Dhuum Heroway [theorycraft]

Me and 2 friends want to clear Underworld soon. One of them doesnt have Prophecies and the other isn't really far in any campaign other then Nightfall. That means pugging isn't really an option, because they all start in Temple of the Ages and its gonna take a long time before we get a decent pug in either Chantry or Zin Ku.

So we wanted to do it with heroes. This is what I have so far. Note: This is for NM


It's based on Spiritway, with some adjustments. I thought necro minions were going to fail because of Lava Font from the Terrorwebs
Discord would get us very far, but I read somewhere you can't put conditions on Dhuum, so Discord won't work on him.
line 2-4 are the sin's heroes and line 7-8 are the Rit's heroes.
I'm thinking about replacing the SS hero with a Barrage ranger (Barrage + GDW = <3)

Small usage notes:
Me (the sin) and the imbagon (friend #1) are gonna be spamming SY like crazy. The channelig rit (friend #2) will keep GDW on both of us as much as possible while doing his spirit spam thing. He should also keep an eye on the communing rit, cuz heroes dont use Boon of Creation very well. The spirits+the sin will be doing most of the killing, which I really hope is going to be enough.

I want to ask you if you can spot any flaws. I have some tactics in my head on how to complete the quests, but it's not like I'm a UW expert or anything.
So yeah... will this work or not?

#EDIT:
I changed the original image. I took out 1 of the Rit healers and replaced it with a Barrage Ranger. Changed the other Rit healer to an N/Rt. Changed the SS hero to a Icy Veins hero with SoH instead of JI. Lowered the amount of weapon spells to prevent them from overwriting each other. Gave the ER ele Infuse Health and some enchants to make it spamable, but I'm really not sure if that works. Changed the sin bar to a pretty stand MS/DB build.
Thanks again for all the feedback I would love some more on the new set-up

#EDIT 2: Small edit this time. Took over some elements of Ironsheik's build (thanks again). My friends couldnt rework so we had a viable frontline SY spammer, so I kept the imbagon. Changed the sin build to Flashing Blades, gave the necro Foul Feast and gave the ER ele prot spirit. Took over Iron's ranger, but instead of GftE I kept Hexbreaker Aria and filled the optional slot with volley (lack of inspiration really..). I don't know how soon we're going to be able to test this. The plan was to do it this saturday, but stuff has come up, so it's pretty unsure at the moment....

I don't trust ele heroes with er builds to be honest. Also I am gonna give you the key to making dhuum easy as a kitten. Have your friend bring earthbind. Earthbind + armor of unfeeling and using summon spirits to keep it up will make dhuum 10x easier to fight. He can be knocked down with earthbind up. So if you can have gdw up on the assassin and imbagon most of the time and attack him quickly you should be good with negating quite a bit of his damage.

I wouldn't trust earthbind on the hero even with ritual lord, I dunno it just seems like it won't be up near enough. Also disenchantment is a waste imo. Try n/rt healers (if possible) because you don't have to worry about long battles or energy management. Also hero spiteful spirit sucks cause their ai will auto ss everything your killing. So it won't be doing much damage at all unless you plan to micro almost all the time. Also put can't touch this on your imbagon to be spammed for dhuum fight. That way you won't need as many candy canes.

You are overkill on the heals/ protects. With not 1 but 2 copies of save yourselves (pretty much useless just run the imbagon and free up a slot on assassin for brawling headbutt). You shouldn't need the er protect hero which will probably fail pretty badly anyway.

Quote: Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I don't trust ele heroes with er builds to be honest. Vekk solo-healed for us through half of UW after our monk got dropped. The recent AI updates on infuse have made them pretty godly. Not as godly as a human, but it's still miles ahead of monk heroes. (Small note: put infuse on your freaking ele.)

In that vein the rit healers have some serious potential energy issues. If you don't want to rely on soul reaping and SoLS, I'd go for OoS or energy drain. (Again, recent AI updates on OoS) I'd say you can drop down to 2 healers but that can be risky with them being AIs, and it's not like you have any real monks to outdps.

4H could be a real issue. If you fight at the reaper, your chance of wipe is high simply due to the AI not proritizing healing the NPC, albeit you could just do the quest first a few times till you get lucky. You can stall with spirits on one side, but you need enough damage to kill quickly on the other, and this build is a little low on that.

Still not totally clear on the Wastes spawn pattern but it seems you can position the party to grab all aggro and just hope no chinks in your SY armor appear.

Do you really need locusts on the sin? If you are bringing 1/2 activation dagger chains, you aren't going to be autoattacking for very long...

^True that. Just use zealous daggers, Flashing Blades might be a better elite for you, also, why res? It's one time use right? Just bring another skill and have res scrolls on hand. Also, I always thought it was a waste not to give an ER prot hero Shield Gaurdian, as it can be spammed and heals most of the party like crazy.

Also, give yourself "I am Unstoppable" instead of res sig so you can deal with knockdowns from meteor showers and Shield of Judgment

Personally, I'd put Spirit's Boon on the Signet of Spirits Ritualist, great party-wide heals and condition removal, what's not to like?
Also, drop Vampirism. It does the damage of Spirit of Pain for a higher energy cost...

If you want, you could drop Anguish on your Channeling Rit and change Disenchantment for Anguish on your Communing Hero. This leaves room on your Channeling Hero for Splinter Weapon (to take out Mobs.) Sometimes the AoE can be much better than a single target knockdown and some +damage on attacks. If you don't want to override Great Dwarf Weapon, that's going to happen anyway, just like with Weapon of Warding. Explained below.

Put Infuse Health on the Elementalist, as said by FoxBat in post #3. As it stands now you haven't got a single 1/4th sec cast heal. The Assassin's Ritualist hero could be changed for a Sabway Restoration Necromancer for better energy management too, as he doesn't use his primary attribute. If it's Rt/ because of the longer Weapon of Warding, that's going to be overrun anyway because you have Xinrae's Weapon and Weapon of Remedy on your heroes.

Your Assassin lacks Critical Agility, a staple skill on any PvE Dagger Mastery Assassin. He would hardly benefit from Locust's Fury at all because you already have a Paragon with "Save Yourselves!", and the attack damage is hardly buffed tbh. (If you want knockdowns you could just aswell drop "Save Yourselves!"* and take Brawling Headbutt, now you got knockdown on demand.)

Anyway, it's for Normal Mode so I guess anything goes.

*Blasphemy, I know. But the Paragon has a copy anyway.

locust's fury is a pretty bad elite. Also, I'd give your SS Necro Aegis instead of the smiting prayers.

It would also be helpful to have something that can tank ~30 meteor showers without getting wiped for wastes.

Needs more strength of honor.

Strength of Honor would only benefit one of your 8 party members. Who also happens to (obviously ) be an easy- to shutdown melee character.

Point being Judge's Insight is better as it affects both the Paragon and the Assassin.

Edit: @OP:Come to think of it, why are you taking Insidious Parasite and not Mark of Pain. It's NM so there should be no scatter.
Edit#2: And like the post below says, Barbs won't trigger with Judge's Insight. So take either Strength of Honor, Barbs (and Mark of Pain), or Judge's Insight with other hexes such as Reckless Haste.

SoH may only benefit one member, but that member is doing a majority of the damage.

An imbagon is only so-so damage, even with 20% penetration.

And SS is limited in normal mode due to slower attack, and barbs won't take effect with the holy damage from Judge's Insight.

Quote: Originally Posted by IronSheik

SoH may only benefit one member, but that member is doing a majority of the damage.

An imbagon is only so-so damage, even with 20% penetration.

And SS is limited in normal mode due to slower attack, and barbs won't take effect with the holy damage from Judge's Insight. I never said I liked Judge's Insight, but compared to SoH it seems the better choice. Plus some foes in the Underworld are weak to Holy-type damage, right?

Alot of great replies. Thanks alot everyone. I wanna respond to some of them

Quote: Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight I wouldn't trust earthbind on the hero even with ritual lord, I dunno it just seems like it won't be up near enough. Also disenchantment is a waste imo. Try n/rt healers (if possible) because you don't have to worry about long battles or energy management. Also hero spiteful spirit sucks cause their ai will auto ss everything your killing. So it won't be doing much damage at all unless you plan to micro almost all the time. Also put can't touch this on your imbagon to be spammed for dhuum fight. That way you won't need as many candy canes. I knew about the Earthbind tactic for Dhuum, but thanks for sharing it. Earthbind only has real value in the Dhuum fight. I don't really expect it to up during most the UW. During the Dhuum fight I think it's going to be easy enough to micro it, if the hero really proves to fail at keeping it up. Disenchantment is put in there to trigger Painful Bond more and it has its uses versus Smites, but ye other then that its pretty useless. I'm gonna throw out the SS hero and replace him with something else. CTT could work, but I wonder if its needed when Dhuum is on his butt 80% of the time, I'll keep it in mind though

Quote: Originally Posted by FoxBat Vekk solo-healed for us through half of UW after our monk got dropped. The recent AI updates on infuse have made them pretty godly. Not as godly as a human, but it's still miles ahead of monk heroes. (Small note: put infuse on your freaking ele.)

In that vein the rit healers have some serious potential energy issues. If you don't want to rely on soul reaping and SoLS, I'd go for OoS or energy drain. (Again, recent AI updates on OoS) I'd say you can drop down to 2 healers but that can be risky with them being AIs, and it's not like you have any real monks to outdps. That's pretty impressive. I am sceptical about ER ele's, but I thought I needed some prots and this seemed the best option. If you say they use infuse well enough, I could make somewhat of a hybrid. Then I could probably take a Rit healer out and add more damage. Didn't notice any recent AI updates on OoS. I didn't use an N/Rt at first because I always see them in tandem with minion bombers. Since this isn't using minions I feared the N/Rt would run out of energy. If the ER ele thing works and I can pack more damge, then the N/Rt will be the better option I think.

Quote: Originally Posted by Buns United

If you want, you could drop Anguish on your Channeling Rit and change Disenchantment for Anguish on your Communing Hero. This leaves room on your Channeling Hero for Splinter Weapon (to take out Mobs.) Sometimes the AoE can be much better than a single target knockdown and some +damage on attacks. If you don't want to override Great Dwarf Weapon, that's going to happen anyway, just like with Weapon of Warding. Explained below.
...
Your Assassin lacks Critical Agility, a staple skill on any PvE Dagger Mastery Assassin. He would hardly benefit from Locust's Fury at all because you already have a Paragon with "Save Yourselves!", and the attack damage is hardly buffed tbh. (If you want knockdowns you could just aswell drop "Save Yourselves!"* and take Brawling Headbutt, now you got knockdown on demand.) Initially I put Anguish on the player because he can see what anguish is attacking, to make the most out of Painfull Bond. I like your suggestion for it though. ZOMG I forgot Critical Agility?! That's pretty stupid . I really want dual SY, I know it might be overkill, but with the limitations I have, I'm not gonna risk anything less then dual SY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik And SS is limited in normal mode due to slower attack, and barbs won't take effect with the holy damage from Judge's Insight. I went /facepalm on my own stupidity. Thanks for pointing that out I'm updating the builds now and I will edit the OP later. Thanks to everyone for the comments

Use an MM bomber instead of SS in my opinion.

Use a better sin elite (way of the assasin seeing as you're not using crit agility...) edit:if you put it in use moebius or something,even temple strike. Just not lotus.

And maybe think about hex removal on the WoR rit,Protective Was is highly overrated.

some reason i think it wouldnt work... majority here dont either


just tell your friend to buy the other campaign... dam anet just released a deal for the holidays.

Quote: Originally Posted by Buns United

I never said I liked Judge's Insight, but compared to SoH it seems the better choice. Plus some foes in the Underworld are weak to Holy-type damage, right? JI is only useful for certain situations (converting damage to holy against undead). Otherwise, it is useless. With JI, you'll see an increase of ~+5 DPS, whereas with SoH on a sin, it'll be ~+40 DPS.

The choice is clear.

Quote: Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Use an MM bomber instead of SS in my opinion.

Use a better sin elite (way of the assasin seeing as you're not using crit agility...) edit:if you put it in use moebius or something,even temple strike. Just not lotus.

And maybe think about hex removal on the WoR rit,Protective Was is highly overrated. Wouldn't recommend an MM in the Underworld. He'd be useless in the Chaos Plains and that's the place where it hurts the most.

Locust's Fury is a useless human elite really. It only gives the extra double strike chance to auto attacks and you want to be spamming Death Blossom.
I'm thinking either Moebius Strike or Way of the Assassin.
Either way, replace Judge's Insight with Strength of Honor - JI will only give a decent boost against the Dead Thresher's and Collectors, the Armour penetration is pointless on daggers.


One of the biggest pains you'll suffer is energy on the healers. N/Rts are longer lasting than Rits, but have slightly weaker heals. A hero's use of Spirit Siphon isn't too great.


I would say keep SS, but I'm not sure how fast the rest of the build will kill stuff. If it's fairly fast, I'd say replace it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lukyboy

Me and 2 friends want to clear Underworld soon. One of them doesnt have Prophecies and the other isn't really far in any campaign other then Nightfall. That means pugging isn't really an option, because they all start in Temple of the Ages and its gonna take a long time before we get a decent pug in either Chantry or Zin Ku. One correction here.

Most PUG groups form in ToA. Also guilds who are only able to get like 6/8, end up going to ToA to fill their empty slots sometimes.

So if your heroway build doesn't work, there is no excuse for not being able to find a pug group.

looks good just a few suggestions:

1. instead of dagger u can go A/D with scythe for really good aoe dmg, and more dmg in places such as the bone pits. But ye that does not trigger barbs.
2. take in strenght of honor for even more pwnage
3. instead of restoration rits, use necros for more energy (soul reaping)
4. Not sure about the e/mo protter. maybe take an ua monk, with prots.
5.the imbagon could take "can't touch this" to prevent Dhuums Touch.
6. HF and GL thats the most important

Moebius Strike hardly benefits your Jagged - Fox - DB chain, actually. It lowers your attack rate, and since you changed Judge's Insight with Strength of Honor, this would result in a loss of single target DPS and less frequent knockdowns. (But more AoE from spamming Death Blossom more often.)

Reckless Haste is pretty much wasted because you dropped Spiteful Spirit. Reckless Haste alone is a very good choice for Hard Mode, because the mobs already attack 33% faster anyway. In NM, this isn't the case. So you're benefitting less from Reckless Haste.

Since you dropped Protective Spirit on the Elementalist, you could try Shelter on the Communing Ritualist because Protective Bond (with its' 2 second casting time) alone isn't going to protect you from big hits.

Ghostmirror Light is bad, let that get through to you. The healer isn't always going to need heals, and if he does he can't cast Ghostmirror Light on himself. So it'd be more effective to just take a 'target ally' heal, such as Spirit Transfer.

Vampirism is bad, for similar reasons as the above. You're not always going to need a heal on the Communing Rit, and if you do Vampirism alone won't heal enough. It's also a relatively high energy cost for a low damage spirit, and a weak PvE-only skill.

Seeing how spammable your Channeling Ritualist's spirits are, Summon Spirits is wasted too. It might be decent for getting your offensive spirits out of AoE damage. But you can just aswell cast them in a relatively 'safe' spot away from your party members. This way, if the enemy AI decides to cast big AoE spells on your spirits, those big AoE spells won't be hitting you.

Having "Save Yourselves!" twice, again; is a big waste. Especially considering how you also have "There's Nothing to Fear!" and "For Great Justice!" + Focussed Anger, a load of spirits, Reckless Haste/Enfeebling Blood, knockdowns, interrupts. etc.

^ If you look at the alternatives for "SY!" on the Assassin, there's much better choices. Whirlwind Attack (for instance) would benefit greatly from Great Dwarf Weapon. And seeing how you devoted one whole character slot to similar AoE knockdowns (the ranger), are you sure you don't want to drop it?

Your only rez is on one of your 2 healing characters. I'd take atleast 1 more rez just to be sure.
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Just a few more pointers.

I typed a big long spiel and closed window, and have no will to type it again, so i remade the build to what I see would benefit it.

Not enuff hard revives.

Two frontliners with SY=Better than imba+frontliner

Too much anti melee.

Ranger had redundant skills.

Rits were bleh.