My HM Team Build (Feedback Please)

Pugs Not Drugs

Pugs Not Drugs

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009



I originally ran Sabway, but kept modding and modding it, and soon I found myself running this. I've done a few vanquishes and missions with it, and it works pretty well. I realize it probably would be better if I ran SY spam or something, but I find it boring, and prefer to play my ranger over a sin or a warrior.


A quick rundown of the builds:

Me
I just provide the big damage. With all your buffs, you hit around 120 damage x2 with Death Blossom on even high armored targets. Of course, its not possible to spam Asura Scan on every target, but with the damage from "I am the strongest!" and Strength and Honor, I still hit pretty hard even auto attacking. I also act as a tank of sorts due to Lightning Reflexes and my high elemental armor. I use Lightning Reflexes in my build because it helps me spam Death Blossom and keeps my energy up.

Smiter
This build worked much better than I thought it would. The hero uses Defender's Zeal excellently, and rarely has energy issues. I generally have 2-3 melee in my group that it maintains SoH on, but I think it could do more. The AI pretty much spams Reversal of Damage when the party is taking damage. Reversal of Damage heals for about 70, protects for about 70, and does around 70 damage. I also found out Judge's Intervention had huge synergy with minions. The AI will use the skill on minions, so coupling that with Death Nova will do about 300 armor ignoring AOE damage with poison.

Minion Master
Just a general MM build. I keep Protective Spirit disabled and micro it because the AI gets spam happy with it.

Spirit Spammer
A basic spirit spamming build. Provides huge damage with spirits + Painful Bond + Splinter Weapon.



Feedback please!

Ninja Ninja

Ninja Ninja

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

W/

Looks good to me, spirit spammer and mm works well in pve not sure how the smiter works.

ajc2123

ajc2123

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

North of the wall

Me/

I like it.

Defenders zeal is SO awesome in PvE....good thing its worthless in PvP. Monks with endless energy = trouble lol.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

Even as a minion bomber I'm still not pleased with the state jagged is in. I'd switch to AoTH and if you really wanted bone minions for shambling. Otherwise it looks interesting- time to go test on my ranger.

LunchboxOctober

LunchboxOctober

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2008

Canada, eh

The Unsound Souls [Soul]

W/

Looks solid, esp the smiter, except RoD doesn't heal, just gives DF bonus.

Pugs Not Drugs

Pugs Not Drugs

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxOctober View Post
Looks solid, esp the smiter, except RoD doesn't heal, just gives DF bonus. The ~70 heal comes from Divine Favor + Smiters Boon. (It actually heals for 84 at 13 Divine Favor)

Eragon Zarroc

Eragon Zarroc

Atra estern?? ono thelduin

Join Date: Jan 2008

Madness Incarnate

[Duo]

W/P

soooo, u just rely on henchmen for heals? and it doesn't seem very viable for say 4-man areas

Braxton619

Braxton619

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2008

A/W

The only problem is if they block your attacks. It would be better to have Golden Fox Strike and Wild Strike to cancel their blocking stances. I would rather put RoJ on the smiter for big spiking damage. Put Judge's Insight on your smiter. This is important in hard mode.

How are you receiving health? If your party gets spiked and everyone gets down to ~50-100hp... your screwed. I would not rely on the smiter to heal the entire team. What if Smiter's Boon gets stripped? Then he will only heal 30-40hp which is NOT enough for hard mode. Since your not taking SY, it is vital for good healing. Basically with those heroes, your going to have to take more monks in the vanquish.

Good luck on the build. If I had to rate it, it would be 7/10.

Pugs Not Drugs

Pugs Not Drugs

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc View Post
soooo, u just rely on henchmen for heals? and it doesn't seem very viable for say 4-man areas
I have only used it in 8 man areas. I'm pretty sure its terrible in parties of 4 or 6. And yeah, henchman have gotten much better with healing since the update. The prots, minions, party heals, hex/condition removal, and body blocking from my heroes takes most the pressure off, all the henchman have to do is redbar.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Leet Tankur View Post
The only problem is if they block your attacks. It would be better to have Golden Fox Strike and Wild Strike to cancel their blocking stances. I would rather put RoJ on the smiter for big spiking damage. Put Judge's Insight on your smiter. This is important in hard mode.

How are you receiving health? If your party gets spiked and everyone gets down to ~50-100hp... your screwed. I would not rely on the smiter to heal the entire team. What if Smiter's Boon gets stripped? Then he will only heal 30-40hp which is NOT enough for hard mode. Since your not taking SY, it is vital for good healing. Basically with those heroes, your going to have to take more monks in the vanquish.

Good luck on the build. If I had to rate it, it would be 7/10. If I know I'm going to be in an area with lots of blocks like Kourna or the Realm of Torment, I would bring Golden and Wild. RoJ is pretty bad now that the AI recognizes it as AOE. RoJ does about 300 damage over 8 seconds while Judge's + Death Nova do 300 damage instantly. Plus, the AI uses RoJ on the wrong targets anyways. And if the monk had RoJ, he could not maintain SoH on more than 1 or 2 targets.

I am bringing the Monk henchman ofc to get my heals.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

Some comments/suggestions:
R/A bar: Moebius is a sub-par elite nowadays, considering that you actually get slightly more single target DPS without using it and just going through your chain. On my sin, personally, I use shattering assault build with an unblockable chain right along side DB. IATS! is also pretty sub-par, especially on a fast attacking sin. BUH! will do more damage over time.

Channeling support:
I prefer a channeling/resto hybrid. I'm not a fan of Dwayna's sorrow. MBAS not only heals extremely well but frees up the FF/infuse combo on your MM altogether, saving you bar space.

DZ smite:
I haven't had much success with DZ smite, heroes don't seem to use DZ properly, at least for me. (I use an ER prot/smite) But it definitely looks like a good bar.

If you're looking for something to fill the optional slot with, don't be afraid to put in another copy of splinter weapon. Dual SW is insanely powerful.

Braxton619

Braxton619

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2008

A/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
Sins are for retarded people without honor and no desire to improve their gameplay. You sir are the idiot of this thread. I am a sin and proud of it. However, I know most sins are just cocky little kids that think there all rich and BS. I am not like that. I like sins for there amount of extreme damage and melee is my favorite type of gameplay. Next time I suggest picking better words than pissing off someone.

I think all professions are good in ways. If you think a profession is bad, its either you suck playing as it or you never played it.

Xx Da Best Xx

Xx Da Best Xx

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2008

LA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs View Post
You spelled 'damage' in your build wrong. Other than that...needs more heals.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
lol
I can't let you get away with this. You prefer to play a ranger over a sin? Check your bar again and tell me whether you play a ranger or a sin.
-OR- maybe he meant he likes playing on his ranger character because he already has half his titles done, or maybe, god forbid, he just likes how his ranger looks. What difference or business is it to you?

Quote:
If you admit running SY is strong, why don't you put it on your ranger. Sins are for retarded people without honor and no desire to improve their gameplay. Contradictory statements. If running SY! spam is stronger than running dagger spam, wouldn't running a weaker build be more challening and thus help "improve his gameplay?"

Also, sins are for "retarded people without honor?" Okay? Really now, sankt. Probably your worst post ever. I am disappointed.

Sankt Hallvard

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
-OR- maybe he meant he likes playing on his ranger character because he already has half his titles done, or maybe, god forbid, he just likes how his ranger looks. What difference or business is it to you?
Not my business, but he asked for feedback and I was happy to oblige. If you ask for criticism you can't complain when it arrives. He states that he prefer to play ranger over a sin but still fills most of his bar with sin skills. Do I really need to argue this point further?

Quote:
Contradictory statements. If running SY! spam is stronger than running dagger spam, wouldn't running a weaker build be more challening and thus help "improve his gameplay?" You have to separate the 2. There is no direct link between the power of a bar and the possibilites to improve your gameplay. I'm merely pointing out that if he's aiming for efficiency, and assuming SY is a stronger choice as he says himself, well then SY simply is the better choice.

I make no judgement on whether "dagger spam" is strong or not. What I'm saying is that dagger spam is lame, cheesy, dishonorable, boring and doesn't offer you a way to progress your level of playmanship. This is my personal opinion, I know 99% disagree with me. That means the odds are good that I'm wrong and you are right but I still am entitled to my unpopular opinion.

Quote:
Also, sins are for "retarded people without honor?" Okay? Really now, sankt. Probably your worst post ever. I am disappointed. I'm sorry I disappoint you.

To OP: Be honorable, don't run daggers.

bj91x

bj91x

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

If this build is working pretty well, what kind of feedback are you looking for? I don't see any reason you'd need feedback from others considering this is working well for you. I personally don't seek feedback of any kind on the way I play. I just don't agree with the way a lot of people play. My builds suit my style of play better.

In just this thread alone, people are making comments about using henchies to heal. I've always relied on henchies for healing/protecting. The only other defensive support skill I take is Enfeebling Blood since majority of damage in HM comes from physical attackers. I sometimes take a MM or daze or other skills if the area I'm going into has some other danger, but for the most part, Enfeebling Blood is all I really need for most hard mode areas (though I'm a returning player and very rusty right now... so I'm taking a MM on nearly any HM mission atm... I used to be able to h/h Eternal Grove on HM with my eyes closed and now... I can't h/h it using a Paragon with those defensive PVE skills Q_Q).

I also don't get all this raze about taking necros to heal and loading them up with Protection skills. Again, the hench healers are all I need for healing in majority of HM areas and I'd rather use my necros to specialize in their role rather than take half baked DPS and some support skills. That is not to say that I won't take additional support skills if the situation calls for it. Plus, I do have some fun builds with Restoration (Razah) and Smiter (Tahlkora) that deal damage and give additional defense/healing at the same time. But this is more because these are fun and interesting builds, not so much because I need the additional defensive support.

Another reason I don't take defensive support skills is because I constantly cycle through different heroes. I get bored using the same build so I rotate between my heroes and builds to add more variety. As such, creating a DPS/support hybrid build on all my heroes is kind of a pain. :P I just slap on Enfeebling Blood on one of my heroes and go on my merry way.

While I don't have any real feedback, I do like your build. It seems fun and interesting. I never thought to try Judge's Intervention with minions. I always saw this as an additional skill that can keep my party from deaths while adding some damage rather than a more offensive role when used with minions. I'm gonna try my Smiter build with minions now.

Betrayer of Wind

Betrayer of Wind

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2008

Brazil

Agents of Indecision[meh]

Me/

I'd replace IATS for brawling headbutt,and jagged/fox for GPS+falling spider.that way you have infinite energy for scans andconstant KD's to shutdown whatever you need to.You also get more D-blossoms in that way.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Since you are playing a melee ranger can I suggest R/W? Not saying is superior or inferior, just different.

Both the Hammer (earth shaker, knocks) or the Axe (few aoe attacks, easy dw and shield) paths should be viable - additionally you could have a pet (and in the case of an axe build the elite could be enraged lunge) to abuse SoH and GDW if you can add it to your build (Scavenger Strike in that situation should help with energy).

That smiter could be also replaced by a RoJ Necro (which could use a small amount of curses for enfeebling blood) with SoH or even an orders necro if besides you some of the heroes are physical damage dealers.

I don't like jagged bones - it is generally irrelevant. What to do with the slot is harder as most necro elites are meh. AotL is a decent skill I guess.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
Not my business, but he asked for feedback and I was happy to oblige. If you ask for criticism you can't complain when it arrives. He states that he prefer to play ranger over a sin but still fills most of his bar with sin skills. Do I really need to argue this point further?
Yes, you do.

Rangers have a stronger armor rating against eles than sins, they also have a almost maintainable IAS+75% block rate. With zealous daggers they have little energy problems. The extra dmg from on the runes is minimal sins daggers hit for so little.

Do not say a build sucks because it is "dishonorable" or it "just does", you aren't helping at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
You have to separate the 2. There is no direct link between the power of a bar and the possibilites to improve your gameplay. I'm merely pointing out that if he's aiming for efficiency, and assuming SY is a stronger choice as he says himself, well then SY simply is the better choice. SY pushes defense while the OPs build pushes offense. I've run a orders team with a varient of the dagger sin in HM and I blow through most of the low-end pve stuff. I'm not sure one is superior than the other depending rather it depends the team's build, and in the OP's case this build is weak with out a heavy-hitting dps class.

OT: I tested the build a bit and IATS really doesn't fit in the build, nor does MS (skills recharge quickly). Change for brawling headbutt and Shattering assault. The only other bar I would change is the rit-sub out DS and A-rage for PwK and MBas for a bit more healing.

Hells Fury

Hells Fury

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2009

W/D

I use similar setup with my warrior except my smiter is little different.
It's N/mo with Icy Veins, reversal of damage, SoH, Signet of lost souls, , smite hex, Signet of sorrow, judges insight and withering aura. I think it's more energy efficient as it hold up to 2 SoH and still keep spaming spells tnx to soul reaping and signet of lost souls. Although i used judges intervention in that build at first place i found that he isn't using it as much as he should. It would be a great thing he knew how to use it on minions below 50% or 25% hp.
Also smite condition pretty useless considering that mend body and soul can keep you quite clean with 3-4 spirits around.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

Quote:
Not my business, but he asked for feedback and I was happy to oblige. If you ask for criticism you can't complain when it arrives. He states that he prefer to play ranger over a sin but still fills most of his bar with sin skills. Do I really need to argue this point further?
The point is, he stated that he like to play his ranger CHARACTER, which could have nothing to do with preferring a dagger play-style. You mistakenly link preferring to play a specific ranger avatar with preferring to play a ranger build.
Quote:
You have to separate the 2. There is no direct link between the power of a bar and the possibilites to improve your gameplay. Of course there is a link. If a bar is overpowered and makes gameplay a breeze and offer no challenge, chances are you aren't going to bother to improve because there won't be an impetus. I mean, it's not as if spamming SY! on recharge is technically challenging.
Quote:
I'm sorry I disappoint you. Damn right skippy you should be ;o

Pugs Not Drugs

Pugs Not Drugs

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
Some comments/suggestions:
R/A bar: Moebius is a sub-par elite nowadays, considering that you actually get slightly more single target DPS without using it and just going through your chain. On my sin, personally, I use shattering assault build with an unblockable chain right along side DB. IATS! is also pretty sub-par, especially on a fast attacking sin. BUH! will do more damage over time.

Channeling support:
I prefer a channeling/resto hybrid. I'm not a fan of Dwayna's sorrow. MBAS not only heals extremely well but frees up the FF/infuse combo on your MM altogether, saving you bar space.
I will definitely try that out. It does seem like a better combo than Jagged + Fangs.

Yeah, only times when Dwayna's Sorrow is much use to me is against heavy nukers. Generally, if my minions all blow up at once, my party is too. Also, it can serve as a great cover for SoH. But I will try out your idea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post lol
I can't let you get away with this. You prefer to play a ranger over a sin? Check your bar again and tell me whether you play a ranger or a sin.

If you admit running SY is strong, why don't you put it on your ranger. Sins are for retarded people without honor and no desire to improve their gameplay.
By that I meant I like playing my Ranger avatar over my Sin. I have had my Ranger since I started playing Guild Wars in 2006. Sorry for the confusion. Also, if I brought SY, I would have to go R/W which would mean less domage but more defence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xx Da Best Xx View Post You spelled 'damage' in your build wrong. It was on purpose


Quote: Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post To OP: Be honorable, don't run daggers. Yeah, I know my build is just spam spam spam, but I'm only there for big yellow numbers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Betrayer of Wind View Post
I'd replace IATS for brawling headbutt,and jagged/fox for GPS+falling spider.that way you have infinite energy for scans andconstant KD's to shutdown whatever you need to.You also get more D-blossoms in that way. Definitely gonna try that out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
Since you are playing a melee ranger can I suggest R/W? Not saying is superior or inferior, just different.

Both the Hammer (earth shaker, knocks) or the Axe (few aoe attacks, easy dw and shield) paths should be viable - additionally you could have a pet (and in the case of an axe build the elite could be enraged lunge) to abuse SoH and GDW if you can add it to your build (Scavenger Strike in that situation should help with energy).

That smiter could be also replaced by a RoJ Necro (which could use a small amount of curses for enfeebling blood) with SoH or even an orders necro if besides you some of the heroes are physical damage dealers.

I don't like jagged bones - it is generally irrelevant. What to do with the slot is harder as most necro elites are meh. AotL is a decent skill I guess. Yeah, I do like switching out my build from time to time because running the same one gets boring. I know that in this build I need to run a melee ranger because I hold the aggro until the Minions catch up and body block. So I change it around, but I find myself running daggers the most often.

Replacing the smiter with a Necro would mean less defense from Smiter's Boon, but more offense from RoJ. That's up to you.

Not many better elites out there. I drop Jagged for something like Empathetic Removal in hex heavy areas. Not a fan of AotL myself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
@OP: Your heroes look decent. I like the idea with defender's zeal and judge's intervention. But do they work? Isn't he casting DZ on targets that are about to pop anyway thus not returning any or only little energy? Does he pump judge's on recharge on minions like he should? The hero uses DZ well. He will pretty much use it on recharge, so its be up on around 2 or 3 targets during a battle, giving him unlimited energy.

But, Judge's Intervention is not used as often as I like. The hero will use it, but not on recharge.

JONO51

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leet Tankur View Post
You sir are the idiot of this thread. I am a sin and proud of it. However, I know most sins are just cocky little kids that think there all rich and BS. I am not like that. I like sins for there amount of extreme damage and melee is my favorite type of gameplay. Next time I suggest picking better words than pissing off someone.

I think all professions are good in ways. If you think a profession is bad, its either you suck playing as it or you never played it.

Prime example of sins having no honor.

distilledwill

distilledwill

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Blighty

The Legion of the Blue Blade

R/Mo

I love going as a R/A in pve too, although in the past I've gone with Escpape over mobius. With jagged and fox fangs i've never needed constant IAS but it can't hurt.

How does the rit do for energy? I know he has Spirit Siphon and a signet, but is that enough to allow for spammage of Splinter, ancestors' and Dwayna's? It sounds like it would be alright, im just curious.
I guess with this you'd have to take dual henchy monks for HM stuff? You have a lot of prots, but not a lot of heal.

Fuzzy Taco

Fuzzy Taco

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

Level Twenty One [HAX]

N/

I agree with the sentiments that Moebius isn't really needed and that IATS! isn't that great, but your bar is pumping enough damage to make those things pretty trivial.

The only thing I'd mention is that your build just SCREAMS for Discord, and the logical place for it would be your Smiter. A Discord Smiter shifts Foul Feast off your MM, freeing up two slots for skills like Putrid Bile and Masochism. I also find Jagged Bones to be a waste of a slot, my MM generally runs a utility monk elite along the lines of Sig of Removal or Emp Removal when he's configured to run prots. If you think the utility would be overkill with the smiter, then you could always turn to AotL or an anti-spike like Aura of Faith (has saved my sorry ass more than once fighting big mean eles and the like.)