The problem with elite areas as they stand currently is that they only appeal to the hardcore "elite" players of Guild Wars. Many people have forgotten that the majority of Guild Wars players are casual, because that was Guild Wars original target audience, was it not? But elite areas only attract the elite players, which is the community that is the most likely to use speed clears and gimmicks and in turn, harming the economy. That is because the rewards from the Elite areas are way above the head of the casual player. I remember when I first realized Obsidian armor could cost over a million gold. That price was way over my head as a casual player. The most money I had ever had at once was 100 platinum. The rewards from the elite areas only have use to the group of hardcore players, which is also the group that will devise speed clears and gimmick team builds. Remember Sorrow's Furnace? The loot from Sorrow's actually had use to the casual player. Those greens, while expensive, could be easily obtained by a casual player in a balanced group. And there were also very few gimmicks in Sorrow's furnace. And that green was also useful to that player. I propose a few ideas that will deter the elite "farmers" from elite missions while attracting casual players.
Tone down the difficulty of some elite missions
Some of the missions like Domain of Anguish and the Underworld are ridiculously difficult for a balanced group. I understand A-Net did this to make farming harder, but in the process, they killed any chance of a balanced group succeeding. I know elite missions are supposed to be, well elite, but having lvl 30 mobs of 20 just encourages gimmicks.
Improve the enemy AI and make the aggro bubble slightly larger than the casting bubble.
The enemy AI as it stands now is, quite frankly, terrible. I think the AI should be able to respond and counter some common human builds. For example, if they realize they are doing little damage to a target they are attacking currently whether it be due do armor boosts or blocks, I think the AI should switch targets. Or maybe, if they realize there is an imbagon spamming "Save Yourselves" the AI should try to take down that target first (which they should be doing now, but for some reason don't). This is why I think the aggro bubble should be slightly larger to discourage tank and spank gimmicks like FOCway.
Make all weapons inscribable, however, make it so the only way to get inscriptions and weapon mods is from elite areas
This encourages the casual player to actually attempt an elite area to get loot that is actually of use to them. Ectos and shards mean nothing to a player that doesn't want elite armor. I think with the changes mentioned above and this one, more people will be encouraged to try elite areas with a non gimmick team.
My suggestions in making elite areas appeal to the casual player
ammad2006
TaggSilar
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Originally Posted by ammad2006
Tone down the difficulty of some elite missions Some of the missions like Domain of Anguish and the Underworld are ridiculously difficult for a balanced group. I understand A-Net did this to make farming harder, but in the process, they killed any chance of a balanced group succeeding. I know elite missions are supposed to be, well elite, but having lvl 30 mobs of 20 just encourages gimmicks. Improve the enemy AI and make the aggro bubble slightly larger than the casting bubble. The enemy AI as it stands now is, quite frankly, terrible. I think the AI should be able to respond and counter some common human builds. For example, if they realize they are doing little damage to a target they are attacking currently whether it be due do armor boosts or blocks, I think the AI should switch targets. Or maybe, if they realize there is an imbagon spamming "Save Yourselves" the AI should try to take down that target first (which they should be doing now, but for some reason don't). This is why I think the aggro bubble should be slightly larger to discourage tank and spank gimmicks like FOCway. Make all weapons inscribable, however, make it so the only way to get inscriptions and weapon mods is from elite areas This encourages the casual player to actually attempt an elite area to get loot that is actually of use to them. Ectos and shards mean nothing to a player that doesn't want elite armor. I think with the changes mentioned above and this one, more people will be encouraged to try elite areas with a non gimmick team. |
Improving AI intelligence is probably far too much for A-Net to handle at the moment. Plus it would most likely make monks the primary targets, thus having them completely stacked with enemies, overwhelmed, and killed within seconds.
To make all mods and inscriptions only available to elite areas is far too extreme. This makes it even much harder for casual players to succeed because as much as some people won't like it, there will always be gimmick builds. PUGS that form for elite areas are most likely destined to fail and lets face it, quite a few alliances can't field enough members to form an organized team. Not to mention prices on inscriptions and mods would probably skyrocket.
MagmaRed
Elite areas already provide inscribable weapons - from completion and the reward chest. Restricting inscription slots to weapons in elite areas only goes against what you are wanting to do - open it up to CASUAL players. Making things easier will make farmers able to get more, faster, which is also going against what you want. Sorrows ALWAYS had gimmicks. Keg/Gear tanking was used extensively until Factions was released and Rits got item spells that had Anet change the monster AI. Even without the keg/gear trick, people still used 1 tank, 1 bonder, 1 healer, 1 MM, 1 SS, and 3 nukers for a long time. Then it switched to BP teams. Gimmicks have been there since it opened.
AI improvement would be nice, but only if they also do so for heroes, hench, and NPCs. However, I don't forsee that as an easy task, nor a likely one to see happen.
AI improvement would be nice, but only if they also do so for heroes, hench, and NPCs. However, I don't forsee that as an easy task, nor a likely one to see happen.
Shayne Hawke
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Originally Posted by ammad2006
The problem with elite areas as they stand currently is that they only appeal to the hardcore "elite" players of Guild Wars.
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| Tone down the difficulty of some elite missions |
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| Improve the enemy AI |
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| and make the aggro bubble slightly larger than the casting bubble. |
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| Make all weapons inscribable, however, make it so the only way to get inscriptions and weapon mods is from elite areas |
Zahr Dalsk
Just make it so we can use full hero parties, bam, done, fixed.
draxynnic
Even being able to bring henchmen in would help - the chance of succeeding completely might be slim, but it would give people who haven't had a chance to try the area an opportunity to familiarise themselves a bit before looking to join a party.
Incidentally, ectos and shards do have value for the casual player - if you don't intend to ever go for the armour, you can sell them.
Incidentally, ectos and shards do have value for the casual player - if you don't intend to ever go for the armour, you can sell them.
KZaske
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Originally Posted by ammad2006
The problem with elite areas as they stand currently is that they only appeal to the hardcore "elite" players of Guild Wars. ...snip...
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Not signed, no way no how.
Shrike942
/not signed
I wouldn't say I'm an "elite" player but I am certainly not casual. I occasionally enjoy doing an elite mission though even with a PUG. ;D
I wouldn't say I'm an "elite" player but I am certainly not casual. I occasionally enjoy doing an elite mission though even with a PUG. ;D
Cuilan
I think they should do the opposite. Make FoW and UW painfully hard for any monk, rit, sin, or dervish to farm or speed clear it.
Killerminds
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Elite (occasionally spelled Élite) is taken originally from the Latin, eligere, "to elect". In sociology as in general usage, the elite is a relatively small dominant group within a large society, having a privileged status perceived as being envied by others of a lower line of order
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Pauli
@ OP
First of all, I'm very very very casual for some time, and the last thing I'm having problems with is completing all kinds of PvE content.
PvE content like the DoA, for example, was always about specific builds working, and the job is always done in a fixed way. Its because the monsters act in a scripted (very very predictable) way. In short, it PvE.
The content is extremely easy when its being completed in the well known ways. What other way is there to try to raise the difficulty bar in PvE? AI is AI. Its artificial, its scripted, predicted and players will always find builds that work best against the monsters. You want to lower the level so you can have it in carious ways, which makes it as easy as any game tutorial, or easy mode (anything that's not hard mode). Easy mode was defined by A-Net as being the tutorial for the hard mode. They said so quite clearly (official site).
I agree, however, about making every weapon inscribable and enlarging the monsters' aggro zone ("bubble").
Its not even about Hardcore(/elite/whatever) vs casuals. Every casual player is able to complete that content, and very easily too. The builds are well known, and the way you should act is also well known. All you need to do is use those builds in the scripted way you were told and... voila. Dont you want to do that? Dont play there. Its the only thing that makes those areas different than playing the campaign at normal mode.
First of all, I'm very very very casual for some time, and the last thing I'm having problems with is completing all kinds of PvE content.
PvE content like the DoA, for example, was always about specific builds working, and the job is always done in a fixed way. Its because the monsters act in a scripted (very very predictable) way. In short, it PvE.
The content is extremely easy when its being completed in the well known ways. What other way is there to try to raise the difficulty bar in PvE? AI is AI. Its artificial, its scripted, predicted and players will always find builds that work best against the monsters. You want to lower the level so you can have it in carious ways, which makes it as easy as any game tutorial, or easy mode (anything that's not hard mode). Easy mode was defined by A-Net as being the tutorial for the hard mode. They said so quite clearly (official site).
I agree, however, about making every weapon inscribable and enlarging the monsters' aggro zone ("bubble").
Its not even about Hardcore(/elite/whatever) vs casuals. Every casual player is able to complete that content, and very easily too. The builds are well known, and the way you should act is also well known. All you need to do is use those builds in the scripted way you were told and... voila. Dont you want to do that? Dont play there. Its the only thing that makes those areas different than playing the campaign at normal mode.
iTwilight
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Originally Posted by ammad2006
The problem with elite areas as they stand currently is that they only appeal to the hardcore "elite" players of Guild Wars. Many people have forgotten that the majority of Guild Wars players are casual, because that was Guild Wars original target audience, was it not? But elite areas only attract the elite players, which is the community that is the most likely to use speed clears and gimmicks and in turn, harming the economy. That is because the rewards from the Elite areas are way above the head of the casual player. I remember when I first realized Obsidian armor could cost over a million gold. That price was way over my head as a casual player. The most money I had ever had at once was 100 platinum. The rewards from the elite areas only have use to the group of hardcore players, which is also the group that will devise speed clears and gimmick team builds. Remember Sorrow's Furnace? The loot from Sorrow's actually had use to the casual player. Those greens, while expensive, could be easily obtained by a casual player in a balanced group. And there were also very few gimmicks in Sorrow's furnace. And that green was also useful to that player. I propose a few ideas that will deter the elite "farmers" from elite missions while attracting casual players.
Tone down the difficulty of some elite missions Some of the missions like Domain of Anguish and the Underworld are ridiculously difficult for a balanced group. I understand A-Net did this to make farming harder, but in the process, they killed any chance of a balanced group succeeding. I know elite missions are supposed to be, well elite, but having lvl 30 mobs of 20 just encourages gimmicks. Improve the enemy AI and make the aggro bubble slightly larger than the casting bubble. The enemy AI as it stands now is, quite frankly, terrible. I think the AI should be able to respond and counter some common human builds. For example, if they realize they are doing little damage to a target they are attacking currently whether it be due do armor boosts or blocks, I think the AI should switch targets. Or maybe, if they realize there is an imbagon spamming "Save Yourselves" the AI should try to take down that target first (which they should be doing now, but for some reason don't). This is why I think the aggro bubble should be slightly larger to discourage tank and spank gimmicks like FOCway. Make all weapons inscribable, however, make it so the only way to get inscriptions and weapon mods is from elite areas This encourages the casual player to actually attempt an elite area to get loot that is actually of use to them. Ectos and shards mean nothing to a player that doesn't want elite armor. I think with the changes mentioned above and this one, more people will be encouraged to try elite areas with a non gimmick team. |
You wish to tone down the dificulty for balanced groups by upping the AI? Thats the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Do bare in mind that, as gimmicky as Imbagon is, its called "A good use of skills". Thereby not making you invincible and there are still conters.
Imbagons are also commonly part of balanced groups, regardless of what their name stands for.
Nechrond
What? Casual players are GW's target audience? That's ridiculous. The target audience has always been more hardcore gamers. Which is why GW is a lot more difficult than, for example, WoW. And also why all the grinding in the world won't make you beat a better player in PvP.
An elite area in a game like GW SHOULD be really hard.
An elite area in a game like GW SHOULD be really hard.
kedde
Easy, the areas aren't meant to appeal to that part of the playerbase.
Either you keep on being casual, and probably too bad or with too little time, or you go more hardcore and put off more time on getting good enough and having the time to do them.
It's as simple as that.
Either you keep on being casual, and probably too bad or with too little time, or you go more hardcore and put off more time on getting good enough and having the time to do them.
It's as simple as that.
Pauli
The basic problem with what he claims is that those areas arent for casuals. This is just not true. You must take the well known builds that work well there, and use them in the scripted and well known way and.... voila. What is it that's not for casuals here? It doesnt take too long to finish any kind of PvE content, and it requires almost no skill, therefore it is for casuals. The only difference is that you cant take whatever builds or classes you want, but then again, there's the easy mode in which you can explore the world with whatever builds/classes you want.
In short: There's no reason to change those areas so that each and every build will be enough to complete them. Its the only difficulty method PvE has to offer. AI is always the same and players will learn how to use it to their favor. Always.
In short: There's no reason to change those areas so that each and every build will be enough to complete them. Its the only difficulty method PvE has to offer. AI is always the same and players will learn how to use it to their favor. Always.
Tenebrae
That suggestion is great but seeing how anet made HM ..... dont think its gonna happen.
MirkoTeran
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Originally Posted by Nechrond
The target audience has always been more hardcore gamers.
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Pugs Not Drugs
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Originally Posted by Killerminds
Wouldnt that make them not elite anymore....
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Originally Posted by Pauli
@ OP
PvE content like the DoA, for example, was always about specific builds working, and the job is always done in a fixed way. Its because the monsters act in a scripted (very very predictable) way. In short, it PvE. |
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Originally Posted by iTwilight
The 2 highlighted titles say enough.
You wish to tone down the dificulty for balanced groups by upping the AI? Thats the stupidest thing I have ever heard. |
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Originally Posted by Nechrond
An elite area in a game like GW SHOULD be really hard.
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Originally Posted by Nechrond
Which is why GW is a lot more difficult than, for example, WoW. And also why all the grinding in the world won't make you beat a better player in PvP.
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Nechrond
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Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs
Elite areas are not hard currently. They can easily be cleared easily with gimmicks.
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| That is why it appeals to casuals. Playing 10 hours a day will not make you any better than the guy who plays 1 hour a day |
MasterIceSlayer
Nothing in Guild Wars is difficult, once you figure out how to tackle it. If you mean SF sins or meta-builds are "gimmicks", who cares. I can remember the first time I went into FoW normal mode, I never thought I would finish it. Nowadays, I feel that as long as I am in a group of smart players willing to stick it out, HM is a piece of cake, almost regardless of builds. It all boils down to understanding what you are up against and being in a party that knows what they are doing. That way you know where to go, how to pull, and how to kill. So is knowing an area well, or being a savvy player, a "gimmick"?
Konker2020
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| The problem with elite areas as they stand currently is that they only appeal to the hardcore "elite" players of Guild Wars. |
Elite areas are elite, let it be...
They were intended to be more difficult than the rest of the game, get over it, they don't need to be toned down, they are fine the way that they are. When they make them physically impossible to complete without running specific builds, then they need to fix them, but I doubt that it will ever happen.
Zahr Dalsk
By the way, it's been casuals doing elite areas for a long time. Ursan groups, now SF SC groups. And before either of those, back in Nightfall, we had cookie cutter group (aka "balanced" way). All of which were groups of casuals, using mindless builds.
The issue isn't that a casual can't do these areas, it's that an H/H player can't do them.
The issue isn't that a casual can't do these areas, it's that an H/H player can't do them.
Eragon Zarroc
Elite areas are called elite areas because they are intended for elite players, not just the casual players. 
If you make the one thing that is slightly challenging compared to the rest of this game and tone it down so that it easier for people that put less time and effort into the game, what is left to challene the hard-core players? There is no such thing as "casual elite" because it is a contradiction. Either put in the time and effort to overcome elite areas or don't worry about beating them at all and remain in your casual gaming environment.
If you make the one thing that is slightly challenging compared to the rest of this game and tone it down so that it easier for people that put less time and effort into the game, what is left to challene the hard-core players? There is no such thing as "casual elite" because it is a contradiction. Either put in the time and effort to overcome elite areas or don't worry about beating them at all and remain in your casual gaming environment.
Chthon
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Originally Posted by ammad2006
Tone down the difficulty of some elite missions
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| Improve the enemy AI and make the aggro bubble slightly larger than the casting bubble. |
First, a-net doesn't have a good AI person. Significant improvement is simply never going to happen.
Second, mucking with the aggro range is going to break all sorts of stuff all over the game. Pulling won't work. Quest NPC's will get killed before you can reach them. Mobs you are supposed to avoid will become unavoidable. It's a terrible idea.
Now, what seems to really be bothering you is tank-n-spank. Well, there's better fixes for that:
1. Nerf perma.
2. Two small AI changes: First, AI includes for target consideration things that recently did damage to them within 1.5 aggro bubbles range. Second, when selecting its target, AI gives no weight for proximity or current-target-ness to a potential target that it cannot damage.
(For those who don't understand how the AI targets, so didn't understand a word of that: Make the AI more likely to ignore guys it can't hurt and attack nukers camped out of range.)
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| Make all weapons inscribable, however, make it so the only way to get inscriptions and weapon mods is from elite areas |
Were you around back in Prophecies when any perfect-modded item with a non-crafter/collector skins cost an arm and a leg? Do you really want to go back to that?
Pauli
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Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs
And that is the problem. Having "elite" areas like that just promotes gimmicks. If they monsters adapted and responded to common builds, the elite areas would be much harder.
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Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by Chthon
Were you around back in Prophecies when any perfect-modded item with a non-crafter/collector skins cost an arm and a leg? Do you really want to go back to that?
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Nearly all of them are very wealthy, have played since beginning, are very nostalgic, think that sort of situation is a good thing, and think Prophecies wasn't shit.
HawkofStorms
Hehe true that Zahr. /reminisce
*sigh*, back to reality
The solution proposed with weapon mods no longer dropping wouldn't even work. Its not like you could "get rid of" all the millions of weapon mods people already have. You can't force a change like that retroactively and expect it to have a change on the market.
Example, when people's existing armor got upgraded with the release of Nightfall and everybody got free insignas on their armor, the market and demand didn't really get affected that much since everybody was on a level playing field.
*sigh*, back to reality
The solution proposed with weapon mods no longer dropping wouldn't even work. Its not like you could "get rid of" all the millions of weapon mods people already have. You can't force a change like that retroactively and expect it to have a change on the market.
Example, when people's existing armor got upgraded with the release of Nightfall and everybody got free insignas on their armor, the market and demand didn't really get affected that much since everybody was on a level playing field.
Arduin
The more I read people's writings about 'casual players' the more the definition seems to shift from a person who just can't spent 3 hrs a day on this game, to a somewhat challenged person who is in need of extensive help to be able to play the game and who needs to be given every achievement without exerting themselves too much.
The Drunkard
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Originally Posted by ammad2006
Tone down the difficulty of some elite missions
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Originally Posted by ammad2006
Improve the enemy AI and make the aggro bubble slightly larger than the casting bubble.
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Originally Posted by ammad2006
Make all weapons inscribable, however, make it so the only way to get one,
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Aljasha
first, get rid of monster and overpowered pve skills.
second, make all mob teams use synergies.
third, enhance mob ai to work as a team.
fourth, introduce "easy mode", which actually does NOT decrease the difficulty but reduce the "room count" and therefore time-investment.
fifth, reduce the chance to get "gosu" equipment from "easy mode"-chests.
second, make all mob teams use synergies.
third, enhance mob ai to work as a team.
fourth, introduce "easy mode", which actually does NOT decrease the difficulty but reduce the "room count" and therefore time-investment.
fifth, reduce the chance to get "gosu" equipment from "easy mode"-chests.
Tenebrae
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Originally Posted by Aljasha
fourth, introduce "easy mode", which actually does NOT decrease the difficulty but reduce the "room count" and therefore time-investment.
fifth, reduce the chance to get "gosu" equipment from "easy mode"-chests. |
Pandora's box
The only thing needed for causual players is to make all areas accessable by a team of hero/henchmen. There are enough hero/hench teambuilds posted to give every causual player a fair change in every Elite map. And with the dropping amount of players around this would also be a decent soltion for everyone who does not want to wait for experienced players to form a team. 
MithranArkanere
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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
[...]
Nerf junk like Shadow Form, 600/Smite, and Cryway first. [...] |
It doesn't matter the changes you made, if you don't have a look at gimmicks.
I have only 2 main reasons for not having done. SoO, Deep, Underworld, Duncan and Fissure of Woe.
One of them is time. I don't have much time lately, and some of them take more than 3 hours if you don't go SC.
Time is not a problem for Duncan or Anguish, you can make each mission separately. And for Deep and Urgoz, it never takes much more than 2 hours.
But in the Underworld, the steps are not saved, and you have to make all of them in one go. That may take more than 4 hours if you go "safer than sorry"·
If they added a way to save progress, then I could make it without SC.
The other reason is refusing to go SC. I've yet to see a team for SoO HM that is not asking for a full team of assassins. And the only non-assassins I know that have the book entry joined as leechers in assassins teams that let them in.
I don't care how easy it would be like that. I want to do it myself, not follow a bunch of assassins with obsidian armors and chaos globes. They all look the same too me and creep the hell out of me.
Tenebrae
Well they didnt nerf the gimmicks wich takes X time , i doubt they do something about all elite areas wich would take 10X time.