Zaishen-Coin greed causes fail!?!

Today (28-Nov-2009) Foundry of failed Creations is the Zaishen quest and you see a lot of Hard Mode PUG Teams. Most likely fail, as this is eventually the hardest mission in whole Nightfall with a balanced team.
It is not the first time I'm the only one wanting to do elite areas with PUGs in NM, but people are like "Let's do HM, more Coins!".

When I joined a Hard Mode group today the first thing I asked was "Did you ever beat this mission in Hard Mode" and surprise, surprise nobody did.
Of course we failed in hard mode in room 1 or 2 and later in normal mode in room 3.

A few hours later I came back and now people are screaming for Hard Mode runners offering them 20k to 30k.

Opinions, similar experiences?

It's not that it causes fail. Those people would ALWAYS fail. And 30k for a run for a few zoins and gems. LAWL

Aint that what HM suppsed to mean - harder, but with incentive of greater rewards?

Yup, those people always fail. I joined a PUG (don't know what was I thinking) to do Bloodstone Fen hm + bonus and lo, behold, even though you say "DON'T KILL THE GUARDIANS", they do!
Zaishen quests or coins can't cure stupidity.

Well the fact is unless you have a knowledge of what to expect their and have put some thought into what you'd want people to run you're going to fail. I do Full DoA runs on a daily basis with my guild and it's just something that really can't be pugged. If you're wanting to do it get some friends you know well or join an uber leetsaucse guild

greedy people don't fail, bad players fail

People who clearly are not equipped insisting on highest rewards despite highest difficulty......yeah it's a receipe for disaster.

Well in September and October I pugged my alts to legendary guardians.
I also pugged Dhuum twice with np if you know how to play you only need like one other person who is good. The others can just follow and the grp can be successful. But I have not pugged doa so maybe its the exception.

Pffft

Foundry is the easiest one in my opinion. In fact, I always run it balanced and never tank n' spank cryway. Cryway was harder due to the random spawns in room 3, in fact.

Check out the wiki for DoA heroway. I use to use a variant of that.

Foundry has always been the hardest of the four. That's why Titan Gemstones lagged so far behind the others whose prices dropped rapidly after the zone was introduced. Until 600/famine/smite came along to butcher it the so-called balanced teams were using NT on the bonder with rebirth and a pet corpse to bypass gate lockouts. Sounds simple enough but there were fails left and right until someone came up with that idea. It's doable heroway in normal, I've done it, but I got a nickel that says you can't do it in hard.

last time it was zb i never saw any runners o_O

veil is hardest IMO

id put city in front of foundry too tbh in speed clears

Veil>City>Foundry>Gloom

room 3 has same spawns everytime, maybe you mean room 2 or 4.

How should a pug-team consisting of SoS, Ele nukers, 2 healers and a perma clear the 3rd room in NM? Our team failed always into that specific room.. tried to go to the opposite corner etc. with no positive effect on survival.. This really bugs me out.. should the eles run wards etc. or what? Kinda lost here.

The + points I'd have given to the group was that everyone actually understood how hard that place is in HM and we all agreed to do it in nm..

Room 3 with a perma. Best way would be to round up all the groups. Run to the opposite corner. Have the perma ball them all on the wall near that corner. Once set run in an nuke and Needs a snare to keep some from trying to run around the wall to you though. Keep mostly out of aggro to prevent people from running around though.

Personally with balanced NM, i run to the corner and pull one at a time. If you set up in the corner with spirits you can pull the Rage Titans first, and kill most of them before they run up and use shockwave. If you set up your spirits so that when you cast your aggro bubble just touches the corner of the wall that extends in the middle of the room. the rages will stop there to cast. At the same time the other patrols though are just out of reach. Here you dont want to use Ebon Assassin or have your melee run out, because they will aggro. Once the Rage group is down. The rest is easy as you have plenty of room to work with.


Edit/PS- Foundry IMO is only the hardest because there is no room for error in rooms 2-3-4. If you mess up you fail. Once past room 4, foundry is pretty easy. Veil is second hardest because its just a pain in the ass with the quest spawns and the pops at the end. City is easy. Only the last fight at bosses can be tough if you pull to much. Gloom is easy. Only the earth Tormentors are hard once you pop all the darknesses because they don't have a set aggro when they spawn, so they run everywhere and can get to your backline. Even that can be fixed by backing up.

But yea foundry is only hard because you can't screw up in first rooms.

Hero/Hench it...Discord with Warrior human, and rit team with Spammer human...no probs.

This. I've joined many a pug for the Z missions and have succeeded with no problems. If you think they are gonna fail before you even start the mission, then it's most likely best to leave that group and find a new one.

Something like this I suppose..

I guess this probably depends on what you are using to clear it. Back in the day the tank had a mountain of bonds, personal buffs and Symbiosis to jack their hp into orbit. Unless the monk dozed off there was plenty of room for HB/HP spam when you've got 1600+hp. The current way I suspect you are doing it with dual perma tanks probably is a lot more delicate in Veil but faster. City has just never been an issue IMO. So long as the tank is balling correctly and the group follows the spike Margos die fast.

Close...we use one more Nec/Rit with Discord as the elite. My nec builds are substantially different from those as well. Only 3 rits...the 8th slot is optional...we either take an RoJ monk or a guildie that needs a run.

i find foundry alot easier to tank without bonds than city to tank with no bonds

Foundry is a difficult area. Most of PuGs will fail trying to do the first quest. Only well prepared teams with some knowledge about DoA can complete it. But practice makes prfect. Some runners (600/famine/smite teams) have mastered to complete it within half an hour on average (with best times even 22min).

From economic point of view: Division of labour (aka economic specialisation) is a feature of modern, captialistic markets (including GW market). People that specialize in some narrow activity (for eg. running Foundry). will earn more money than people that do many diffrent things. Supply and demand rule is the answer to the question why run prices are so high. High demand during ZB and few runners makes runs so expensive.

But completed zaishen bounty is not all the run provides. Besides zaishen coins, the it also also gives 2 titan gems (worth about 15k), about 2k gold coins, 4100 lightbringer points, chances of getting very nice green weapons (like Divine Ghostly Staff or Aegis of Arrgh). The running team kills 350 foes and because you remain in radar range, you can get loot from all of them (including all HM stuff like inscribable gold weapons, skill tomes, lockpicks). Thats not all, taking the run completes one point of Mallyx the Unyielding quest allowing you to complete the Nightfall elite mission.

It's also worth mentioning that the running team is composed of three people. That means they can run only 5 people at once and they must divide between them what they earn. 30k times 5 leechers divided by 3 runners gives 50k per runner. Lets compare that with a popular Gloom run provided by many assassins. Assuming the run is 10k (the lowest price I've seen during Greater Darkness ZB), the runner gets 60k. It's more than Foundry runners would earn, but the Gloom run is much easier to do and to learn (there are several Gloom videos available on the net while there is not a single one showing full Foundry run). Foundry runners won't decrease their price. They would rather start running Gloom!

In my opinion the above deep analysis shows that 30k for the Foundry run is fair price.

One of the reason I play Zaishen quests/ missions etc is because I don't already have those missions done in HM, during the time when those particular missions are offered in Zaishen missions, is the best time to get pugs. So off course some players have not done them in HM.

On the otherhand, players who have already done them in HM and still go to do it for the coins .... hrmz.

sarcastic mode on
^^ no you can't ! and its not fair! it has to be nerf! how dare you do that below half and hours! ITS GODMODE! NERF NERF NERF!

Because THAT'S the way ANET WANTS you to play their game. ANET does NOT WANT you to PUG ELITE areas. If ANET WANTED you to PUG Elite areas, an easier way to form PUGS would exist (rather than just a party window when you're in the same town/server at the same time). PUGS are an anachronism from long before heros came out. PUGS in ELITE areas fail because the play in those areas REQUIRES tactical teamwork to achieve & most players have been relying on H/H "skills/playstyles" for so long that they CAN'T play cooperatively with those high damage swarming mobs. Gone are the days of aggro management without a perma, & soon that will be gone too....

there was the Zaishen Bounty for the 4 Horsemen yesterday.
I thought that more people in ToA would mean more people willing to complete UW, I decided to give it a try and see if I could pug my way to Dhuum (the last thing that is left to me to see in GW PVE, beside titles, which I'll never care enough about to put a good effort, and beside the BMP, which I didn't buy and I don't care about either).

Well... I've met 3 teams before going to do something else (non-GW related) out of frustration.
1st team: 5 of them never completed uw before. They insisted to go HM. And they wanted to try a full run too. We failed at the reaper of the labyrinth. ("Don't take the quests!" and three-freaking-three newbs of them took all the three-freaking-three quests).
2nd team: different people, almost same unexperience. The "perma" forgot the armor with the Shadow Art runes (or whatever) in the xunlai chest. The team says "oh, let's try anyway. I'm guardian of this, and vanquisher of that". Given the outcome, I guess this transltes into: "Let's fail anyway". HM + UW is unforgiving.
3rd team: We go straight to 4h, but at the chaos plains, some of the team insist on killing every single Banished Dream Rider (and subsequent waves of MindBlade Spectres), until, after almost 30 minutes of this crap, one warrior aggroes too many enemies, causing a party wipe. (half of the party began running around like headless chickens).


This is the dialogue between two of my team mates in ToA, team chat, before starting. (Not the exact words, but almost there).
Wise guy (WG) and Greedy guy (DA)
DA : "HM or nothing. I leave."
WG: "HM + UW + PUGS = fail."
DA: "HM gives more coins."
WG: "that's just a small bunch of coins, not worth the increased chance of failure"
DA: "I don't care! I have too much stuff, I really need the big pack, it costs a lot of coins."

This "DA" (DumbAss) had just declared, few minutes before this brilliant insight, that he never went past the chamber in uw. In NM.

Yes, being greedy is the cause of failure in GW (and given the kind of failure, I believe that those guys are a failure in RL too).

I've PuGged DoA, so nope.
Recently too, no Ursan >.>

I had a PUG team, and we did it our first try easily with no problems in HM. But, it was a well balanced group.

I think the issue is less 'I haven't done these in HM' and more 'I'm totally not equipped to handle HM because this is a brand-new character and I unlocked HM on my main but I'm still gonna do HM anyway because of the zcoins!' I mean, if you just dusted off your mule because of zcoins and he's underequipped and underskilled, you might want to really reconsider that HM.

Applies to any zquest.

greed is a human instinct
nuff said

meh, there may be failure, but without the quest, there wouldn't hardly be any pugs at all! it's either no pugs or pugs that fail ;-) not much middle ground