Guildwars Botting. READ!
Curo
Well this thread did something: I didn't know that there were PvP bots until I read this. What am I going to do about it? I'm going to go eat lunch.
lemming
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Originally Posted by The Drunkard
I'd love to see some evidence to back up that statement. Most of the updates i've seen concern fixes for gvg/ha or meta shake-ups, and pvers had to deal with the changes.
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Lykan
Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by Curo
Well this thread did something: I didn't know that there were PvP bots until I read this. What am I going to do about it? I'm going to go eat lunch.
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Also, I'll have some of that lunch
The Drunkard
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Originally Posted by lemming
The vast majority of these "fixes" have only served to make the metagame worse.
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aeronox
Hey, I think that's enough about the PvE-vs-PvP-balances discussion.
Bots in PvP is big. This isn't a simple macro that uses keypresses and clicks, ultimately just for gold. It's having real, instantaneous (well, 1/4 sec anyway) effect on human players, and will have a lasting effect on PvP at all levels - if nothing is done a.s.a.p.
Yeah it's not exactly the sky falling down, but Guild Wars should still be treated by ArenaNet as their baby. Baby's getting sick!
Have we had official feedback yet?
Thank you to GWG Mods for allowing this thread to persist long enough for a public response.
Bots in PvP is big. This isn't a simple macro that uses keypresses and clicks, ultimately just for gold. It's having real, instantaneous (well, 1/4 sec anyway) effect on human players, and will have a lasting effect on PvP at all levels - if nothing is done a.s.a.p.
Yeah it's not exactly the sky falling down, but Guild Wars should still be treated by ArenaNet as their baby. Baby's getting sick!
Have we had official feedback yet?
Thank you to GWG Mods for allowing this thread to persist long enough for a public response.
lemming
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Originally Posted by The Drunkard
The point I was trying to make was that Anet's attempt to balance their game with respect to pvp has affected Pvers, not how Anet can't balance their game properly. While this would've been acceptable when only proph was released (since the "end-game" was pvp), when you have three campaigns and 7/8 elite areas you can't just balance one arena and expect everyone to be happy with it.
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Originally Posted by The Drunkard
If you want exposure, I'd reccomend trying to inform people ingame.
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Originally Posted by The Drunkard
As for a solution, I think Anet doesn't have a big enough team to sucessfully juggle the bot problem with all the other things it has to deal with.
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tmakinen
While I haven't studied PvP bots nor observed them in action I see a fundamental problem with any efforts to get interrupt bots banned, and it's the same as with FPS aimbots: while it is rather easy to spot 'greedy' bots with inhuman abilities, the issue becomes murky if the performance of the bot is properly tuned down so that it only augments players' capabilities within reasonable bounds. At that point you can't really tell the difference between a very sharp player and a poor player with a bot. The most important factors in performance - reaction time and consistency - can both be adjusted into believable ranges, even on the fly so that the performance can be cranked up a bit where it counts the most while still overall staying within reasonable limits.
The best way to handle the issue would be to change the game so that mechanics which favor bots over humans would become less important concerning the outcome of a fight. If a simple bot can do a task better than a human then the task should not be worth much.
The best way to handle the issue would be to change the game so that mechanics which favor bots over humans would become less important concerning the outcome of a fight. If a simple bot can do a task better than a human then the task should not be worth much.
Fril Estelin
Gaming, especially at a competitive, is about pushing the boundaries of "skill", so it's normal that average player+bot and skilled players are difficult to differentiate at a server level, provided the bot dev does his work and hides intelligently the bot actions (although maybe a statistical analysis per account could help to spot this?).
It's no surprise that we've seen in the past players complaining of that while they were probably facing very skilled opponents, I read from PvPers that some pro-rupters are really that good.
Unfortunately there's only one solid method for spotting it, at the client level, and forunately Anet hasn't taken the route of starting to trust the client...
(I see Cliff Spradlin here, hello!
)
It's no surprise that we've seen in the past players complaining of that while they were probably facing very skilled opponents, I read from PvPers that some pro-rupters are really that good.
Unfortunately there's only one solid method for spotting it, at the client level, and forunately Anet hasn't taken the route of starting to trust the client...
(I see Cliff Spradlin here, hello!
)
Ravious
I wonder if it would be possible to throw in junk information without too much hardware performance decrease. I mean the bot reads the .dll, and if the program is spouting out random junk as well as the true skill, I dunno...
This saddens me though. How awesome would it have been if someone had used the .dll for good things... like parsing PvP matches, etc.
This saddens me though. How awesome would it have been if someone had used the .dll for good things... like parsing PvP matches, etc.
Fril Estelin
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Originally Posted by Ravious
I wonder if it would be possible to throw in junk information without too much hardware performance decrease. I mean the bot reads the .dll, and if the program is spouting out random junk as well as the true skill, I dunno...
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| This saddens me though. How awesome would it have been if someone had used the .dll for good things... like parsing PvP matches, etc. |
The Drunkard
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Originally Posted by lemming
That's just as much a short end of the stick as PvE being affected collaterally by PvP updates.
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Originally Posted by lemming
What, go down our friends lists?
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My guess is that Anet is thinking "botting has always been a problem in this game, so there's no real rush for them to deal with it, eh?"
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Originally Posted by lemming
That's ridiculous.
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lemming
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Originally Posted by The Drunkard
Are you naive enough to believe that posting this on guru is going to cause an uproar by itself? Anet rarely responds to anything on this forum because of all the flame and QQ, and there is only a fraction of people on this forum that even play. Again, I've given my reccomendation to try and spread the word be that by talking to other guilds/alliances or posting on other forums to make it apparent that this is a problem that should be dealt with quickly.
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And what 'other forums' are better than Guru for raising awareness of issues?
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Originally Posted by The Drunkard
My guess is that Anet is thinking "botting has always been a problem in this game, so there's no real rush for them to deal with it, eh?"
Why? Again, I can only speculate Anet's motivation atm and it seems to me like the security and delayed skill balances are what Anet's trying to work on. They don't have a very large team, so it's not like they can fix everything at once |
AexIndex
It's fun that Anet doesn't even bother to respond in this thread. How do you mean we don't care...
The Drunkard
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Originally Posted by lemming
Your average guru poster is probably more aware better connected than the average person on your friends list.
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Originally Posted by lemming
I can only assume that you either don't understand or don't care about the magnitude of the problem created by widespread interrupt botting.
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You see, I have a rare ability of addding one and one together to draw a conclusion. First, have you seen Anet comment on this thread about this issue being acknowledged at all? I haven't. Second, have you noticed a pattern that when a hot issue (ie New years day fiasco) is brought up that Regina usually posts that they are looking into it? It's not hard to guess Anet doesn't really care about this issue right now, whether I like it or not doesn't matter because I do not own or work at Anet.
the_jos
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Originally Posted by The Drunkard
.... It's not hard to guess Anet doesn't really care about this issue right now, whether I like it or not doesn't matter because I do not own or work at Anet.
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Guess what. Action was already taken in the Jan 7 update. Might not have solved the entire problem but to me it's an indication that A-net is aware of the problem and caring. The first descriptive mention of this particular botting on QQ was on Jan 5 I think, patch or at least some action on Jan 7.
That's fast, either A-net was already aware of the problem and took some time to develop a solution or they made an emergency solution.
I'd give A-net some time. If I were a PvP (or even PvE) player using the particular bot I would have stopped using the moment the patch was out. Who knows what the patched client is sending to A-net, perhaps data so they can pick out the abusers and ban them (EULA breach, you know)....
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by Ravious
This saddens me though. How awesome would it have been if someone had used the .dll for good things... like parsing PvP matches, etc.
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As for botting, I'd say it's premature to conclude that ANet doesn't care about the issue. It would be fairer, and more consistent with recent events, to conclude that ANet is glacially slow in responding to current events due to work backlog.
Fril is spot on about cheating AND about the problems with detecting it. I had a similar conversation on Tuesday about it (in an academic context). Morally, cheating is cheating. But functionally, cheating that I cannot detect is not cheating. All the enforcement authority (here ANet) can do is catch what they can and leave the remainder up to higher authorities (if they exist).
Fril Estelin
I understood Ravious' comment more like "if only these programming skills would have been put to good". Kind of having a Linus Torvalds creating GW tools that do good for the PvP community 
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the_jos is right, even more so considering that it was just after the holidays. I'm sure Anet and NCsoft have been monitoring network activities closely for 2 weeks.
.the_jos is right, even more so considering that it was just after the holidays. I'm sure Anet and NCsoft have been monitoring network activities closely for 2 weeks.
Bob Slydell
It dosent just help you bot. There are other fun things graphics.dll can do for your game than bot, that you would_never_get_caught_for.
Sarevok Thordin
Well I had a read through a certain "thread" and yeah, it looks like this is the the horse has bolted now, knowledge of this bot has gotten out.
The level of customisation that can go into the bot can give it certain error ratios to try and emulate human behaviour to a degree, i.e not PDing every heal out there and make it virtually undetectable. It's sad to see that people suck so bad they have to goto this length to win, oh well, now I won't feel as bad for losing more now.
The level of customisation that can go into the bot can give it certain error ratios to try and emulate human behaviour to a degree, i.e not PDing every heal out there and make it virtually undetectable. It's sad to see that people suck so bad they have to goto this length to win, oh well, now I won't feel as bad for losing more now.
Regulus X
Players are botting in GW1?!?! NO WAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!????????
*grabs popcorn*
ow8, Anet's afk...
*munches on sum moar popcorn*
Any1 know where we can all get bots so we can fire 'em up, since Anet doesn't care? LOLOLOL j/k j/k...
OR AM I?!?!?! -Stewie Griffith
*grabs popcorn*
ow8, Anet's afk...
*munches on sum moar popcorn*
Any1 know where we can all get bots so we can fire 'em up, since Anet doesn't care? LOLOLOL j/k j/k...
OR AM I?!?!?! -Stewie Griffith
deluxe
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Originally Posted by Regulus X
Players are botting in GW1?!?! NO WAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!????????
*grabs popcorn* ow8, Anet's afk... *munches on sum moar popcorn* Any1 know where we can all get bots so we can fire 'em up, since Anet doesn't care? LOLOLOL j/k j/k... OR AM I?!?!?! -Stewie Griffith |
It's like talking with a bunch of people, and then there's this guy with downs syndrome screaming he wants cake. < You.
You might think you're "trolling", but all you accomplish is that you look like a retard when ever you post something.
Bob Slydell
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Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin
Well I had a read through a certain "thread" and yeah, it looks like this is the the horse has bolted now, knowledge of this bot has gotten out.
The level of customisation that can go into the bot can give it certain error ratios to try and emulate human behaviour to a degree, i.e not PDing every heal out there and make it virtually undetectable. It's sad to see that people suck so bad they have to goto this length to win, oh well, now I won't feel as bad for losing more now. |
superraptors
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Originally Posted by byteme!
As far as I'm concerned PvP has lost it's credibility. Don't know who the cheaters are and who isn't. We will never know. No one will. To think we PvE'ers went through so much bullshit because Anet was trying to balance PvP.
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Zebideedee
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| It dosent just help you bot. There are other fun things graphics.dll can do for your game than bot |
capashen
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Originally Posted by Divine Ashes
I'm not personally advocating a witch hunt for any pvp bots. Something much better than this could possibly done. If you read the qq forums topic, there is a lengthy discussion as to possible solutions that could eradicate these bots altogether. Whether these methods are reasonable, easy, or feasible at all I'm not sure.
Also, people still seem to be confusing these pvp bots for computers that play the entire game for you. In this case, they are not. All this is is a program that recognizes the pixel changes in a particular skill and reacts for the player automatically by using one of the interrupt skills on your bar. You still play through the match otherwise. |
Junato
Now let's play the game role reversal.
If we were a genius programmer in Anet that combat issues of hacking in guild wars. How would we combat botting?
First off, I am no genius programmer, but I am still going to do this.
So, if botting is basically macroing with a program to initiate sets of advanced functions from keyboard output. I would make a program that monitors the time delay of one skill in a build to counter the opposing skill from the opposing player. Then have other functions working along to monitor the time delay of skills being used and movements . However, this whole process from my program only monitors a player for 1 minute. If the time delays more than 1-2 second it could be argued that the player is actually not a bot. And if the time delays are less than 99% of a second it would mean it is a bot.
So, those are my conditions based on monitoring. Once a bot is discovered (I know this may seem intrusive) my program well set the randomization of the keys used to play the game. So the movement keys, for example the (d) key (which makes your character turn right) turns left and numbers 1 to 8 in the skill build will be randomized so skill placed in slot 2 will be activated when you press 7 and so forth.
Once my program executes all this I would love to place a lovely note on the middle of the screen with this written:
"Let's make this game harder for you
It seems that you have really good reflexes,
yet how fast can you realize that your keys
have been randomized? Best of luck or just
quit."
What do you guys think?!?
If we were a genius programmer in Anet that combat issues of hacking in guild wars. How would we combat botting?
First off, I am no genius programmer, but I am still going to do this.
So, if botting is basically macroing with a program to initiate sets of advanced functions from keyboard output. I would make a program that monitors the time delay of one skill in a build to counter the opposing skill from the opposing player. Then have other functions working along to monitor the time delay of skills being used and movements . However, this whole process from my program only monitors a player for 1 minute. If the time delays more than 1-2 second it could be argued that the player is actually not a bot. And if the time delays are less than 99% of a second it would mean it is a bot.
So, those are my conditions based on monitoring. Once a bot is discovered (I know this may seem intrusive) my program well set the randomization of the keys used to play the game. So the movement keys, for example the (d) key (which makes your character turn right) turns left and numbers 1 to 8 in the skill build will be randomized so skill placed in slot 2 will be activated when you press 7 and so forth.
Once my program executes all this I would love to place a lovely note on the middle of the screen with this written:
"Let's make this game harder for you
It seems that you have really good reflexes,
yet how fast can you realize that your keys
have been randomized? Best of luck or just
quit."
What do you guys think?!?
pablo24
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Originally Posted by Junato
Now let's play the game role reversal.
If we were a genius programmer in Anet that combat issues of hacking in guild wars. How would we combat botting? First off, I am no genius programmer, but I am still going to do this. So, if botting is basically macroing with a program to initiate sets of advanced functions from keyboard output. I would make a program that monitors the time delay of one skill in a build to counter the opposing skill from the opposing player. Then have other functions working along to monitor the time delay of skills being used and movements . However, this whole process from my program only monitors a player for 1 minute. If the time delays more than 1-2 second it could be argued that the player is actually not a bot. And if the time delays are less than 99% of a second it would mean it is a bot. So, those are my conditions based on monitoring. Once a bot is discovered (I know this may seem intrusive) my program well set the randomization of the keys used to play the game. So the movement keys, for example the (d) key (which makes your character turn right) turns left and numbers 1 to 8 in the skill build will be randomized so skill placed in slot 2 will be activated when you press 7 and so forth. Once my program executes all this I would love to place a lovely note on the middle of the screen with this written: "Let's make this game harder for you It seems that you have really good reflexes, yet how fast can you realize that your keys have been randomized? Best of luck or just quit." What do you guys think?!? |
Those bots also don't press keys, they perform the actions directly in GW's process calling the same functions GW normally would when you press a key.
karlik
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Originally Posted by Zebideedee
I use a mod to enhance graphics with a graphics.dll file in it, should I be worried? I never PvP but would hate to get a ban because A-Net thought I was cheating by using it.
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First - no, it won't get you banned.
Second - it doesn't work anymore. I noticed today someone else wearing my armor and it looked like crap. Am I correct the attempt to control bots broke graphics.dll and hi-res, but the bots are still running?
Junato
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Originally Posted by pablo24
Those bots also don't press keys, they perform the actions directly in GW's process calling the same functions GW normally would when you press a key.
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If that's the case, would it be posible within the scripts differentiate how players play and bots play? I don't know if anyone played runescape, but what they did is they made a program to counter bots by assessing whether players are doing the same things over and over repetitively and drop the user into a mini quest.
So just that I am clear Anet is not considering anything like this?
evenfall
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Originally Posted by Junato
So your saying there is no way anyone can make a program to monitor such things to counter bots?
If that's the case, would it be posible within the scripts differentiate how players play and bots play? I don't know if anyone played runescape, but what they did is they made a program to counter bots by assessing whether players are doing the same things over and over repetitively and drop the user into a mini quest. So just that I am clear Anet is not considering anything like this? |
The current bot is tampering with the gw client process. An easier way is to have a background thread that checks for the presence of foreign libraries inside gw client.
If found, the client can unload the library or d/c the player, or maybe even flag the account for botting.
Agar
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Originally Posted by snoozer80
This game really sucks.. When Anet will realize that?
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Dallcingi
I like how my account didn't get suspended cause the guy that hacked my account botted to cavalon and made himself a 105 SS monk... im impressed.
He must have used one of these haha.
He must have used one of these haha.
pablo24
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Originally Posted by Junato
So your saying there is no way anyone can make a program to monitor such things to counter bots?
If that's the case, would it be posible within the scripts differentiate how players play and bots play? I don't know if anyone played runescape, but what they did is they made a program to counter bots by assessing whether players are doing the same things over and over repetitively and drop the user into a mini quest. So just that I am clear Anet is not considering anything like this? |
Monitoring them with a background process would do nothing because it would be reverse engineered and emulated/disabled within a day.
Junato
Out of all the genius programmers some decided to make bots in guild wars...
The only way I guess to stop bots is if Anet decides to get help from VAC they are already with the Valve Corporation. In fact, I wouldn't be so surprised if they are already in development with VAC to counter bots in GW and GW2.
The only way I guess to stop bots is if Anet decides to get help from VAC they are already with the Valve Corporation. In fact, I wouldn't be so surprised if they are already in development with VAC to counter bots in GW and GW2.
capashen
@junato : in dll we trust
Paradise Lost
Alright heres food for thought. The same people that brought us this interrupt bot have now created this.
An opposing party window.
So yep, using this you can see your opponents party window. How obvious is it that Anet needs to do something about this. VERY!
These are pictures i grabbed from QQ, from a thread by someone also trying to make people aware of this. Apparently people are even selling this on ebay now.
Dead game is really really dead.
An opposing party window.
So yep, using this you can see your opponents party window. How obvious is it that Anet needs to do something about this. VERY!
These are pictures i grabbed from QQ, from a thread by someone also trying to make people aware of this. Apparently people are even selling this on ebay now.
Dead game is really really dead.
The Drunkard
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Originally Posted by Paradise Lost
snip
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keli
bad security programing leads to these shits all over,
maybe anet should ban all 3rd party programs, even textmod....
maybe anet should ban all 3rd party programs, even textmod....
aeronox
wow. makes you wonder what else is possible...
energy indicators?
area-sized radar?
enemy skillbars with recharges?
auto-spike catching?
enchantments/stances on target?
location camera? (lol, Guild Hall Security)
energy indicators?
area-sized radar?
enemy skillbars with recharges?
auto-spike catching?
enchantments/stances on target?
location camera? (lol, Guild Hall Security)