The PvE/PvP split exists because due to the differences between how the two formats are played, certain skills are inherently more powerful in one format or the other. However, the same is true of some of the primary attributes, so let's fix that.
(Note that all of these changes are for PvE; no changes would be made in PvP)
Divine Favor - no change needed.
Strength - For each rank of Strength, you gain 1% armor penetration on attack skills and 1% armor penetration on normal attacks with warrior weapons.
Expertise - no change needed.
Soul Reaping - For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way twice per 15 seconds. (we all know why)
Fast Casting - Fast Casting decreases the casting time and aftercast delay of your Spells. Additionally, each rank in this attribute decreases your Signet activation times by 3%. (this would go a long way to making mesmers more viable in PvE; aftercast delays would be reduced using the same formula that determines reduced cast times)
Spawning Power - no change needed
Leadership - no change needed.
Critical Strikes - no change needed.
Mysticism - You gain 1 energy per 3 ranks of Mysticism whenever an enchantment ends on you. Additionally, your attacks steal 1 health per rank of Mysticism. (gives dervishes a much-needed offensive buff to help them compete with warriors and assassins, while giving them a slight defensive boost that they also desperately need)
Energy Storage - For each rank of Energy Storage, your maximum energy increases by 3, and your skills gain 2% armor penetration per rank of Energy Storage. (will go a long way towards making Elementalists more viable as nukers)
Discuss/Criticize.
PvE/PvP Split for Primary Attributes
reaper with no name
Cuilan
Yes, let's help the ritualist profession solo better.
And what does "energy storage" have to do with armor?
And what does "energy storage" have to do with armor?
reaper with no name
Absolutely nothing. But Elementalists are always complaining that they can't do any damage in HM. And what does the ability to accurately target vital organs have to do with gaining energy? What does the ability to lead effectively have to do with gaining energy?
Call this an attempt at a crowd-pleaser suggestion (however doomed to failure it may be).
Call this an attempt at a crowd-pleaser suggestion (however doomed to failure it may be).
Gift3d
could fix a lot of things and be a good change. not talking about your suggestions in particular, but the concept is a good idea.
then anet would be able to grow some balls and make expertise only affect ranger skills in pvp.
then anet would be able to grow some balls and make expertise only affect ranger skills in pvp.
Zahr Dalsk
I support the Elementalist changes, because it will help all the idiots who're running elemental damage anyways. It won't make them better players but it will make them more useful party members.
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Soul Reaping - For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way once per 10 seconds. (we all know why)
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These changes are just too much. Rits don't need any more buffing right now. Spirit Spam is ridiculous and doesn't need to be made any stronger.
The change to Energy Storage is really crude.
On Mysticism; Dervishes don't suffer that much. Offensively they're in the same league with Warriors, but don't get the utility stuff Warriors do (DSlash, Earthshaker etc). Dervishes still get the biggest damage boost in the game (AoHM) and I would prefer my warriors or sins didn't take a scythe (well, I don't mind W/Ds so much).
Offensively they only really fall behind Assassin's.
I really don't like the recharge clause you've added to FC. Builds with AP will still use AP and builds without won't be significantly improved with the increased spec. All it does is potentially promote the use of the Mes primary in speed clears as nukers.
J I L T
Armor penetration for level 30 fasting casting double damage ele bosses? Jesus Christ
Your mysticism buff is overpowered. 1 energy per rank is WAY too much and 1 health stealing is basically a constant order of the vampire so that's too much as well. Plus your comment on dervs needing more defense is inaccurate because they have tons of defensive and healing skills.
Spawning power- instead of armor make it damage reduction in the same way that armor of the unfeeling works so spirits like shelter or agony last longer.
Mesmer skills that take a long time to recharge are like that because they'd be too powerful otherwise. Just because people don't like it doesn't mean it's a good idea to make them recharge faster.
Your mysticism buff is overpowered. 1 energy per rank is WAY too much and 1 health stealing is basically a constant order of the vampire so that's too much as well. Plus your comment on dervs needing more defense is inaccurate because they have tons of defensive and healing skills.
Spawning power- instead of armor make it damage reduction in the same way that armor of the unfeeling works so spirits like shelter or agony last longer.
Mesmer skills that take a long time to recharge are like that because they'd be too powerful otherwise. Just because people don't like it doesn't mean it's a good idea to make them recharge faster.
REDdelver
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
And what does "energy storage" have to do with armor?
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The concept is interesting.
With respects to the ele and ES armor pentration, it would have to be a nonstacking bonus though. If a skill already has armor pentration, then the ES bonus wouldnt stack.
I think 2% per rank would be way too high. NM would be just rediculous amounts of dmg with 25% armor penetration dmg across the board. (assuming you have 13 in ES and a cap of 25%)
Think if rodgorts does 120 to a 60 armor target? Then it would do over 180+ ?? If my brain is working right atm. I think thats way high.
Soul reaping is fine really. Its taken several hits as is. If you really think it needs messed with maybe minions only give half energy return when dying as compared to foes/party members. Just off the top of my head, not a seriously thought out idea.
Spawing doesnt need a buff. Communing's Armor of unfeeling covers dmg taken by spirits as is.
Still thought the whole split idea might be viable.
Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by J I L T
Armor penetration for level 30 fasting casting double damage ele bosses? Jesus Christ
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It's there for a reason.
Chthon
While I agree with the notion of splitting primary attributes, you're suggestions are terrible.
Wait what? Soul Reaping should be reverted to its original function in PvE. Not nerfed further. Were you paying any attention at all when the various nerfs came through the pipeline and the reasons for them?
Also, for that matter, did you even try to play a necro for couple weeks or so it was 1 shot in 5 sec? It was utterly unplayable.
While I agree that FastCast is utter crap in PvE, this isn't going going to make mesmers viable. There's a deep problem with the skillset that a recharge time boost won't fix. (Case in point, AP mesmers have basically zero recharge on all skills, and they still rely almost exclusively on PvE skills since the mesmer lines are so weak.)
Spawning needs a buff, but not this. Spirits already border on overpowered.
That's actually not half bad. It makes zero sense from a lore perspective, but it solves a couple of problems with the class.
Hell no. HM ele monsters already do very frightening damage. Now you want to give them 40% armor penetration too? While I agree that eles seriously need some across-the-board armor penetration to not suck in HM, the proper place for that is on one of their PvE skills.
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Soul Reaping - For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way once per 10 seconds. (we all know why)
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Also, for that matter, did you even try to play a necro for couple weeks or so it was 1 shot in 5 sec? It was utterly unplayable.
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| Fast Casting - Fast Casting decreases the casting time of your Spells. Additionally, each rank in this attribute decreases your Signet activation times by 3%. Also, the recharge times of your mesmer skills are reduced. (this would go a long way to making mesmers more viable in PvE; recharge times would be reduced using the same formula that determines reduced cast times) |
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| Spawning Power - For each rank of Spawning Power you have, creatures you create (or animate) will have 4% more Health and +1 armor. Additionally, weapon spells you cast last 4% longer. (it's not much, but many feel that this attribute still isn't worth taking, and I can't think of another way to buff it without overpowering it) |
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| Mysticism - You gain 1 energy per rank of Mysticism whenever an enchantment ends on you. Additionally, your attacks steal 1 health per rank of Mysticism. (gives dervishes a much-needed offensive buff to help them compete with warriors and assassins, while giving them a slight defensive boost that they also desperately need) |
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| Energy Storage - For each rank of Energy Storage, your maximum energy increases by 3, and your skills gain 2% armor penetration per rank of Energy Storage. (will go a long way towards making Elementalists more viable as nukers) |
Olle
ok, lets say u buff mysticism...
at 16 myst : 16 Lifesteal per hit.. add in Avatar of Grenth=21 Hp per hit
then a vamp wep (3-5 hp per hit) + an IAS
U would Never need to think about ur health again, cuz ull steal to much hp back
so, /Notsigned
they are gg atm.
at 16 myst : 16 Lifesteal per hit.. add in Avatar of Grenth=21 Hp per hit
then a vamp wep (3-5 hp per hit) + an IAS
U would Never need to think about ur health again, cuz ull steal to much hp back
so, /Notsigned
they are gg atm.
Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by Chthon
Hell no. HM ele monsters already do very frightening damage. Now you want to give them 40% armor penetration too?
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reaper with no name
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
This is much more of a nerf than I think you realise.
These changes are just too much. Rits don't need any more buffing right now. Spirit Spam is ridiculous and doesn't need to be made any stronger. The change to Energy Storage is really crude. On Mysticism; Dervishes don't suffer that much. Offensively they're in the same league with Warriors, but don't get the utility stuff Warriors do (DSlash, Earthshaker etc). Dervishes still get the biggest damage boost in the game (AoHM) and I would prefer my warriors or sins didn't take a scythe (well, I don't mind W/Ds so much). Offensively they only really fall behind Assassin's. I really don't like the recharge clause you've added to FC. Builds with AP will still use AP and builds without won't be significantly improved with the increased spec. All it does is potentially promote the use of the Mes primary in speed clears as nukers. |
In a best case scenario dervishes are about 20 dps behind warriors when it comes to the scythe. More versus assassins. I've posted the math somewhere in the dervish section, but I'm too lazy to go find it. This would almost close the gap with scythe warriors.
Eh, fine, I'll remove the SP thing. Personally, I was only trying to curry favor with the people who want another SP buff with that part.
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| That's actually not half bad. It makes zero sense from a lore perspective, but it solves a couple of problems with the class. |
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Originally Posted by kajusbonus
ok, lets say u buff mysticism...
at 16 myst : 16 Lifesteal per hit.. add in Avatar of Grenth=21 Hp per hit then a vamp wep (3-5 hp per hit) + an IAS U would Never need to think about ur health again, cuz ull steal to much hp back so, /Notsigned they are gg atm. |
Let's say for a moment you've got that and mystic vigor on you in an ideal scenario (bunch of enchantments on you, hitting 3 foes, etc). You'd be getting around 75+60 per swing. So 135 health on a guy who has 90 armor with windwalker's insignias. That's still not nearly as much as a monk can heal you for.
Besides, self-healing is supposed to be one of the class's strengths, but at present it's so weak there's little point in bothering.
Cuilan
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Originally Posted by J I L T
Mesmer skills that take a long time to recharge are like that because they'd be too powerful otherwise. Just because people don't like it doesn't mean it's a good idea to make them recharge faster.
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Zodiac Meteor
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Protective Spirit. Protective Spirit. Protective Spirit.
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I don't want my monk taking 150% more damage against a afflicted elementalist.
J I L T
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
It's there for a reason. |
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Originally Posted by Cuilan
Did you not see all the buff mesmer threads and posts around this forum? Also, what is this it and do you know why people don't like it?
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reaper with no name
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Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor
That works! For 2 people...
I don't want my monk taking 150% more damage against a afflicted elementalist. |
Great. I guess that proves I'm on to something.
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Originally Posted by J I L T
Aoe damage and lets just assume that every now and then ele bosses aren't alone and they might be with a necro or mesmer with enchantment removal that just might be a possibility Plus ele bosses should be harder for everyone because eles don't want to bring cracked armor and are complaining that it's harder to kill foes in hard mode?
It doesn't matter how big the mob is that doesn't make it right. The "it" I was talking about was long recharges and I don't know what people don't like about it because I use mesmer henchmen and heroes pretty often. Granted I don't play the class but I don't have to play the class to know practically maintaining vor or diversion is ridiculous even pve. |
And no, it's not ridiculous. At least not compared to some of the other stuff out there. Even with this, VoR would barely be better than SS (and then only against casters), and diversion still wouldn't be great because it is single target.
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Necromancers need it. I can't think of a more overpowered class when it comes to versatility. Minions, MoP, Necrosis, SS, and the ability to function fairly effectively using almost any other caster's skills? Most classes don't even get half as much good stuff as that.
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I do not think you fully appreciate the difference between 3 triggers in 15 seconds and 1 in 5 seconds, or perhaps the difference between 1 in 10 and 2 in 20.
Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by J I L T
Aoe damage and lets just assume that every now and then ele bosses aren't alone and they might be with a necro or mesmer with enchantment removal that just might be a possibility
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AoE damage? Spread out. This shouldn't even be an issue.
It's like you're actively rejecting the idea of making the game require a bit of thought. There are already bosses like this in the game, such as Lushivahr the Invoker; the bonus armour penetration would simply help turn otherwise unthreatening bosses into ones like this, which is a good thing.
_Nihilist_
Strength: Add the armor penetration to all attacks, not just attack skills. Bonus damage from skills is already armor-ignorning, so really, you'd just be giving armor penetration to the base weapon damage from auto-attacks.
reaper with no name
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
SR is overpowered, yes. However reducing it to your proposal will pretty much kill Minion Masters. SR is pretty much solely balanced around minions.
I do not think you fully appreciate the difference between 3 triggers in 15 seconds and 1 in 5 seconds, or perhaps the difference between 1 in 10 and 2 in 20. |
Sir Cusfreak
I'm all for major mechanics changes in Primary attributes, and the idea of PvE/PvP split for primary lines is a good one.
The exact details can be worked out, but on a basic level I definitely /sign.
Some of the suggestions here are good, some need some tweaking, but overall, I say good call.
The exact details can be worked out, but on a basic level I definitely /sign.
Some of the suggestions here are good, some need some tweaking, but overall, I say good call.
Axel Zinfandel
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Originally Posted by _Nihilist_
Strength: Add the armor penetration to all attacks, not just attack skills. Bonus damage from skills is already armor-ignorning, so really, you'd just be giving armor penetration to the base weapon damage from auto-attacks.
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Also, the AP on energy storage is mixed. They need it, but not on ES. meanwhile, Intensity sits in the corner all "Me, please?"
J I L T
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Cover enchants (remember those?), or spike the necro / mesmer first.
AoE damage? Spread out. This shouldn't even be an issue. It's like you're actively rejecting the idea of making the game require a bit of thought. There are already bosses like this in the game, such as Lushivahr the Invoker; the bonus armour penetration would simply help turn otherwise unthreatening bosses into ones like this, which is a good thing. |
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Because mesmers are generally mechanically inferior.
And no, it's not ridiculous. At least not compared to some of the other stuff out there. Even with this, VoR would barely be better than SS (and then only against casters), and diversion still wouldn't be great because it is single target. |
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Originally Posted by J I L T
Plus vor is aoe if the target dies your hex is still doing damage to something unlike ss.
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/signed for PvP/PvE Primary split
I think a little more work and thought needs to go into the exact details though...while I agree with some of your ideas...and love the ES idea (I am an ele at heart...) It would be OP in my opinion I agree with the idea...I just think there may be better ways to deal with the issues that eles have damagewise.
Lariv
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Soul Reaping - For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way twice per 15 seconds. (we all know why)
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Fast Casting - Fast Casting decreases the casting time of your Spells. Additionally, each rank in this attribute decreases your Signet activation times by 3%. Also, the recharge times of your mesmer skills are reduced. (this would go a long way to making mesmers more viable in PvE; recharge times would be reduced using the same formula that determines reduced cast times)
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Mysticism - You gain 1 energy per rank of Mysticism whenever an enchantment ends on you. Additionally, your attacks steal 1 health per rank of Mysticism. (gives dervishes a much-needed offensive buff to help them compete with warriors and assassins, while giving them a slight defensive boost that they also desperately need)
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Energy Storage - For each rank of Energy Storage, your maximum energy increases by 3, and your skills gain 2% armor penetration per rank of Energy Storage. (will go a long way towards making Elementalists more viable as nukers)
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reaper with no name
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Originally Posted by yamazaru
I'm fine with this, but it is a very big nerf to one of the only reasons Necromancers are used at all, in my opinion.
Doesn't fix the problem of Mesmers. It's not their primary that is awful, it's the way their skills are used in PvE. They have no true PvE skills. You might not realize how imba this really is. Patient Spirit might help you. . . Cast it for 5e, assume 12 Mysticism, and regain 12e. That's a net gain of 7e. So 26% armor penetration? I'm not sure how this adds up with other armor penetration skills, but you could, theoretically, have a 51% armor penetration skill. Sure, it'd give Elementalists some damage, but I think it's too much. |
Necromancers would still be the best class for minions (higher death magic) and MoP (higher curses), at the very least.
Oh, shit. I meant to have the energy gain for mysticism be the same as it is now. Thank you for pointing that out. *runs off to fix*
Lariv
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
The skills that have armor penetration tend to be in air magic, which is usually single target.
Necromancers would still be the best class for minions (higher death magic) and MoP (higher curses), at the very least. Oh, shit. I meant to have the energy gain for mysticism be the same as it is now. Thank you for pointing that out. *runs off to fix* |
The problem with the Necro fix would mean that they wouldn't be able to run their bars efficiently. The way you have it would mean that Necro would be restricted down to MM only. Take Mesmer, for example. I like to cast fast, so I pick primary Mesmer to fast cast. Say I want mad energy in PvE without having to waste a couple of skill slots, I take Necro.
Your welcome for the Dervish point-out!
Shayne Hawke
Good lord, what a silly idea. Skill splits were already bad enough, attribute splits would just be bonkers.
X Dr Pepper X
Too controversial. The real problem is attributes being useless due to poorly made skills and concepts- tactics, wilderness survival, illusion magic, motivation, etc. Attributes need to be made well.
For example
Mysticism: Gain 1 energy per 4 ranks, 1 health per 1 rank when any stance, enchant, or weapon spell ends. Forms, basic enchants, energy management, self heals are a part of this attribute.
Earth Prayers: Defensive/tanking skills with dmg mitigation, dodging, weakness, blinding, and some AoE damage. Defensive and offensive tanking.
Wind Prayers: Needs to be totally renovated. Maybe a healer that can compete with monks. Or single targetable party member buffs that trigger on things like crits, dodges, misses and offer unique things like IAS, IMS, degen, life stolen, regen, healing, energy reduction, etc.
Scythe: Hit stuff.
Instead of poorly made skills thrown in random attributes, skills would have common uses. And not every skill needs to be made viable, they'res just too many to try and balance.
For example
Mysticism: Gain 1 energy per 4 ranks, 1 health per 1 rank when any stance, enchant, or weapon spell ends. Forms, basic enchants, energy management, self heals are a part of this attribute.
Earth Prayers: Defensive/tanking skills with dmg mitigation, dodging, weakness, blinding, and some AoE damage. Defensive and offensive tanking.
Wind Prayers: Needs to be totally renovated. Maybe a healer that can compete with monks. Or single targetable party member buffs that trigger on things like crits, dodges, misses and offer unique things like IAS, IMS, degen, life stolen, regen, healing, energy reduction, etc.
Scythe: Hit stuff.
Instead of poorly made skills thrown in random attributes, skills would have common uses. And not every skill needs to be made viable, they'res just too many to try and balance.
Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by J I L T
Skills that remove multiple enchantments remember those?
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And even in such a situation, you can simply make sure that particular enemy is your second target (or first, if the group has no healer) making it unlikely that they'll get it off more than twice (at most).
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Originally Posted by J I L T
And jacking up boss damage doesn't add anymore thought because all the counters you gave are exactly what everyone already does. Spread out? Ok fair enough but wait people use h/h for a lot of content because surprisingly you can't always find people.
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What I'm sensing here is that there are people who object to the idea of any change that makes Hard Mode, you know... hard.
reaper with no name
Of course, these people are also forgetting Pain Inverter. With that, the extra damage dealt by monster Elementalists would become a weakness. 
The problem with buffing Strength that way is that it would make scythe warriors do even more damage, defeating the purpose of the mysticism change.
Unless...The autoattack AP only affected warrior weapons. Yeah, that would work.
Strength: For each rank of Strength, you gain 1% armor penetration on attack skills and 1% armor penetration on normal attacks with warrior weapons.
As for Intensity, I don't deny that it would also work. However, skill changes are outside the scope of this suggestion.
Also, Mesmers. How about having FC affect aftercast delays instead of recharge times? Since the constant aftercast delay currently limits the benefits of high FC, making it affect that as well should encourage Mesmers to invest more into it.
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Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel
Thiiiiis! <3
Also, the AP on energy storage is mixed. They need it, but not on ES. meanwhile, Intensity sits in the corner all "Me, please?" |
Unless...The autoattack AP only affected warrior weapons. Yeah, that would work.
Strength: For each rank of Strength, you gain 1% armor penetration on attack skills and 1% armor penetration on normal attacks with warrior weapons.
As for Intensity, I don't deny that it would also work. However, skill changes are outside the scope of this suggestion.
Also, Mesmers. How about having FC affect aftercast delays instead of recharge times? Since the constant aftercast delay currently limits the benefits of high FC, making it affect that as well should encourage Mesmers to invest more into it.
Tenebrae
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
What I'm sensing here is that there are people who object to the idea of any change that makes Hard Mode, you know... hard.
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The existance of counters to something overpowered doesnt make it less overpowered , for example non spell ench removals < SF. Its just like changing Decapitate to :
Lose all energy and all adrenaline and you deal +600 unblockable damage. If target doesnt die , you regain half of your max energy and 1.... 7 adrenaline.
Following your logic it would be fine because .... you can blind target , ye sure.
Energy Storage has nothing to do with AP , there are already some Ele bosses that kills 60-70 armor chars in 1-2 hits , adding AP to them is just a nonsense excuse for "i want my ele to deal more damage for free in HM" .
Zahr Dalsk
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Originally Posted by Tenebrae
Energy Storage has nothing to do with AP , there are already some Ele bosses that kills 60-70 armor chars in 1-2 hits , adding AP to them is just a nonsense excuse for "i want my ele to deal more damage for free in HM" .
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2. But making these bosses stronger is what I see as the primary benefit, because it helps make HM more difficult and such bosses require a bit of planning and build adjustment.
UnChosen
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
1. I don't use my elementalist and still wouldn't if this change went through.
2. But making these bosses stronger is what I see as the primary benefit, because it helps make HM more difficult and such bosses require a bit of planning and build adjustment. |
If anything they should remove the ridiculous armor from monsters in HM instead of adding extra penetration to ele spells. Just add more HP instead so that it doesn't become too easy.
reaper with no name
<--- has suggested that very thing before in the past, only to have it go down in flames with absolutely zero support from anyone. 
Shriketalon
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Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X
Wind Prayers: Needs to be totally renovated. Maybe a healer that can compete with monks. Or single targetable party member buffs that trigger on things like crits, dodges, misses and offer unique things like IAS, IMS, degen, life stolen, regen, healing, energy reduction, etc.
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If Earth Prayers is in-their-faces offensive tanking, make Wind Prayers into a Point Blank Buffing attribute.
So you might have Attacker's Insight, which reduces the energy cost for your attack skills and all attack skills of adjacent allies. Or Guiding Hands, which makes the next attack for you and all adjacent allies unblockable. Healing, likewise, for whomever is nearby, etc.
Makes the dervish able to serve a support role while still on the frontline, by doing his normal frontline work. His focus would be much more concentrated than a paragon, but still not single targeting, thus giving him sort of an Aura role.
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Originally Posted by UnChosen
HM is already far harder than necessary for the vast majority of the player base. The SF nerf is more than enough, don't chase away any more of the people I play with, tyvm.
If anything they should remove the ridiculous armor from monsters in HM instead of adding extra penetration to ele spells. Just add more HP instead so that it doesn't become too easy. |
Reverend Dr
I honestly don't care at all about PvE, but would something like this actually make the game more attractive?
Reformed
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Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
I honestly don't care at all about PvE, but would something like this actually make the game more attractive?
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