Tanking?

what class would be good for tanking?

Warrior, or perma Assassin, or 600 monk, off the top of my head.

Tanking in GW outside for farming purposes is generaly a bad idea. Just blow stuff up ;>

Perma Tank, 600 Monk, and Warrior

Tanking is very good in Guild Wars. With perma sin, you get get a large group, ball them up, make them 50% slower with Grasping and bomb them with AoE.

can we go a single topic without a SF reference?


almost any profession can "tank" it just depends on player skills, equipment and skill build.
thru-out 90% of the game, you dont need a "tank".

Did you expect a topic titled "Tanking?" to not include an SF reference?

Exactly, since SF is one of the best tanking skills?

*waits for nerf*

;D

but yeah you generally don't need a tank in many situations, but almost anything can do the job, prepot, have fun.

Also to point out GW doesn't have the aggression mechanics found in a number of other games, so the standard tank and spankdoesn't work. The warrior is suited with their armor level to soak up damage, however, and there are other methods for stopping the mobs looking for a different target, incuding body blocking, and avoiding triggering mob scattering

Just in case some wise fart decides to turn this into a "WHY TANKING SUCKS THREAD". The OP never once asked if "Tanking" is good. He specifically said what IS GOOD for tanking. Now that I got that out of the way. Ob Flesh tanks, SF and 600 come to mind. May also throw Dervish in there somewhere.

Most importantly..................................






Positioning. I don't give a damn how good your skill bar is or what class you are using. If your positioning blows you will fail again and again and again until you get it right. Heck you could run just a standard BASHYOURFACE Warrior bar and position yourself correctly to body block and you can scrap the whole idea of bringing a skill bar dedicated for "Tanking".

Ok with out this turning into a war or a bash thread or anything like that and staying on the topic of tanking and what is a good class for tanking.
answer me three basic questions:

• Compared to WOW and its tanking forms (for those who have played a tank in WOW) is it similar, different or about the same in GW?
  
• Can you set hero's to tank? (would it be worth it is the main question for this one)
  
• Compared to WOW (again....) weapon and armor sets are completely different, Armor is just to be pretty here, where as in Wow it has a purpose, same with weapons...unless you have good Runes, enchants and bla attached. so the question revolves around skills, compared to wow, does skills in Guild wars equate to the armor sets in WOW? (in other words, do we rely more on skills then armor, where as Wow its more armor then build?)

I AM NOT TRYING TO COMPARE GUILDWARS TO WOW....

but rather trying to understand some of the core concepts that really separate the games when it comes down to these things such as tanking in this instance.

The tanking in GW is much, much different than in WOW. There is no "aggro" type affect that causes monsters to be more likely to attack you. Instead, it's all about your armor, health, and what you're doing in the battle. The higher your armor and/or health, the less likely you'll be targeted. If you deal a lot of damage, you'll become priority. It's not about aggro, it's about priority.

You can't really set heros to tank. Just attack wildly, attack a little more controlledly, or run away like a pansy. Even flagging a hero and making them use tank skills won't make them tank. They'll still try to fight or run away.

In GW, you absolutely rely on skills much, much more than armor. In fact, some skills make armor needless, such as Protective Spirit, and yes, Shadow Form. Don't get the wrong idea though, armor is still damn important, just not as much as having a good build.

Tanking in WoW takes more skill basically. I'm dual specced over there, 4k DPS..blah blah etc. etc..and then Tanking basically took me a good month to actually get the motions down. You have to hold aggro as a Tank in WoW..and watchout that other players on the team don't accumulate threat..also, you're doing a lot more as a Tank in WoW battles because you're generally dealing with bosses that would make any GW boss look like childs play lol. More coordination, less Leeroy, more key heals on you..also keeping adds off of the healer...just a more sophisticated class than what is commonly referred to as 'tank' in GW.

I didn't see your posts/questions about skills and whatnot either so I'll chyme in..

GW armor (like you said) seems to be more for looks than anything. WoW, you need to make sure you don't have too much haste, or too much stamina, or too little defense, or too little hit rating..it's much more technical. The battles you go into for Raids last a lot longer than killing say...a boss here in GW. It can take like 15 minutes to down a boss over there whereas you can Grab 8 and go in GW and take down a 'boss' (i say that lightly for GW).

As for the skills balance...like the poster above said..skills > armor in GW. You can pretty much wear crappy armor and have the correct skills and hold your own...in WoW, it's a balance. You need the right skills while chaining them correctly (called a rotation or priority que) as well as the Armor with stats (in this case defense for tank) to back it up. Gear checks are quite common and will limit you to groups if you're not geared enough for a certain fight..etc. etc.


Basically, you get armor over there as you can. It's not even like you have time to make pretty armor sets..if you want to get as well as geared as you can..and as fast as you can, you take what you can get..and then down the line you'll progress to the higher tier armor which is most of the time nice, pretty, w/e you want to call it.

Hope this helped

I haven't played WoW so I will not go into comparisons, but I will try to provide more GW-specific details.

As has been said before, the trick in Guild Wars is that aggro is a part of the monster AI, not the game mechanics. And monster AI, especially in hard mode, is tuned to honestly attempt to wipe your party. It will prioritize vulnerable players, damage dealers, and healers.

The Wiki article on aggro is at http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Aggro.

Second trick is that monks have Protection prayers. Correctly used, these skills can make just about anything tanky. This works even better if combined with Rit weapon spells and Paragon shouts In particular, "Save Yourselves!" is essential for PvE.

Third trick is that losing aggro can be prevented by body blocking, snares and knockdowns. While assassins are (currently) the best at not taking any damage, followed by 600 monks and earth eles, warriors are the best at chaining knockdowns, while water eles and rangers are best at snaring. Minion masters and spirit spammers are best at providing huge number of decoy targets; monster AI will identify minions and spirits as super-squishy targets and will attack them often. Also, anyone can bodyblock but this requires specific positioning.

All invincible tank builds require specific skill chains that heros don't do (as far as I know). Bodyblocking and targetted knockdowns also require human intelligence. Heros will snare and spam minions and spirits very well.

Again, without going into what WoW does (because I have no clue), I'd say GW is all about skills. Warriors max out at 100 armor vs physical damage, while casters have 60 armor. This is precisely 50% damage reduction - very significant, but hardly counts as invulnerability.

Armor and weapons in GW can be obtained to precise spec that you want, including the runes and mods, so people tailor them to the specific builds they're playing. Note that the full set with all runes/mods and with multiple common weapon swaps will set you back 50-100k without any fancy skins, but you'll only want this if you want to PvP with a PvE character.

For a good, general-purpose armor set, buy max armor as soon as you can, attach Major Vigor (that's +51 health, only 9 point below Superior Vigor but for MUCH less cash), full set of Survivor insignia, Stonefist insignia on a SINGLE item of armor if you're playing warrior (that's +1 second to knockdown duration), and Minor Rune for each attribute you need (note that Superior runes get you -75 health, which you don't want unless you're playing 55 monk); put Vitae Rune on the rest. Expect to spend 20-25k gold on this. With +30 on weapon and shield, that's 631 health or so. Get multiple cheap head pieces with +1 for each of the attributes that you commonly need in your builds.

For 600 monk and 330 rit, you will want to keep the starter armor, the one with 5 AL.

After this, it's all about skills, positioning, bodyblocking, snaring, and calling right targets at right times. Unless you're farming, when it's all about doing the proper rotation.

Just to add a teensy bit.....

Although I played WoW for a few months (got my Mage to level 60), I'm not really familiar with tanking in WoW. But it seems that tanking is a much more useful, or at least, used, method in WoW than in GW. Tanking is not used much in GW - at least not with a full "balanced" party - there are generally better ways to accomplish things in GW - so I guess you could say that tanking is different in GW. It has a bit to do with the enemy AI as has been mentioned. (You could call a basic 600/smite duo a tank plus AoE.)

Perhaps only with a lot of micro-managing of their skill bars, so, no, it wouldn't be worth it.

I think I understand what you getting at here, but just to be clear, armor does have a purpose in GW, obviously - it's armor. It's just not as varied as in WoW. Basically, in GW, once you have a set of max AL armor, any other max armor is just for cosmetics. You can vary the "purpose" of GW armor somewhat by choosing the Runes and Insignias you use on it.

So then Tanking really has no purpose in this game is what I am understanding from what every one is saying?

It's good for solo farming and for solo-running missions - which is actually a good source of money; the runners can charge others to get their characters through areas.

However, if you're actually grouping and playing the game as it's meant to be played, in general, tanking is not the most efficient way to get though the game. There are quests/missions/areas which are an exception from this rule, though. Also, there is no such thing as dedicated tank class in Guild Wars, just tank builds.

But remember that you can respec your character at will. So if circumstances suggest that you need a tank, set up a tank. When done, return to your normal build.

Also, if you're ever going to PvP, do not attempt to tank there. It will not only fail, but will also attract rage from both your opponents and your teammates.

I wouldn't say tanking has no purpose in GW - it works - it's just not a particularly good tactic.

And as Shillo pointed out, there's no "re-spec'ing" in GW in the sense that there is in WoW.

tanking useless in GW ... what you must hear ...

yeah sure , fowsc is just the most played instance and is based on tanking abilities ...

uw was for years only to be accomplished by tanks+balanced team or tank +ss

doa is still using tank

urgoz is using tank mostly

but of course thoose are only the 4 most played elite zonne so sure tank are useless in gw ... -_-

and sure tanking is so untechnical ... that s why 75% player i meet (specialy perma) dont have a clue on how to.

and yes armor has a fcking high ending importance. most tank build deal a lot about armor, only 55hp and 600hp dont care armor
stoneflesh/silent wish/shadow form tank all have armor increasing skills

then of course , you dont NEED a tank to do any area , i can run fow without tank , it just is slower , and i must say when i play hero and henchies , i dont use tank cause hero are too dumb to corectly use the balling i would do
but for elite instance tank is oftenly the best solution.

though this has been a bit lowered since the permanet shadow form sin as become with eon*** release a stupid overpowered build who can with use of a conset be farming most of zonne , but that is another debat


***before eon release it was a very balanced build imo

Can you expect a WoW player to even understand your posts when he doesn't know what Shadow form even is?

So, let's get to the BASICS of tanking in GW, so the guy can at least understand what we're talkign about.

With tanking, you have two issues present: the issue of protecting the tank and the issue of making the enemy attack the tank rather than the rest of the group.

Protecting the tank can be done in many ways, but really, it's always by using skills. Most commonly used approaches are:
-Shadow form skill: a skill that prevents the enemy from casting a spell at you and makes their attacks miss. Using the correct skills to extend it, the player can be immune to almost everything, with hordes of monsters gathering around him conveniently for him to kill them. Most effective skill and likely heading for the chopping block as it is.
-Damage reduction: Using various combinations of skills that limit the maximum damage from an attack (for example, Protective spirit that limits all damage from an attack to a maximum of 10% of your life) and then reducing the damage taken or healing it immediately, you can be invulnerable.
-High armor and healing: the old style approach, unfortunately, with many sources of armor ignoring damage, not very effective. Of course, the armor will come from armor boosting skills, not the equipped armor. The fact that generally, the difference between minimum equipped armor and maximum equipped armor is relatively small compared to the armor boost from a skill may explain why

Next is the aggro management issue. There are really only two ways to do it:
-the tank approaches the enemy and then stands still while the rest of the group waits, not moving and with noone casting spells on him. This way, the AI will not change targets, but almost any action will break this situation. This is really only useful to group the enemy up for a big coordinated strike by the rest of the group
-the tank is the only target available. The real approach, used everywhere nowadays, with teams of killer tanks clearing an area each and hastening the arrival of the "all clear" reward.


Now, for classes: a skill combination can let almost any profession tank, but really, the primary ones are the Assassin, Monk and Elementalist.

Lol indeed, lol indeed.
You're doing more because WoW uses a less complex threat system. Certain skills have certain effects on aggro levels, and if you can't manage your aggro level properly the boss will run off and kill all your DPS-ers. In GW, many bosses will attack more vulnerable targets first anyway. They'll have to kite him, and as such, take over some of the work that in WoW, the tank would be doing all by himself.
As for WoW bosses making GW bosses look like child's play... No. WoW bosses are all puzzle bosses (like Abaddon in GW:Nightfall), which I hate. But they're not hard at all. Just follow the script and they go down. It's the tanking itself that is harder in WoW, not the bosses.
I'm not a WoW player, by the way. But I've healed a bit in raids on my girl's character, it takes nowhere near the reaction speed and foresight that you need to heal properly in GW.

hum , there is also , the body blok ofc that concist in making all monster by folowing the tank to line up in specific point and then puting tank on edge of a corner while monster and team are on the 2 oposite side. so that trying to join team for monster mean going through tank witch they cant

True that, but it's quite situational, since I don't think you can do it without walls around.

even a tiny rock is enough and i cant see many situation where you cant find one.
personnaly i ve been making bodyblok almost evry where before i get fed up with hero doing stupid things and started to do all mission with minion master + spirit teams

I guess as you can see from the diversity of the answers.. We need to ask the OP what are they going to be doing with said tank.

In Fort Aspenwood on my war I can take on 5-6 guys while striking a turtle for 3-4 minutes without dying. This burns up valuable time as there is a time limit in this mission. Do I actually KILL the turtle? No. do I kill the Lux ( they have the turtles) no. Do I burn time off the clock...I sure do.

My health I can get up over 100 and with a monk behind me.. forget trying to kill me.. you best just run ahead and kill that monk cause.. that turtle is not moving till I am dead and gone.

So there is tanking without doing damage but rather Absorbing the damage the others are throwing at you either to stall or to have the rest of the team Finish them off.

Then there is tanking that requires Killing. 55 Monk is the first one that comes to my mind as I run this for farming. This type of tanking works not on absorbing damage but reducing the damage taken to 0 by using skills that reduce the damage I take by 90% and then adding health regen or shielding hands or something what will then negate the damage altogether.

The 55 monk MUST be attacked Constantly to maintain energy to stay alive and also can only fight foes that do not remove enchantments. With the remaining 1 skill slot deals damage to kill the foes. Thus maximizing profit and time from farming.

Then there is also PET tanking..and Hero tanking that involve sending in a team mate to take the brunt of the "Innitial Damage" by large groups. Most of the npc's and everyone else will unleash their most powerful attacks FIRST in the hopes of killing you fast and the running out of energy. If you can withstand this first wave and deplete the foe's energy, you, not expelling any energy at all other than the Prot spirit on the "tank" then gets to "SPANK" the foe.

Using body blocking to force the foe not to move is very effective strategy with Necro MInion MAsters. Always a fun way to go

So, the question remains, what are you wanting to tank and what profession are you?

I never played WoW, so I won't compare it to GW. I do know, however, that tanking in GW is not done by one player. Because there is no 'aggro' mechanics like other games may have (taunt, etc.) the only way to control aggro is to understand how it works. If you are on a team with people who DO NOT know how aggro works, they will most likely make it impossible for a tank to hold aggro. For GW, all tanking means is holding the aggro on yourself while staying alive for the team to make the kills. As mentioned, many things factor into monster targeting and aggro control. Health, armor, class, weapon, level, location, etc. are all part of the equation. Knowing how to GET the aggro is easy, but knowing how to HOLD the aggro is where most tanks fail, and where most teams ruin the tanking. Be warned though, being a tank means NOTHING if your team doesn't know how to work with one.

Now, having said that, the 'best' tank depends greatly on the purpose. Shadow Form will easily let an Assassin tank many areas, but an area with non-targeted spells, signets, and/or touch spells will still get killed. In that situation, another class/build would suit tanking better. Outside of Shadow Form, I'd say the best option (unless the skills get changed) would be either an E/Me running Obsidian Flesh and Mantra of Earth (with Stone Striker) or a Defy Pain Warrior. But the Monk can easily tank areas with either a 600 build or a 55 build, and most casters have options for running those same builds as the Monk.

As your asking about which class can tank... then Id say every single class has at least one Tanking build depending on the area and foes.

The main Tanks nowdays are;
Assassin, Monk, Ele, Necro, Warrior or Ritualist.

If your comparing GW to Wow for Tanking purposes, then Im afraid Im going to have to disappoint you. In GW the Groups are a lot smaller and are set up around small team tactics. A dedicated tank is mostly going to slow a group down more than it helps mitigate damage.