Okay, so, everyone boohoos about sf, yes, I agree it's rather broken, could use a balance, but not obliteration, I see the potential of balancing it as a golden opportunity for something new in the game!
See it from this perspective, in this game, everything has a guaranteed counter, conditions have removals, same with hexes, there's even skills that prevent them, Spells being cast upon you have counters aswell the list goes:
SB SF OF VoS
Okay, Sf, obviously broken because it also fits into this category, Prevents all attacks from striking:
SF (mist form is KIIIINNNDA here, but attacks still hit)
So here's my suggestion, remove the anti spell aspect of SF, just leave it as a constant block of attacks. WE DON'T HAVE THIS IN THE GAME YET!
I already know what you're going to say "we'll all he needs then is an SB monk to constantly SB him" EXACTLY!!!! Two people with bars completely geared towards keeping a tank alive is so much closer to being balanced, a majority of speed clears would no longer function, and would no longer be very "speedy" as they'd require so many monks to keep all the sins up, destroying that meta, but at the same time, it could still be used for tank and spank builds and niche farming spots, keeping everyone happy, it's not nerfed into the ground, but it also no longer owns everything ever, gg.
An SF Balance that makes sense
Joe Fierce
Chocobo1
*Tears eyes out*
zelgadissan
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Joe Fierce
An SF Balance that makes sense
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Joe Fierce
I agree it's rather broken, could use a balance, but not obliteration
|
Joe Fierce
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by zelgadissan
Stopped thinking.
|
Balance is appropriate, not obliteration, unless you think the change to smiter's boon was an intelligent well thought out and perfectly balanced one, in which case, you really don't want a balanced game do you? you're just citing "balance" in your arguments against SF as an idea, but not one you want to be fulfilled, just a pretty idea.
So you'd like another skill added to the list of functionally useless skills that already exists.
To quote a great bunch of hippies: "No one's right when everyone is wrong" Buffalo Springfield.
zelgadissan
Balance does not equal invulnerability, in any sense. If you want to include Mist Form, Spell Shield, Obsidian Flesh, Spell Breaker in the category of what should be destroyed, that's fine with me too.
upier
I was thinking that it might be interesting to toy with completely removing the ability to deal damage while under it.
Joe Fierce
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by zelgadissan
Balance does not equal invulnerability, in any sense. If you want to include Mist Form, Spell Shield, Obsidian Flesh, Spell Breaker in the category of what should be destroyed, that's fine with me too.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by upier
I was thinking that it might be interesting to toy with completely removing the ability to deal damage while under it.
|
That in combination with my suggestion would be brilliant. Then it would be useful only for what it was originally intended for, tanking.
Everyone claims to want it "balanced" when all they truly want is for it to be effed into the ground, and whine, and complain, and do nothing about it, at least I'm making suggestions that would lead to the "balance" people so claim to desire.
Mason717
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Joe Fierce
a majority of speed clears would no longer function
|
upier
You can't really do a simple Obsi vs. SB vs. Mist vs. SF comparison.
You also need to look at what line that skill is in, what other conditions one must fulfil to get the full advantage of the skill, ...
I am actually for keeping the whole "every attack and spell fails". It just that by doing so, you'd need to be effectively removed out of the game. It's insane defence should be countered by it's lack of offence.
I'd say keep it for running, but completely trash it for any kind of damage dealing.
(But then again, I might be partial because I like running with SF while I do not care about killing with it.
)
You also need to look at what line that skill is in, what other conditions one must fulfil to get the full advantage of the skill, ...
I am actually for keeping the whole "every attack and spell fails". It just that by doing so, you'd need to be effectively removed out of the game. It's insane defence should be countered by it's lack of offence.
I'd say keep it for running, but completely trash it for any kind of damage dealing.
(But then again, I might be partial because I like running with SF while I do not care about killing with it.
)
Joe Fierce
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mason717
People would just go back to OF. DoASC wouldn't be much slower if at all with RR Candy.
|
If it takes a group effort to keep someone alive to tank, it's more understandable.
drkn
set atk modifier to 0% (no dmg dealt as upier said) + some health/e degen, so that shadow form can be maintained a long time, but not infinitely without any secondary support.
droks run can be done with a dervish, so that one of the underpowered classes gets some pros, while sf still can be used to tank, just not to be out there solo / with other sins.
droks run can be done with a dervish, so that one of the underpowered classes gets some pros, while sf still can be used to tank, just not to be out there solo / with other sins.
Joe Fierce
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by drkn
set atk modifier to 0% (no dmg dealt as upier said) + some health/e degen, so that shadow form can be maintained a long time, but not infinitely without any secondary support.
droks run can be done with a dervish, so that one of the underpowered classes gets some pros, while sf still can be used to tank, just not to be out there solo / with other sins. |
subarucar
For limiting energy you could make it set you energy regen to +2 or something. To stop zealous scythes make it so you cannot attack/all attacks miss.
I like the idea of having a skill that allows another class to tank, however being invincible and still being able to deal damage is extremely OP.
I'm not sure if it's just the way I've played DoA, but the perma tanks cannot keep SF up indefinitely, meaning they must ball the group quickly, and the team must be fast in killing before SF drops. Something like this would be a good nerf for SF, however something different may be required, otherwise the game will just end up being spikeways, in fact it pretty much is.
I like the idea of having a skill that allows another class to tank, however being invincible and still being able to deal damage is extremely OP.
I'm not sure if it's just the way I've played DoA, but the perma tanks cannot keep SF up indefinitely, meaning they must ball the group quickly, and the team must be fast in killing before SF drops. Something like this would be a good nerf for SF, however something different may be required, otherwise the game will just end up being spikeways, in fact it pretty much is.
Joe Fierce
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by subarucar
For limiting energy you could make it set you energy regen to +2 or something. To stop zealous scythes make it so you cannot attack/all attacks miss.
I like the idea of having a skill that allows another class to tank, however being invincible and still being able to deal damage is extremely OP. I'm not sure if it's just the way I've played DoA, but the perma tanks cannot keep SF up indefinitely, meaning they must ball the group quickly, and the team must be fast in killing before SF drops. Something like this would be a good nerf for SF, however something different may be required, otherwise the game will just end up being spikeways, in fact it pretty much is. |
BlackSephir
Make it an Assassin Form, like dervs have. Make it a form that gives you ims and ias. No THEY CAN'T ATTACK YOU LOL bullshit.
If you want to balance something you might want to address the problem and make it balanced, not nerfed into oblivion. We have enough useless skills as it is.
If you want to balance something you might want to address the problem and make it balanced, not nerfed into oblivion. We have enough useless skills as it is.
Tenebrae
Make it like a shadow. For Z seconds You deal X% less damage , recieve Y less damage , cant be target of foe spells , enchants and you recieve -75% less healing. Could be mantained ? maybe yes , or no , thats another question ofc .
PS: X Y Z depend of shadow arts ofc .
PS: X Y Z depend of shadow arts ofc .
stanzhao
if you can use spells against shadow form, and not taking away the health loss, any foe with an enchant remover will get you down to 50 health and spank you... making it usless for 95% of the game.
you need to touch the skills around it, like deadly paradox, so that it cant be kept up constantly, hit glyph of swiftness needing points in air magic, or reduce movement speed while under shadow form so you cant 'speedclear'.
you need to touch the skills around it, like deadly paradox, so that it cant be kept up constantly, hit glyph of swiftness needing points in air magic, or reduce movement speed while under shadow form so you cant 'speedclear'.
BlueNovember
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Joe Fierce
Balance is appropriate, not obliteration, unless you think the change to smiter's boon was an intelligent well thought out and perfectly balanced one
|
Skills that shouldn't be in the game should be effectively removed from the game.
rb.widow
Your trying to nerf a skill that it used by people who dont run UWSC though, its a catch 22, you nerf it for one group who exploit its power, and screw over the honest group who dont.
They should just add random traps around the underworld that spike for 400 damage and remove all enchantments from target who triggered them. That'd make balanced teams a must.
They should just add random traps around the underworld that spike for 400 damage and remove all enchantments from target who triggered them. That'd make balanced teams a must.
DragonRogue
it was mentioned in another thread that since the addition of deaths charge to the UW, the old mechanic of keeping core only skills in the UW has been thrown out the window. This now allows for any skill in the game to be added to UW. Such as Sig of Disenchantment. Add this to a few areas thru out the UW, and SCs will be killed without upsetting the SF build as a whole. Since it is obvious that Anet doesnt want to piss off all those using SF, making them leave to play another game, and that redesigning the area to slow SCs down is the answer, then let them change the area with a few more extra wild cards.
BlackSephir
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by rb.widow
Your trying to nerf a skill that it used by people who dont run UWSC though, its a catch 22, you nerf it for one group who exploit its power, and screw over the honest group who dont.
They should just add random traps around the underworld that spike for 400 damage and remove all enchantments from target who triggered them. That'd make balanced teams a must. |
Quote:
| Skills that shouldn't be in the game should be effectively removed from the game. |
Apparently some people don't get this. Those people know shit about balancing and the only things they can think of is "BUFF IT TO HEAVENS" AND "NERF IT TO OBLIVION".
gremlin
I don't have enough information to decide why and how this skill should be changed.
So I will leave that to the experts but the current builds would seem to go against what the assassin was in its infancy.
I always thought they intended the assassin to be surgical tool of the melee classes.
Never a tank but a fast moving strike and run class with the ability to disable and maybe kill one target then get out of range again.
The ability to remain in combat almost indefinitely seems against the spirit of the class.
If that's what people want then its fine by me, as long as its not compulsory
So I will leave that to the experts but the current builds would seem to go against what the assassin was in its infancy.
I always thought they intended the assassin to be surgical tool of the melee classes.
Never a tank but a fast moving strike and run class with the ability to disable and maybe kill one target then get out of range again.
The ability to remain in combat almost indefinitely seems against the spirit of the class.
If that's what people want then its fine by me, as long as its not compulsory
vamp08
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by upier
... It just that by doing so, you'd need to be effectively removed out of the game. It's insane defence should be countered by it's lack of offence.
|
For X sec. you cannot be the target of spells or attacks; You can not cast spells, skills or signets while under the effects of this enchantment. You move 33% faster.
B = tenative
Steps_Descending
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Joe Fierce
That in combination with my suggestion would be brilliant. Then it would be useful only for what it was originally intended for, tanking.
|
I tought the idea of the skill was to keep the assassin alive without allowign it to stay focused for hours. Basically to stay up long enough for a kill.
Personnally I'd go for something like that :
For 25 sec (at 16 shadowArt, that means 30 sec with enchant mod), Attack and spells against you miss. Cooldown : 60 sec.
That would mean the minimum cooldown is 30 sec, it last 30 sec. But there is a 1-2 second window while you recast it that kills you if you tank. Maybe the window should be bigger to make sure the sin die even with a monk.
And in normal gameplay it still give near total protection, just have to make sure you're away from the fight for 2-3 second once in a while.
upier
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by vamp08
Shadow Form:
For X sec. you cannot be the target of spells or attacks; You can not cast spells, skills or signets while under the effects of this enchantment. You move 33% faster. B = tenative |
For X sec. you cannot be the target of spells or attacks. While under the effects of this enchantment you can not attack nor can you cast spells OUTSIDE of SF.
And then, keep the ability to keep it up permanently alive.
BlackSephir
About as useful as Defy Pain.
Which means FA would be full of SF sins.
Which means FA would be full of SF sins.
upier
I thought we were talking about a PvE-only change?
Icy The Mage
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by subarucar
For limiting energy you could make it set you energy regen to +2 or something. To stop zealous scythes make it so you cannot attack/all attacks miss.
I like the idea of having a skill that allows another class to tank, however being invincible and still being able to deal damage is extremely OP. I'm not sure if it's just the way I've played DoA, but the perma tanks cannot keep SF up indefinitely, meaning they must ball the group quickly, and the team must be fast in killing before SF drops. Something like this would be a good nerf for SF, however something different may be required, otherwise the game will just end up being spikeways, in fact it pretty much is. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Steps_Descending
Was it indeed the original point of the skill? Do we really want it to be usable to tank? Do you really like to have a completely invincible tank in a game? (OK not 100% invincible, but the closest we have to invincibility)
I tought the idea of the skill was to keep the assassin alive without allowign it to stay focused for hours. Basically to stay up long enough for a kill. Personnally I'd go for something like that : For 25 sec (at 16 shadowArt, that means 30 sec with enchant mod), Attack and spells against you miss. Cooldown : 60 sec. That would mean the minimum cooldown is 30 sec, it last 30 sec. But there is a 1-2 second window while you recast it that kills you if you tank. Maybe the window should be bigger to make sure the sin die even with a monk. And in normal gameplay it still give near total protection, just have to make sure you're away from the fight for 2-3 second once in a while. |
Eragon Zarroc
just quit >_< please and thank you.
Chthon
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by zelgadissan
Balance does not equal invulnerability, in any sense. If you want to include Mist Form, Spell Shield, Obsidian Flesh, Spell Breaker in the category of what should be destroyed, that's fine with me too.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by upier
I was thinking that it might be interesting to toy with completely removing the ability to deal damage while under it.
|
Steps_Descending
You really want to keep ShadowTanking don't you Upier?
Who? Me? I hope not!
He... Didn't think about them.
That means we're left with 3 option if we just change the duration :
1) The gap is big enough to make impratical for farming use. Reverting it back to something close the original 22 sec. So it's impossible to farm with it, but a casual assa could use a lot of cons and get near invincicility. Which won't happen, the farmers will probably use the cons and pray the monk can keep the tank alive for 2 second while he recasts SF.
2)Accept a maintainable SF with all the tanking that comes with it.
3) Have a patch rule in the line of : "SF cannot last more than X seconds" No matter what the Shadow Art stat is, what enchant mod you have or what cons you have.
Chthon just summed it up. SF has a strong mecanic along with an upgraded version of another defensive mecanic as well as no drawbacks.
BUt hey! don't say Mist Form is a joke! I LOVE Mist Form! It's a fun skill! (and it's the only "invulnerability" skill that noone complains about. they could have made it naturally maintanable, even in PvP I don't think that would be SO gamebreaking)
I hope I did enough to make it clear I wasn't serious.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc
just quit >_< please and thank you.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by IcyFiftyFive
Therefore, at 17 (12+1+3+1 from grail of might) = 26 or 27s, which is easily maintainable with glyph and deadly, even candy corn or apples could be used so you wouldn't need glyph :P
|
That means we're left with 3 option if we just change the duration :
1) The gap is big enough to make impratical for farming use. Reverting it back to something close the original 22 sec. So it's impossible to farm with it, but a casual assa could use a lot of cons and get near invincicility. Which won't happen, the farmers will probably use the cons and pray the monk can keep the tank alive for 2 second while he recasts SF.
2)Accept a maintainable SF with all the tanking that comes with it.
3) Have a patch rule in the line of : "SF cannot last more than X seconds" No matter what the Shadow Art stat is, what enchant mod you have or what cons you have.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Chthon
I don't think I agree. The can't-be-target-of-spells mechanic is strong, but not inherently overpowered. Spell Shield and Obsidian Flesh have such nasty drawbacks that I don't find them problematic. Spell Breaker is only a problem with cons pushing its duration up higher and higher. Mist Form is a joke (and is a different mechanic anyway). The problem with SF is that its original drawback (which was so nasty it was considered a total junk skill) was essentially removed, as you can make sure it never triggers.
|
BUt hey! don't say Mist Form is a joke! I LOVE Mist Form! It's a fun skill! (and it's the only "invulnerability" skill that noone complains about. they could have made it naturally maintanable, even in PvP I don't think that would be SO gamebreaking)
I hope I did enough to make it clear I wasn't serious.
Fitz Rinley
The problem with SF is that it covers too many needs for the player base that the Dev.'s failed to satisfy in other ways. SF is important for most farming groups. Still, at least they are groups now, more than solo farmers and mass botting. If the economy in GW had ever been functional, instead of full of scammers, power mongers, elites who had full access and use of every exploit for months before it was nerfed, etc. - then trade would have been more fair and there wouldn't have been this massive reliance on min./maxed builds to farm so you can achieve game goals.
Of those I know who have left GW it is principally because the game is solely about farming. Of those who remain, they are either fascinated by the pretty pictures or consider farming to be the point of video gaming (whack-a-mole with bragging rights). It was bad about it when FoW and UW were exclusively controlled by HA. With the advent of Factions the Dev.s increased accessibility to gold, but exponentially increased the amount of farming in the game. Nightfall and Eye merely solidified this trend so that the only point to playing GW now is to farm for titles/items.
When they created a set-up with limited leveling - so that players could all be on an equivalent playing field (with equal obligations to practice) they failed to observe two other areas that would need level playing fields. One was financial success in game so that a character could readily obtain those things that made the appearance of what they played appealing. Another was leveling of skill effects so that all classes were equally functional. (I will give that this latter is very very hard to do - since min./maxers would then place the equivalent max effect skills of each class into a build nazi requirement to overpower the game and then complain because they didn't take time to enjoy it.)
SF needs to be left alone or even returned to its original functionallity until all classes are equally functional skill wise.
Of those I know who have left GW it is principally because the game is solely about farming. Of those who remain, they are either fascinated by the pretty pictures or consider farming to be the point of video gaming (whack-a-mole with bragging rights). It was bad about it when FoW and UW were exclusively controlled by HA. With the advent of Factions the Dev.s increased accessibility to gold, but exponentially increased the amount of farming in the game. Nightfall and Eye merely solidified this trend so that the only point to playing GW now is to farm for titles/items.
When they created a set-up with limited leveling - so that players could all be on an equivalent playing field (with equal obligations to practice) they failed to observe two other areas that would need level playing fields. One was financial success in game so that a character could readily obtain those things that made the appearance of what they played appealing. Another was leveling of skill effects so that all classes were equally functional. (I will give that this latter is very very hard to do - since min./maxers would then place the equivalent max effect skills of each class into a build nazi requirement to overpower the game and then complain because they didn't take time to enjoy it.)
SF needs to be left alone or even returned to its original functionallity until all classes are equally functional skill wise.
FengShuiDove
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BlueNovember
<--- Pretty much.
Skills that shouldn't be in the game should be effectively removed from the game. |
I'm beginning to think people just hate the words "Shadow" and "Form" used conjunctively.
Is the OP's idea great? Nah, not really. But I agree with the idea of changing it so that it's still usable, just not for farming. Despite the heavy opposition to this (for whatever reason) in this thread, it really is the best course of action. Leaving it the same in functionality but changing certain aspects won't be good enough -- people will find ways around anything. Nerfing it into the ground wouldn't be smart -- it's removing a skill from usefulness and limiting the abilities of the profession without expanding them elsewhere.
Don't just be a pissy pants because you hate Shadow Form as it currently is. People calling for "balance" then calling for Smiter's Boon treatment should realize just how self-contradictory that is.
upier
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Steps_Descending
You really want to keep ShadowTanking don't you Upier?
|
I wouldn't dream of wasting a perfectly good damage dealing slot for a tank.
MagmaRed
Before this gets closed or merged with one of the many other SF topics.....
Perma is the problem, not SF. I have absolutely no problem with Shadow Form at all. I do have a problem with being able to maintain it 100% of the time. Though perhaps an easy fix that wouldn't completely restrict it from being perma, but would stop its abuse for farming.... make it like VoS. Can't be the target of any spell, friendly or enemy with it on. This would allow people to use daggers/spears/scythes/bows/etc. to do damage, but would not allow them to recast until it ended. Would also prevent all skills like Zealot's Fire from working to make a damage source out of the SF tank.
Perma is the problem, not SF. I have absolutely no problem with Shadow Form at all. I do have a problem with being able to maintain it 100% of the time. Though perhaps an easy fix that wouldn't completely restrict it from being perma, but would stop its abuse for farming.... make it like VoS. Can't be the target of any spell, friendly or enemy with it on. This would allow people to use daggers/spears/scythes/bows/etc. to do damage, but would not allow them to recast until it ended. Would also prevent all skills like Zealot's Fire from working to make a damage source out of the SF tank.
Joe Fierce
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Chthon
While that would stop perma farming and speed clearing, we'd still have to endure perma tank-n-spank.
|
Bob Slydell
http://www.wiki.guildwars.com/index....&oldid=1720146
That is the only balance that can be done to SF at this point.
Seriously though...How bout make SF end after a set amount of attacks.
That is the only balance that can be done to SF at this point.
Seriously though...How bout make SF end after a set amount of attacks.
subarucar
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Chrisworld
http://www.wiki.guildwars.com/index....&oldid=1720146
That is the only balance that can be done to SF at this point. Seriously though...How bout make SF end after a set amount of attacks. |
Joe Fierce
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BlueNovember
<--- Pretty much.
Skills that shouldn't be in the game should be effectively removed from the game. |
Tenebrae
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Joe Fierce
That's still making a move more towards semi-balance than we've had in a long damned time.
|