In the spirit of the other thread about UW, this one tackles the problem directly.
I'll just be blunt and direct with the problem:
When you die in UW, it is always the npcs or reaper who die first and have the party booted. This is extremely annoying when doing 4H right before fighting Dhuum and the reaper gets spiked faster than the monks can heal.
This happens with way too many quests and not just 4H though. Too many quests require protecting something, and if even one of them dies, you're booted.
They aren't even marked as allies either. So making things worse, it's a pain in the ass to heal them too in the heat of the battle.
This is a flaw with Underworld since it happens so much to the point of annoyance.
So in short, I'll just say that UW needs either a tweak of npcs and enemy movement to make things more fair, or to have some of them auto revive, such as the reaper.
It is elite for a reason. With Aatxes hitting 300, I can completely understand how it is elite. But there is a line between challenging and unfair, to even just plain frustrating.
If you're going to be the typical "It's called elite for a reason", I would like to request you delve into the game design reasons why something like UW is plausible. Especially now with the additions of Dhuum and the skeletons.
The npcs die WAY too easily.
Lower chances of being kicked from UW
Lishy
Kerwyn Nasilan
A few of the quests need to be fiddled with to make it more appealing to balanced as opposed to permawtfheadsmash.
upier
Isn't that the point?
I mean, if they'd rez - wouldn't that make the game that much easier for solo-folks?
I mean, if they'd rez - wouldn't that make the game that much easier for solo-folks?
IronSheik
It's not that they die too easy, it's just now it's even harder for balanced groups to do UW, Especially pugs. And without a guild group, it's basically back to how it was, speed clears or nothing.
Shayne Hawke
UW should become easier, but it can't be done if speed clears are going to have the larger benefit from such a change. Stuff needs nerfed first.
majikmajikmajik
so then make certian NPCs targetable as allies during certain quests or make it just have the reaper appear as NPCs much like a Guild Leader would in GvG.
right? would make it easier, but practical as if it should already be there.
right? would make it easier, but practical as if it should already be there.
Arduin
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Originally Posted by majikmajikmajik
so then make certian NPCs targetable as allies during certain quests or make it just have the reaper appear as NPCs much like a Guild Leader would in GvG.
right? would make it easier, but practical as if it should already be there. |
Joe Fierce
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Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan
A few of the quests need to be fiddled with to make it more appealing to balanced as opposed to permawtfheadsmash.
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food for thought, silver dryders have deaths charge, making uw no longer a "core skill" area, why not give sig of disenchanment to one or two of the riders of dhuum, this will prevent sf sins from completing 4H. Then, ease back a touch on servants of grenth a bit to where it's more like it was before and they spawn in a place which doesn't require a gimmick build with 2-3 tanks, and tone down the skeletons of dhuum for the quest. These two changes will make uwsc impossible for sf gimmick heavys and will encourage balanced builds, which is what people say gw is all about.
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Joe Fierce
I can think of two specific doozies in particular.
food for thought, silver dryders have deaths charge, making uw no longer a "core skill" area, why not give sig of disenchanment to one or two of the riders of dhuum, this will prevent sf sins from completing 4H. Then, ease back a touch on servants of grenth a bit to where it's more like it was before and they spawn in a place which doesn't require a gimmick build with 2-3 tanks, and tone down the skeletons of dhuum for the quest. These two changes will make uwsc impossible for sf gimmick heavys and will encourage balanced builds, which is what people say gw is all about. |
Sig of Disenchantment was once given to Mindflay Spectres (now removed) and everybody got very upset about it.
Servents of Grenth isn't too bad. Needs some planning though.
DragonRogue
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Originally Posted by Joe Fierce
I can think of two specific doozies in particular.
food for thought, silver dryders have deaths charge, making uw no longer a "core skill" area, why not give sig of disenchanment to one or two of the riders of dhuum, this will prevent sf sins from completing 4H. Then, ease back a touch on servants of grenth a bit to where it's more like it was before and they spawn in a place which doesn't require a gimmick build with 2-3 tanks, and tone down the skeletons of dhuum for the quest. These two changes will make uwsc impossible for sf gimmick heavys and will encourage balanced builds, which is what people say gw is all about. |
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by DragonRogue
Agreed to this idea. since the mechanic of proph only skills has been eliminated with the addition of death charge,
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DragonRogue
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
Starburst is Factions too.
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Arduin
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
Sig of Disenchantment was once given to Mindflay Spectres (now removed) and everybody got very upset about it.
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Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Arduinna
Everybody? No the Perma SF Planes farmers got upset because they couldn't round up all the Spectres anymore and make ecto showers.
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1. (uncountable) Extreme exaggeration or overstatement; especially as a literary or rhetorical device.
2. (uncountable) Deliberate exaggeration.
3. (countable) An instance or example of this technique.
4. (countable, obsolete) A hyperbola.
I'm sure you can see that 4 isn't applicable.
MithranArkanere
ALL NPCs that do not appear in the party panel should auto-resurrect automatically.
If the NPC is to be protected, like the villagers in Divinity Coast or the Turtles in Gyala hatchery, then hey should appear in the party panel. If do not appear, then either they are unimportant or they must resurrect automatically when there are no enemies around.
And that goes for ALL the game, not just elite or normal missions.
If the NPC is to be protected, like the villagers in Divinity Coast or the Turtles in Gyala hatchery, then hey should appear in the party panel. If do not appear, then either they are unimportant or they must resurrect automatically when there are no enemies around.
And that goes for ALL the game, not just elite or normal missions.
Eluvatar
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
ALL NPCs that do not appear in the party panel should auto-resurrect automatically.
If the NPC is to be protected, like the villagers in Divinity Coast or the Turtles in Gyala hatchery, then hey should appear in the party panel. If do not appear, then either they are unimportant or they must resurrect automatically when there are no enemies around. And that goes for ALL the game, not just elite or normal missions. |
Shadowhaze
I would agree. It's darn frustrating when you go with a balanced team, only to have a npc die on one of the last quests and then you all get booted. There goes two hours down the drain for maybe a few ecto (depends on your luck), which isn't worth it imo if you're trying to go for drops/completion sake. Being with a group of buddies makes it more bearable, but still it's ridiculous. 
J I L T
I don't think the npcs are the problem, it's the monsters. Several quests in UW require your party to split up which isn't a bad thing in fact I like it but the quests need to be adjusted for it. In servants of grenth you have to split up now but only about 5 enemies go towards the frozen king while 30 go to the reaper. They should send an equal number of foes to each npcs.
Also the foes have really crappy builds so they just send huge numbers of them at you which is just ridiculous they should make individual foes tougher but decrease their numbers.
If they make any change allies it should just be to giving them that passive anti spike mechanic togo, mhenlo and those forgotten in foundry have.
Also the foes have really crappy builds so they just send huge numbers of them at you which is just ridiculous they should make individual foes tougher but decrease their numbers.
If they make any change allies it should just be to giving them that passive anti spike mechanic togo, mhenlo and those forgotten in foundry have.
Hyperventilate
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Originally Posted by upier
Isn't that the point?
I mean, if they'd rez - wouldn't that make the game that much easier for solo-folks? |
When a warden dies, I think you should have to visit all the previously visited wardens to revive him. That way, the incentive to keep him alive is still there, but if he died it's not the end of the world. Because who wants to backtrack through x, y and z places just to come back to right where they started?
Disable the warden teleportation to force the player(s) to manually visit each one. Lore-wise they could just say that their forces aren't strong enough to teleport you or something.
It'd still be an inconvenience, but I know that when I'm in the UW, I'd want those wardens to stay alive because going back on a hike through the previously explored areas isn't going to be too fun, just to turn around and come right back to where I was.
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by J I L T
If they make any change allies it should just be to giving them that passive anti spike mechanic togo, mhenlo and those forgotten in foundry have.
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N1ghtstalker
they should remove dhuum's rest instead
they expect us to spend hours in uw to fight an other hour resting this bastard with a possible wipe
they expect us to spend hours in uw to fight an other hour resting this bastard with a possible wipe
upier
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Originally Posted by Hyperventilate
I was discussing something similar with some friends a while back.
When a warden dies, I think you should have to visit all the previously visited wardens to revive him. That way, the incentive to keep him alive is still there, but if he died it's not the end of the world. Because who wants to backtrack through x, y and z places just to come back to right where they started? Disable the warden teleportation to force the player(s) to manually visit each one. Lore-wise they could just say that their forces aren't strong enough to teleport you or something. It'd still be an inconvenience, but I know that when I'm in the UW, I'd want those wardens to stay alive because going back on a hike through the previously explored areas isn't going to be too fun, just to turn around and come right back to where I was. |
J I L T
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
Care to describe it / link to wiki?
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Eluvatar
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Originally Posted by J I L T
I can't link it because it isn't a monster skill or anything as far as I know but I know for a fact that certain mission critical npcs have either very high damage reduction, armor or a constant protective spirit like effect. In vizunah square hard mode togo and mhenlo take way less damage from ray of judgment and never get spiked from skills like mind burn or lightning orb so I can only assume they have some sort of constant protection from damage. Anyway it would be easy to test you could go to raisu palace and let an ele starburst mhenlo and togo.
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J I L T
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Originally Posted by Eluvatar
Lol all monster skills are on wiki
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Hyperventilate
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Originally Posted by upier
Don't you think that people would then just sacrifice the Planes Reaper when it comes to the 4H and then just split and each one goes to talk to one Reaper? Sure you'll waste a few minutes - but still much easier and faster than a wipe.
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You'd still HAVE to do the quests. It's not like, "Oh, I don't feel like doing this quest, sac the reaper and we'll regroup."
upier
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Originally Posted by Hyperventilate
You'd still HAVE to do the quests. It's not like, "Oh, I don't feel like doing this quest, sac the reaper and we'll regroup."
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With the option of the NPC-rez the whole team could just do one side, completely disregard the Reaper, and then just pull or charge into the second group making what is one of the hardest quests in the game into a quest that will be hard to fail.
Maybe rework the quest in that case?
Gondrakif
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Originally Posted by upier
The issue is that now you need to do a split for the 4 Horsies, because if they get the Reaper you are a goner.
With the option of the NPC-rez the whole team could just do one side, completely disregard the Reaper, and then just pull or charge into the second group making what is one of the hardest quests in the game into a quest that will be hard to fail. Maybe rework the quest in that case? |
UnChosen
They also need to make the quests available only one at a time, or at least make a popup warning people trying to grab all of them at once, and screw the entire group over.
Definitely.
But its the pugs fault that they are not in a guild, its also their fault if their guilds/friends suck, and their fault if their good guilds doesn't have enough people, and their fault if their good guilds have enough people but not enough people want to do UW. If a good guild/friend group get into UW and the monk lags while protecting a NPC, and hours goes down the drain, its also their fault.[/sarcasm]
Two hours? More like 3-4 on average, I mean good guild balanced groups still take more than one hour before the current UWSC situation.
This is actually not too bad, but if they're going to nuke SF they better make the chest appear BEFORE dhumm appears, and leave dhumm for green item collectors to fight.
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| It is elite for a reason. With Aatxes hitting 300, I can completely understand how it is elite. But there is a line between challenging and unfair, to even just plain frustrating. |
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Originally Posted by IronSheik
It's not that they die too easy, it's just now it's even harder for balanced groups to do UW, Especially pugs. And without a guild group, it's basically back to how it was, speed clears or nothing.
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Originally Posted by Shadowhaze
I would agree. It's darn frustrating when you go with a balanced team, only to have a npc die on one of the last quests and then you all get booted. There goes two hours down the drain for maybe a few ecto (depends on your luck), which isn't worth it imo if you're trying to go for drops/completion sake. Being with a group of buddies makes it more bearable, but still it's ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker
they should remove dhuum's rest instead
they expect us to spend hours in uw to fight an other hour resting this bastard with a possible wipe |
war330
they killed SC's with UW but even balanced groups are having a tough time. i know its an elite area but that doesnt mean that 90% of pugs should fail. i agree to make either the quests or npc's a little easier in UW or at the very least make it so you don't fail if all reapers die in Dhuum fight >..>
Hyperventilate
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Originally Posted by upier
The issue is that now you need to do a split for the 4 Horsies, because if they get the Reaper you are a goner.
With the option of the NPC-rez the whole team could just do one side, completely disregard the Reaper, and then just pull or charge into the second group making what is one of the hardest quests in the game into a quest that will be hard to fail. Maybe rework the quest in that case? |
I must say I only see this quest being the biggest hitch in my idea. I'd still like it to be a difficult quest, but I can't really think of a solution. I'll have to chew on this idea for a little while.