainly nothing new. it was abused in pvp long before it became a standard in pve - same with smiters.
jay02483
ok we aint talkin bout real world achivements...im just saying most of yall r saying its simple mathmatics but how many of yall came up with it? hindsight is 20/20 and yes its so simple once someone has shown u! What about the Doa foundry trio...i think that is pretty impressive myself when 3 people can do it when most 8 man groups fail terribly
Ġ ō Đ??
personally i've always wondered who the groups to clear UW and FoW were (sorry its a bit off topic) that Urgoz/Deep and DoA
(sorry its a bit off topic) that Urgoz/Deep and DoA
GloryFox
Keep in mind the early reason for the -50hp offhand item was to be used in a Blood Necro 55-1hp build that powers your party spell casters something insane. The 55 monk was a natural evolution to keep the necro alive with as few HP as possible using Protective spirit or other protective skills such as bonds.
The UW FOW Urgoz Deep and other ELITE area's were constantly cleared for years, most of thoes players and guilds are gone and just waiting for Guild Wars 2 to come out next spring.
The UW FOW Urgoz Deep and other ELITE area's were constantly cleared for years, most of thoes players and guilds are gone and just waiting for Guild Wars 2 to come out next spring.
LeoX
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Olim Chill
I think amazement is way too strong of a reaction here.
While someone figuring out how to pwn a video game might seem impressive, I'd save my amazement for exceptional feats in real life (medical breakthroughs, technological advancements, etc.). |
We're having amazement for medical breakthroughs... and technological advancements... (more than one thing), so there's no harm in being amazed by another thing, too.
Yeah, the 55 Build was something which always impressed me!
Okay probably lots of other people could've come up with it, but I wouldn't have because I didn't really have an interest in coming up with "pro builds" and I think dedication and willingness to achieve something were needed to come up with builds such as these.
Saph
The 600 build has always amazed me. Alot of trial and error must have gone into getting that right.
Nepherius
I am new to this game and i dont find the 55 monk so amazing ..its not.I have seen it in other games, i didnt read the forum rules but i assume i am not allowed to say the game names ,in other mmorpgs.I saw it like 4 yrs ago it was kidna the same thing like here , lots of -hp items + an absorb spell ( because some unfair exploits the dmg in PvP was limited to max 10-20% of the total hp).The spell would absorb about 200-300 dmg so it ruled in low lvl pvp obviously.I have seen similar things in browser games ..my point is that build is not that brilliant and unseen ..
BLOODGOAT
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Saph
The 600 build has always amazed me. Alot of trial and error must have gone into getting that right.
|
Martin Alvito
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by GloryFox
The UW FOW Urgoz Deep and other ELITE area's were constantly cleared for years, most of thoes players and guilds are gone and just waiting for Guild Wars 2 to come out next spring.
|
BLOODGOAT
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nepherius
I am new to this game and i dont find the 55 monk so amazing ..its not.I have seen it in other games, i didnt read the forum rules but i assume i am not allowed to say the game names ,in other mmorpgs.I saw it like 4 yrs ago it was kidna the same thing like here , lots of -hp items + an absorb spell ( because some unfair exploits the dmg in PvP was limited to max 10-20% of the total hp).The spell would absorb about 200-300 dmg so it ruled in low lvl pvp obviously.I have seen similar things in browser games ..my point is that build is not that brilliant and unseen ..
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nepherius
I saw it like 4 yrs ago
|
Good to know.
GloryFox
Quote:
|
posted by Martin Alvito Your faith is touching. It is also misguided. Unless you meant to say Mass Effect 2. |
I'm sure I'll pick up where I left off with many of those players. Good times indeed.