Why do we hate grind, but accept farming? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

09 Jan 2010 at 22:00 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

People really don't know what they want in a video game. They may think they know, but they don't. They will go as far as to tell and scream about what they think they want, when it isn't what they really want.

I do. I want the game I bought in 2005. Not saying they should revert the updates, that would be stupid. I want the "skill>time" and not "one skillbar + consumables > time > skill" as it is now.

QueenofDeath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2009

10 Jan 2010 at 00:37 - 42

Quote:

Someone told me that I need rank 10, or I can't get into groups. It wasn't my choice. I get no reward...

This is where you failed as you believe too much of what "someone" told you. It wasn't 100% so. Just because someone says jump off a cliff would you do it?

) I got into groups just fine without even having Ursans. If you're a crowd follower then yeah you HAVE to do what OTHERS say not what the game requires or allows. If you're part of the speed clear group then yep you have to follow that crowd and build but there is nothing in the game requiring those builds. Players used them because they are lemmings instead of role playing gamers.

PuppyEater

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2005

I'm on the left...

Guilds? Where we're going we don't need guilds...

R/Rt

10 Jan 2010 at 02:28 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by animal fighter

first off,
no grind is necessary in gw. at all. period.

you grind for flashy armor/expensive weapons to make your character look better
but they are by no means necessary

so all grind is by choice

My tyrian made ranger in elona begs to differ...

AKB48

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2008

みやき町

Mo/A

10 Jan 2010 at 06:15 - 44

We grind because it's really is one of the core ideas MMOs are build around. you create a character, then what do you do? stuff, like quests and missions. however, quests and missions are usually a bad place to get that flashy sword you always wanted, so what do you do? any idiot then knows to kill ONLY the monster(s) that drop that flashy sword, since that or kill monsters with a good cash dropping rate gives the player the fastest possible time to get that sword. Why were UW sc so popular? since it provided a too fast output of ectos, which the current gw society uses as an add for any item over the price of 100k. So many people can get the items they want in less the time. we grind because we want stuff fast, we want items hot, and we want them N-O-W.

We humans are a race that hates waiting, though we do praise patience as a virtue.(lol what a bunch of hypocrites we are)

Motoko

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2008

Dallas, Texas

Zero Quality [zQ] /[LaG]/[USA]/[iQ]

A/E

10 Jan 2010 at 08:39 - 45

Why do we hate lung cancer but love smoking cigarettes?

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

10 Jan 2010 at 08:53 - 46

One might simply say that 'grind is required, farming is not', which would explain the hatred for grind.

That is slightly incorrect in Guild Wars, where there is little to no grind required. The MAIN reason people hate grind but not farming, is because;

Grinding gets you;
- titles
- fancy armor

Farming gets you;
- extra cash

People prefer farming because they get something out of it (money) but hate grind because they 'have' to do it in order to get their flashy stuff.

N1ghtstalker

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2007

E/

10 Jan 2010 at 12:18 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

Why do we hate lung cancer but love smoking cigarettes?

cuz i rather die happily instead of living a boring life without having fun

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

10 Jan 2010 at 20:18 - 48

I think the problem is the type of grind. Farming is choice, where as the other types of grinds, the ones people hate like having to make X level to enter Y area and spending Z days doing so, are forced on us.

It is surprisingly easy to make gold just by wandering around, killing stuff, so to go out and farm to make the same amount in a short time is a choice, which is why it is more accepted.

Well, that's just how I see it anyway

agrios

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

South America

Naked Stalkers of America[Nude]

W/

11 Jan 2010 at 00:06 - 49

Farming is always optional.

But having to kill the same mob gazillions of times for some time just to get to the next level, a.k.a grinding, its f*'in stupid.

Risus

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2007

56min UW HM post-2/25 I win

FDR

A/

11 Jan 2010 at 01:15 - 50

The loot system is set up perfectly at the moment. There is no way to exploit it, no way to cheat it, only hope for a good drop. I personally know EXACTLY how it works, which I would not like to reveal as its some pretty controversial information (which would completely kill any current "theories" on the system). I can, however, PROVE to you I know how it works with a pretty mindblowing demonstration (just PM me in game Risus the Assassin, I have to use items which I have a low stock of and are quite hard to get, therefore I charge 20k if you want me to prove it, not a scam btw u can screen and send to ANet if it is). Back on topic, the drop system is fine and sturdy, you shouldn't be guranteed a rare item after a certain amount of time because then its not a rare item. Prices are based on rarity, rarity is based on the chances of it dropping, a guranteed drop means rarity goes down which means prices goes down which means more crying about how its too cheap now that you finally got one to drop for you.

Clone

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

11 Jan 2010 at 03:43 - 51

First, I think there's a group that would say they aren't a fan of either. I'm certianly in that group.

Second, I think part of the difference comes from how much Anet is doing to goad you in a certian direction. They sometimes nerf farming activity. Though, their behavior here isn't all that consistent, leaving some forms of farming untouched for long times. Either way, there's never been a sigificant thrust by Anet to make you fill your storage box with ecto. Most things purchased from NPCs are fairly reasonable, leaving a small market of super-rare pricey stuff, only different from the normal stuff in skins, not stats.

The stance on grind seem much clearer: Anet is all for it. Eye of the North gave you a big empty room to fill up with titles from your grinding glory, and makes sure you go through that room a number of times in completeing that story, giving you a sense that you can be behind the pack in Guild Wars 2 long before it even comes out.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

11 Jan 2010 at 04:15 - 52

I wasn't aware there were people who thought grind and farming were separate.

Zodiac Meteor

Imma Firin Mah Rojway!

Join Date: Aug 2008

At the Mac Store laughing at people that walk out with anything.

E/Mo

11 Jan 2010 at 04:57 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I wasn't aware there were people who thought grind and farming were separate.

They are separate.

Grinding = Required to continue
Farming = Cash and exotic items

You grind to get stronger, beat tougher foes in PvE and PvP.
You farm to get fame and respect, more time means more skill.

Why else would you buy the Chaos Gloves, Voltaic Spear, Obby Armor? It's not because they are stronger.

This is why I love Guild Wars, you don't have to murder 1,000 small animals to get to the next level in order to kill a powerful boss.

Shasgaliel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

[bomb]

11 Jan 2010 at 12:10 - 54

I still not see where are these places where people are forced to grind in gw. Even these 10k kurzick/luxon can be obtained by doing quests on the way without any need to repeat anything same with ss points. People want a title it is THEIR choice to do some work and get it. They repeat stuff for money and they repeat stuff for title. If they want to do a title and ways to do it are not fun sorry just do something else there is really no obligation to get the titles... Remove titles then "grind" is over.....

killerbot3009

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Oct 2007

the beaster

the Gold Fish [GOLD]

W/

11 Jan 2010 at 12:19 - 55

tbh i enjoy grinding titles, its more fun to grind titles than it is to fail UW with some noob Pugs.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

11 Jan 2010 at 12:58 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

Why do we hate lung cancer but love smoking cigarettes?

Exactly this.

Grind is something that is forced upon you. Farming is something you (in this case) choose to do.

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

E/

11 Jan 2010 at 13:08 - 57

I would tend to define grind as 'a tedious task that you must do repeatedly in order to be able to do what you actually would want to do'. Pretty much anything can be grind if you are goal oriented and only do things with the end reward in mind. Conversely, nothing is grind as long as you genuinely enjoy what you are currently doing.

When I farm, it's like fishing - an enjoyable activity in itself (and if you wonder, the value is in having an excuse to not do much anything at all) and not a means to achieve anything in particular, so it's not grind. Another player farming the very same spot may only do it with the sole intention of getting the required amount of cash/ecto for a pair of chaos gloves to show off at Kamadan, and will find it a hideous grind.

Since 'we' are not a hive mind, there's more than enough room for all kinds of contradictory opinions.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

11 Jan 2010 at 13:17 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

They are separate.

Grinding = Required to continue
Farming = Cash and exotic items

Grind is the process of repeating a boring action continually for some form of personal gain.

Farming is the process of repeating a boring action continually for some form of personal gain.

You don't NEED to complete rep titles, for example, to continue. They aren't required. But they sure as hell are grind. They're also farming!

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

11 Jan 2010 at 13:53 - 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Grind is the process of repeating a boring action continually for some form of personal gain.

Farming is the process of repeating a boring action continually for some form of personal gain.

You don't NEED to complete rep titles, for example, to continue. They aren't required. But they sure as hell are grind. They're also farming!

lol

Is farming grind? Sure it is, but it's not forced upon you. You can choose to farm, or you can choose to not farm and still be successful in the game, at least insofar that completion of a piece of content depends on your personal skill just as much as it does for a guy who farms 5 hours per day (at least almost, admittedly, rep titles matter a little bit).

If on the other hand you define success as being able to prance around Kamadan dressed in your FoW armor whilst being followed around by the newest most expensive minipet, then yes, you are forced to farm.

ne33us

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2005

Athens, Greece

11 Jan 2010 at 13:56 - 60

My versions of what is Grinding / Farming

Grinding.
It is the process to level up a character when the (bad designed) game doesn't give the player alternative ways to enjoy the game's storyline while leveling up.
So, NO CHOICE for the player here.

Farming.
It is the process to achive objectives other than leveling up.
Those objectives are usually not related with the game's storyline, they are optional, so the player has the CHOICE to either farm or not.

Shasgaliel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

[bomb]

11 Jan 2010 at 14:32 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by ne33us

My versions of what is Grinding / Farming

Grinding.
It is the process to level up a character when the (bad designed) game doesn't give the player alternative ways to enjoy the game's storyline while leveling up.
So, NO CHOICE for the player here.

Farming.
It is the process to achive objectives other than leveling up.
Those objectives are usually not related with the game's storyline, they are optional, so the player has the CHOICE to either farm or not.

Ok if I someone is doing UW 60 times a day it is farming or griding? Does the fact that it is extremely boring and frustrating for this player changing the classification?

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

11 Jan 2010 at 14:47 - 62

But why would he do UW 60 times per day if it was that frustrating? It's still his choice. And choosing that just gives him more cash, it doesn't make him better. Many other games like this one makes you grind stuff just so you can be better at some other stuff. And that was one of the complaints over UB if you recall. Some people wanted to join in on the fun of farming DoA, but before they could, they'd have to first grind margonites in that rumbling desert snail, and then they'd have to grind buffaloes and dragon ghosts outside Olafstead. Yes it was also a choice, but a choice that had to be taken in order to play through some other content. And that makes the difference.

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

11 Jan 2010 at 16:23 - 63

Someone who does the UW 60 times a day and doesn't like doing it is a moron and should commit suicide.

Arduin

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

R/

11 Jan 2010 at 16:29 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Some people wanted to join in on the fun of farming DoA, but before they could, they'd have to first grind margonites in that rumbling desert snail, and then they'd have to grind buffaloes and dragon ghosts outside Olafstead. Yes it was also a choice, but a choice that had to be taken in order to play through some other content. And that makes the difference.

You could very well use Ursan and clear DoA without max Norn rank. Get guildies/alliance, make your own team, hide your rank... So that wouldn't make it grinding, because it is not obligatory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Someone who does the UW 60 times a day and doesn't like doing it is a moron and should commit suicide.

I'd say people clear the UW for the endchest, not because it is 'fun'. If the endchest was removed, would people still SC UW?

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

11 Jan 2010 at 16:35 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

I'd say people clear the UW for the endchest, not because it is 'fun'. If the endchest was removed, would people still SC UW?

Then they're a bunch of retards. I play a game because I want to have fun, not to get some lame-ass item that has no value in real life anyway.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

11 Jan 2010 at 16:39 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

You could very well use Ursan and clear DoA without max Norn rank. Get guildies/alliance, make your own team, hide your rank... So that wouldn't make it grinding, because it is not obligatory.

Cool story bro

I log on and I see my guild has 1 player online and that player happens to be myself. No, you are wrong, a lot of people can't rely on social contacts, they must PUG. And then they are subject to the horrid arbitrariness of other players - such as me. I regularly set up PUG teams myself back in the Ursan days and even though I didn't demand rank 10/8 (norn/LB), I wouldn't accept someone with say 2/2, simply because such a player would be a weak link (and I certainly wouldn't accept someone who hid their rank, no matter what that rank might have been).

All that is beside the point though. I merely said that that was one of the complaints against UB. I didn't say that the complainers were right.

Besides, nothing in a game is obligatory. It's not as if you have to play.

Kenzo Skunk

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2009

11 Jan 2010 at 17:04 - 67

Grinding is for titles - Wisdom is a grindfest, Treasure hunter as well, such as many others. Also doing the same quests and dungeons again and again but with another character is still grinding to me. Basically doing things that have been done before.
Farming on the other hand is still as repetitive as is grind, but the results are visible right away. And you do it for ca$h and the excitement when that particular drop shows up on your screen.
In my case i rarely farm anymore, except for the occasional uw planes run. It`s still thrilling to see that ecto drop

Even after 4 years...

Tullzinski

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Trying to stay out of Ryuk's Death Note

N/R

11 Jan 2010 at 17:40 - 68

Farming is growing food, grinding is what my garbage disposal does.

Shadowspawn X

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fellowship of Champions

R/E

11 Jan 2010 at 18:41 - 69

Grind is doing the same thing over and over to advance in the game. Titles are not grind because you do not need to do them to advance in the game. However some titles are like treasure hunter, alliance titles and EoTN reputation titles are so repetitive if they were mandatory they would be grind to the highest degree, but the fact that you don't have to do them makes them not grind even though they have grindy characteristics.

Farming is distasteful as well. If someone wants to spend hours in the troll/rapter cave killing the same creatures over and over more power to them, but most people complete the content of the game and move on. GW seems to be about farming these days because only a farmer can stick around doing the same stuff over and over.

EternalTempest

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

United States

Dark Side Ofthe Moon [DSM]

E/

11 Jan 2010 at 18:49 - 70

To me farming is grinding.

The one thing I love about guildwars is to get max stat weapons and mods is easy compared to any other online game I've played.

However, there a lot of stuff I want unlocked in the hall of monuments (which again doesn't impact my ability in combat in gw1) that I will grind and/or farm for.

tealspikes

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2009

11 Jan 2010 at 21:11 - 71

Grinding is doing something over and over again to achieve a goal regardless of how fun or boring it might be. (Killing 50 boars to complete the quest or repeating each element the periodic table until you have memorized it for your chem exam are both examples of 'grind')
Farming is an activity in RPG's where the goal is to collect a certain thing (currency, exp, rare item).
Farming often requires grind.

Why do we hate grind, but accept farming?

1. Because Guild Wars does not force you to farm anything to beat the campaign. Before Nightfall farming was mainly for cosmetic purposes. The game is designed so that simply by doing the missions and primary quests, you will have enough exp to level up and enough gold to keep your equipment up to date. Of course you could argue that having to kill mobs over and over again to complete a mission is grinding.

2. Many people here love grinding and don't know it or won't admit it. Anet recognizes this and their latest expansion EotN is meant to meet the needs of the farming community.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

11 Jan 2010 at 21:44 - 72

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

lol

Is farming grind? Sure it is, but it's not forced upon you. You can choose to farm, or you can choose to not farm and still be successful in the game, at least insofar that completion of a piece of content depends on your personal skill just as much as it does for a guy who farms 5 hours per day (at least almost, admittedly, rep titles matter a little bit).

If on the other hand you define success as being able to prance around Kamadan dressed in your FoW armor whilst being followed around by the newest most expensive minipet, then yes, you are forced to farm.

I don't define grind as something forced. I definite it as repetitive gameplay. Hence the difference between forced grind, as seen in WoW, and optional grind, as seen in Guild Wars.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

12 Jan 2010 at 00:00 - 73

Um...farming IS grinding. Only difference is the word "grinding" has been given to the type of farming that is required to beat the game. I personally think both farming and grinding are retarded, but some people find fun in the strangest things and I can't take that away from them.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

12 Jan 2010 at 01:01 - 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Um...farming IS grinding. Only difference is the word "grinding" has been given to the type of farming that is required to beat the game. I personally think both farming and grinding are retarded, but some people find fun in the strangest things and I can't take that away from them.

Though I agree with your message, two things are not the same if they are different from each other.

HuntMaster Avatar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2007

Around

Pillar's of Earth [ROCK]

W/

12 Jan 2010 at 08:22 - 75

If it wasn't for grinding/farming, there would be nothing to do on guildwars. Pvp is worthless due to many broken aspects which leaves pve, which is dead. Guildwars has passed its expiration date, but fans enjoy riding a rotting corpse, obviously. Truthfully, these forums are the most exciting aspect of guildwars now, which is a very sad (and mockingly funny) truth.

Shadowspawn X

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fellowship of Champions

R/E

12 Jan 2010 at 19:42 - 76

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

If it wasn't for grinding/farming, there would be nothing to do on guildwars.

It depends on how broad a definition you give farming. Pvp and elite areas are all there is to do in GW after you have done the storyline a million times. Some people call it a form of farming and some don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Guildwars has passed its expiration date, but fans enjoy riding a rotting corpse, obviously. Truthfully, these forums are the most exciting aspect of guildwars now, which is a very sad (and mockingly funny) truth.

This made me lol. I just thought about it and I spend way more time reading the forums than playing GW.

QueenofDeath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2009

12 Jan 2010 at 20:51 - 77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Someone who does the UW 60 times a day and doesn't like doing it is a moron and should commit suicide.

Someone that suggests someone should commit suicide should be put in jail!

(also and banned from this forum)

QueenofDeath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2009

12 Jan 2010 at 20:57 - 78

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Um...farming IS grinding. Only difference is the word "grinding" has been given to the type of farming that is required to beat the game. I personally think both farming and grinding are retarded, but some people find fun in the strangest things and I can't take that away from them.

I disagree that farming is grinding. One can farm and do it for fun and nothing else. That is what I do. I decide on play in area(s) I want to play/farm in and I go there and farm till it becomes boring.

Grind is when something becomes boring and repetitive and MUST be done for a reward or growth. Key word there is MUST. Not everyone that farms MUST farm. Everyone that wants a title a piece of special design equipment or to add something to HOM MUST grind though.

So no farming isn't grinding 100%.

Sword Hammer Axe

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2008

Look up.

Kurzick Conflagration Unit [KCU].

W/

12 Jan 2010 at 23:50 - 79

I neither hate or love any of them. I farm if I'm in deep need of quick money (close to never) and I grind for a few titles (EotN ones).

I don't do anything I don't think is fun though. I'm continuously surprised that people actually bore themself with a game they willingly paid money for and no one forces them to play

just my opinion. You can all think what you want about it.

Shuuda

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guildless

Me/

13 Jan 2010 at 13:08 - 80

Humans are capable of holding contradictory attitudes.