Rework Shadow Sanctuary.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Current description:
Assassin allegiance skill.
You are Blinded for 5 seconds. For 10 seconds, you gain 7...9 Health regeneration and +40 armor.

What I propose is a PvE shadow step:
5 energy cost, 1/4 sec activation time, 5 sec recharge.
Shadow step to target creature. All foes in the area of target creature are crippled for 1 ... 5 secs.
All your spells are disabled for 5 ... 2 seconds.

Since the target is a creature, rather than foe or ally, this allows the skill to be used offensively and defensively. I am also aware how obscenely overpowered the idea is - but then again, when you can only use 3 PvE skills at a given time, if a skill isn't really good - you'll never use it. And a self-heal just does not do the trick.

Reformed

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

I actually do use this skill and while it may seem useless at first compare it to Feigned Neutrality and suddenly it starts to look pretty good.

@16 Shadow Art, Feigned is going to give you a net of 140hp (+7 for 10) or 168hp if you are running a +20%.

@0-2 Allegiance, Sanctuary provides the exact same healing power.
@11-12 Allegiance, it provides 200hp (+10 for 10) or 220hp if you are running a +20%.

You could also throw Shadow Refuge into the mix here for comparison but it doesn't have an armor buff associated with it. The 5 second blind, extremely easy to remove, is a much nicer drawback than end-on-hit/skill. I'm probably one of 5 people left in GW who doesn't believe in using the allotted 3 PvE skills. If I am messing around A/ or /A and for whatever reason can't work in Refuge then Sanctuary is it. If they get rid of the lousy aftercast to Shadow Steps in PvE I might change my mind.

impulsion

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2008

Terra Noise [Zraw]

N/A

Shadow Sanctuary is a very useful skill as it is. Buff something that needs buffing.

Beta Sprite

Beta Sprite

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2006

Madison, WI

R/

I've used Shadow Sanctuary in builds in the past, and it's quite nice. If you absolutely need to hit something, there are ways to remove the blind quick (Plague Touch/Antidote Signet). It's fine as it is.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

I am guessing these were solo builds?

MagmaRed

MagmaRed

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2007

Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]

R/

Your description does not match the name of the skill. True, not all skills are named well, but the current skill matches the name quite well. Yours doesn't come close.

Secondly, the cripple isn't terribly useful for 'general' PvE, it sounds more like a farming option. Blind would fit into the skill name better, and still be effective for 'general' play.

And although I do not use (and never have) Shadow Sanctuary, I have seen it used quite a few times. Each time I have seen it used was in a PUG or guild/alliance group, and never did I think the person had a bad build. I questioned the use of a skill that blinds the person using daggers for damage, but I didn't see a problem for the person using it.

Unless you can come up with a reason WHY the skill should be changed, leave it alone.

Warvic

Warvic

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2009

The Netherlands

A/W

1) It's almost the same skill as feigned and the other one.
So a change would be ok
2) It's not bad, it's one of the better self heals so a change is not needed.
3) Your idea looks funny, because you can surpise someone and snare him, so u can attack him.. But u have to wait tho. wich makes it not overpowered. For PvE it's not that good imo.

So I'm not sure about it.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

This is anet, you know they'd rather make PvE splits of every single shadowstep than make one good pve-only skill.

Reformed

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

The skill has zero drawback on a caster. If you run it in a group as a melee chances are good you will have a cleaner of some type which gives you even more healing given some forms of removal. Being forced to take self condition removal/transfer is also not necessarily a bad thing.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed View Post
The skill has zero drawback on a caster.
But not mesmers, they need to wand and stuff while they're recharging and waiting for energy.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagmaRed View Post
Your description does not match the name of the skill. True, not all skills are named well, but the current skill matches the name quite well. Yours doesn't come close.

Secondly, the cripple isn't terribly useful for 'general' PvE, it sounds more like a farming option. Blind would fit into the skill name better, and still be effective for 'general' play.

And although I do not use (and never have) Shadow Sanctuary, I have seen it used quite a few times. Each time I have seen it used was in a PUG or guild/alliance group, and never did I think the person had a bad build. I questioned the use of a skill that blinds the person using daggers for damage, but I didn't see a problem for the person using it.

Unless you can come up with a reason WHY the skill should be changed, leave it alone.
The point of cripple is simple - in HM where every foe's movement speed is increased, skills that increase the players movement speed are a must if you want to be dealing damage in melee. This skill achieves that by:
1. allowing you to reach the target through the SS
2. allowing you to catch up to foes due to them being crippled

Blind, while absolutely decent, is in no way as good as cripple for melee characters.

The farming issue with it is:
1. solo farming - that is somewhat remedied by the spell-disabling clause (which could be even longer for all I care since the point is to promote dagger combat though the snare - I have no issues with the spell-disable lasting for up to 5 secs or even a decreased cripple.)
2. tank'n'spank - this could be real problem though because it would allow players to jump in fast, slow down everything and set the grounds for an AoE nuke. But then again - this is just an improved shadowstep + Grasping Earth (but having a much bigger range and being much more spammable).


The skill changed could actually be any of the crappy PvE skills, but let's be honest - it's hard to get crappier than a PvE only selfheal. Plus reworking SS forces you into a specific class combo which is also a bit of a restriction.

Wuhy

Wuhy

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2008

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
But not mesmers, they need to wand and stuff while they're recharging and waiting for energy.
what. are. you. talking. about.

Xsiriss

Xsiriss

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

It's a dam good self heal for casters that doesn't require any attribute points...it's functionality and useage are also quite different for feigned neutrality.

smilingscar

smilingscar

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

Frontline Legion

Me/

I think it can stay the way it is. While it may seem overly similar to feigned neutrality, keep this in mind:

1. It's the best self-heal in the pve-skill set
2. It requires no specs. My assassin quite enjoys running around with max critical strikes and dagger master, while still having an emergency self-heal. I'd be quite sad to lose it.

MagmaRed

MagmaRed

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2007

Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
The point of cripple is simple - in HM where every foe's movement speed is increased, skills that increase the players movement speed are a must if you want to be dealing damage in melee. This skill achieves that by:
1. allowing you to reach the target through the SS
2. allowing you to catch up to foes due to them being crippled

Blind, while absolutely decent, is in no way as good as cripple for melee characters.

The farming issue with it is:
1. solo farming - that is somewhat remedied by the spell-disabling clause (which could be even longer for all I care since the point is to promote dagger combat though the snare - I have no issues with the spell-disable lasting for up to 5 secs or even a decreased cripple.)
2. tank'n'spank - this could be real problem though because it would allow players to jump in fast, slow down everything and set the grounds for an AoE nuke. But then again - this is just an improved shadowstep + Grasping Earth (but having a much bigger range and being much more spammable).


The skill changed could actually be any of the crappy PvE skills, but let's be honest - it's hard to get crappier than a PvE only selfheal. Plus reworking SS forces you into a specific class combo which is also a bit of a restriction.
There are lots of ways to deal with the buff monsters get in HM for movement speed. I have not seen Dervishes, Warriors, or Assassins complaining that they can't play HM because they can't catch monsters to hit them. If you need a skill to compensate for poor playstyle there are a lot of them. Assassin skills alone include Shadow Prison, Leaping Mantis Sting, Dash, Horns of the Ox, etc., etc., etc. In other words, if you can't figure out how to target and attack something to be effective, make use of the skills we already have. You want to change a skill many people find effective as it is, simply because you can't snare, knockdown, or chase a foe in PvE easy enough?

Axel Zinfandel

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wuhy View Post
what. are. you. talking. about.
Sarcasm. Mesmer skills generally have a long recharge, so when your done using those skills and recovering energy, the only thing you can do is wand people

lern 2 humor

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagmaRed View Post
There are lots of ways to deal with the buff monsters get in HM for movement speed. I have not seen Dervishes, Warriors, or Assassins complaining that they can't play HM because they can't catch monsters to hit them. If you need a skill to compensate for poor playstyle there are a lot of them. Assassin skills alone include Shadow Prison, Leaping Mantis Sting, Dash, Horns of the Ox, etc., etc., etc. In other words, if you can't figure out how to target and attack something to be effective, make use of the skills we already have. You want to change a skill many people find effective as it is, simply because you can't snare, knockdown, or chase a foe in PvE easy enough?
The point of this change would be to create a PvE-only shadow step - a mechanic that is really fun and actually has a point in PvE but can not be experienced fully due to PvP balance issues.
I stated why cripple is a much better option than blind and that's in no way to "compensate for poor playstyle".
I also explained that the reason why I selected Shadow Sanctuary to be remade into this is because the current SS is not only obscenely sub-par, but it's also completely sub-par to what the reworked version would be like.

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

So basically the point is making it an offensive skill with a little defensive usage. Mmmmm , dont see it ; i think the word "sanctuary" is there because of something. I would give it a buff , something like adding "if you are hexed or under a condition when shadow sanctuary ends , this skill recharges 30% faster" .

Giga_Gaia

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2006

Travelling around Tyria, Cantha, and Elona

P/W

How about a PvE version of death's charge - you shadowstep to target (friend/foe/both?) and are healed for 50....250 health.

5e 1/4c 10r

Do I win?

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

Leave it as it is.

1 - What you want to turn it into is a pointless skill.
2 - Making it into a PvE version of Death's Charge is redundant. Assassins are already one of, if not the most, durable classes for general HM PvE.
3 - Shadow Sanctuary is very useful for the Mo/A runner.

Axel Zinfandel

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

I see what you're trying to do: make a lower recharge shadow step for PvE

However, you've messing with a skill that's fine as is to do it :/

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia View Post
How about a PvE version of death's charge - you shadowstep to target (friend/foe/both?) and are healed for 50....250 health.

5e 1/4c 10r

Do I win?
The heal is pretty useless. Plus the recharge is still pretty high - 5 sec recharge would be much better.
I am not sure if I'd replace Wastrels' with DE on a 10 sec recharge.

Reformed

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

That and it's basically the same thing as Ebon Escape. If anything I would like to see them remove the aftercast from Death's Charge in PvE or drop the recharge time to make it practical. They could probably make Beguiling Haze 10/15. It's already great but this would be more forgiving to running attack spam behind it. I could also see them altering a certain other skill to be a shadow step in keeping with it's name and the theme of the attribute line.

MagmaRed

MagmaRed

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2007

Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
I also explained that the reason why I selected Shadow Sanctuary to be remade into this is because the current SS is not only obscenely sub-par, but it's also completely sub-par to what the reworked version would be like.
Really? I haven't seen proof of that, and I have seen people say they like and use the skills as it is. It may be sub-par for how YOU want to use it, but that doesn't mean it has a problem. As noted, Shadow Sanctuary provides an attribute free self heal that is better than any other attribute free self heal, AND is better than most skills using an attribute. Explain how and why it is "obscenely sub-par" and you might get some support, but it isn't viewed as such.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagmaRed View Post
Really? I haven't seen proof of that, and I have seen people say they like and use the skills as it is. It may be sub-par for how YOU want to use it, but that doesn't mean it has a problem. As noted, Shadow Sanctuary provides an attribute free self heal that is better than any other attribute free self heal, AND is better than most skills using an attribute. Explain how and why it is "obscenely sub-par" and you might get some support, but it isn't viewed as such.
You are comparing a PvE-only self-heal in a game where not only you have guys dedicated to keeping you alive but you ALWAYS have those guys with you due to the crappy self-heal options with a skill that would allow the best damage dealers in the game being more potent due to the removal of positioning AND due to ward-size constant cripple?
Seriously?

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

Shadow Sanctuary is a brilliant skill for use by secondaries. A monk or ritualist, for example, could carry it as an emergency in case of extreme pressure.

A ward-sized constant cripple combined with MS/DB is preposterous. And if you did want a skill to do that, you could pick a skill like, I don't know... deadly paradox? And change that skill instead.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk View Post
Shadow Sanctuary is a brilliant skill for use by secondaries. A monk or ritualist, for example, could carry it as an emergency in case of extreme pressure.
In PvE that matters?
A spirit master will not use SS.
And well, you're kinda not running monks these days.
The current SS has no use outside of builds that just don't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk View Post
A ward-sized constant cripple combined with MS/DB is preposterous. And if you did want a skill to do that, you could pick a skill like, I don't know... deadly paradox? And change that skill instead.
Yes, I did express my concerns that the skill is "slightly" insane. And as I mentioned, the length of being unable to cast spells or the length of the cripple could be used to modified to somewhat "balance" it. Heck even the range could go down from "in the area" to "nearby".
Whereas for the idea of modifying a skill that also exists in PvP - I would much rather see those skills be given a new functionality so that they are useful in both modes and keep the things that cause massive issues in PvP to be PvE only - and what better way than with a PvE only skill.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

Meh, I really like the skill as a secondary self heal.

If anything the recharge for existing shadow steps should be adjusted

/notsigned

MagmaRed

MagmaRed

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2007

Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
You are comparing a PvE-only self-heal in a game where not only you have guys dedicated to keeping you alive but you ALWAYS have those guys with you due to the crappy self-heal options with a skill that would allow the best damage dealers in the game being more potent due to the removal of positioning AND due to ward-size constant cripple?
Seriously?
In PvE, as well as PvP, a self heal is important. The Monks have more than 1 person to keep alive, and at times they will be kiting to keep themselves alive. In short, a Monk cannot keep you alive 100% of the time without some help. Proper positiioning plays an important role in that, but a simple self heal to relieve some pressure from the Monk is important as well. With Shadow Steps, positioning becomes even more difficult for most people. Few people are aware of enemy and team positions for PvE play. Yes, that is essential knowledge for PvP, and they learn it fast. But the general PvE player does not learn that most of the time. So when you jump across the screen with a shadowstep and are out of range of your Monk, a self heal will allow you time to reach the range the Monk can heal you (or for the idiots, the time for the Monk to reach you).

If you want a large snare, there are some already. Dervish has access to AoE cripple and Ele has access to a ward and spells like Deep Freeze. Or if you want, take Fevered Dreams and use Leaping Mantis, Black Mantis, etc. to spread it around.

I still don't see a reason to change Shadow Sanctuary. You say it is under powered, but I don't see you proving that, and I do see other people disagreeing with you.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagmaRed View Post
In PvE, as well as PvP, a self heal is important. The Monks have more than 1 person to keep alive, and at times they will be kiting to keep themselves alive. In short, a Monk cannot keep you alive 100% of the time without some help. Proper positioning plays an important role in that, but a simple self heal to relieve some pressure from the Monk is important as well. With Shadow Steps, positioning becomes even more difficult for most people. Few people are aware of enemy and team positions for PvE play. Yes, that is essential knowledge for PvP, and they learn it fast. But the general PvE player does not learn that most of the time. So when you jump across the screen with a shadowstep and are out of range of your Monk, a self heal will allow you time to reach the range the Monk can heal you (or for the idiots, the time for the Monk to reach you).

If you want a large snare, there are some already. Dervish has access to AoE cripple and Ele has access to a ward and spells like Deep Freeze. Or if you want, take Fevered Dreams and use Leaping Mantis, Black Mantis, etc. to spread it around.

I still don't see a reason to change Shadow Sanctuary. You say it is under powered, but I don't see you proving that, and I do see other people disagreeing with you.
People are arguing that they are using the skill, and hopefully NOT that it's good. And even so, it's only being used in areas which don't really matter.

Whereas for the rest of your post, yeah ... no.

MagmaRed

MagmaRed

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2007

Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]

R/

Read posts #2, #4, #13, and #14. It looks like I saw people saying the skill was good, and I even saw some reasons/data to back that up. But since you can't see what is in front of you (people use the skill, people find the skill to be useful) and can't provide a reason to change it, I'll stop posting.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

/not signed.

Sins don't need yet ANOTHER teleport offensive "support" spells, we have enough of that as it is. In the hand of newbies it just promote MORE "naruto" play style (teleport in, grabbing all the aggro, teleport out, send all the aggro to monk ), and more experienced players have better options to mass cripple without a glass canon messing with their aggro. What SS needs to be reworked is a more viable tanking/defense skill that can be kept up indefinitely. Just lowering the recharge or make it reapply on critical hit or other conditions is better IMO.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagmaRed View Post
Read posts #2, #4, #13, and #14. It looks like I saw people saying the skill was good, and I even saw some reasons/data to back that up. But since you can't see what is in front of you (people use the skill, people find the skill to be useful) and can't provide a reason to change it, I'll stop posting.
I'll be blunt here - if a player thinks that the current version of SS is a good skill, that just means that that player is bad.
Now, I completely understand not caring about running the best option - and I am fine with that.
But that doesn't make this skill magically good.