Expected to be a perma sin...

Xiner

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2009

the Netherlands

Mo/

15 Nov 2009 at 19:13 - 1
Okay, i don't know if I post this at the right place here at the forum. ^^ But if so, sorry and somebody needs to move it somewhere else.

Almost 3 months ago I started my Assassin and since I started it I have had a lot of fun with it. Soon it became my main-character and I completed every campain on it. Also I am still working on different titles and trying to doing all bonuses/masters etc.

Because my brother was doing Zaishen Quests I tried it out too. (never done before, don't laugh at me xD) So from that time on I did some missions in HM to get the zaishen reward (coins + points and gold) and I enjoyed it.
Usually I only did the Zaishen Mission, but two days ago I wanted to try the bounty for the first time. (Slavers' Exile) I accepted the quest and went to Umbral Grotto, searched a party. The first thing they asked me was to ping my build. I pinged and short after I was kicked. I didn't understand why...
But after reading all messages which people shouted around, I understood you had to be a perma sin.

So I changed my build to a perma assassin, joined a party and the journey begins. Then they asked me to run to the Slavers' Exile. I runned to there. Inside they choose some cave. Then I waited for the whole team to attack some monsters etc. They became angry at me and asked me "WTF are you doing noob?". I didn't understand and asked what they mean. If I have understand them right, they expected me to run this whole dungeon for them...

So why I am writing this whole thing? I just want to fight trough to the end and not run the whole thing. Also I like a perma sin for just farming not to PvE etc. I like an assassin with dagger skills etc, just as an assassin. Not being invulnerable with Shadow Form...
Short: I'm sick of people who think an assassin is always a perma sin.

Is there anything what I can do about this. So I can join parties to do a HM dungeon without being a perma, like any other profession. Or is the only way out to this playing 'another' profession? I just want to play an assassin with different skills, not with keeping up Shadow Form.

I would like to know what you think about this...

Anyway thanks for reading!

Greetings,
Xiner

MercenaryKnight

MercenaryKnight

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2006

Wolf of Shadows [WoS]

P/

15 Nov 2009 at 19:30 - 2
Get a group with friends/ hero and hench it. Trying to find a pug is going to be almost impossible cause they want to do it the lazy/ easy way. Even if you couldn't solo the dungeon they would want you to tank everything so they could just bring some nuker skills and finish it all.

Slasher of Darkness

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2008

Lots of places~

D/

15 Nov 2009 at 19:36 - 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiner View Post
Short: I'm sick of people who think an assassin is always a perma sin. Agree with this. GW is full of mindless ppl who think sins are good only for perma and alot of those ppl cant even PvE, all they do is get runs or something.

Xiner

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2009

the Netherlands

Mo/

15 Nov 2009 at 19:40 - 4
Ye, but isn't it possible to play an assassin with just a dagger or something else build? Just with attacking and not being invulnerable.
Or are dungeons impossible for that?

Sometimes I hope because of this SF will be nerfed... Not because of farming, but the thing I call above. Sorry for saying, but I just want to play an Assassin as an assassin. ^^ I only use perma for farming raptors etc. and trying out some farming spots.

Pale-Dim

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2006

Field Of Dreams

E/Me

15 Nov 2009 at 20:14 - 5
sadly you are kind of stuck for the moment until you can find other players in your position to play with. Most people are looking for the fastest way to get everything done and SF Sin is currently how things are being done the fastest. The only way you will find others to play your style is to seek them out and join their guild. Until we see a nerf to SF that rids us of this current meta your sin will be expected to "run" everyone

Slasher of Darkness

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2008

Lots of places~

D/

15 Nov 2009 at 20:15 - 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiner View Post
Ye, but isn't it possible to play an assassin with just a dagger or something else build? Just with attacking and not being invulnerable.
Or are dungeons impossible for that?

Sometimes I hope because of this SF will be nerfed... Not because of farming, but the thing I call above. Sorry for saying, but I just want to play an Assassin as an assassin. ^^ I only use perma for farming raptors etc. and trying out some farming spots. Yes, you can do everything in this game with an "assassin" assassin. I feel the same way, everyone wants permas always. Just play what u like, with heroes and henchmen, also find a good guild who let u play what u want to play .

BlackSephir

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

15 Nov 2009 at 20:19 - 7
What the hell did you expect from a pug? Especially one that wants perma sin?

Ariena Najea

Ariena Najea

Silence and Motion

Join Date: Jul 2006

Buffalo NY

New Horizon [NH]

15 Nov 2009 at 20:21 - 8
Your only hopes are to make lots of friends, or join a Guild that actually respects you. There is a lot more to the Assassin profession than Shadow Form, but all most players will see is invulnerability.

Notorious Bob

Notorious Bob

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2009

Gwen's underwear drawer

The Curry Kings

R/

15 Nov 2009 at 20:26 - 9
The game is now full of noobs and the epeen who believe Perma cheese is the only thing to play. But when it's all about the grind, what do we expect

FengShuiDove

FengShuiDove

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Trinity of the Ascended [ToA]

A/

15 Nov 2009 at 21:17 - 10
Yeah, it is unfortunate. However, in certain areas of the game, only optimal builds really function well, especially in PUGs. Believe me, I'm a big fan of all that Assassins can do, but you have to realize that for elite areas, like Slaver's Exile, "meta" builds really will be the only acceptable bars. If you want to do it balanced, you'll have to go with guild/alliance folks.

The reason: most PUG people are a stupendous failure, and either run terrible bars played poorly or good bars... played poorly. If you're consistently getting requests for perma on normal missions, however, then I totally sympathize. Nobody needs a tank for Gyala Hatchery, and scythe/dagger DPS will be so much more effective than a slow tank-n-spank team comp.

Xiner

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2009

the Netherlands

Mo/

15 Nov 2009 at 21:46 - 11
About Slavers' Exile. Some people told me that dungeon is impossible if you have an Assassin (with just a normal build, so NO perma) and a Warrior. So that it would be only possible if you have a perma sin.

But I'm sure AreaNet didn't make Slavers' Exile for perma sin only. So why are people yelling at me it's only possible with a perma sin. I mean can't a Warrior just tank and an Assassin do DPS with dagger/scythe?

I just want to play an Assassin as an Assassin... even if I play them with PUGs.

LunchboxOctober

LunchboxOctober

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2008

Canada, eh

The Unsound Souls [Soul]

W/

15 Nov 2009 at 21:55 - 12
It is a sad state of affairs that people don't make groups for duncan, the whole experience is fun and can be completed in around 2 hours. You don't need a perma sin for any of it. I personally compare it to Gradius - it's long, hard battle to get through to Duncan, but he's pretty easy.

If you actually want to go through the dungeon and duke it out with them feel free to hit me up in game dude, Lunchbox October.

Covah

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Ontario, Canada

Catching Jellyfish With [소N트T ]

Me/Rt

15 Nov 2009 at 22:05 - 13
Going to umbral grotto on a sin and LFG is like going to Doomlore and LFG as a monk. Those towns are for dungeon running etc. The slavers bounty can be run fast on a perma so thats why the ground was looking for one.

Also for VSF (voltaic Spear Farm) the perma runs to the end of the level, gets the boss and then drags to the wall for the team to kill. Thats why they were yelling at you.

Skye Marin

Skye Marin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

E/A

15 Nov 2009 at 22:52 - 14
Some players just want to be as efficient as possible. Some players are impatient asses. The Venn diagram for these two groups very nearly overlap.

Now that you know what they wanted, you won't make the same mistake. Either you'll avoid those groups, or you'll run the run they were planning from the start.

mage767

mage767

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

LOVE

Me/E

15 Nov 2009 at 23:02 - 15
If you want to do Slavers NM, I would be happy to join. My only condition is that you run a full DPS build (scythe based or dagger based) on your sin and go /W to benefit from save yourselves.

If you want to fight like a man, you can fight alongside me. PM me for details.

_Nihilist_

_Nihilist_

Will Bull's Strike for $!

Join Date: Apr 2006

Isle of the Dead

16 Nov 2009 at 00:44 - 16
Unfortunately, Xiner, PUGs don't generally care what each individual player has in mind to do, they are more likely trying to finish something, and finish it quickly, which is why they bow to the Perma-Shadow Form abuse.

Find some friends who are like-minded, and I am sure you'll be able to play your Assassin as a dagger-wielding menace rather than a broken skill-abusing PermaBot.

majikmajikmajik

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2007

SATown~Tx

Guild Hopper!

R/

16 Nov 2009 at 01:43 - 17
this is the sad state of this game, when you NEED to be something in order to get into a potentaly good team.

its even sadder when a game allows you to invincacheese/run/tankNspank your way thru what should be a team based elite area.

what happened to balancedway? where is the challenge!?

SF is as worse as escape being nerfed lol.(thats imo)

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

16 Nov 2009 at 01:47 - 18
The problem is your group are n00bs.
Normal people don't expect you to be a permasin AND run something for them unless you state so.

Perfected Shadow

Perfected Shadow

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Zul'Aman

Umes Uranger U[bot]

16 Nov 2009 at 01:50 - 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiner
About Slavers' Exile. Some people told me that dungeon is impossible if you have an Assassin (with just a normal build, so NO perma) and a Warrior. So that it would be only possible if you have a perma sin. You can do it with H/H (no perma) in HM if you've got patience with pulling. So no, even without perma, it's not impossible.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

16 Nov 2009 at 01:59 - 20
My group that did the last Slaver part for the zaishen bounty had 2 sins with SY and my SoH enchants on them. We did well.

Eragon Zarroc

Eragon Zarroc

Atra estern?? ono thelduin

Join Date: Jan 2008

Madness Incarnate

[Duo]

W/P

16 Nov 2009 at 04:42 - 21
pugs usually run with strict cookie cutter builds for easier formation. slaver's isn't the best type thing to be pugging. better off trying it with a few close friends, preferably some experienced with it, if u want to play as a normal sin. pugging these days to get stuff done is pretty much a joke in most situations, lol. few real people + heros tends to be better than full team of 8 real peeps ;-)

KageNoShi

KageNoShi

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2009

In the shadows.

[SIGH]

A/

18 Nov 2009 at 01:10 - 22
Xiner which of the 5 sub-dungeons in Slaver's were you trying to do by chance?

Edit: Oh nvm it was Forgewight 3 days ago...shows how much I pay attention to the Zaishen quests.

Xiner

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2009

the Netherlands

Mo/

20 Nov 2009 at 18:53 - 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by KageNoShi View Post
Xiner which of the 5 sub-dungeons in Slaver's were you trying to do by chance?

Edit: Oh nvm it was Forgewight 3 days ago...shows how much I pay attention to the Zaishen quests. Ye that was the one... I joined a party, I expected to be a tank or something. So they asked me to take running skills and run to Slavers' Exile. But when we were in Forgewith they asked me to run the whole thing...

Maybe offtopic: where would I find some useful builds to just play PvE and dungeons. For example HM missions etc. Or can anyone post some builds here? PvXwiki gives some builds with like 6 optionals.... Of course without Shadow form. xD

JimmyNeutron

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

20 Nov 2009 at 19:17 - 24
What did you expect? A Sin isn't good for anything other than Perma.

Monk = Heal or get kick
Sin = Perma or get kick

Try playing Monk as a Smiter on something other than VSF and everyone will call you a noob( and I'm proud to say I'm a Noob4Life and LOVING IT!!! )

Remember this though: Team needs Perma and Monk more than anything else. Just look at how hard it is to get a Perma in Umbral. Don't like someone, just say "Kick that ahole <name> or I'm leaving. "

Works for Monks too when there is a shortage in Monk healers.

Works for me!!! LOL!!!! <Dr. Evil's evil laughs echoes in the Chamber of Evilness> WHOOOOAAAHAHAHAHAHAH

Xiner

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2009

the Netherlands

Mo/

20 Nov 2009 at 19:27 - 25
Your pretty right about that, but a monk is specialized in healing. So Healing prayers, Protection prayers and divine favor are all ment for healing. Smiting Prayers is made to give a monk something to do damage. ^^
Shadow Form is just ONE skill. :P So that means that loads of the regular Assassin skills are useful too. If an Assassin is just for SF, why would it then have more skills? Shadow Form isn't the Assassin thingy, if you know what I mean... I always thought an Assassin must show like some Ninja-guy which does loads of damage... :P

Slasher of Darkness

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2008

Lots of places~

D/

20 Nov 2009 at 20:03 - 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyNeutron View Post
What did you expect? A Sin isn't good for anything other than Perma. Lolz, don't listen to this, sins IMO are the best melee damage dealers, just slap SoH and Judge's Insight + Splinter Weapon and your normal MS/DB or Critscythe bar on and ur a walking machine of damage.

Red Intensity

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2009

Death's waiting room

Rt/

21 Nov 2009 at 01:32 - 27
I understand the OP's pain. It's basically why I do just about everything short of Eternal Grove or an elite area that disallows henchies alone with my sin. Or I bring a friend for especially tough dungeons, and have him spam GDW while one of my heroes packs SoH and I pack Locust's Fury/SY!/EBSoH/an IAS and a few cover enchantments to chip away health quickly (beat 4/5 of Slavers' like that).

My advice (like many others'): Avoid those other guys that only see you as a perma. Or a runner (try being a sin in Elona Reach on a busy day and you'd be bombarded with questions about running the mision). Just be an assassin like you were before.

Note: And as much as I hate the majority of the people of the GW communities, I'd have to agree with them to some point.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

21 Nov 2009 at 09:14 - 28
I pug alot of dungeons. It's more entertaining as a support roler. We use assassins with daggers/SY spamming all the time, and it's alot more useful than Shadow Form. We have higher DPS, and get done alot faster, killing alot more. We have hax-prot builds so there's no pressure when all the physicals run into the mob.

Preparing a PuG team for anything takes about 30 minutes, if done properly.

Quote:
Maybe offtopic: where would I find some useful builds to just play PvE and dungeons. For example HM missions etc. Or can anyone post some builds here? PvXwiki gives some builds with like 6 optionals.... Of course without Shadow form. xD Well, you can run an SY spammer. Which is generally 3 fast-casting chains.

Jagged strike, Fox Fangs, Death Blossom and Mobius. SY, and an IAS. The rest is optional. If you use essence bring Drunken Master, regardless of soberness, and Critical Agility if you have no essence.

Malician

Oak Ridge Boys Fan

Join Date: Jun 2007

E/P

21 Nov 2009 at 23:40 - 29
It's probably harder to form a group as an assassin, because you need healers. I'd be happy to do some stuff with you, though. I run as a healer and it doesn't even take 30 minutes to form a group. I just add another healer (rit/monk/ele, I'm not picky) and a bunch of W/D/A/P. Ask W/D/A to ping build; get them to drop defy pain / endure pain / shadowform / way of the master / etcetc until they're pure damage. Kick if they won't. Repeat until I get some good physicals and go!

athariel

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2009

E/A

22 Nov 2009 at 09:11 - 30
haha you guys are so ironic, first you say that pugs are crap because they force you to run a specific skill, then you say to run balancedway with SY! :P

Malician

Oak Ridge Boys Fan

Join Date: Jun 2007

E/P

22 Nov 2009 at 09:43 - 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by athariel View Post
haha you guys are so ironic, first you say that pugs are crap because they force you to run a specific skill, then you say to run balancedway with SY! :P PUGs are crap because they force you to run a *boring* specific skill. Waiting for an SF sin to get aggro and then suicide nuking and hoping he doesn't lose it is boring (to me) which is why I play differently.

That said, I'm not really too particular about the build / whether SY is present as long as the physical is loaded with damage. Others can and do differ.

JimmyNeutron

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

22 Nov 2009 at 17:12 - 32
Like I said, play a Perma and go to Umbral Grotto and start getting people KICK out of group for some fun:

Me: Kick that ahole <name>, otherwsie, GL finding another Perma.
GL(Group Leader): Why?
Me: He scammed me on a run before.
GL: Ok. Bye <name>

LOL!!!!!

This is how you pay back for people always wanting Perma. POWER TO THE PERMAs!!!! Rock the Cradle of Love!!!

NOTE: Make it easier on GL and choose a RoJ. They are easily replaceable or choose another profession if there are a lot of them. Sometimes, I see 4 FS looking for a team and than I choose a FS for the kick.

N1ghtstalker

N1ghtstalker

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2007

E/

22 Nov 2009 at 17:24 - 33
anet should make the damn elite area's easier
uw is nearly impossible without having a perma

Ghost Dog

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2008

W/

22 Nov 2009 at 17:39 - 34
Game is a joke now.

Full of console fags abusing this shit and I don't see it changing.

Who here remembers doing cartography when the mobs actually attacked you, permas don't.

Permas say it doesn't effect our game when they RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO easy mode, well except the fact every good skin I get from the Z chest or any elite area is now worthless, pugs don't exist and the HoM is nothing more than a "how far did you walk and press two buttons" monument.

That's fine though, when GW2 comes and there is no invincibility these RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs will rage quit and call the game bad.

_Nihilist_

_Nihilist_

Will Bull's Strike for $!

Join Date: Apr 2006

Isle of the Dead

23 Nov 2009 at 16:05 - 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker View Post
anet should make the damn elite area's easier
uw is nearly impossible without having a perma This kind of thinking is really... backwards... imho. If it's an Elite Area, why shouldn't it be more difficult than other areas of the game?

Back on topic:

People that expect Assassins to run PermaSF aren't going to change their expectations: they want/need a Perma so that is what they are going to use. If you can't/won't run Perma, they aren't going to include you in their party. The only options you really have available to you are to A)start a group of your own or B)join a Guild/Alliance that doesn't insist that Assassins on all of their Elite Area trips run Perma, it's that simple.

Nerf Me Haha

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2009

Dyslexic Tendencies [SpAz]

W/

24 Nov 2009 at 16:15 - 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiner View Post
About Slavers' Exile. Some people told me that dungeon is impossible if you have an Assassin (with just a normal build, so NO perma). Whoever told you that has no idea what he's talking about.
I did more then half of this dungeon (tho in NM) with me playing a non-perma assassin+3sabway necs and a friend playing a warrior +3discords.
It was so easy we laughed, no cons, no wipes, no problems.
I'm sure we could finish it in HM as well if we had more info about what is ahead of us (so we went NM, because going with normal builds into elite dungeon HM is bad).

So here's my piece of advice:
Find a guild, and showoff - that pve isn't just perma sin

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

24 Nov 2009 at 22:38 - 37
I kick any perma sins in my party. I also kick any other class that's trying to tank.

ProTip: Assassins deal excellent damage. Tanking is shit - an MS/DB spammer helps kill stuff much faster.

bj91x

bj91x

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

25 Nov 2009 at 09:43 - 38
I've never encountered this problem on my A, personally. I've done quite a few Zaishen Missions with PUG and nobody has ever asked me to bring SF.

I did encounter one instance last night where the party leader was just repeatedly and rudely demanding gimmick builds. He kept using words like perma sin, sabway, imbagon, etc... I found it kind of odd that somebody would rely so much on gimmick stuff for simple HM missions. Not only that, our party leader had quite the attitude and the group was arguing for quite a while. We had a full team but didn't start the actual mission for several minutes. I was doubtful that this group will be able to beat the mission. Surely enough, we failed. The group communication and synergy was terrible with everyone doing their own thing. Only 2 of our DPS attacked the enemy healer, resulting in fights that took forever. There was constant argument, mostly stemming from the party leader.

What I learned from this is that if somebody is so terrible at the game that they're rudely demanding gimmick builds for simple HM missions, don't play with them. Find another group with players that know what they're doing and are not rude. Me personally, I don't even ask people to ping builds. I just need people to tell me what their role is so that we have 2 healers/prots and rest doing some sort of damage. The only time I ask people to ping is if I think we may run similar builds that don't stack (example, Rt's using same spirits). Rarely do I encounter players so terrible that our entire group doesn't have enough DPS to finish a HM mission efficiently, or our healers are so terrible that they can't heal the group well enough without constant wipes.

And hey, on the rare occasion that I encounter rude players from multiple groups that want to go with gimmick builds, I can just go with h/h with whatever random builds I want to bring and roll through the mission while those rude players are still in the town LFGing.

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

25 Nov 2009 at 10:22 - 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by bj91x View Post
What I learned from this is that if somebody is so terrible at the game that they're rudely demanding gimmick builds for simple HM missions, don't play with them. Find another group with players that know what they're doing and are not rude. Me personally, I don't even ask people to ping builds.
Thats true , so many ppl lack knowledge and just use the only gimmicks they know for EVERYTHING and if you dont use them ( because they are not needed and will only save .... 1-5mins ) they enrage "you are a noob" "kick him" bla bla bla.
Chest run ? perma , Aurora Glade ? perma , Killing Fenrir HM ? Discordway+Apcaller , regular quest between missions ? perma+roj+imbagon !. Its good to be confident but dont trust ppl anymore so i always ask to ping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bj91x View Post
The only time I ask people to ping is if I think we may run similar builds that don't stack (example, Rt's using same spirits). Rarely do I encounter players so terrible that our entire group doesn't have enough DPS to finish a HM mission efficiently, or our healers are so terrible that they can't heal the group well enough without constant wipes. Well i wish i had your luck , 90% of the times i get into pugs theres always 2-3 clueless ppl / rubbish builds / pointless gimmicks users / unskilled players that ruin a 10m HM ZQ .

dyln

dyln

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: May 2006

Ohio

Jackals Of Orr (JakL)

W/

26 Nov 2009 at 08:32 - 40
I agree for the most part but have to say, that vsf farming is serious business when it comes to umbra grotto, easy leveling for rep points & gold drops, you will only find in most days party's forming up for this either asking for bips, roj, fs & perma's unless you have this build your pretty much useless for the team. But if I read your issue correctly you were trying to do the 4 bosses prior to duncan and when you pinged your perma build they thought you were going to perma for them. I've run my sin a few time to pick up Justicar Thomas as either a cryer (oldway) or roj (newway) with no issue other than having to up my energy bar to 50+ (armor swaps). I actually came to this string looking how to perma as I only join groups when I am being lazy and not H/H the dungeon/explorable area. But your going to find the attitude in any game you play being expected to play the build your running. But I am getting off track just fyi "umbra is a monk sin town for vsf" Tombs "ranger & monk (now sin (perma) Doomlore "run town u need a dungeon stick around someone will be spamming the run sooner or later (cof being the big money run for gold drops & maxing out vanguard & delve reps) With the big death to ursan form sifhala has died out same with malyx elite mission as everyone could run ursan and keep up. The point I am making is sorry you ran into some goofs but they are in every town ,,every pvp area ,, every where take it with a grain of salt play your way not thiers but when you ping a build no how to play it & what is expected if not your just asking for the verbal abuse. I've been playing over 4years plus with this game exclusive and still don't know all of it thats what I love about it ,, something new everytime a nerf comes or an update or someone figures out an awesome build, I now see that sins are now being respected do to the perma aspect about them when they first came in the game with factions omg total dis. after grinding my way thru faction I parked her and just now dusting her off (my sin) and playing her as now you can get into a party with 2 or more sins without all the bs that went with it on factions release, but like in any class u have good players & sucky players So point is don't dis the skill dis the players behind the charc as dis'n the skill gets it nerf'd like ursan with sf nerfed the monks again rule the farming now its at least almost a fair farming field although ele's got a town with rata for raptors. So with that I do wish you better days & good hunting and a happy Thanksgivings day. 8)