Yeah... Why is PUG Meta so rubbish anyway? All the new builds, with PvE skills, etc... Yet, for some reason as soon as you enter a team of randoms for the Zaishen Mission or a HM dungeon or UW; the builds turn a bit mental...
PUG META (As far as I'm aware of)
1. Defy Pain WAMMO TANKZ0rZZz
2.Elementalist searing flamez nukarz.
3.SoS spirit spammer.
4. Healer's Boon/UA monks. (Probably the newest thing to happen to PUGs, before it was Life Sheath and WoH.)
5.Spare monk, RoJ smiter. (Whatever happened to the "if you have a spare monk, they can go Life Barrier bonding")
Critscythe sin.
Barrage splints0r ranger.
Spiteful spirit/other curses necro or an MM occasionally. (though the pug MM builds suck)
The above builds are, for Hard Mode, are.... Mediocre at best.
How can we change the way the majority of players mindlessly think? From the beginning of the game, this was the best way. Now the people who have been playing from the start still follow this way of Tank and Spank; along with the players who came from WoW or whatever else other MMOs.
Now we have so many better builds and more organised/synergy-based team builds. Why the hell can't pugs run anything good? We were all pugs once, until we became known; which makes me wonder what makes us different. Are they really just idiots/French?
Well, for an example, my Meta is as follows, for an 8man team:
ER bond/infuse spammer (People are still trying to work out why these>monks. Those people are known as PUGs sadface)
ER secondary Bond/infuser
4x Heavy DPS assassins, warriors, dervish, ranger or Paragon.(That can also spam SY)
1x Mark of Pain Nuker/OoV-SoH maintainer.
Cleaner or MB if required.
If not an SoS spirit Spammer is still the only thing I would keep.
The above could easily become Meta, the builds are very flexible, and almost anyone can join in. A mesmer spamming EVAS' can replace a physical.
But guyz... Can we see more of this!? It's incredible and can rape an area in 5x the speed of a regular pug and raise survival rate by 99% (never hopeful in normal PUGs).
Stop using Defy Pain. Stop using Self-Heals. Stop using Spiteful Spirit. Stop using Monks ;-)
Don't ostracize pugs, let's help them, eh?
PuG META
HigherMinion
Shrike942
I take offense to "Don't use monks" as my main is a monk. I don't care what anyone says monks are meant to heal and so are better than anyone else at it. Just because you have one skill that can let you spam Infuse doesn't mean your better than a monk at what his profession is meant to do. Lets get rid of ER ele healers and go back to the only healers that were meant to be: Monks and SOMETIMES resto Rits.
Eluvatar
my best 2 healer heros are a HB monk and a necro resto build, thou I have not taken the time to work out a nice er healing hero. thou this is about pugs :\ which people that make the meta builds dont ever do.
upier
This way you are giving up the ease of forming a PuG for higher efficiency.
An efficiency that isn't needed due to how sufficient being bad actually is.
An efficiency that isn't needed due to how sufficient being bad actually is.
awry
In the hands of the lowest common denominator, a subpar easy to use build is more effective than a better build that requires understanding of game mechanics to use.
code1101
^^ this
The post is so sophisticated that I didnt understand it which according to the post concludes that I should always PUG ... muwahahahaha.
The post is so sophisticated that I didnt understand it which according to the post concludes that I should always PUG ... muwahahahaha.
glacialphoenix
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3.SoS spirit spammer.
4. Healer's Boon/UA monks. (Probably the newest thing to happen to PUGs, before it was Life Sheath and WoH.) That's because it's the easiest to run. I prefer WoH hybrid, and so far nobody in my PUGs has objected. (There was even a paragon complaining to me about how his previous group had two HB monks.)
Although, seriously though, I've noticed that when it comes to Zmissions, most PUGs are desperate enough for a healer that they don't care as long as your bar looks capable of it. The annoying ones are the ones that are so set in their conceptions of what can heal and what can't that they refuse to accept anything else.
Of course, I don't PUG if I want to do anything serious; I have guildies for that.
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by Shrike942
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Then it wouldn't be a PUG, eh? If you actually had the ability to choose, I would say that's a group that you planned and thought about before hand, not a pick-up-group - unless it so happens that you really do have the luxury of picking up exactly what you want at the time you want to play. |
and SOMETIMES resto Rits.
This is rather a stupid. I thought your point was that Monks= healers and protters. No one else. After reading that I think you're just an Ether Renewal hater. Jealous you can't do what I do on my Elementalist on your Monk? Monks are fine, but there are things you cannot do in a team with 2x monks as opposed to 2 ER bond/infusers. For example, "we" can maintain Protective Bond on every ally. Spam high-e prots and maintain Great Dwarf Weapon on all the physicals. A Monk must dedicate itself to bonding. A Monk must dedicate itself to Smiting and buffing physicals with SoH. A Monk must dedicate it's whole bar to healing/protection AND energy management. Now. What looks better? Dorny
What's wrong with SS? (Spiteful Spirit, not Signet of Spirits) :S
And by common PuG builds, you mean "Animate Flesh Golem"? Some lack of detail here...
DigitalFear
Physway>all.
glacialphoenix
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I think the OP is suggesting that the present meta in a PUG situation is viewed as highly unfavourable if one has the fortunate ability to chose 8 players from a pool of experienced players.
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The lack of detail is due to the fact that it's not about the builds themselves. It's the "pug theory" to build-making, and executing them.|
Im still trying to work my way through the idea of "not even half as good as an SS" just trying to work out what kind of mad pug build that would be.
It's possible. And sometimes it's a perfectly decent-looking SS bar, and then you find that the guy can't do anything with it. Or you have the SoS bar, but the rit appears to not realise that attacking spirits ought to be in range of the things they're supposed to be attacking. In any case, I thought several threads established that PUG Meta tends to be stuff that everyone can recognise, and are therefore 'safer' to run.
Windf0rce
I can't think of any area in the game that requires an ER Infuser in place of a Monk. It was debated to death in the ER Infuser thread, because Monks are enough to handle any area and the so called 'infuse spam' is not necessary to keep any decent team up.
Healer's Boon can be ok, if you have a Paragon (Imbagon), then running prot is quite redundant - might as well buff your heals as much as possible (I still prefer running WoH, though). But HB is not bad. Signet of Spirits is insanely powerful and deserves a spot in any/most teams. Everyone is tired, I mean really tired to hear "buffed melees pwns Guild Wars", it's no secret and most know it already. But surprise, not everyone wants to play melee, it is entirely possible to play with a more caster-based team and still clear areas fast enough.
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by Dorny
And by common PuG builds, you mean "Animate Flesh Golem"? Some lack of detail here... |
But yes, a PUG MM would be running something like Animate Flesh Golem or Aura of The Lich- along with 3 different minion summoning skills.
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
Considering the time taken to fix them (you might cause some players to rage, too) you could be halfway through the mission already ...
So you lost someone who isn't a team player?
I PUG whenever possible or at least look for a human partner and found many wonderful people. Crippie its Tom
I don't believe that two ER eles outclasses a well put together dual monk backline. I've played both and swear with the monks.
The Riven
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Originally Posted by Crippie its Tom
I don't believe that two ER eles outclasses a well put together dual monk backline. I've played both and swear with the monks.
Even if the monks can heal/prot just as well as the ER's the added benefit you get from GDW swings it slightly. But like almost everything its all personal preference.
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by The Riven
Even if the monks can heal/prot just as well as the ER's the added benefit you get from GDW swings it slightly.
But like almost everything its all personal preference. Well, a Monk and an ER work very differently. It wouldn't surprise me that you didn't have great ER builds/usage.
The Riven
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Well, a Monk and an ER work very differently. It wouldn't surprise me that you didn't have great ER builds/usage.
wanna try reading my post again tom?
Crippie its Tom
Cuz monks dont have room for GDW right? =D
The Riven
Its unusual to see it on a monks bar in a pug, though it is also rare to see an ER in a pug GDW is nearly always nailed to the bar.
Zodiac Meteor
ER healers and monks are very different.
One you have unlimited energy to spam around, but ER = Shadowform, however if it dies your team get's in trouble. ER infuse don't carry anti hex/condition. ER infuse are at 50% health a lot letting heroes/henchies spam their spells on you. They bond everyone. The enemy AI will always try to target ER infusers. Enchanted, 50% health, holding bonds, weaker armor, it's the AI dream come true.
HigherMinion
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Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor
ER healers and monks are very different.
One you have unlimited energy to spam around, but ER = Shadowform, however if it dies your team get's in trouble. ER infuse don't carry anti hex/condition. ER infuse are at 50% health a lot letting heroes/henchies spam their spells on you. They bond everyone. The enemy AI will always try to target ER infusers. Enchanted, 50% health, holding bonds, weaker armor, it's the AI dream come true. This is why you must be good to play an ER bond/infuser. However if you are observant and make sure you cover ER and cast away from interrupts, etc... Then tell me monks are better. Anyway, is this thread turning into a ER vs Monk thing or is it going to stay on the "pugs need to learn" idea?
The Riven
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Anyway, is this thread turning into a ER vs Monk thing or is it going to stay on the "pugs need to learn" idea?
I would prefer it to stay on topic, but you have touched there upon one reason why monks are "preferred" in the average pug, there is always going to be a backlash to builds that are alternative to what's seen by the majority of players as "good".
Even on this forum where I like to think we have a large base of experienced people there are constant debates over what builds work best, on the servers themselves it sometimes easier to settle for what some would consider second best (or even third). While its nice to find yourself in a very very good pug team, full of people who are familiar with a variety of builds/tactics and have quite a good understanding of the game, the vast majority of people are just casual players who do not read these forums, hell you will be lucky if they even glance at some of the PvX builds.
HigherMinion
Is it just a coincidence most players are running builds from PvX then? problem is some of the "Great" PvX builds are awful. Atleast the variants are, even if the idea is good.
Also, every pug wants to bring Summon Ruby Djinn or Pain Inverter, I see it in every pug; even warriors give it a go... Madness.
glacialphoenix
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
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I mean, yeah, you can go on and on about how PUGs should be better players and appreciate better builds, but what's the point of showing them better builds if they don't have the ability to play them? What's the point of giving the guy a better bar if he's got zero survival instinct? (Admittedly, if that's the case, he'd fail regardless of whatever bar you asked him to run.)
Quote: Originally Posted by Cuilan Because PUGs are "known" for failing simple things (I don't agree with it completely, but that's how they're viewed by some vocal people). This is precisely why people don't bother. If PUGs can fail simple things, why would you trust them with something that is potentially more difficult to play, and spend time and energy correcting them if it's going to be a relatively short mission? You'll never see them again, so most people just settle for 'good enough'. (If you're going into a long mission, sure, take your time - but would you spend all that time preparing for, say, Unwaking Waters, which is the current ZMission? Masters is 15 mins, after all.) For most people, they'll never see these guys again. If by chance you got a good group, it's 'ty all, gj, great team, cya'. If you fail, you join another group, and - especially in Cantha missions - it's not all that much time wasted. Of course you make sure your team's not working against each other, but that's as far as it goes.
Also, if everyone was willing to learn, we probably wouldn't be seeing this thread now.
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Is it just a coincidence most players are running builds from PvX then? problem is some of the "Great" PvX builds are awful. Atleast the variants are, even if the idea is good.
Probably not everyone goes to PvX, but it kind of spreads through the players. Guy A goes to PvX, meets people who have never seen PvX, tells them to run PvX bar. After a while, it becomes a staple. Kind of like, back in pre-nerf Ursan, you'd have people pinging "Run this (Healer's Boon) bar", so after a while, if you were to monk for Ursans, you'd run that bar, even if you'd never laid eyes on PvX in your entire life.
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